The following message is from MichaelAnne Guido.
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In a message dated 10/29/2006 9:12:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
Therav3 writes:
pro anima domini Rege David et Comitis Henrici et Rege Malcolmi et pro
anima patris mei Walteri filii Alani et pro anima mea et pro anima
sponse mee Eve et omnium antecessorum meorum
Dear John,
I may be able to help a little with the dates you mention. This is all
I have pertaining to your last posting. I am abstracting the Latin
passages.
The above states:
'for the soul of king David and earl Henry and king Malcolm and for the
soul of my father Walter son of Alan and for the soul of my wife Eve
and all my ancestors'.
Generally the current monarch was presented either as ' pro salute
rege.....' or 'pro salute anima rege.......' meaning for the weal
[safety] of king...... or for the safety of the soul of king.....
Hugh de Normanville who witnessed the charter can be dated to the reign
of William I of Scotland as he witnessed a charter before 1177 for the
king and in 1200 he and his wife Alina de Berkley granted land to
Melrose Abbey:
Liber Sancte Marie de Melros Munimenta Vetustiora Monasterii
Cisterciensis de Melros, Tomus Primus, Edinburgi, MDCCCXXXVII:
Pages 79-80:
Carta H. de Normanville de Morhus.
Omnibus sancte matris ecclesie filiis tam presentis quam futuris Hugo
de Normanville et Alina uxor eius salutem. Sciatis nos dedisee et
concessisse et hac carta nostra confirmasse Deo et ecclesie Sancte
Marie de Melros et monachis ibidem Deo servientibus pro animabus David
et Malcolmi Regum Scottie et Henrico Comes et pro salute domini nostri
Willemi Rege Scottie et Alexandri filii sui et Comes David fratris
Rege et pro animabus nostris et patrum nostrorum et matrum et omnium
antecessorum et successorum nostrorum terram de Kelvesete et de
Faulawe...................
'To all the sons of holy mother church now and future, Hugh de
Normanville and his wife Alina [send] greetings. Be it known that we
give, grant and by our charter confirm to God and the church of St.
Mary of Melrose and the monks there serving God for the souls of David
and Malcolm kings of Scotland and earl Henry and for the safety of our
lord William, king of Scotland, and Alexander his son and earl David
brother of the king and for our souls and [those of] our fathers and
our mothers and all our ancestors and successors the land of Kelvesete
and of Faulawe.........'
The information I have on the marriage date for Avelina daughter of
Alan fitz Walter to Duncan, earl of Carrick is from Barrow:
The Anglo-Norman Era in Scottish History, The Ford Lectures delivered
in the University of Oxford in Hillary Term 1977 by G.W.S. Barrow,
F.B.A., Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1980:
Page 68:
The first of the Stewarts to acquire Bute seems to have been Alan,
Walter I's son and heir, around 1200, about the time that his daughter
Avelina --named after her grandmother Avelina de Hesdin--- was married
to Duncan of Carrick, apparently without the king's consent.
Footnote: Chron. Howden, iv.145. The grant of Kingarth may have been
due partly to Alan's desire to appease the king's wrath. See the
Paisley Register #15 (grant of the church of 'Kengaif', i.e. Kingarth,
in the isle of Bute, with the parish of the whole island, by Alan the
Stewart, 1198 X 1204).
The charter Barrow refers to is:
Registrum Monasterii de Passelet, Cartas Privilegia Conventiones alique
Munimenta Complectens, 1163-1529, edited by Cosmo Innes, Bannatyne
Club, Edinburgh 1832:
Page 15:
Confirmatio de Fultone, et donatio ecclesie et capellarum de Bote, per
cartam Alani filii Walteri, fundatoris. [Folio viii ca. 1204]
The relevant portion of the charter Barrow cites in his note is:
'Sciant presentes et futuri, quod ego Alanus filius Walteri, dapifer
Regis Scotie, ......pro anima regis David et pro anima regis Malcolmi
et pro anima patris Walteri et matris mee Eschene, et pro salute mei
ipsius et heredum meorum, dono, concedo et hac mea carta confirmo
eidem domui de Passelet, et monachis ibidem Deo servientibus,
ecclesiam de Kengaif in insula de Bote, cum omnibus capellis et tota
parochia eiusdem insule,....'
'Be it known now and future that I Alan son of Walter, steward of the
king of Scotland.......for the soul of king David and for the soul of
king Malcolm and for the soul of my father Walter and my mother
Eschene, and for my safety and also of my heir, give, grant and by my
charter confirm to the same house of Paisley, and the monks there
serving God, the church of Kengaif in the island of Bute, with all
chapels and [the] total parish of the same island.......'
I do not have the citation from Howden at hand.
I hope this helps.
Best wishes,
MichaelAnne
Post by John P. RaviliousSunday, 29 October, 2006
Dear MichaelAnne,
Many thanks for looking at that charter of William de Ruthven;
as you say, it clearly shows that Tippermuir went via Walter fitz
Alan (de Ruthven) to the Ruthven family, so the portrayal in Scots
Peerage is correct, at least to a point.
The chronology of the Stewarts (or fitz Alans) ca. 1150-1200
may help in resolving one issue, whether Eva (1st wife of Alan fitz
Walter, the Steward) was the mother of the issue, or all the issue,
of Alan fitz Walter. He was married to Eva sometime before 1165,
and determining how long before may be critical. Malcolm IV was
King of Scots at the date of the following charter, so we know at
the earliest it could date from May 1153, but no later than
Malcolm's death ['Willelmus rex' not being named in the charter],
' Carta Alani filii Walteri de tofto in Renfru et Reti.
Universis sancte matris ecclesie filiis et fidelibus Alanus
filius Walteri salutem. Sciant me pro anima domini Rege David et
Comitis Henrici et Rege Malcolmi et pro anima patris mei Walteri
filii Alani et pro anima mea et pro anima sponse mee Eve et
omnium antecessorum meorum concessisse dedisse et hac carta
mea confirmasse Deo et ecclesie Sancte Marie de Neubotle et
monachis ibidem Deo servientibus unum plenarium toftum illum
scilibus qui proximus est gardino meo ex occidentali parte in
villa de Renfru..........' [1]
I am searching for additional biographical details re: Alan's
son Walter. Concerning his daughter Avelina, she was married in
November 2000 to Duncan, earl of Carrick [2]. Duncan was born
ca. 1170 according to Andrew MacEwen: given his parents being
married ca. 1169 (also per A. MacEwen), this seems quite
reasonable, and following on Duncan's grant in 1191 (without
consent of a guardian) to Melrose, it would appear he was of
age in 1191 [3]. The likelihood is that Avelina was younger
than Duncan, esp. given the marriage customs of the age - in
1200, we would expect she was no older than 20 (and a 'spinster'
at that, if she was). Most likely, she was born between 1175
1185, with the greatest likelihood of say 1180-1184.
A. If the charter of Alan fitz Walter was given in 1165,
and Eva was herself aged say 16 to 20 at that time,
she would have been born say 1145-1149. If she was
Avelina's mother, she would have been aged between
say 31 and 39 at the time of Avelina's conjectured
birth - not unheard or impossible.
B. If the charter of Alan fitz Walter was given somewhat
earlier, say 1155, Eva would likely then have been
aged 16 to 20 at least at that time - born say
1135-1139. If she was Avelina's mother, she would
probably have been aged between 41 and 49 at the
time of Avelina's birth (conjectured ca. 1180-1184).
This ranges from less likely to virtually impossible.
That Eva was the mother of Avelina (wife of Duncan of Carrick)
appears to be possible, but uncertain. Further documentation
concerning Alesta of Mar as (1) a 2nd wife of Alan fitz Walter,
and (2) as the mother of Avelina, Walter, or any of the issue of
Alan fitz Walter, is clearly important. Should anyone have
further evidence on the matter, that would be most welcome.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Registrum S. Marie de Neubotle, Abbacie Cisterciensis Beate
Virginis de Neubotle Chartarium Vetus 1140-1528 (Cosmo
Innes, ed. Bannatyne Club, Edinburgh, 1899) pp. 145-146,
courtesy MichaelAnne Guido.
[2] Richard Oram, The Lordship of Galloway, p. 133.
[3] Chronica de Mailros, pp. 100-101, fol. 24b.
Post by John P. RaviliousDear Tim, et al.,
The following message is from MichaelAnne Guido. My response to
MichaelAnne will follow.
Cheers,
John
Dear John,
As I mentioned to you previously I am not working on the Stewart line
so I was unaware of Charter #125 of Scone abbey until you mentioned
it. This charter confirms that 'Walterus filius Alani' was indeed a
Confirmacio Carte Walteri filii Alani a Willielmo de Rothuen terre de
Tubermor et piscarie de Carnis.
Omnibus Christi fidelibus presens scriptum visuris vel audituris
Willelmus de Rotheuen dominus euisdem eternam in domino salutem.
Noveritis me cartam domini Walteri filii Alani bone memorie patris mei
Deo et Ecclesie Sancte Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis de Schona et
canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris ..........'Universis
sancte matris ecclesie filiis Walterus filius Alani salutem. Noverit
universitas vestra me concessisse et hac mea carta confirmasse Deo et
ecclesie Sancte Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis de Schona et canonicis
ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris totam terram illam quam Swanus
filius Thory auus meus eis dedit in Tubermure............Hiis Testibus
Gilberto comite de Strathern, Domino Roberto filio eius,
.......Malisio senescallo Comitis G. de Strathern, ..........Waltero
filio Swani, Henrico filio Alani filii Swani,.......et multis
aliis'..........
The above shows that William Ruthven son of Walter son of Alan [of good
memory] confirms the grant made by his father to God and the monks of
the Abbey of Scone and it includes the original charter of Walter son
of Alan which states that the land [of Tubermore] was originally given
to the monks by 'Swanus filius Thory auus meus'.
Walter son of Swain and Henry son of Alan son of Swain are not defined
in the charter. These may be Swain's sons or as some suggest his
son-in-laws and grandson.
The witnesses include Gilbert, earl of Strathern first because his
daughter Cecilia was the wife of Walter son of Alan and we suppose the
mother of William Ruthven.
The Chartulary of Lindsores shows the Starthern connection again as
'Waltero filio Alani de Rotheuen' was one of the witnesses to a charter
of Fergus son of Gilbert, earl of Strathern on pages 29-30.
What is the proof of Alesta of Mar being married to Alan fitz Walter
[Stewart]? We know that Eve was his wife as is shown by the other
charters I presented earlier. Is there a documented base for this
conjecture?
Thanks.
Regards,
MichaelAnne
Post by Tim Powys-LybbePost by John P. RaviliousThe following from MichaelAnne Guido is being forwarded, per her
permission.
__________________________________
Dear John and everyone,
The following is the charter from Scone in question and it certainly
Liber Ecclesie de Scon, Munimenta Vetustiora Monasterii Sancte
Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis De Scon, edited by Cosmo Innes,
Confirmatio Alexandri regis concessionis Waltreri filii Alani de terra
quam Swanus filius Thori fecit.
Alexander Dei gratia Rex Scottorum omnibus probis hominibus totius
terre sue clericis et laicis salutem. Sciant presentes et futuri me
concessisse et hac carta mea confirmasse concessionem illam quam
Waltreus filius Alani fecit Deo et ecclesie Sancte Trinitas et Sancti
Michaelis de Scon et canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris
de tota terra illa quam Suanus filius Thori avus eiusdem Walteri
eisdem canonicis dedit in Tibermur per divisas contentas in
confirmatione eiusdem Walteri et de quodam tofto quod fuit aurifabri
cum aliis toftis proximis adiacentibus eidem tofto per divisas
contentas in eadem confirmatione et de quadam terrula supra fontem qui
vocatur fons regis per divisas contentas in eadem confirmacione et de
quadam piscaria de Carnes. Tenendum in puram et perpetuam elemosinam
cum communione pasture et aisiamento nemoris eiusdem Walteri et
ceteris communibus aisiamentis de Tubermur ita libere et quiete
plenarie et pacifice sicut confirmatio eiusdem Walteri eisdem canonicis
inde facta testatur [salvo] servicio meo. Testibus Willelmo de Boscho
cancellario, Willelmo Cumin.
Many thanks for finding and producing this. I am useless at Latin. Can
(a) What in this charter says that Swain was the grandfather of Walter?
(b) Assuming this is the charter that The Scots Peerage said was
misinterpreted by Duncan Stewart when he said that Alan married Eva
a daughter of Swan, what was the error that Scots Peerage made?
--
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/