Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

[A***@aol.com]

In answer to your query who was the mother of Walter Stewart, 3rd High
Steward of Scotland, I quote from Stewart Ross in his book The Stewart Dynasty
(Thomas and Lochar 1993). "Alan married twice, on both occasions taking a wife
from a native Scottish family. His first wife was Eva, daughter of Swain, son
of the first recorded sheriff of Lothian. The arrangement has all the
hallmarks of Walter's handiwork. A wise rather than an ambition liaison, it linked
the stewards to an established Anglian dynasty and to an office which the
king was seeking to extend around the kingdom. Unfortunately Eva died young,
leaving no children.
The steward's second marriage was an altogether more ambitious business. His
partner this time was Alesta, daughter of Morgrund, the Celtic Earl of Mar.
The union of a leading Anglo-Norman family with one of the ancient earldoms,
possibly put forward jointly by the king and Alan, was a step up the social
ladder for the stewards; it also fitted in with William's efforts to extend
his personal authority northwards and promote harmony between the new and old
aristocracies. The Scottish kings were well aware of the dangers of creating
a governing class isolated from the country's traditional leaders." (Ross
is, of course, referring here to King William 1 of Scotland)

As I was aware that others in online databases had Eva as Walter's mother, I
wrote to Stewart Ross and asked him about the source for his view that
Alesta of Mar was Walter's mother and not Eva. He replied that he relied on the
secondary source of the authoritative writing of Professor G.W.S Barrow, a
notable historian of early Scottish history.
Alex Stewart

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by A***@aol.com
In answer to your

[Could you include a preface to identify who the 'you' was to whom you
are replying?]

Post by A***@aol.com
query who was the mother of Walter Stewart, 3rd High Steward of
Scotland, I quote from Stewart Ross in his book The Stewart Dynasty
(Thomas and Lochar 1993). "Alan married twice, on both occasions
taking a wife from a native Scottish family. His first wife was Eva,
daughter of Swain, son of the first recorded sheriff of Lothian. The
arrangement has all the hallmarks of Walter's handiwork. A wise
rather than an ambition liaison, it linked the stewards to an
established Anglian dynasty and to an office which the king was
seeking to extend around the kingdom. Unfortunately Eva died young,
leaving no children. The steward's second marriage was an altogether
more ambitious business. His partner this time was Alesta, daughter
of Morgrund, the Celtic Earl of Mar. The union of a leading
Anglo-Norman family with one of the ancient earldoms, possibly put
forward jointly by the king and Alan, was a step up the social ladder
for the stewards; it also fitted in with William's efforts to extend
his personal authority northwards and promote harmony between the new
and old aristocracies. The Scottish kings were well aware of the
dangers of creating a governing class isolated from the country's
traditional leaders." (Ross is, of course, referring here to King
William 1 of Scotland)
As I was aware that others in online databases had Eva as Walter's
mother, I wrote to Stewart Ross and asked him about the source for
his view that Alesta of Mar was Walter's mother and not Eva. He
replied that he relied on the secondary source of the authoritative
writing of Professor G.W.S Barrow, a notable historian of early
Scottish history.

Earlier Stewart generations are covered by J H Round's research from
French primary documents in "Studies in Peerage and Family History", pub
1901 and reprinted 1970 and 1996, pp. 115-131.

There is also a researched genealogy in: The Scots Peerage, Vol 1, pp. 9
to 13, and this states, p. 12:

"Alan, son of Walter, and second High Stewart of Scotland ... is said
to have married Eva, daughter of Swan, son of Thor, Lord of Tippermuir
and Tranent, but this seems to be founded on a mistaken reading by
Duncan Stewart of a charter in the Register of Scone"

However in the Corrigenda in Vol 9 p. 1, it has:

"P. 12, l. 5 after 'Eva,' add note, 'Her name was certainly Eva (Reg
Prior S. Andree, 257), but her parentage is unknown.'"

Finally Round added one earlier generation to the above in "The
Genealogist", published by G Bell & Sons in London, Vol XVIII, pp. 1-2.

I have yet to find any later research to confirm the views of Ross or
Barrow.

[John P. Ravilious]

Saturday, 28 October, 2006


Dear Tim, Deb, Alex, et al.,

The identification of Alesta as the mother of Walter the Stewart
seems to have received wide acceptance (cf. W. M. Metcalfe's History
of the County of Renfrew (1906), p. 35). Whether there is any
evidence on the basis of land tenure, I am not aware: there is some
weak onomastic support for same, however.

1. Alesta is a Gaelic variant of Alexandra (Alasdair -> Alesta).
We find the name Alexander in the Stewart family documented
starting with Alexander, grandson of Walter (and evidently
Alesta), who was born in 1214.

2. The adoption of the name James as a typical Stewart name only
begins with Alexander the Stewart's son, James the Stewart
(fl. 1243-1309). This typically has been ascribed to his being
named for Seumas mac Angus of Bute and Arran, but Andrew
MacEwen has shown this to be an erroneous link. It would
appear (short of a new find as to Alexander the Stewart's
mother) that the name came into the family with Alesta, whose
brother James of Mar is well documented:

A. 'James, s. of Moregrund', witness to confirmation by
Malcolm, son of Morgund Earl of Mar, of his father's grant
to St. Andrews ' [CP, cites Antiquities of Aberdeen and
Banff; vol. ii, p.17, from Denmylne charters, Lib. of
Advocates].

B. ' lord I., son of M., of good memory, late earl of Mar ',
party to an agreement between the prior of St. Andrews and
their serf Gillemor, 1222 [William Croft Dickinson, Gordon
Donaldson and Isabel A. Milne, eds., A Source Book of
Scottish History (London, Edinburgh: Thomas Nelson and Sons,
Ltd.) p. 109].

I note no issues re: consanguinity among the descendants of Alesta
and her brother Duncan, earl of Mar. If any should be noted by anyone
else of the list, please advise.

Cheers,

John *




Morgund = Agnes
E of Mar I
Earl ca. 1152 I
d. bef 30 Mar 1183 I
I
__________________I________________
I I I I
Alan fitz Walter = Alesta Malcolm James Duncan
Steward of I of ** E of Mar
Scotland 1177-1204 I Mar d. bef 7 Feb 1243
I I
I V
________________I___________________________________________
I I I I
David Walter Elizabeth Avelina
dvp Steward = Maldouen = Duncan
1204-1241 E of Lennox E of Carrick
__________I_______________ I I
I I I I V V
Alexander <siblings>
Steward 1241-1283
= Joanna
___I_____________________
I I
James ** Sir John
Steward le Steward
1283-1309 I
I V
V


* John P. Ravilious

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by A***@aol.com
In answer to your

[Could you include a preface to identify who the 'you' was to whom you
are replying?]

Post by A***@aol.com
query who was the mother of Walter Stewart, 3rd High Steward of
Scotland, I quote from Stewart Ross in his book The Stewart Dynasty
(Thomas and Lochar 1993). "Alan married twice, on both occasions
taking a wife from a native Scottish family. His first wife was Eva,
daughter of Swain, son of the first recorded sheriff of Lothian. The
arrangement has all the hallmarks of Walter's handiwork. A wise
rather than an ambition liaison, it linked the stewards to an
established Anglian dynasty and to an office which the king was
seeking to extend around the kingdom. Unfortunately Eva died young,
leaving no children. The steward's second marriage was an altogether
more ambitious business. His partner this time was Alesta, daughter
of Morgrund, the Celtic Earl of Mar. The union of a leading
Anglo-Norman family with one of the ancient earldoms, possibly put
forward jointly by the king and Alan, was a step up the social ladder
for the stewards; it also fitted in with William's efforts to extend
his personal authority northwards and promote harmony between the new
and old aristocracies. The Scottish kings were well aware of the
dangers of creating a governing class isolated from the country's
traditional leaders." (Ross is, of course, referring here to King
William 1 of Scotland)
As I was aware that others in online databases had Eva as Walter's
mother, I wrote to Stewart Ross and asked him about the source for
his view that Alesta of Mar was Walter's mother and not Eva. He
replied that he relied on the secondary source of the authoritative
writing of Professor G.W.S Barrow, a notable historian of early
Scottish history.

Earlier Stewart generations are covered by J H Round's research from
French primary documents in "Studies in Peerage and Family History", pub
1901 and reprinted 1970 and 1996, pp. 115-131.
There is also a researched genealogy in: The Scots Peerage, Vol 1, pp. 9
"Alan, son of Walter, and second High Stewart of Scotland ... is said
to have married Eva, daughter of Swan, son of Thor, Lord of Tippermuir
and Tranent, but this seems to be founded on a mistaken reading by
Duncan Stewart of a charter in the Register of Scone"
"P. 12, l. 5 after 'Eva,' add note, 'Her name was certainly Eva (Reg
Prior S. Andree, 257), but her parentage is unknown.'"
Finally Round added one earlier generation to the above in "The
Genealogist", published by G Bell & Sons in London, Vol XVIII, pp. 1-2.
I have yet to find any later research to confirm the views of Ross or
Barrow.
--
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

[John P. Ravilious]

The following from MichaelAnne Guido is being forwarded, per her
permission.
__________________________________


Dear John and everyone,

The following is the charter from Scone in question and it certainly
states that Walter fitz Alan is the grandson of Swain son of Thor:

Liber Ecclesie de Scon, Munimenta Vetustiora Monasterii Sancte
Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis De Scon, edited by Cosmo Innes,
Bannatyne Club, Edinburgi, MDCCCXLIII:

Pages 47-48:
Confirmatio Alexandri regis concessionis Waltreri filii Alani de terra
quam Swanus filius Thori fecit.
Alexander Dei gratia Rex Scottorum omnibus probis hominibus totius
terre sue clericis et laicis salutem. Sciant presentes et futuri me
concessisse et hac carta mea confirmasse concessionem illam quam
Waltreus filius Alani fecit Deo et ecclesie Sancte Trinitas et Sancti
Michaelis de Scon et canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris
de tota terra illa quam Suanus filius Thori avus eiusdem Walteri
eisdem canonicis dedit in Tibermur per divisas contentas in
confirmatione eiusdem Walteri et de quodam tofto quod fuit aurifabri
cum aliis toftis proximis adiacentibus eidem tofto per divisas
contentas in eadem confirmatione et de quadam terrula supra fontem qui
vocatur fons regis per divisas contentas in eadem confirmacione et de
quadam piscaria de Carnes. Tenendum in puram et perpetuam elemosinam
cum communione pasture et aisiamento nemoris eiusdem Walteri et
ceteris communibus aisiamentis de Tubermur ita libere et quiete
plenarie et pacifice sicut confirmatio eiusdem Walteri eisdem canonicis
inde facta testatur [salvo] servicio meo. Testibus Willelmo de Boscho
cancellario, Willelmo Cumin.

The fact that Alan fitz Walter had a wife named Eve is shown in
several charters relevant portions shown below:

Liber Cartarum Prioratus Sancti Andree in Scotia, E Registro Ipso in
Archivis Baronum de Panmure Hodie Asservato, edited by Thomas Thomson,
Bannatyne Club, Edinburgh, 1841:

Pages 257-258:
Carta Alani filii Walteri dapiferi Regis de terra in villa de Unthanc.
.........hanc terram dedi eis pro anima regis David et regis Malcolmi
et pro anima patris mei et pro anima mea et pro anima Eve sponse
mee.......

Confirmacio Walteri filii Alani dapiferi Regis de terra in villa de
Unthanc.
Omnibus sancte matris ecclesie filiis Walterus filius Alani dapifer
domini regis Scocie salutem......

Registrum S. Marie de Neubotle, Abbacie Cisterciensis Beate Virginis de
Neubotle Chartarium Vetus 1140-1528, by Cosmo Innes,Bannatyne Club,
Edinburgi, MDCCCXLIX:

Pages 145-146:
Carta Alani filii Walteri de tofto in Renfru et Reti.
Universis sancte matris ecclesie filiis et fidelibus Alanus filius
Walteri salutem. Sciant me pro anima domini Rege David et Comitis
Henrici et Rege Malcolmi et pro anima patris mei Walteri filii Alani
et pro anima mea et pro anima sponse mee Eve et omnium antecessorum
meorum concessisse dedisse et hac carta mea confirmasse Deo et
ecclesie Sancte Marie de Neubotle et monachis ibidem Deo servientibus
unum plenarium toftum illum scilibus qui proximus est gardino meo ex
occidentali parte in villa de Renfru..........

I am very familiar with most of Professor Barrow's work both in books
and his articles in SHR and other journals and I have never seen
anything relating to Alesta daughter of the earl of Mar. Could someone
please give an exact reference for the Barrow work cited?

Best wishes,
MichaelAnne

Post by John P. Ravilious
Saturday, 28 October, 2006

<<<<<<SNIP >>>>>>>>>>>

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by John P. Ravilious
The following from MichaelAnne Guido is being forwarded, per her
permission.
__________________________________
Dear John and everyone,
The following is the charter from Scone in question and it certainly
Liber Ecclesie de Scon, Munimenta Vetustiora Monasterii Sancte
Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis De Scon, edited by Cosmo Innes,
Confirmatio Alexandri regis concessionis Waltreri filii Alani de terra
quam Swanus filius Thori fecit.
Alexander Dei gratia Rex Scottorum omnibus probis hominibus totius
terre sue clericis et laicis salutem. Sciant presentes et futuri me
concessisse et hac carta mea confirmasse concessionem illam quam
Waltreus filius Alani fecit Deo et ecclesie Sancte Trinitas et Sancti
Michaelis de Scon et canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris
de tota terra illa quam Suanus filius Thori avus eiusdem Walteri
eisdem canonicis dedit in Tibermur per divisas contentas in
confirmatione eiusdem Walteri et de quodam tofto quod fuit aurifabri
cum aliis toftis proximis adiacentibus eidem tofto per divisas
contentas in eadem confirmatione et de quadam terrula supra fontem qui
vocatur fons regis per divisas contentas in eadem confirmacione et de
quadam piscaria de Carnes. Tenendum in puram et perpetuam elemosinam
cum communione pasture et aisiamento nemoris eiusdem Walteri et
ceteris communibus aisiamentis de Tubermur ita libere et quiete
plenarie et pacifice sicut confirmatio eiusdem Walteri eisdem canonicis
inde facta testatur [salvo] servicio meo. Testibus Willelmo de Boscho
cancellario, Willelmo Cumin.

Many thanks for finding and producing this. I am useless at Latin. Can
you or anyone explain:

(a) What in this charter says that Swain was the grandfather of Walter?

(b) Assuming this is the charter that The Scots Peerage said was
misinterpreted by Duncan Stewart when he said that Alan married Eva
a daughter of Swan, what was the error that Scots Peerage made?

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Tim, et al.,

The following message is from MichaelAnne Guido. My response to
MichaelAnne will follow.

Cheers,

John

Dear John,

As I mentioned to you previously I am not working on the Stewart line
so I was unaware of Charter #125 of Scone abbey until you mentioned
it. This charter confirms that 'Walterus filius Alani' was indeed a
Ruthven. The charter which I present as an excerpt states:

Confirmacio Carte Walteri filii Alani a Willielmo de Rothuen terre de
Tubermor et piscarie de Carnis.
Omnibus Christi fidelibus presens scriptum visuris vel audituris
Willelmus de Rotheuen dominus euisdem eternam in domino salutem.
Noveritis me cartam domini Walteri filii Alani bone memorie patris mei
Deo et Ecclesie Sancte Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis de Schona et
canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris ..........'Universis
sancte matris ecclesie filiis Walterus filius Alani salutem. Noverit
universitas vestra me concessisse et hac mea carta confirmasse Deo et
ecclesie Sancte Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis de Schona et canonicis
ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris totam terram illam quam Swanus
filius Thory auus meus eis dedit in Tubermure............Hiis Testibus
Gilberto comite de Strathern, Domino Roberto filio eius,
.......Malisio senescallo Comitis G. de Strathern, ..........Waltero
filio Swani, Henrico filio Alani filii Swani,.......et multis
aliis'..........


The above shows that William Ruthven son of Walter son of Alan [of good
memory] confirms the grant made by his father to God and the monks of
the Abbey of Scone and it includes the original charter of Walter son
of Alan which states that the land [of Tubermore] was originally given
to the monks by 'Swanus filius Thory auus meus'.

Walter son of Swain and Henry son of Alan son of Swain are not defined
in the charter. These may be Swain's sons or as some suggest his
son-in-laws and grandson.

The witnesses include Gilbert, earl of Strathern first because his
daughter Cecilia was the wife of Walter son of Alan and we suppose the
mother of William Ruthven.

The Chartulary of Lindsores shows the Starthern connection again as
'Waltero filio Alani de Rotheuen' was one of the witnesses to a charter
of Fergus son of Gilbert, earl of Strathern on pages 29-30.

What is the proof of Alesta of Mar being married to Alan fitz Walter
[Stewart]? We know that Eve was his wife as is shown by the other
charters I presented earlier. Is there a documented base for this
conjecture?

Thanks.

Regards,
MichaelAnne

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by John P. Ravilious
The following from MichaelAnne Guido is being forwarded, per her
permission.
__________________________________
Dear John and everyone,
The following is the charter from Scone in question and it certainly
Liber Ecclesie de Scon, Munimenta Vetustiora Monasterii Sancte
Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis De Scon, edited by Cosmo Innes,
Confirmatio Alexandri regis concessionis Waltreri filii Alani de terra
quam Swanus filius Thori fecit.
Alexander Dei gratia Rex Scottorum omnibus probis hominibus totius
terre sue clericis et laicis salutem. Sciant presentes et futuri me
concessisse et hac carta mea confirmasse concessionem illam quam
Waltreus filius Alani fecit Deo et ecclesie Sancte Trinitas et Sancti
Michaelis de Scon et canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris
de tota terra illa quam Suanus filius Thori avus eiusdem Walteri
eisdem canonicis dedit in Tibermur per divisas contentas in
confirmatione eiusdem Walteri et de quodam tofto quod fuit aurifabri
cum aliis toftis proximis adiacentibus eidem tofto per divisas
contentas in eadem confirmatione et de quadam terrula supra fontem qui
vocatur fons regis per divisas contentas in eadem confirmacione et de
quadam piscaria de Carnes. Tenendum in puram et perpetuam elemosinam
cum communione pasture et aisiamento nemoris eiusdem Walteri et
ceteris communibus aisiamentis de Tubermur ita libere et quiete
plenarie et pacifice sicut confirmatio eiusdem Walteri eisdem canonicis
inde facta testatur [salvo] servicio meo. Testibus Willelmo de Boscho
cancellario, Willelmo Cumin.

Many thanks for finding and producing this. I am useless at Latin. Can
(a) What in this charter says that Swain was the grandfather of Walter?
(b) Assuming this is the charter that The Scots Peerage said was
misinterpreted by Duncan Stewart when he said that Alan married Eva
a daughter of Swan, what was the error that Scots Peerage made?
--
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

[John P. Ravilious]

Sunday, 29 October, 2006



Dear MichaelAnne,

Many thanks for looking at that charter of William de Ruthven;
as you say, it clearly shows that Tippermuir went via Walter fitz
Alan (de Ruthven) to the Ruthven family, so the portrayal in Scots
Peerage is correct, at least to a point.

The chronology of the Stewarts (or fitz Alans) ca. 1150-1200
may help in resolving one issue, whether Eva (1st wife of Alan fitz
Walter, the Steward) was the mother of the issue, or all the issue,
of Alan fitz Walter. He was married to Eva sometime before 1165,
and determining how long before may be critical. Malcolm IV was
King of Scots at the date of the following charter, so we know at
the earliest it could date from May 1153, but no later than
Malcolm's death ['Willelmus rex' not being named in the charter],
9 Dec 1165:

' Carta Alani filii Walteri de tofto in Renfru et Reti.
Universis sancte matris ecclesie filiis et fidelibus Alanus
filius Walteri salutem. Sciant me pro anima domini Rege David et
Comitis Henrici et Rege Malcolmi et pro anima patris mei Walteri
filii Alani et pro anima mea et pro anima sponse mee Eve et
omnium antecessorum meorum concessisse dedisse et hac carta
mea confirmasse Deo et ecclesie Sancte Marie de Neubotle et
monachis ibidem Deo servientibus unum plenarium toftum illum
scilibus qui proximus est gardino meo ex occidentali parte in
villa de Renfru..........' [1]

I am searching for additional biographical details re: Alan's
son Walter. Concerning his daughter Avelina, she was married in
November 2000 to Duncan, earl of Carrick [2]. Duncan was born
ca. 1170 according to Andrew MacEwen: given his parents being
married ca. 1169 (also per A. MacEwen), this seems quite
reasonable, and following on Duncan's grant in 1191 (without
consent of a guardian) to Melrose, it would appear he was of
age in 1191 [3]. The likelihood is that Avelina was younger
than Duncan, esp. given the marriage customs of the age - in
1200, we would expect she was no older than 20 (and a 'spinster'
at that, if she was). Most likely, she was born between 1175
1185, with the greatest likelihood of say 1180-1184.

A. If the charter of Alan fitz Walter was given in 1165,
and Eva was herself aged say 16 to 20 at that time,
she would have been born say 1145-1149. If she was
Avelina's mother, she would have been aged between
say 31 and 39 at the time of Avelina's conjectured
birth - not unheard or impossible.

B. If the charter of Alan fitz Walter was given somewhat
earlier, say 1155, Eva would likely then have been
aged 16 to 20 at least at that time - born say
1135-1139. If she was Avelina's mother, she would
probably have been aged between 41 and 49 at the
time of Avelina's birth (conjectured ca. 1180-1184).
This ranges from less likely to virtually impossible.

That Eva was the mother of Avelina (wife of Duncan of Carrick)
appears to be possible, but uncertain. Further documentation
concerning Alesta of Mar as (1) a 2nd wife of Alan fitz Walter,
and (2) as the mother of Avelina, Walter, or any of the issue of
Alan fitz Walter, is clearly important. Should anyone have
further evidence on the matter, that would be most welcome.

Cheers,

John



NOTES

[1] Registrum S. Marie de Neubotle, Abbacie Cisterciensis Beate
Virginis de Neubotle Chartarium Vetus 1140-1528 (Cosmo
Innes, ed. Bannatyne Club, Edinburgh, 1899) pp. 145-146,
courtesy MichaelAnne Guido.

[2] Richard Oram, The Lordship of Galloway, p. 133.

[3] Chronica de Mailros, pp. 100-101, fol. 24b.

Post by John P. Ravilious
Dear Tim, et al.,
The following message is from MichaelAnne Guido. My response to
MichaelAnne will follow.
Cheers,
John
Dear John,
As I mentioned to you previously I am not working on the Stewart line
so I was unaware of Charter #125 of Scone abbey until you mentioned
it. This charter confirms that 'Walterus filius Alani' was indeed a
Confirmacio Carte Walteri filii Alani a Willielmo de Rothuen terre de
Tubermor et piscarie de Carnis.
Omnibus Christi fidelibus presens scriptum visuris vel audituris
Willelmus de Rotheuen dominus euisdem eternam in domino salutem.
Noveritis me cartam domini Walteri filii Alani bone memorie patris mei
Deo et Ecclesie Sancte Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis de Schona et
canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris ..........'Universis
sancte matris ecclesie filiis Walterus filius Alani salutem. Noverit
universitas vestra me concessisse et hac mea carta confirmasse Deo et
ecclesie Sancte Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis de Schona et canonicis
ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris totam terram illam quam Swanus
filius Thory auus meus eis dedit in Tubermure............Hiis Testibus
Gilberto comite de Strathern, Domino Roberto filio eius,
.......Malisio senescallo Comitis G. de Strathern, ..........Waltero
filio Swani, Henrico filio Alani filii Swani,.......et multis
aliis'..........
The above shows that William Ruthven son of Walter son of Alan [of good
memory] confirms the grant made by his father to God and the monks of
the Abbey of Scone and it includes the original charter of Walter son
of Alan which states that the land [of Tubermore] was originally given
to the monks by 'Swanus filius Thory auus meus'.
Walter son of Swain and Henry son of Alan son of Swain are not defined
in the charter. These may be Swain's sons or as some suggest his
son-in-laws and grandson.
The witnesses include Gilbert, earl of Strathern first because his
daughter Cecilia was the wife of Walter son of Alan and we suppose the
mother of William Ruthven.
The Chartulary of Lindsores shows the Starthern connection again as
'Waltero filio Alani de Rotheuen' was one of the witnesses to a charter
of Fergus son of Gilbert, earl of Strathern on pages 29-30.
What is the proof of Alesta of Mar being married to Alan fitz Walter
[Stewart]? We know that Eve was his wife as is shown by the other
charters I presented earlier. Is there a documented base for this
conjecture?
Thanks.
Regards,
MichaelAnne

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by John P. Ravilious
The following from MichaelAnne Guido is being forwarded, per her
permission.
__________________________________
Dear John and everyone,
The following is the charter from Scone in question and it certainly
Liber Ecclesie de Scon, Munimenta Vetustiora Monasterii Sancte
Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis De Scon, edited by Cosmo Innes,
Confirmatio Alexandri regis concessionis Waltreri filii Alani de terra
quam Swanus filius Thori fecit.
Alexander Dei gratia Rex Scottorum omnibus probis hominibus totius
terre sue clericis et laicis salutem. Sciant presentes et futuri me
concessisse et hac carta mea confirmasse concessionem illam quam
Waltreus filius Alani fecit Deo et ecclesie Sancte Trinitas et Sancti
Michaelis de Scon et canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris
de tota terra illa quam Suanus filius Thori avus eiusdem Walteri
eisdem canonicis dedit in Tibermur per divisas contentas in
confirmatione eiusdem Walteri et de quodam tofto quod fuit aurifabri
cum aliis toftis proximis adiacentibus eidem tofto per divisas
contentas in eadem confirmatione et de quadam terrula supra fontem qui
vocatur fons regis per divisas contentas in eadem confirmacione et de
quadam piscaria de Carnes. Tenendum in puram et perpetuam elemosinam
cum communione pasture et aisiamento nemoris eiusdem Walteri et
ceteris communibus aisiamentis de Tubermur ita libere et quiete
plenarie et pacifice sicut confirmatio eiusdem Walteri eisdem canonicis
inde facta testatur [salvo] servicio meo. Testibus Willelmo de Boscho
cancellario, Willelmo Cumin.

Many thanks for finding and producing this. I am useless at Latin. Can
(a) What in this charter says that Swain was the grandfather of Walter?
(b) Assuming this is the charter that The Scots Peerage said was
misinterpreted by Duncan Stewart when he said that Alan married Eva
a daughter of Swan, what was the error that Scots Peerage made?
--
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

[John P. Ravilious]

The following message is from MichaelAnne Guido.
_____________________________________________


In a message dated 10/29/2006 9:12:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
Therav3 writes:

pro anima domini Rege David et Comitis Henrici et Rege Malcolmi et pro
anima patris mei Walteri filii Alani et pro anima mea et pro anima
sponse mee Eve et omnium antecessorum meorum


Dear John,

I may be able to help a little with the dates you mention. This is all
I have pertaining to your last posting. I am abstracting the Latin
passages.

The above states:

'for the soul of king David and earl Henry and king Malcolm and for the
soul of my father Walter son of Alan and for the soul of my wife Eve
and all my ancestors'.


Generally the current monarch was presented either as ' pro salute
rege.....' or 'pro salute anima rege.......' meaning for the weal
[safety] of king...... or for the safety of the soul of king.....

Hugh de Normanville who witnessed the charter can be dated to the reign
of William I of Scotland as he witnessed a charter before 1177 for the
king and in 1200 he and his wife Alina de Berkley granted land to
Melrose Abbey:

Liber Sancte Marie de Melros Munimenta Vetustiora Monasterii
Cisterciensis de Melros, Tomus Primus, Edinburgi, MDCCCXXXVII:

Pages 79-80:
Carta H. de Normanville de Morhus.

Omnibus sancte matris ecclesie filiis tam presentis quam futuris Hugo
de Normanville et Alina uxor eius salutem. Sciatis nos dedisee et
concessisse et hac carta nostra confirmasse Deo et ecclesie Sancte
Marie de Melros et monachis ibidem Deo servientibus pro animabus David
et Malcolmi Regum Scottie et Henrico Comes et pro salute domini nostri
Willemi Rege Scottie et Alexandri filii sui et Comes David fratris
Rege et pro animabus nostris et patrum nostrorum et matrum et omnium
antecessorum et successorum nostrorum terram de Kelvesete et de
Faulawe...................


'To all the sons of holy mother church now and future, Hugh de
Normanville and his wife Alina [send] greetings. Be it known that we
give, grant and by our charter confirm to God and the church of St.
Mary of Melrose and the monks there serving God for the souls of David
and Malcolm kings of Scotland and earl Henry and for the safety of our
lord William, king of Scotland, and Alexander his son and earl David
brother of the king and for our souls and [those of] our fathers and
our mothers and all our ancestors and successors the land of Kelvesete
and of Faulawe.........'

The information I have on the marriage date for Avelina daughter of
Alan fitz Walter to Duncan, earl of Carrick is from Barrow:

The Anglo-Norman Era in Scottish History, The Ford Lectures delivered
in the University of Oxford in Hillary Term 1977 by G.W.S. Barrow,
F.B.A., Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1980:

Page 68:
The first of the Stewarts to acquire Bute seems to have been Alan,
Walter I's son and heir, around 1200, about the time that his daughter
Avelina --named after her grandmother Avelina de Hesdin--- was married
to Duncan of Carrick, apparently without the king's consent.

Footnote: Chron. Howden, iv.145. The grant of Kingarth may have been
due partly to Alan's desire to appease the king's wrath. See the
Paisley Register #15 (grant of the church of 'Kengaif', i.e. Kingarth,
in the isle of Bute, with the parish of the whole island, by Alan the
Stewart, 1198 X 1204).

The charter Barrow refers to is:

Registrum Monasterii de Passelet, Cartas Privilegia Conventiones alique
Munimenta Complectens, 1163-1529, edited by Cosmo Innes, Bannatyne
Club, Edinburgh 1832:

Page 15:
Confirmatio de Fultone, et donatio ecclesie et capellarum de Bote, per
cartam Alani filii Walteri, fundatoris. [Folio viii ca. 1204]

The relevant portion of the charter Barrow cites in his note is:

'Sciant presentes et futuri, quod ego Alanus filius Walteri, dapifer
Regis Scotie, ......pro anima regis David et pro anima regis Malcolmi
et pro anima patris Walteri et matris mee Eschene, et pro salute mei
ipsius et heredum meorum, dono, concedo et hac mea carta confirmo
eidem domui de Passelet, et monachis ibidem Deo servientibus,
ecclesiam de Kengaif in insula de Bote, cum omnibus capellis et tota
parochia eiusdem insule,....'


'Be it known now and future that I Alan son of Walter, steward of the
king of Scotland.......for the soul of king David and for the soul of
king Malcolm and for the soul of my father Walter and my mother
Eschene, and for my safety and also of my heir, give, grant and by my
charter confirm to the same house of Paisley, and the monks there
serving God, the church of Kengaif in the island of Bute, with all
chapels and [the] total parish of the same island.......'

I do not have the citation from Howden at hand.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
MichaelAnne

Post by John P. Ravilious
Sunday, 29 October, 2006
Dear MichaelAnne,
Many thanks for looking at that charter of William de Ruthven;
as you say, it clearly shows that Tippermuir went via Walter fitz
Alan (de Ruthven) to the Ruthven family, so the portrayal in Scots
Peerage is correct, at least to a point.
The chronology of the Stewarts (or fitz Alans) ca. 1150-1200
may help in resolving one issue, whether Eva (1st wife of Alan fitz
Walter, the Steward) was the mother of the issue, or all the issue,
of Alan fitz Walter. He was married to Eva sometime before 1165,
and determining how long before may be critical. Malcolm IV was
King of Scots at the date of the following charter, so we know at
the earliest it could date from May 1153, but no later than
Malcolm's death ['Willelmus rex' not being named in the charter],
' Carta Alani filii Walteri de tofto in Renfru et Reti.
Universis sancte matris ecclesie filiis et fidelibus Alanus
filius Walteri salutem. Sciant me pro anima domini Rege David et
Comitis Henrici et Rege Malcolmi et pro anima patris mei Walteri
filii Alani et pro anima mea et pro anima sponse mee Eve et
omnium antecessorum meorum concessisse dedisse et hac carta
mea confirmasse Deo et ecclesie Sancte Marie de Neubotle et
monachis ibidem Deo servientibus unum plenarium toftum illum
scilibus qui proximus est gardino meo ex occidentali parte in
villa de Renfru..........' [1]
I am searching for additional biographical details re: Alan's
son Walter. Concerning his daughter Avelina, she was married in
November 2000 to Duncan, earl of Carrick [2]. Duncan was born
ca. 1170 according to Andrew MacEwen: given his parents being
married ca. 1169 (also per A. MacEwen), this seems quite
reasonable, and following on Duncan's grant in 1191 (without
consent of a guardian) to Melrose, it would appear he was of
age in 1191 [3]. The likelihood is that Avelina was younger
than Duncan, esp. given the marriage customs of the age - in
1200, we would expect she was no older than 20 (and a 'spinster'
at that, if she was). Most likely, she was born between 1175
1185, with the greatest likelihood of say 1180-1184.
A. If the charter of Alan fitz Walter was given in 1165,
and Eva was herself aged say 16 to 20 at that time,
she would have been born say 1145-1149. If she was
Avelina's mother, she would have been aged between
say 31 and 39 at the time of Avelina's conjectured
birth - not unheard or impossible.
B. If the charter of Alan fitz Walter was given somewhat
earlier, say 1155, Eva would likely then have been
aged 16 to 20 at least at that time - born say
1135-1139. If she was Avelina's mother, she would
probably have been aged between 41 and 49 at the
time of Avelina's birth (conjectured ca. 1180-1184).
This ranges from less likely to virtually impossible.
That Eva was the mother of Avelina (wife of Duncan of Carrick)
appears to be possible, but uncertain. Further documentation
concerning Alesta of Mar as (1) a 2nd wife of Alan fitz Walter,
and (2) as the mother of Avelina, Walter, or any of the issue of
Alan fitz Walter, is clearly important. Should anyone have
further evidence on the matter, that would be most welcome.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Registrum S. Marie de Neubotle, Abbacie Cisterciensis Beate
Virginis de Neubotle Chartarium Vetus 1140-1528 (Cosmo
Innes, ed. Bannatyne Club, Edinburgh, 1899) pp. 145-146,
courtesy MichaelAnne Guido.
[2] Richard Oram, The Lordship of Galloway, p. 133.
[3] Chronica de Mailros, pp. 100-101, fol. 24b.

Post by John P. Ravilious
Dear Tim, et al.,
The following message is from MichaelAnne Guido. My response to
MichaelAnne will follow.
Cheers,
John
Dear John,
As I mentioned to you previously I am not working on the Stewart line
so I was unaware of Charter #125 of Scone abbey until you mentioned
it. This charter confirms that 'Walterus filius Alani' was indeed a
Confirmacio Carte Walteri filii Alani a Willielmo de Rothuen terre de
Tubermor et piscarie de Carnis.
Omnibus Christi fidelibus presens scriptum visuris vel audituris
Willelmus de Rotheuen dominus euisdem eternam in domino salutem.
Noveritis me cartam domini Walteri filii Alani bone memorie patris mei
Deo et Ecclesie Sancte Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis de Schona et
canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris ..........'Universis
sancte matris ecclesie filiis Walterus filius Alani salutem. Noverit
universitas vestra me concessisse et hac mea carta confirmasse Deo et
ecclesie Sancte Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis de Schona et canonicis
ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris totam terram illam quam Swanus
filius Thory auus meus eis dedit in Tubermure............Hiis Testibus
Gilberto comite de Strathern, Domino Roberto filio eius,
.......Malisio senescallo Comitis G. de Strathern, ..........Waltero
filio Swani, Henrico filio Alani filii Swani,.......et multis
aliis'..........
The above shows that William Ruthven son of Walter son of Alan [of good
memory] confirms the grant made by his father to God and the monks of
the Abbey of Scone and it includes the original charter of Walter son
of Alan which states that the land [of Tubermore] was originally given
to the monks by 'Swanus filius Thory auus meus'.
Walter son of Swain and Henry son of Alan son of Swain are not defined
in the charter. These may be Swain's sons or as some suggest his
son-in-laws and grandson.
The witnesses include Gilbert, earl of Strathern first because his
daughter Cecilia was the wife of Walter son of Alan and we suppose the
mother of William Ruthven.
The Chartulary of Lindsores shows the Starthern connection again as
'Waltero filio Alani de Rotheuen' was one of the witnesses to a charter
of Fergus son of Gilbert, earl of Strathern on pages 29-30.
What is the proof of Alesta of Mar being married to Alan fitz Walter
[Stewart]? We know that Eve was his wife as is shown by the other
charters I presented earlier. Is there a documented base for this
conjecture?
Thanks.
Regards,
MichaelAnne

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by John P. Ravilious
The following from MichaelAnne Guido is being forwarded, per her
permission.
__________________________________
Dear John and everyone,
The following is the charter from Scone in question and it certainly
Liber Ecclesie de Scon, Munimenta Vetustiora Monasterii Sancte
Trinitatis et Sancti Michaelis De Scon, edited by Cosmo Innes,
Confirmatio Alexandri regis concessionis Waltreri filii Alani de terra
quam Swanus filius Thori fecit.
Alexander Dei gratia Rex Scottorum omnibus probis hominibus totius
terre sue clericis et laicis salutem. Sciant presentes et futuri me
concessisse et hac carta mea confirmasse concessionem illam quam
Waltreus filius Alani fecit Deo et ecclesie Sancte Trinitas et Sancti
Michaelis de Scon et canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus et servituris
de tota terra illa quam Suanus filius Thori avus eiusdem Walteri
eisdem canonicis dedit in Tibermur per divisas contentas in
confirmatione eiusdem Walteri et de quodam tofto quod fuit aurifabri
cum aliis toftis proximis adiacentibus eidem tofto per divisas
contentas in eadem confirmatione et de quadam terrula supra fontem qui
vocatur fons regis per divisas contentas in eadem confirmacione et de
quadam piscaria de Carnes. Tenendum in puram et perpetuam elemosinam
cum communione pasture et aisiamento nemoris eiusdem Walteri et
ceteris communibus aisiamentis de Tubermur ita libere et quiete
plenarie et pacifice sicut confirmatio eiusdem Walteri eisdem canonicis
inde facta testatur [salvo] servicio meo. Testibus Willelmo de Boscho
cancellario, Willelmo Cumin.

Many thanks for finding and producing this. I am useless at Latin. Can
(a) What in this charter says that Swain was the grandfather of Walter?
(b) Assuming this is the charter that The Scots Peerage said was
misinterpreted by Duncan Stewart when he said that Alan married Eva
a daughter of Swan, what was the error that Scots Peerage made?
--
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

[qbutterbee]

Hi all

I would really like to say thank you to everyone who has replied to my
query about Walter Stewart. It has been wonderful to read the Charters
and learning just a bit more about the Stewart family. I am now a
little bit more wiser on Eve possibly being the mother and not Alesta
or Margaret. I will adjust my database accordingly quoting the various
sources that have been used to help me.

Thank you again.
Cheers Deb from Adelaide SA

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

Post by John P. Ravilious
The Anglo-Norman Era in Scottish History, The Ford Lectures delivered
in the University of Oxford in Hillary Term 1977 by G.W.S. Barrow,
The first of the Stewarts to acquire Bute seems to have been Alan,
Walter I's son and heir, around 1200, about the time that his daughter
Avelina --named after her grandmother Avelina de Hesdin--- was married
to Duncan of Carrick, apparently without the king's consent.

Actually Avelina was her great-grand-mother. Alan's mother was Eschina
(see charter quoted below in the same post) Alan's father Walter was
married to Avelina daughter of Arnulf de Hesdun.

Post by John P. Ravilious
'Sciant presentes et futuri, quod ego Alanus filius Walteri, dapifer
Regis Scotie, ......pro anima regis David et pro anima regis Malcolmi
et pro anima patris Walteri et matris mee Eschene, et pro salute mei
ipsius et heredum meorum, dono, concedo et hac mea carta confirmo
eidem domui de Passelet, et monachis ibidem Deo servientibus,
ecclesiam de Kengaif in insula de Bote, cum omnibus capellis et tota
parochia eiusdem insule,....'
'Be it known now and future that I Alan son of Walter, steward of the
king of Scotland.......for the soul of king David and for the soul of
king Malcolm and for the soul of my father Walter and my mother
Eschene, and for my safety and also of my heir, give, grant and by my
charter confirm to the same house of Paisley, and the monks there
serving God, the church of Kengaif in the island of Bute, with all
chapels and [the] total parish of the same island.......'

[J***@aol.com]

Dear John R,
Since MichaelAnne has proven Eve filia Swain to be the
mother of Walter Fitz alan, 3rd High Steward of Scotland, it still remains that
He grew up nearly of their kindred and that He was close to his second mother
Alesta and his Mar "uncles" Malcolm, James and Duncan.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear James, et al.,

I believe this specific relationship is not proved, if the
accounts in Scots Peerage are (in essence) correct. See the following
message of this afternoon.

John

______________________________


Saturday, 28 October, 2006


Dear MichaelAnne, et al.,

If the accounts given in Scots Peerage are correct, the
problem concerning identifying the wife (wives) of Alan fitz
Walter emanates from the names given in the charters. As Tim
noted, in SP I:12 Eva, daughter of Swan, is noted as having been
married to an 'Alan fitz Walter': the error is not in the name,
but the identification of Alan. The footnote reads:

' (1) Liber de Scon, No. 125. The person referred to
being Alan, son of Walter Ruthven. Cf. the charter
cited, and the Chartulary of Lindores, Scot. Hist.
Soc. Ed. 30, 244. ' [1]

The account in SP concerning the family of Ruthven (Earls of
Gowrie) essentially dovetails with this version, with the
apparent error that Alan, father of Walter fitz Alan de Ruthven,
is identified as 'Alan, son of Swan' [2]. Other sources
indicate that besides Tranent and Tippermuir, the lands of
Ruthven were held by Swan son of Thor [3]: if this is correct,
it would appear the Ruthven identification is correct, and that
the problem is one of "the name's the same" {i.e. Walter fitz
Alan -> de Ruthven, not the Stewart).

If this is in fact the case, it does appear from the other
charters you cited that Walter fitz Alan, the Steward, had a
wife named Eva. I do wonder about her identification; the query
concerning the passage of lands from the alleged wife Alesta
(daughter of Morgund of Mar) to the Stewart family still
remains.

Cheers,

John



NOTES

[1] SP I:12, sub _The Kings of Scotland_.
Courtesy of Googlebooks, see

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC01430137&id=_KEKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=eva+daughter+of+Swan+Thor+Tippermuir&ie=ISO-8859-1

[2] SP IV:254-5, sub _Ruthven, Earl of Gowrie_.
Courtesy of Googlebooks, see

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC21881166&id=EbEEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA255&lpg=PA255&dq=ruthven+walter&ie=ISO-8859-1

[3] James Taylor, The Grat Historic Families of Scotland (1887),
extract provided by ElectricScotland and Burke's Peerage
& Gentry:

http://www.burkes-peerage.net/sites/scotland/esnews/es0602a.asp

Post by J***@aol.com
Dear John R,
Since MichaelAnne has proven Eve filia Swain to be the
mother of Walter Fitz alan, 3rd High Steward of Scotland, it still remains that
He grew up nearly of their kindred and that He was close to his second mother
Alesta and his Mar "uncles" Malcolm, James and Duncan.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 10/28/06 10:35:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
***@aol.com writes:

<< He was close to his second mother
Alesta and his Mar "uncles" Malcolm, James and Duncan. >>


Was not Gilchrist, 3rd Earl of Mar 1182- also one of these uncles?
I also have a Gratney, Earl of Mar who I've stuck here as another brother,
but it appears to be wrong actually.

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Will,
Gilchrist who succeeded Morgrund as Earl of Mar doesn`t
appear to have been a son of Morgrund`s wife Agnes as Malcolm, James and Duncan
were (and Alesta their sister was her daughter). We don`t know if Gilchrist were
a son of Morgrund or a kinsman but He (Gilchrist) had a daughter who was
mother by Malcolm de Lundin of a son Thomas de Lundin the Doorward who claimed the
Earldom in oppostion to Duncan, son of Morgrund who became Earl. Thomas
Doorward (Durward)`s son Alan claimed it in oppostion to Duncan`s son William who
had married Elizabeth, daughter of William Comyn, Earl of Buchan. William was
awarded the Earldom which then passed from father to son Donald I,
Gratney/Gartnait, Donald II and Thomas, then his sister Margaret, wife of William Douglas,
Earl of Douglas, then to their son James, Earl of Douglas and Mar, then to
his sister Isabel who died without issue, then various Stewart princes, and
finally to Thomas Erskine of Erskine, a descendant of Gratney`s daughter Ellen.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Will,
Thomas Durward died before 1230 and after 1212, his son Alan
died in 1275 .
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
source : Alan Young Robert the Bruce`s rivals :The Comyns 1212-1314
page 38 and Stirnet Genealogy Atholl01

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 10/31/06 6:15:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, ***@aol.com
writes:

<< Thomas Durward died before 1230 and after 1212, his son
Alan
died in 1275 .
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
source : Alan Young Robert the Bruce`s rivals :The Comyns 1212-1314
page 38 and Stirnet Genealogy Atholl01 >>


James thanks for those details. Does you source make any comments about
Alan's wife Marjory daughter of King Alexander II ? I'm curious if there's any
particular statement about Alan being granted Atholl before or after the
marriage. And if he was Justiciar before or after the marriage. That is, which came
first? Did Alexander raise him up and then marry him to his daughter? Or
was he already a high-ranking official ?

Will

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Will,
Yes, Young does say that Alan Durward and Marjorie of Scotland
were married in about 1244, the year Alexander II made him Justiciar of
Scotia on page 48 of The Comyns.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 11/1/06 4:50:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, ***@aol.com
writes:

<< Yes, Young does say that Alan Durward and Marjorie of
Scotland
were married in about 1244, the year Alexander II made him Justiciar of
Scotia on page 48 of The Comyns. >>

That she was married in 1244 probably narrows her birth range a bit.
Assuming her three daughters were
1) unknown married John Bisset the younger.
2) Anne married Colbron, 8th Earl of Fife born abt 1245/6 and parents of
Duncan b abt 1262
3) Ermengarde married Patrick, 9th Earl of Dunbar b [correcting CP] 1254/71
and parents of Patrick, 10th Earl born 1271/88

It would appear the three daughters, if the above is them, are in their birth
order above. However John Bisset is stated to have died "abt 1260" which
drastically reduces the amount of time for unknown to have three daughters
herself, to wit: Cecelia (Bisset) Fenton, Elizabeth (Bisset) de Bosco and Muriel
(Bisset) Graham. In fact the daughters, for chronologic reasons all must be born
between 1257 and 1261.

Will Johnson

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Will,

The date Young gives is, about 1244 - not in 1244. Alexander II
was born 24 Aug 1198; his first marriage to Joan of England was when he
was 22 years old, on 19 June 1221 (a late bloomer, I guess). Odds are
quite good, he had fathered Ermengarde and Margery prior to this
marriage .

If Margery was born say 1215 - 1220, and was married to Alan
Durward 1233 - 1238, that would open up the chronology a bit re: the
Bisset daughters. I have not seen any definitive dates re: this, but
will pass any along should I find same.

Cheers,

John

Post by W***@aol.com
<< Yes, Young does say that Alan Durward and Marjorie of
Scotland
were married in about 1244, the year Alexander II made him Justiciar of
Scotia on page 48 of The Comyns. >>
That she was married in 1244 probably narrows her birth range a bit.
Assuming her three daughters were
1) unknown married John Bisset the younger.
2) Anne married Colbron, 8th Earl of Fife born abt 1245/6 and parents of
Duncan b abt 1262
3) Ermengarde married Patrick, 9th Earl of Dunbar b [correcting CP] 1254/71
and parents of Patrick, 10th Earl born 1271/88
It would appear the three daughters, if the above is them, are in their birth
order above. However John Bisset is stated to have died "abt 1260" which
drastically reduces the amount of time for unknown to have three daughters
herself, to wit: Cecelia (Bisset) Fenton, Elizabeth (Bisset) de Bosco and Muriel
(Bisset) Graham. In fact the daughters, for chronologic reasons all must be born
between 1257 and 1261.
Will Johnson

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 11/1/06 6:00:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, ***@aol.com
writes:

<< If Margery was born say 1215 - 1220, and was married to Alan
Durward 1233 - 1238, that would open up the chronology a bit re: the
Bisset daughters. I have not seen any definitive dates re: this, but
will pass any along should I find same. >>

But remember that he was Earl of Atholl 1233-7 and so presumably 1236 or 7
was when Isabel died. So say he married Marjory in 1237. The key will be to
see what is the source they use to say that he was made Justiciar in the same
year that he married her, as was posted.

Will

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Will,

Comments interspersed.

Post by W***@aol.com
<< If Margery was born say 1215 - 1220, and was married to Alan
Durward 1233 - 1238, that would open up the chronology a bit re: the
Bisset daughters. I have not seen any definitive dates re: this, but
will pass any along should I find same. >>
But remember that he was Earl of Atholl 1233-7 and so presumably 1236 or 7
was when Isabel died. So say he married Marjory in 1237.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<< snip>>>>>>>>>>

Actually, the problem is concerning Alan's tenure as Earl. There
is a modern (according to SP) suggestion that he married Isabel, and
was Earl de jure uxoris. However, see my post of 1 November entitled
"Alan Durward and the earldom of Atholl". Matthew Hammond's
reconstruction shows Alan Durward as _probably_ 1st cousin of Isabel,
and a nephew of her father Earl Henry. This is a slight expansion on
Scots Peerage I:418, which states re: the siblings of Earl Henry,

' The Liber Vitae [of Durham] gives as sisters of Henry:
(1) Bedoch; (2) Cristina; and (3) Margaret. Bedoch
apparently was married and had a son, whose name is
written 'Kelehathonin'. Another sister, perhaps
Cristina or Margaret, seems to have married Thomas of
Lundin, the 'Ostiarius' or Doorward, as in a charter
(dated perhaps in 1202) by Earl Henry, he refers to
his nephew Colin, while Sir Colin of Lundyn appears
at a later date as witness to a charter by Conan,
son of Earl Henry, and he was a younger brother of
Alan the Durward, who held that office form 1233 to
1275. ' [3]

So, we have no actual terminus as to how early Alan Durward and
Margery were married.

Cheers,

John


The key will be to

Post by W***@aol.com
see what is the source they use to say that he was made Justiciar in the same
year that he married her, as was posted.
Will

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 11/2/2006 3:16:22 AM Pacific Standard Time,
***@aol.com writes:

Actually, the problem is concerning Alan's tenure as Earl. There
is a modern (according to SP) suggestion that he married Isabel, and
was Earl de jure uxoris


I guess this leads back to the questions
1) Was he Earl at all? and if so based on what document? and
2) What years was he Earl?

Will

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

I think we can be pretty confident that he was not Earl of Atholl in
his own right. The question is then, in whose right was he. It can
only be as the husband of a countess suo jure or as the guardian of a
minor, who was the heir of the previous earl. Later this position
became formalized a "tutor", so if you were under age when you
inherited, you had a tutor, who was usually the nearest male relative,
so most often an uncle.

In the Atholl situation it seems to me that there was no available male
relative, which is, I presume, why Durward was the guardian and used
the title of Earl, as representing the earldom during that period.
That is unless he was married to Isabel, but I am unaware of any
evidence for that. As far as I recollect most of the evidence for the
Atholl descent comes from a manuscript of Sir James Balfour of Delmilne
(d 1657), so is firstly hardly contemporary and secondly is normally
regarded as being suspect. However, if you saw the rough scribbles
which I use for my attempts to analyse genealogy, you'd think I was
pretty suspect. Perhaps you do in any case!

[W***@aol.com]

I do understand your point about Alan being possibly the first cousin of
Isabel, but Isabel herself had a son Patrick who was later 1237-42 Earl of Atholl,
so it would *seem* that Isabel would be Countess of Atholl from the death of
her husband Thomas of Galloway, 4th Count of Atholl who died between 1231 and
1234.

But at this point, perhaps Alan as a male, putatively descended from Malcolm
would have spoken up and claimed the Earldom. Of course this would also mean
that "Conan" is dead and that Forblaith's husband David de Hastings was just
hanging out silently even though he would be more in-line to be Earl than Alan
would under this scenario.

I have that this David was, in fact Earl, but I don't have the dates for that
yet. I do show he died between 1244 and 1247 and Forblaith survived him
until at least 1254.

Also electricscotland.com says that Alan "assumed" the style of Earl of Atholl

http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/earldoms/chapter1s1.htm
"...He assumed the title and style of Earl of Athole from 1233 to 1235;..."
but they say this without citation f.w.i.w.

Also in 1257 he claimed the entire Earldom of Mar, I suppose on the strength
of his grandmother Unknown Mar who married Malcolm de Lundie and was the
daughter of Gilchrist, 3rd Earl of Mar

Will

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 11/2/06 2:41:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
***@hotmail.com writes:

<< I think we can be pretty confident that he was not Earl of Atholl in
his own right. >>

Actually I think John is trying to say that he possibly *was* Earl in his own
right. Or at least that he claimed to be. Otherwise, I don't see the
significance of saying that he might have been the first cousin of Isabel.

Will

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Will,
Not might have been... Alan Durward was Isabel`s 1st cousin.
John mentioned a charter in which Colin Durward, the youngest brother of Alan
was referred to as nephew by Earl Henry of Atholl, Isabel`s father. hopefully
It is clearer then a statement that Colin was Henry`s cognatus.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 11/2/06 4:40:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, ***@aol.com
writes:

<< Colin Durward, the youngest brother of Alan
was referred to as nephew by Earl Henry of Atholl, Isabel`s father.
hopefully
It is clearer then a statement that Colin was Henry`s cognatus. >>

The turn of phrase you've used here however is stronger than that posted by
John who was quoting ONE of the versions supplied by SP which Matthew Hammond
felt most likely. The situation is not clear-cut but rather built on arguments
about who was who.

1) Earl Henry refers to his nephew Colin
2) A Sir Colin de Lundin exists, at a later date, as a witness to a charter
by Conan the son of Earl Henry.

If in fact Colin (1) is the same person as Colin (2) then Colin and Conan
would be apparently first cousins. However you'd still have to make that
assumption and also that Henry would not refer to the *husband* of a niece as a
"nephew". And perhaps a few more assumptions.

But the issue still remains that if assuming Conan is dead v.p., and that
Alan was "usurping" the Earldom, then what happened to Countess Isabel and her
sister Forblaith ?

As I posted, electricscotland states that Alan "assumed" the title or styled
himself, if you will. Doesn't really sound very clean and neat, sounds like
maybe it was messy and confrontational.

Will Johnson

[John P. Ravilious]

Thursday, 2 November, 2006



Dear Will, James, Alex, et al.,

Following is the (or a ) relevant excerpt from Matthew Hammond.

' Sometime between 11 September and 12 October 1233, Alan
Durward confirmed a gift of his father's to Arbroath abbey.
In it, he styles himself 'doorward of the lord king of
Scotland, earl of Atholl' <68>. Alexander II does not call
him 'earl of Atholl' in his confirmation of that grant,
dated at Kintore, 12 October 1233, but the king did
acknowledge Alan as earl in charters dated at Lanark,
9 January 1234, St. Andrews, Christmas Day, 1234, and
Aberdeen, 23 February 1235 <69>. What right did Alan
have as earl? As has been noted, Earl Henry had a
presumably illegitimate son named Conan, who gave
easements of his woods at 'Glenerrichidie', perhaps
Glen Errochty, and 'Tulach' to the monks of Coupar <70>.
Conan also granted to Lindores abbey timber from his
wood at 'Tulyhen' between 1219 and 1242 <71>. Sir Colin
de Lundin, Alan Durward's brother, witnessed this charter.
In a charter to St. Andrews Priory dated 1189x1198, Henry
earl of Atholl referred to a 'Colin my nephew' (Colino
nepote meo) <72>. If he was Colin de Lundin (Colin is
an uncommon name in contemporary charters), that would
make Alan Earl Henry's nephew, which would presumably
make Thomas Durward the brother-in-law of Earl Henry.
Thus, Thomas Durward's wife was probably the daughter of
Earl Malcolm by either Hextilda or Earl Henry's mother,
whose name is unknown. The latter is more likely,
because the inheritance seems to have passed to Alan
Durward, not by marriage, but as the closest male heir,
after Patrick. The king must have simply favoured a
loyal adult subject, wishing to avoid the difficulties
that could arise from a minority or a wardship. ' [1]

You will note the frequent uses of uncertainty - 'presumably',
'probably', 'more likely'. The Durward family was well connected
(with the earls of Mar earlier, and then with Alan Durward's
marriage to Margery of Scotland), but the Atholl connection remains
unproved, I fear.

Note also, Conan (son of Earl Henry) is a non-issue. He was
illegitimate, although a major Atholl landholder thanks to his
father (and possibly a good marriage). Hammond's guesses are as
good as we're going to get, given the tenure of the earldom of
Atholl in the 13th century.

Cheers

John


NOTES

[1] Matthew Hammond, The Durward family in the thirteenth century,
in Steve Boardman and Alasdair Ross, eds., The Exercise
of Power in Medieval Scotland (Dublin: Four Courts Press,
2003), pp. 127-8.
The following are some of Hammond's notes:

<68> Arbroath Liber, no. 128.
<69> Holyrood Liber, no. 93; RRS, v, no. 346; Arbroath Liber,
no. 102; Moray Reg., no. 114; RRS, vi, no. 49. Duncan's
notion that Alan was the earl of Atholl who witnessed
a 1237 letter from the barons to the pope is surely
mistaken. Alan witnessed six royal charters between
7 July 1235 and 20 Oct. 1237. In none of these does he
call himself earl (cf. Mort. Reg., i, xxxv, App. 3; Moray
Reg., no. 37 and at Carte Originales, no. 11; Glas. Reg.,
no. 174 and 175; Dunf. Reg., no. 75).
<70> C. A. Rent., no. 37. The late breviary, which sometimes
has difficulties with medieval names, mistakenly copies
Conan as 'Cumingi.'
<71> Lind. Cart., no. 73. John de Hastings, father of the
later earl of Atholl David de Hastings, is a witness
to this charter......

Post by W***@aol.com
<< Colin Durward, the youngest brother of Alan
was referred to as nephew by Earl Henry of Atholl, Isabel`s father.
hopefully
It is clearer then a statement that Colin was Henry`s cognatus. >>
The turn of phrase you've used here however is stronger than that posted by
John who was quoting ONE of the versions supplied by SP which Matthew Hammond
felt most likely. The situation is not clear-cut but rather built on arguments
about who was who.
1) Earl Henry refers to his nephew Colin
2) A Sir Colin de Lundin exists, at a later date, as a witness to a charter
by Conan the son of Earl Henry.
If in fact Colin (1) is the same person as Colin (2) then Colin and Conan
would be apparently first cousins. However you'd still have to make that
assumption and also that Henry would not refer to the *husband* of a niece as a
"nephew". And perhaps a few more assumptions.
But the issue still remains that if assuming Conan is dead v.p., and that
Alan was "usurping" the Earldom, then what happened to Countess Isabel and her
sister Forblaith ?
As I posted, electricscotland states that Alan "assumed" the title or styled
himself, if you will. Doesn't really sound very clean and neat, sounds like
maybe it was messy and confrontational.
Will Johnson

[W***@aol.com]

Thanks John for that long extract. I would say it's reading too much at
parts and too little at parts :)

For example, say the king grants Atholl to his Doreward as a male descendent.
Why was it taken away a few years alter and granted to Patrick? The
Doreward was still alive and not feeble, it doesn't make a lot of sense without a
context that the king was displeased with him in some way.

Also stating that Conan was "presumably" illegitimate is, I fear, circular
based on his non-inheritence of Atholl.

And I'm just not sure I see anything against the counter-argument that
perhaps Alan married Isabel and that Colin instead of being a blood nephew was a
nephew by marriage to a daughter of Henry's. Or some other arrangement.

But maybe there is some reasonable explanation for why the Doreward would
just bow out of Atholl in favor of a first cousin once removed who had already
been dispossessed of it (to a modern view).

Alan the Doreward was a ambitious and grasping fellow, I can't believe he'd
abandon it like that.

Will