De Coligny, De Laval, Musse, De Meullon, d'Entremont

[m***@gmail.com]

Would appreciate any help on the two lines below. They are my bridge across
the "big pond" and I'm looking for as much verification as I can find.
Gaspard de Coligny was a leader of the Protestant movement and was killed
during the St Bartholemew's Day Massacre. His father was Admiral of France
and married a Charlotte de Laval who died in 1568. Any help would be
greatly appreciated.
Chris Thomas
Descendants of Nicolas Mousche Musse
1 Nicolas MUIS b: 1540 in Gryon, Switzerland d: August 25, 1572 in
Paris, France
2 Claude Antoine Mius DE MEULLON b: 1570 in Normandy, France d: Unknown
in Savoy, France
.. +Beatrice DE COLIGNY b: 1572 in Savoy, France m: June 17, 1600 in Savoy,
France d: Unknown in Savoy, France Father: Admiral of France, Gaspard II de
Coligny Mother: Jacqueline De Montbel
3 Philippe Mius D'ENTREMONT b: November 14, 1601 in Cherbourg, Normandy
FR d: 1700 in Pobomcoup, Acadia
1640 in Calvados France (possibly as late as 1649) d: 1679 in Pobomcoup,
Acadia Father: Jacques Helie Du Tillet Mother: Francoise Faucon
or
Descendants of Gaspard de Coligny
1 [1] ADMIRAL OF FRANCE, GASPARD II DE COLIGNY b: February 16, 1519 in
Chatillon-sur-Loing, France d: August 24, 1572 in Paris, France
. +Jacqueline DE MONTBEL b: 1545 in Isere, France m: March 24, 1571 in
LaRochelle, France d: 1572 in Isere, France Father: Sebastien De Montbel,
Count d'Entremont Mother: Beatrix Escalona
2 Beatrice DE COLIGNY b: 1572 in Savoy, France d: Unknown in Savoy,
France
.. +Claude Antoine Mius DE MEULLON b: 1570 in Normandy, France m: June 17,
1600 in Savoy, France d: Unknown in Savoy, France Father: Nicolas Muis
Mother: Jeanne de Meullon
3 Philippe Mius D'ENTREMONT b: November 14, 1601 in Cherbourg, Normandy
FR d: 1700 in Pobomcoup, Acadia
1640 in Calvados France (possibly as late as 1649) d: 1679 in Pobomcoup,
Acadia Father: Jacques Helie Du Tillet Mother: Francoise Faucon
If God only gives us as much as we can handle,
He must have an awfully high opinion of me!!!
Muskegon, Michigan

Some tidbits for you to move your search along. Charlotte de Laval was Gaspard II de Coligny's first wife who died. They had a daughter Louise whose husband was killed in the St. Bartholomew Day Massacre along with Gaspard II. She later married into the Dutch House of Orange and had a son before her husband was asasinated -- first monarch ever to be killed with a hand gun. I believe it was three generations later she became the 3X great grandmother of William III, King of England, (of William and Mary.) Juicy tidbit: entire British Royal family today descends from Gaspard II and Louise (House of Orange).

Beatrice de Coligny d'Entremont is the daughter of Gaspard II's second wife Jacqueline Montbel d'Entremont. It was stipulated by Jacqueline's either father or grandfather Simon that since there were no male heirs left, any issues of Jacqueline would hence carry the name d'Entremont. Jacqueline was was separated from Beatrice at birth since she is ofthe House of Savoy which is Catholic. She converted to Protestantism through Gaspard II, who headed the Huguenot cause in France (thus his beheading as noted in death above.) Jacqueline was unable to get out of France due to her pregnancy, but Gaspard's daughter with assistance was able to travel into Switzerland along with other children under the care of Jacqueline, who became a prisoner for her crimes against the Church for the remainder of her life. Beatrice, as she grew up (raised in a convent by nuns) from time to time was able to see her mother.

Also look up the de Laval family. It, along with the Montmorency family are two of the major very wealthy, powerful and noble houses from that period in French history and before. Louise Montmorency was Gaspard II's mother. Check out, e.g. Guy de Laval and Bouchard Montmorency (#I-V)for a wider historical scope. One of the Bouchard guys mother was the daughter of William the Conqueror and a Plantagenet Princess. They go back to Charlemagne. For a fun treat, search Chateau Chamerolles outside Orleans and you will find a distant cousin, Lancelot du Lac II (Gaspard II's cousin and fellow Huguenot.) You can tour the chateau -- it is Renaissance, moated and complete with former drawbridge (now stone). Exquisite formal gardens too. The Montmorency's built the Chateau Chantilly north of Paris. Read up on Gaspard II. His headless bones were found centuries later buried into the walls of his family's former chateau during renovations. One of Gaspard's sons by first wife -- believe he wss called Andelot--check. He owned a chateau that was private for years and a couple purchased it and turned it into a chateau hotel you can stay in. No more hints. Andelot is mentioned in the hotel synopsis so that name may show up in a google search. The search and find is the fun part! Good luck.

whoops! I should add that the du Tillet's are also a major player for several centuries in France legal history. One was Bailif of the Bastile. Another advisor to Kings. They wrote volumes of works that aided defining written laws of France. Once you "cross the pond" follow footsteps to Jean II Du Tillet Baron de Nogent. He had good connections.

Au revoir!

[Denis Beauregard]

Would appreciate any help on the two lines below. They are my bridge across
the "big pond" and I'm looking for as much verification as I can find.
Gaspard de Coligny was a leader of the Protestant movement and was killed
during the St Bartholemew's Day Massacre. His father was Admiral of France
and married a Charlotte de Laval who died in 1568. Any help would be
greatly appreciated.
Chris Thomas
Descendants of Nicolas Mousche Musse
1 Nicolas MUIS b: 1540 in Gryon, Switzerland d: August 25, 1572 in
Paris, France
2 Claude Antoine Mius DE MEULLON b: 1570 in Normandy, France d: Unknown
in Savoy, France
.. +Beatrice DE COLIGNY b: 1572 in Savoy, France m: June 17, 1600 in Savoy,
France d: Unknown in Savoy, France Father: Admiral of France, Gaspard II de
Coligny Mother: Jacqueline De Montbel
3 Philippe Mius D'ENTREMONT b: November 14, 1601 in Cherbourg, Normandy
FR d: 1700 in Pobomcoup, Acadia
1640 in Calvados France (possibly as late as 1649) d: 1679 in Pobomcoup,
Acadia Father: Jacques Helie Du Tillet Mother: Francoise Faucon

All this is non-sense and not documented. No reliable source shows
parents for Philippe Mius or Madeleine Helie. It is useless to add
parents to fictive parents...


Denis

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Post by Denis Beauregard

Would appreciate any help on the two lines below. They are my bridge across
the "big pond" and I'm looking for as much verification as I can find.
Gaspard de Coligny was a leader of the Protestant movement and was killed
during the St Bartholemew's Day Massacre. His father was Admiral of France
and married a Charlotte de Laval who died in 1568. Any help would be
greatly appreciated.
Chris Thomas
Descendants of Nicolas Mousche Musse
1 Nicolas MUIS b: 1540 in Gryon, Switzerland d: August 25, 1572 in
Paris, France
2 Claude Antoine Mius DE MEULLON b: 1570 in Normandy, France d: Unknown
in Savoy, France
.. +Beatrice DE COLIGNY b: 1572 in Savoy, France m: June 17, 1600 in Savoy,
France d: Unknown in Savoy, France Father: Admiral of France, Gaspard II de
Coligny Mother: Jacqueline De Montbel
3 Philippe Mius D'ENTREMONT b: November 14, 1601 in Cherbourg, Normandy
FR d: 1700 in Pobomcoup, Acadia
1640 in Calvados France (possibly as late as 1649) d: 1679 in Pobomcoup,
Acadia Father: Jacques Helie Du Tillet Mother: Francoise Faucon

All this is non-sense and not documented. No reliable source shows
parents for Philippe Mius or Madeleine Helie. It is useless to add
parents to fictive parents...
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
Sur cédérom à 1785 - On CD-ROM to 1785

I know it has been more than 7 months and half since this, but as the thread was revived, I should note Wikitree says at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mius-18 that the parentage is a theory.

[j***@gmail.com]

Absolument Denis je pense qu'il semble que le pere anonyme a été adopté par la dame de Montbel d'Entremont, et si Gaspard de Coligny avait un garde nommé Mius qui est mort avec lui lors du massacre de la Saint-Barthélemy, alors c'est la raison. Le petit-fils de Gaspard de Coligny n'irait pas vivre dans un foret à travers l'atlantique.

Ils ont également trouvé la dame Madeleine Helie du Tillet avec un inventaire de bibliothèque longtemps après que Philippe Mius et son épouse du même nom se soient installés en Acadie.

Merci pour tout votre travail de généalogie Denis...

[Denis Beauregard]

Post by j***@gmail.com
Absolument Denis je pense qu'il semble que le pere anonyme a été adopté par la dame de Montbel d'Entremont, et si Gaspard de Coligny avait un garde nommé Mius qui est mort avec lui lors du massacre de la Saint-Barthélemy, alors c'est la raison. Le petit-fils de Gaspard de Coligny n'irait pas vivre dans un foret à travers

l'atlantique.

Post by j***@gmail.com
Ils ont également trouvé la dame Madeleine Helie du Tillet avec un inventaire de bibliothèque longtemps après que Philippe Mius et son épouse du même nom se soient installés en Acadie.
Merci pour tout votre travail de généalogie Denis...

J'ai beaucoup de difficulté à accepter une hypothèse quand on trouve
une famille alors qu'on ne connaît ni le nom des parents, ni le lieu
d'origine de la personne en question.

On a la signature ADNy des Mius, ceci à partir de descendants de ses
fils Jacques et Abraham. Il faudrait qu'un descendant en ligne
masculine de la famille française présumée soit aussi testé et qu'on
compare les résultats.

Je pense qu'on devrait oublier complètement cette fausse piste. Je
veux bien qu'on trouve une Madeleine Hélie en France, mais quelle
preuve qu'elle est la mère de Philippe ou l'épouse d'un Mius ?

Je chercherais plutôt du côté de Dieppe et parmi les gens ordinaires.
Il faudrait tester un Dieppois avec un nom ressemblant vaguement à
Mius ou Miousse.


Denis

[Owen Caddell]

This is how it went. I was recently reading a book about Gaspard de Coligny written by A.W. Whitehead (citation at bottom.) This book contains a chart confirming that Gaspard ll de Coligny and Jacquelin d'Entremonts, sole heiress of the d'Entremont line, had a daughter Beatrice in 1572 (born after Coligny's death) who married Claude, Baron de Meuillon. This Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon, was the son of Nicolas Muss and his wife, Jeanne de Meuillon.

Coligny, Jeanne de Meuillon, and Nicolas Muss were all slaughtered for their Protestant faith at or around the events of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. This left Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon an orphan as a toddler. He was then adopted by Jacquelin d'Entremonts. The reasons for this adoption are twofold - Jacquelin felt guilty over the fact that Claude's father Nicolas had died protecting her late husband Coligny. Jacquelin also had no male heirs for the d'Entremont line as her family had failed to produce any. She thus struck some sort of agreement that her now adopted son, Claude Antoine, which declared that any children he had would carry on the d'Entremont name. Claude proceeded to marry Jacquelin's genetic daughter Beatrix, confirmed by W.A. Whitehead. This is why Philippe, one of their sons, carries both the Mius and the d'Entremont name.

As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic. What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents being murdered for their faith?

Arthur Whiston Whitehead, Gaspard de Coligny: Admiral of France. (London: Methuen & Co, 1892).

[[e-mail]]

Post by Owen Caddell
This is how it went. I was recently reading a book about Gaspard de Coligny written by A.W. Whitehead (citation at bottom.) This book contains a chart confirming that Gaspard ll de Coligny and Jacquelin d'Entremonts, sole heiress of the d'Entremont line, had a daughter Beatrice in 1572 (born after Coligny's death) who married Claude, Baron de Meuillon. This Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon, was the son of Nicolas Muss and his wife, Jeanne de Meuillon.
Coligny, Jeanne de Meuillon, and Nicolas Muss were all slaughtered for their Protestant faith at or around the events of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. This left Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon an orphan as a toddler. He was then adopted by Jacquelin d'Entremonts. The reasons for this adoption are twofold - Jacquelin felt guilty over the fact that Claude's father Nicolas had died protecting her late husband Coligny. Jacquelin also had no male heirs for the d'Entremont line as her family had failed to produce any. She thus struck some sort of agreement that her now adopted son, Claude Antoine, which declared that any children he had would carry on the d'Entremont name. Claude proceeded to marry Jacquelin's genetic daughter Beatrix, confirmed by W.A. Whitehead. This is why Philippe, one of their sons, carries both the Mius and the d'Entremont name.
As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic. What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents being murdered for their faith?
Arthur Whiston Whitehead, Gaspard de Coligny: Admiral of France. (London: Methuen & Co, 1892).

Ah, so "a book" of unknown quality, with theories which may be backed by evidence, but going by the Muss/Mius bit, likely not reliable.

[Owen Caddell]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Owen Caddell
This is how it went. I was recently reading a book about Gaspard de Coligny written by A.W. Whitehead (citation at bottom.) This book contains a chart confirming that Gaspard ll de Coligny and Jacquelin d'Entremonts, sole heiress of the d'Entremont line, had a daughter Beatrice in 1572 (born after Coligny's death) who married Claude, Baron de Meuillon. This Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon, was the son of Nicolas Muss and his wife, Jeanne de Meuillon.
Coligny, Jeanne de Meuillon, and Nicolas Muss were all slaughtered for their Protestant faith at or around the events of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. This left Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon an orphan as a toddler. He was then adopted by Jacquelin d'Entremonts. The reasons for this adoption are twofold - Jacquelin felt guilty over the fact that Claude's father Nicolas had died protecting her late husband Coligny. Jacquelin also had no male heirs for the d'Entremont line as her family had failed to produce any. She thus struck some sort of agreement that her now adopted son, Claude Antoine, which declared that any children he had would carry on the d'Entremont name. Claude proceeded to marry Jacquelin's genetic daughter Beatrix, confirmed by W.A. Whitehead. This is why Philippe, one of their sons, carries both the Mius and the d'Entremont name.
As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic. What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents being murdered for their faith?
Arthur Whiston Whitehead, Gaspard de Coligny: Admiral of France. (London: Methuen & Co, 1892).

Ah, so "a book" of unknown quality, with theories which may be backed by evidence, but going by the Muss/Mius bit, likely not reliable.

lmao the muss/muise name has changed and been varied so many times id love to hear your half baked theories about why that is

[Owen Caddell]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Owen Caddell
This is how it went. I was recently reading a book about Gaspard de Coligny written by A.W. Whitehead (citation at bottom.) This book contains a chart confirming that Gaspard ll de Coligny and Jacquelin d'Entremonts, sole heiress of the d'Entremont line, had a daughter Beatrice in 1572 (born after Coligny's death) who married Claude, Baron de Meuillon. This Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon, was the son of Nicolas Muss and his wife, Jeanne de Meuillon.
Coligny, Jeanne de Meuillon, and Nicolas Muss were all slaughtered for their Protestant faith at or around the events of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. This left Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon an orphan as a toddler. He was then adopted by Jacquelin d'Entremonts. The reasons for this adoption are twofold - Jacquelin felt guilty over the fact that Claude's father Nicolas had died protecting her late husband Coligny. Jacquelin also had no male heirs for the d'Entremont line as her family had failed to produce any. She thus struck some sort of agreement that her now adopted son, Claude Antoine, which declared that any children he had would carry on the d'Entremont name. Claude proceeded to marry Jacquelin's genetic daughter Beatrix, confirmed by W.A. Whitehead. This is why Philippe, one of their sons, carries both the Mius and the d'Entremont name.
As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic. What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents being murdered for their faith?
Arthur Whiston Whitehead, Gaspard de Coligny: Admiral of France. (London: Methuen & Co, 1892).

Ah, so "a book" of unknown quality, with theories which may be backed by evidence, but going by the Muss/Mius bit, likely not reliable.

"Ah, so "a book" of unknown quality" Hey I provided the citation. Do you know anything about works cited or academic citations? "A book of unknown quality?" No offense but wtf does "unknown quality" mean? You understand scholarly publications and internet articles are two different things, ya? Also, the Muss/Muise name has changed and been varied so many times id love to hear your half baked theories about why that is.

[Denis Beauregard]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 21:29:12 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell

Post by Owen Caddell
As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the

pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic. What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents being
murdered for their faith?

A lot of Mius/D'Entremont tested their DNA and thus far, no
French link.

Muise is not a "modern" pronunciation but adaptation to English.

Muir is a common English name and its sounds like m-ee-your, so
similar to muise sounding like m-ee-youz, not far from French
m-ee-ouss.

http://www.geopatronyme.com/

49 occurences in France, 44 in Seine-Maritime, which is Normandy.
It can be from descendants of Acadians more than cousins of Acadians.

https://gbkcouples.geneabank.org/nom/?name=mius&place=&start=&end=

First occurence in this database in Puy de Dôme, which is more South
of France.

5 for a mother, Gaspard BUNEL m Marie MIUS before 1675 (3) and
2 where the godmother is Marie Mius.

Also, a lot of Miousse or Musse. But there is no evidence the
Mius could be Musse.


Denis

[Owen Caddell]

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 21:29:12 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell

Post by Owen Caddell
As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the

pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic. What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents being
murdered for their faith?
A lot of Mius/D'Entremont tested their DNA and thus far, no
French link.
Muise is not a "modern" pronunciation but adaptation to English.
Muir is a common English name and its sounds like m-ee-your, so
similar to muise sounding like m-ee-youz, not far from French
m-ee-ouss.
http://www.geopatronyme.com/
49 occurences in France, 44 in Seine-Maritime, which is Normandy.
It can be from descendants of Acadians more than cousins of Acadians.
https://gbkcouples.geneabank.org/nom/?name=mius&place=&start=&end=
First occurence in this database in Puy de Dôme, which is more South
of France.
5 for a mother, Gaspard BUNEL m Marie MIUS before 1675 (3) and
2 where the godmother is Marie Mius.
Also, a lot of Miousse or Musse. But there is no evidence the
Mius could be Musse.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

Thanks for a bunch of contradicting googled nonsense that helped nobody. There is zero evidence linking "Muss" to "Mius"? Right. Not like Nicolas Muss was best friends with the husband of Jacquelin d'Entremont. Slow clap for you.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 21:29:12 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell

Post by Owen Caddell
As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the

pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic. What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents being
murdered for their faith?
A lot of Mius/D'Entremont tested their DNA and thus far, no
French link.
Muise is not a "modern" pronunciation but adaptation to English.
Muir is a common English name and its sounds like m-ee-your, so
similar to muise sounding like m-ee-youz, not far from French
m-ee-ouss.
http://www.geopatronyme.com/
49 occurences in France, 44 in Seine-Maritime, which is Normandy.
It can be from descendants of Acadians more than cousins of Acadians.
https://gbkcouples.geneabank.org/nom/?name=mius&place=&start=&end=
First occurence in this database in Puy de Dôme, which is more South
of France.
5 for a mother, Gaspard BUNEL m Marie MIUS before 1675 (3) and
2 where the godmother is Marie Mius.
Also, a lot of Miousse or Musse. But there is no evidence the
Mius could be Musse.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

Thanks for a bunch of contradicting googled nonsense that helped nobody. There is zero evidence linking "Muss" to "Mius"? Right. Not like Nicolas Muss was best friends with the husband of Jacquelin d'Entremont. Slow clap for you.

Congratulations for proving that you aren't interested in expert opinion. Or evidence.

[jason bateman]

I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts about when the Mius d'Entremont family would have converted from being Huguenots to Catholics. My assumption that Philippe was Huguenot is based on the fact that his (as most believe) grandfather Nicolas was the German translator for a very powerful Protestant Admiral Coligny. I also believe Philippe may have left France in the first place due to Catholic pressure. That Philippe was a good friend of Charles de La Tour is another indication of his being a member of the Religion. At the very least Charles' father Claude was a Protestant whom sided with Scottish in the New World. My belief that the present d'Entremonts are Catholic stems from the fact that the famed honourable historian goes by "Father" Clarence d'Entremont and to my knowledge to call oneself "Father" is rather Catholic. Said d'Entremont, along with the lovely Bernice who runs the Pubnico museum, seem very uninterested in discussing pre-settlement Mius d'Entremont history nor the possibility that Philippe is actually a descendant of Admiral Coligny. I understand that Philippe's youngest son Philippe ll married and lived amongst the Mi'kmaq, this family birthing many important Mi'kmaq chiefs over the proceeding centuries bearing the surname "Muise." I also understand that the Mi'kmaq are mostly a Roman Catholic people since European invasion. My question is, when did the conversion of Mius d'Entremonts from Huguenot to Catholic occur and under what pressures? Thanks guys.

[jason bateman]

Also, if anyone has a download link to Acadian Spirit: The Legacy of Philippe Mius d'Entremont, please share!!

[Denis Beauregard]

On Fri, 27 May 2022 23:00:41 -0700 (PDT), jason bateman

Post by jason bateman
I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts about when the Mius d'Entremont family would have converted from being Huguenots to Catholics.

unsupported fact. THere is no proof Mius converted from Protestant
(Huguenots are protestants who left France, so you can't convert
from huguenot and remain in France while you can convert between
catholic and protestant).

Post by jason bateman
My assumption that Philippe was Huguenot is based on the fact that his (as most believe) grandfather Nicolas was the German translator for a very powerful Protestant Admiral Coligny.

But there is no relationship here.

Post by jason bateman
I also believe Philippe may have left France in the first place due to Catholic pressure. That Philippe was a good friend of Charles de La Tour is another indication of his being a member of the Religion. At the very least Charles' father Claude was a Protestant whom sided with Scottish in the New World.

Again, based on something not proven. Claude was not a protestant but
decided to stay in Acadia, perhaps living with Natives.

Post by jason bateman
My belief that the present d'Entremonts are Catholic stems from the fact that the famed honourable historian goes by "Father" Clarence d'Entremont and to my knowledge to call oneself "Father" is rather Catholic. Said d'Entremont, along with the lovely Bernice who runs the Pubnico museum, seem very uninterested in discussing

pre-settlement Mius d'Entremont history nor

Post by jason bateman
the possibility that Philippe is actually a descendant of Admiral Coligny.

But there is no basis for that, absolutely no basis. 2 unrelated
families.

Post by jason bateman
I understand that Philippe's youngest son Philippe ll married and lived amongst the Mi'kmaq, this family birthing many important Mi'kmaq chiefs over the proceeding centuries bearing the surname "Muise." I also understand that the Mi'kmaq are mostly a Roman Catholic people since European invasion. My question is, when did the

conversion of Mius d'Entremonts from Huguenot to Catholic occur and under what pressures? Thanks guys.

This "conversion" can't be found because it didn't exist.

Please use facts to argue.


Denis

[Denis Beauregard]

On Fri, 27 May 2022 23:00:41 -0700 (PDT), jason bateman

Post by jason bateman
I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts about when the Mius d'Entremont family would have converted from being Huguenots to Catholics.

There is a lot of Mius who tested their Y DNA. So, if you can find
a French candidate to compare, this question will be answered...

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Mius-dEntremont?iframe=ycolorized


Denis

P.S. I don't know who is that Mius from Normandy. I took over the
Mius project because it was orphan.

[jason bateman]

Hello Denis thank you for your reply.

I am wondering if you have read Fortune and La Tour by Marjorie Macdonald? She goes over in detail Claude's Protestant leanings and Charles' relationship with Protestant New English, who tolerated him and fought alongside him against the Catholic d'Aulnay, tolerating La Tour due to his Protestant leanings. As well, Charles' second daughter Antoinette who had the beautiful singing voice was enlisted into a Protestant Convent by Charles upon her arrival in France. I would like to see any proof you have that Charles was Catholic? As far as Claude's life in Acadia, it is actually well-documented that he lived in a small yet comfortable shack alongside Charles outside of his fort after his humiliating defeat. What exactly is not proven? That he sided with Scottish? That is surely proven if you read any documentation. Again, siding with Protestant Scots is something a Catholic would likely not do. The reason Charles didn't give up his fort and join the Scottish was his loyalty to the French language, not due to his allegiance to Catholicism.

I am wondering if you are aware that Jacquelin d'Entremonts is the second wife of Admiral Coligny? Do you suppose this is, in fact, not someone that the d'Entremonts of Acadia have any genealogical association with?

Thanks Denis

[Denis Beauregard]

On Sat, 28 May 2022 16:00:02 -0700 (PDT), jason bateman

Post by jason bateman
Hello Denis thank you for your reply.
I am wondering if you have read Fortune and La Tour by Marjorie Macdonald? She goes over in detail Claude's Protestant leanings and Charles' relationship with Protestant New English, who tolerated him and fought alongside him against the Catholic d'Aulnay, tolerating La Tour due to his Protestant leanings. As well, Charles' second

daughter Antoinette who had the beautiful singing voice was enlisted into a Protestant Convent by Charles upon her arrival in France. I would like to see any proof you have that Charles was Catholic? As far as Claude's life in Acadia, it is actually well-documented that he lived in a small yet comfortable shack alongside Charles
outside of his fort after his humiliating defeat. What exactly is not proven? That he sided with Scottish? That is surely proven if you read any documentation. Again, siding with Protestant Scots is something a Catholic would likely not do. The reason Charles didn't give up his fort and join the Scottish was his loyalty to the

Post by jason bateman
French language, not due to his allegiance to Catholicism.
I am wondering if you are aware that Jacquelin d'Entremonts is the second wife of Admiral Coligny? Do you suppose this is, in fact, not someone that the d'Entremonts of Acadia have any genealogical association with?

All that Coligny hypothesis is from the time when there were almost
no databases for commoners so that people focussed on the only things
they can found, nobility. But there are now databases. So in Normandy,
there is:


Pierre Mius, born 1667, from
Sassetot-le-Mauconduit, 76663, Seine-Maritime
Saint-Martin-aux-Buneaux, 76, Seine Maritime

https://gw.geneanet.org/blackfoot27?lang=en&pz=raymond+rene&nz=krausse&p=pierre&n=mius&oc=1
https://gw.geneanet.org/polo541?lang=en&pz=clement+philibert&nz=fayolle&p=guillaume&n=mius

Charles Mius born 1663 (father is Letellier, typo ?)
Saint-Martin-aux-Buneaux, 76, Seine Maritime
https://gw.geneanet.org/francoise39?lang=fr&iz=0&p=charles&n=mius&oc=1

These towns are not indexed in Geneabank but some are on Geneanet.

Saint-Martin-aux-Buneaux
5 Mius born in 1600-1650 but many gaps.

Sassetot-le-Mauconduit
The geneanet extract is from 1793 only

So, before looking for some prestigious ancestor, you should focus
on records available. There are many different Mius families in
Normandy when Philippe was born.


Denis

[Owen Caddell]

Hello Denis

Why do you suppose Philippe would have been given the title of Lieutenant Governor of Acadie and given such a large strip of land (Pobomcoup), if he was not some sort of prestigious person?

Thanks Denis

[Denis Beauregard]

On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:22:55 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell

Post by jason bateman
Hello Denis
Why do you suppose Philippe would have been given the title of Lieutenant Governor of Acadie and given such a large strip of land (Pobomcoup), if he was not some sort of prestigious person?

There is no provable nobility for many people in New France, where
early documents were not destroyed, so why not ?

For example, Champlain, Louis Hebert (first colonist with a family),
Pierre Boucher de Boucherville, etc.

My own ancestor, Jarret de Beauregard, has a "fief" which is a noble
land, without any nobility while his half-brother, Jarret de Verchères
and his uncle Pecaudy de Contrecoeur have traces in France but no
proven nobility either. There are seigneuries de Verchèrs and de
Contrecoeur. Their "noble" ancestor was only a sergeant.

That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont.


Denis

[Owen Caddell]

I'm sorry I really tried to leave this alone but I just can't: You are really hypothesizing about a region in France called Pobomcoup? I'm sorry but I can't put this politely - that is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Pobomcoup is quite obviously a Mi'kmaq word, if you studied their language for about five minutes that would become obvious, Pogomkook is written on Samuel de Champlain's early maps of Acadie. Like that is just such a stupid thing to say to the point where I feel you have some sort of clear bias against the d'Entremonts, perhaps you are a descendant of Charles d'Aulnay and carry some sort of bitterness over the fact that your ancestor was a puke and a dishonourable liar. I also can't let go how foolish you sound arguing Charles La Tour was Catholic. Literally every book about the man states clearly he was a Protestant. Like have you ever even read a book? Or are you just interested in attempting to sabotage the d'Entremont name? You are a disgrace to the whole concept of research my friend.

[Denis Beauregard]

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:33:27 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell

Post by Owen Caddell
I'm sorry I really tried to leave this alone but I just can't: You are really hypothesizing about a region in France called Pobomcoup? I'm sorry but I can't put this politely - that is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Pobomcoup is quite obviously a Mi'kmaq word, if you studied their language for about five minutes that would

become obvious, Pogomkook is written on Samuel de Champlain's early maps of Acadie. Like that is just such a stupid thing to say to the point where I feel you have some sort of clear bias against the d'Entremonts, perhaps you are a descendant of Charles d'Aulnay and carry some sort of bitterness over the fact that your ancestor was
a puke and a dishonourable liar. I also can't let go how foolish you sound arguing Charles La Tour was Catholic. Literally every book about the man states clearly he was a Protestant. Like have you ever even read a book? Or are you just interested in attempting to sabotage the d'Entremont name? You are a disgrace to the whole
concept

Post by Owen Caddell
of research my friend.

Not only you don't cite the article to which you answer, but you
forget about the obvious. There are Mius in Normandy in France so
Philippe Mius d'Entremont is a Mius from Normandy (confirmed by
Y DNA) and not related to some Musse family.


Denis

[Pierrette Dentremont]

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:33:27 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell

Post by Owen Caddell
I'm sorry I really tried to leave this alone but I just can't: You are really hypothesizing about a region in France called Pobomcoup? I'm sorry but I can't put this politely - that is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Pobomcoup is quite obviously a Mi'kmaq word, if you studied their language for about five minutes that would

become obvious, Pogomkook is written on Samuel de Champlain's early maps of Acadie. Like that is just such a stupid thing to say to the point where I feel you have some sort of clear bias against the d'Entremonts, perhaps you are a descendant of Charles d'Aulnay and carry some sort of bitterness over the fact that your ancestor was
a puke and a dishonourable liar. I also can't let go how foolish you sound arguing Charles La Tour was Catholic. Literally every book about the man states clearly he was a Protestant. Like have you ever even read a book? Or are you just interested in attempting to sabotage the d'Entremont name? You are a disgrace to the whole
concept

Post by Owen Caddell
of research my friend.

Not only you don't cite the article to which you answer, but you
forget about the obvious. There are Mius in Normandy in France so
Philippe Mius d'Entremont is a Mius from Normandy (confirmed by
Y DNA) and not related to some Musse family.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

Wow, what a thread!

After reading, I think that Denis is mostly correct (not sure what the "lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont" is though. Pobomcoup/Pogomkook/Pomcoup/Pubnico is of Mi'kmaq root.).

If we could find some European descendants of the old Mius line, that would be great. Before, hopping to the nobility link which seems to more of a stretch, if not a dead end. A previous post referred to a Smith, but the idea came about through the research of H. Léander d'Entremont (the uncle of F. Clarence d'Entremont). However, François Virginie Bon, comte d'Entremont et de Montbel (1601 - 1671) seems to have been the actual son of Claude-Antoine d'Albon/Bon/de Meuillon and Béatrice de Coligny.

From quite a phew d'Entremont relatives (direct to Philippe Mius d'Entremont) Y-DNA haplogroup is 'E1b1b1'. Finding more in Europe to match would be needed. I think one match was found, a Mius, with a link tracing pre-deportation to Haute-Normandie. More mtDNA would be needed I think (not quite current on this).

I hope that helps clear up some confusion, though I doubt it will change the wiki and hundreds or other pages ;)

Pierrette d'Entremont

[Denis Beauregard]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:57:31 -0800 (PST), Pierrette Dentremont

Post by Pierrette Dentremont

Post by Denis Beauregard
Not only you don't cite the article to which you answer, but you
forget about the obvious. There are Mius in Normandy in France so
Philippe Mius d'Entremont is a Mius from Normandy (confirmed by
Y DNA) and not related to some Musse family.

If we could find some European descendants of the old Mius line, that would be great. Before, hopping to the nobility link which seems to more of a stretch, if not a dead end. A previous post referred to a Smith, but the idea came about through the research of H. Léander d'Entremont (the uncle of F. Clarence d'Entremont). However,

François Virginie Bon, comte d'Entremont et de Montbel (1601 - 1671) seems to have been the actual son of Claude-Antoine d'Albon/Bon/de Meuillon and Béatrice de Coligny.

You should read the whole message. See the part I kept. THERE IS A
MIUS FROM NORMANDY who is matching the Y DNA.

Post by Pierrette Dentremont
From quite a phew d'Entremont relatives (direct to Philippe Mius d'Entremont) Y-DNA haplogroup is 'E1b1b1'. Finding more in Europe to match would be needed. I think one match was found, a Mius, with a link tracing pre-deportation to Haute-Normandie. More mtDNA would be needed I think (not quite current on this).

mtDNA won't help to confirm a male lineage but there is known mtDNA
for Madeleine Helie. But a female lineage is harder to find as the
name is changed for each generation.


Denis

[Peter de Loriol Chandieu]

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:57:31 -0800 (PST), Pierrette Dentremont

Post by Pierrette Dentremont

Post by Denis Beauregard
Not only you don't cite the article to which you answer, but you
forget about the obvious. There are Mius in Normandy in France so
Philippe Mius d'Entremont is a Mius from Normandy (confirmed by
Y DNA) and not related to some Musse family.

If we could find some European descendants of the old Mius line, that would be great. Before, hopping to the nobility link which seems to more of a stretch, if not a dead end. A previous post referred to a Smith, but the idea came about through the research of H. Léander d'Entremont (the uncle of F. Clarence d'Entremont). However,

François Virginie Bon, comte d'Entremont et de Montbel (1601 - 1671) seems to have been the actual son of Claude-Antoine d'Albon/Bon/de Meuillon and Béatrice de Coligny.
You should read the whole message. See the part I kept. THERE IS A
MIUS FROM NORMANDY who is matching the Y DNA.

Post by Pierrette Dentremont
From quite a phew d'Entremont relatives (direct to Philippe Mius d'Entremont) Y-DNA haplogroup is 'E1b1b1'. Finding more in Europe to match would be needed. I think one match was found, a Mius, with a link tracing pre-deportation to Haute-Normandie. More mtDNA would be needed I think (not quite current on this).

mtDNA won't help to confirm a male lineage but there is known mtDNA
for Madeleine Helie. But a female lineage is harder to find as the
name is changed for each generation.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

This is what I have:
La qualité d’écuyer et le titre de sieur d’Entremont figurent dans les lettres de concession de Pobomcoup (aujourd'hui Pubnico en Nouvelle Écosse) ainsi que sur l’Abrégé du rôle des familles de l’Acadie fait par le sieur Randin, envoyé de Monseigneur Colbert, de Québec, le 8 novembre 1671.

François Edmé Rameau de Saint-Père, Une colonie féodale en Amérique, l'Acadie, 1604-1881, vol. 2, p. 412, cite les lettres du 17 juillet 1653 par lesquelles le gouverneur d’Acadie Charles de Saint-Etienne, seigneur de La Tour accorda le fief Pobomcoup à Philippe Mius d’Entremont « Fut présent et comparu personnellement Haut et puissant seigneur, Charles de Saint-Etienne, seigneur de La Tour, chevallier des ordres du Roy, et son lieutenant-général dans toute l'intendue des terres, illes et côtes de l'Acadie, pays de Nouvelle France, et propriétaire du lieux dit Vieux Logis, autrement Pipegueniche, suivant et conformément à la concession qu'il en a eu, daté du quinsième janvier mil six cent trente six : [...] le reçu [...] et volontairement a reconnue et confessé avoir par ces présents, baillé et délaissé à perpétuité à titre de baronnage et fief noble, ayant justice haute, moyenne et basse relevant directement du dit lieu nommé le Vieux Logis, la dite côte d'Acadie, comme fief dominant : A noble homme Philippe Mieus, écuyer, sieur d'Entremont, et damoiselle Magdeleine, sa femme, et noble homme Pierre Ferrand et damoiselle Mathurine Sicard, sa femme, à ce présent et acceptant pour eux, leurs hoirs et ayant cause ; en vertu du pouvoir à nous donné par Sa Majesté et au désire de ses lettres patants, en datte du vingt cinq février mil six cent cinquante, et, comme aussi en considération du mérite particulier des dits sieurs d'Entremont et Ferrand et des bons et fidèles services qu'ils nous ont personnellement randus.

Avoir donné et octroyé, donnons et octroyons par ses présents aux dits sieurs d’Entremont et Ferrant et à leurs ditte femmes, par égale participation, l'étendue d'une lieux de large sur quatre de profondeur, au lieu dit Pombkoup, pour en jouir par les dits impétriens, leurs successeurs et ayant cause, en toutes propriété, justice et seigneurie à perpétuité, aux dits titres de baronnage, fief noble, relevant du dite lieu, le Vieux Logis, moyannant et à la charge du à l'hommage, et d'un quchipohy de castor, avec deux bouquets, aux jours et fêtes de saint Jean-Baptiste, pour chacun an et au coutume de la prévauté et vicomté de Paris.

Jouirons aussi les dits sieurs d'Entremont et Ferrant, leurs hoirs, successeurs et ayant droit et cause à perpétuité des chasses, à condition d'habiter et faire valoire les dites lieux à eux accordés, et ce faissant le dite seigneur de La Tour es dits noms a jourdy saisy et mis en possession les dits sieurs d'Entremont et Ferrant et leurs dites femmes, des dites terres, fief et baronnage de Pombkoup, promettant et obligeant chacun au droit soy renoncent. Fait passé au fort du Port Royal le 17e jour de juillet 1653, en présence de témoins cy après ; ont signé : Charles de Saint-Etienne, Emmanuel Le Borgne [ sera à son tour gouverneur d’Acadie entre 1657 et 1667], De Saint-Mas, Philippe Mieus d'Entremont, Pierre Ferrant, Magdeleine Helis, Mathurine Sicard, La Verdure ».

I descend from the Montbel d'Entremont as well as the de Coligny, if it is of any interest. My family was Bressane.
I was of the same opinion as the late Addams Reitweisner on the Mius connection to the dynasties of the Montbel and Coligny. His family was from Normandy, not form the Eastern part of France. the original grantor was also 'sieur' d'Entremonts which may refer to a piece of land in Acadie, not the 8000 odd hectares of Land of the baronie d'Entremont in Bresse.
Peter

[Denis Beauregard]

On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 09:21:09 -0800 (PST), Peter de Loriol Chandieu

Post by Peter de Loriol Chandieu
I descend from the Montbel d'Entremont as well as the de Coligny, if it is of any interest. My family was Bressane.
I was of the same opinion as the late Addams Reitweisner on the Mius connection to the dynasties of the Montbel and Coligny. His family was from Normandy, not form the Eastern part of France. the original grantor was also 'sieur' d'Entremonts which may refer to a piece of land in Acadie, not the 8000 odd hectares of Land of the

baronie d'Entremont in Bresse.

Indeed, nothing links the Mius to the Coligny except that
"d'Entremont" title. And Y DNA is linking the Mius to a French
family (while I am still trying to find some French record about
the French cousins).


Denis

[Owen Caddell]

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 09:21:09 -0800 (PST), Peter de Loriol Chandieu

Post by Peter de Loriol Chandieu
I descend from the Montbel d'Entremont as well as the de Coligny, if it is of any interest. My family was Bressane.
I was of the same opinion as the late Addams Reitweisner on the Mius connection to the dynasties of the Montbel and Coligny. His family was from Normandy, not form the Eastern part of France. the original grantor was also 'sieur' d'Entremonts which may refer to a piece of land in Acadie, not the 8000 odd hectares of Land of the

baronie d'Entremont in Bresse.
Indeed, nothing links the Mius to the Coligny except that
"d'Entremont" title. And Y DNA is linking the Mius to a French
family (while I am still trying to find some French record about
the French cousins).
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

You're all naive. Sure, there is no official documentation linking Mius to Coligny, although it is 100% worth speculating about the d'Entremont / Coligny Huguenot marriage. You're all really missing the point which is contained in the Huguenot / Catholic differentiation. For Denis to say Philippe was not a noble is one of many laughable allegations on his part. At least two of his sons married Charles La Tour's children. Charles La tour was the Governor of Acadie. Open your eyes. This also proves flat-out Philippe was a Huguenot. Every single book about Charles La Tour states clearly this man was Huguenot, whatever the demented "expert" Beauregard says. (with no sources). So why would Philippe and Charles share a kinship to this degree if they were not Huguenot? Guess who else is Huguenot ooohhh of course the d'Entremonts who basically married THE Huguenot Admiral Coligny. The d'Entremont and La Tour house shared a kinship in France before settling in Acadia. Why would Charles La Tour and d'Aulnay have such beef if they were not Huguenot / Catholic respectively? Why would Charles enlist Protestant Englishmen to fight Catholic d'Aulnay? Open your eyes, people. Denis has a self-interest in sabotaging the d'Entremont name, it is quite obvious. Do not believe his lies. You are royalty.

[Denis Beauregard]

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 21:10:10 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell
<***@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

Insulting is your only response when you have definitely no answer.

Plonk.


Denis

[Peter de Loriol Chandieu]

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 21:10:10 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell
Insulting is your only response when you have definitely no answer.
Plonk.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

one can theorise as much and as long as anything, but the answer remains that just being called Mius d'Entremont does not proclaim ANY relation to The dynastic family of Montbel d'Entremonts.
Denis is an acknowledge expert on Canadian genealogy. He has, moreover, been proved right 99% of the time, if not 100%. Some many years ago in the heyday of Soc Gen medieval he was a linch-pin of the group and remains so. It bodes ill of anyone who cannot prove without , at the very least, secondary sources backed by primary sources.

[Will Johnson]

Reviewing his household as recorded in the census, it does not seem like he was rich at all.
A typical farm house inventory

[JPD]

I do not have a dog in this fight as I do not descend from Philippe Mius d’Entremont, but just looking over this thread I would say at best you only have a hypothesis that he might be related to Admiral de Coligny. You need more evidence to test this hypothesis.

As for Mius d’Entremont being a noble, other than the letters patent for the Pobomcoup fief, what other documents refer to him as an écuyer? As you probably know, écuyer (squire) is a good clue that someone might be a noble, but its appearance once or just a few times in documents is not sufficient evidence. You must look for a pattern. Is the person consistently called écuyer over time? Are his parents given this title? What about his children? Some people tried to pass themselves off as noble by assuming the title of écuyer. This was a big enough problem in New France that the Sovereign Council demanding nobles living in the colony to register proofs of their noble status. There were charlatans running about the colony like Cadillac pretending to be noble. With an education and good manners, one could pass for a noble.

La Tour may have granted Mius d’Entremont the barony believing he was a noble without demanding evidence to that fact. Also, this might come as a surprise to some, but even during the Wars of Religion in France you had some Catholics cooperating with Protestants. Whether or not Mius d'Entremont was a Protestant cannot be determined by his cooperating with La Tour. And it was also not unknown in New France for well off people to marry into the nobility.

Coligny is an important family; I would suspect there are papers regarding this family in the Cabinet des titres. Has anyone bothered to check these papers to see if they mention a Mius d’Entremont? Likewise, has anyone checked for Mius d’Entremont in the Cabinet des titres? Many of the dossiers in the Cabinet de titres have now been digitized and can be examined at Gallica.fr. But keep in mind that even in these records you will find people trying to pass as nobles.

Given the lack of evidence for this hypothesis and the fact that Denis Beauregard mentioned that there is a Mius family from Normandy whose Y DNA matches Acadian Mius d’Entremont samples, I would think the better approach would be to narrow research on Normandy and try to find the link between these Y DNA matches. Rather than trying to fit Philippe Mius d’Entremont into a famous noble family without sufficient evidence, it might be more productive to actually do research to locate original documents in France regarding him and his family.

Let me close by saying that insulting M. Beauregard, an eminent genealogist, does not strengthen an argument but does relay a lot about a person’s character.

[Owen Caddell]

I do not have a dog in this fight as I do not descend from Philippe Mius d’Entremont, but just looking over this thread I would say at best you only have a hypothesis that he might be related to Admiral de Coligny. You need more evidence to test this hypothesis.
As for Mius d’Entremont being a noble, other than the letters patent for the Pobomcoup fief, what other documents refer to him as an écuyer? As you probably know, écuyer (squire) is a good clue that someone might be a noble, but its appearance once or just a few times in documents is not sufficient evidence. You must look for a pattern. Is the person consistently called écuyer over time? Are his parents given this title? What about his children? Some people tried to pass themselves off as noble by assuming the title of écuyer. This was a big enough problem in New France that the Sovereign Council demanding nobles living in the colony to register proofs of their noble status. There were charlatans running about the colony like Cadillac pretending to be noble. With an education and good manners, one could pass for a noble.
La Tour may have granted Mius d’Entremont the barony believing he was a noble without demanding evidence to that fact. Also, this might come as a surprise to some, but even during the Wars of Religion in France you had some Catholics cooperating with Protestants. Whether or not Mius d'Entremont was a Protestant cannot be determined by his cooperating with La Tour. And it was also not unknown in New France for well off people to marry into the nobility.
Coligny is an important family; I would suspect there are papers regarding this family in the Cabinet des titres. Has anyone bothered to check these papers to see if they mention a Mius d’Entremont? Likewise, has anyone checked for Mius d’Entremont in the Cabinet des titres? Many of the dossiers in the Cabinet de titres have now been digitized and can be examined at Gallica.fr. But keep in mind that even in these records you will find people trying to pass as nobles.
Given the lack of evidence for this hypothesis and the fact that Denis Beauregard mentioned that there is a Mius family from Normandy whose Y DNA matches Acadian Mius d’Entremont samples, I would think the better approach would be to narrow research on Normandy and try to find the link between these Y DNA matches. Rather than trying to fit Philippe Mius d’Entremont into a famous noble family without sufficient evidence, it might be more productive to actually do research to locate original documents in France regarding him and his family.
Let me close by saying that insulting M. Beauregard, an eminent genealogist, does not strengthen an argument but does relay a lot about a person’s character.

YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO

[Denis Beauregard]

On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 15:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell

Post by Owen Caddell
YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO
That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont.

Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.


Denis

[Peter de Loriol Chandieu]

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 15:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell

Post by Owen Caddell
YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO
That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont.

Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

As Denis says, it does not matter where Pobomcoup was, what matters is what the DNA shews; it shows that the Meus were from the Eastern seaboard.
Whether in Canada or France, rich individuals could buy 'noble seigneuries', but it did not make their owners noble if they were not. There is a family in the UK called de Salle de Terrieres, whose name was never that in the 18th or 17th century, it was Favre, but they came from an area of that name in the Languedoc. The family had a huge domain created for it in Canada, but could never prove nobility in France, doing the next best thing as lettered and astute businessmen in Canada. they are now represented in the UK with a large domain in Scotland.
As Denis says, astute new men could create a new persona in a new environment, and these did!

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 15:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell

Post by Owen Caddell
YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO
That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont.

Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

Denis, I wouldn't even worry about it at this point... someone who insults people in that manner and choose to live in a fantasy world deserves stone cold silence.

The name actually looks like a French version of a Native word, to be honest.

Darrell

[Denis Beauregard]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:06:03 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Denis Beauregard

Post by Denis Beauregard
That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont.

Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.

Denis, I wouldn't even worry about it at this point... someone who insults people in that manner and choose to live in a fantasy world deserves stone cold silence.
The name actually looks like a French version of a Native word, to be honest.

For Pobomcoup, perhaps. But Entremont is definitely French. Azy sounds
more French than Native.

My ancester was André Jarret sieur de Beauregard and there is a place
named Beauregard in the town where he was born in 1642. For his
half-brother François Jarret de Verchères, there are many small places
named Verchères but none close enough to be sure it is the right
place.

For many dit names, descendants found a small place of that name in
France. So once the place of origin of the Mius is found, then it may
be possible that some small place Azy or Entremont could be found.

That said, I found a Charles Theroude married to Marie Mius from
Avremesnil (76) and a Mellon Delamotte married to Jeanne Mius from
Rouen (76), both living around 1750.


Denis

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:06:03 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Denis Beauregard

Post by Denis Beauregard
That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont.

Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.

Denis, I wouldn't even worry about it at this point... someone who insults people in that manner and choose to live in a fantasy world deserves stone cold silence.
The name actually looks like a French version of a Native word, to be honest.

For Pobomcoup, perhaps. But Entremont is definitely French. Azy sounds
more French than Native.
My ancester was André Jarret sieur de Beauregard and there is a place
named Beauregard in the town where he was born in 1642. For his
half-brother François Jarret de Verchères, there are many small places
named Verchères but none close enough to be sure it is the right
place.
For many dit names, descendants found a small place of that name in
France. So once the place of origin of the Mius is found, then it may
be possible that some small place Azy or Entremont could be found.
That said, I found a Charles Theroude married to Marie Mius from
Avremesnil (76) and a Mellon Delamotte married to Jeanne Mius from
Rouen (76), both living around 1750.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

Denis,

I was only talking about Pobomcoup of course! Sorry I confused you.

André Jarret, sieur de Beauregard, and my direct paternal ancestor, Philibert Couillaud dit Rocbrune, served together in the Contrecoeur company of the Carignan-Salières Regiment and were true friends. Alas, any record of my ancestor in France does not exist, but DNA shows him to be of Border Scots ancestry, so he is probably a Coqueborne, a descendant of of the Gardes Écossaises, but we just don't know. I know André Jarret name well though! We are tied through brothers in arms.

Darrell

[Denis Beauregard]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 13:32:51 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"

Post by Darrell E. Larocque
I was only talking about Pobomcoup of course! Sorry I confused you.

I understood that. But in some cases, it was found that a "Native"
word was not. For example, Quebec is sometimes presumed to be a
cousin of places like Bricquebec in France !

When I made my last travel to France in 2018, I remember I saw
something sounding like a Mius domain. I took no note so I just
don't remember what I saw, perhaps in Dieppe or Rouen. I verified
the photos I have but no hint. I thought I could find it easily
when back home, but this didn't happen !

Post by Darrell E. Larocque
André Jarret, sieur de Beauregard, and my direct paternal ancestor, Philibert Couillaud dit Rocbrune, served together in the Contrecoeur company of the Carignan-Salières Regiment and were true friends. Alas, any record of my ancestor in France does not exist, but DNA shows him to be of Border Scots ancestry, so he is probably a

Coqueborne, a descendant of of the Gardes Écossaises, but we just don't know. I know André Jarret name well though! We are tied through brothers in arms.

Why not joining my French Heritage project ? I see one of the
Larocque made a Big Y, with some English deep match. The common
ancestor would be 1400 years ago.

But I see no name and I don't see you as a match. Were you tested
with something like Dante or FGC or Nebula and then on Yfull ? Or
with 23andme, which is less accutare ?


Denis

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Post by Denis Beauregard
I understood that. But in some cases, it was found that a "Native"
word was not. For example, Quebec is sometimes presumed to be a
cousin of places like Bricquebec in France !

I have Seigneur de Bricquebrec ancestry (through Alix Bertrand de Bricquebec, wife of Robert d'Estouteville), so I would never make that mistake! Funny.

Post by Denis Beauregard
When I made my last travel to France in 2018, I remember I saw
something sounding like a Mius domain. I took no note so I just
don't remember what I saw, perhaps in Dieppe or Rouen. I verified
the photos I have but no hint. I thought I could find it easily
when back home, but this didn't happen !

I don't have that line in my extensive French ancestry that I know of, certainly not in Quebec!

Post by Denis Beauregard
Why not joining my French Heritage project ? I see one of the
Larocque made a Big Y, with some English deep match. The common
ancestor would be 1400 years ago.
But I see no name and I don't see you as a match. Were you tested
with something like Dante or FGC or Nebula and then on Yfull ? Or
with 23andme, which is less accutare ?
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.

https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm

Darrell

[Denis Beauregard]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"

Post by Darrell E. Larocque
My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as

Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.

Post by Darrell E. Larocque
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm

From the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized

The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
too different for a common ancestor after the family names were
inherited.

That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
specific pioneer with unknown origin.


Denis

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"

Post by Darrell E. Larocque
My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as

Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.

Post by Darrell E. Larocque
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm

From the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized
The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
too different for a common ancestor after the family names were
inherited.
That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
specific pioneer with unknown origin.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

I am looking at the Coqueborne family from Fussy, beginning with Mathieu de Cocqueborne, born about 1599 écuyer, Seigneur & Vicomte
de Fussy, archer de la Garde écossaise du Roi, married Gilberte de Fourchier and Anne Paillet. Fussy is close to Nevers, Nivernais, France where he said he was from. I have two theories as to Philibert's origins, one is that he was the descendant of a soldier who served with Mathieu or his family, or he might have been a child born out of wedlock and called Coqueborne but was actually from another Scot family, being Allan or Preston or Dunn. Either way, it is no coincidence that one of the few Scots to remain in France, surnamed Coqueborne, ended up close to Nevers. We are very much hindered by the anti-DNA feeling amongst the French which made its way into the law, because if we had a large amount of French sampling like we have in the US, Canada or the UK, then we could get closer to the answer. I just hope that I am still alive if there is a groundbreaking genetic discovery so we can finally have more answers!

Darrell

[Peter de Loriol Chandieu]

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"

Post by Darrell E. Larocque
My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as

Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.

Post by Darrell E. Larocque
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm

From the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized
The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
too different for a common ancestor after the family names were
inherited.
That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
specific pioneer with unknown origin.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

I am looking at the Coqueborne family from Fussy, beginning with Mathieu de Cocqueborne, born about 1599 écuyer, Seigneur & Vicomte
de Fussy, archer de la Garde écossaise du Roi, married Gilberte de Fourchier and Anne Paillet. Fussy is close to Nevers, Nivernais, France where he said he was from. I have two theories as to Philibert's origins, one is that he was the descendant of a soldier who served with Mathieu or his family, or he might have been a child born out of wedlock and called Coqueborne but was actually from another Scot family, being Allan or Preston or Dunn. Either way, it is no coincidence that one of the few Scots to remain in France, surnamed Coqueborne, ended up close to Nevers. We are very much hindered by the anti-DNA feeling amongst the French which made its way into the law, because if we had a large amount of French sampling like we have in the US, Canada or the UK, then we could get closer to the answer. I just hope that I am still alive if there is a groundbreaking genetic discovery so we can finally have more answers!
Darrell

The de cockborne family is still extant. the present head of the family is Joel Patrice , Baron de cockborne. The earliest member of the family to have been in the garde ecossaise was Adam de Cockborne, + 1585, Marechal des logis de la Garde Ecossaise, ancestor of the present.
the name Couillaut/d is a very old angevin name and is till widely represented.

Peter

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Post by Peter de Loriol Chandieu

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"

Post by Darrell E. Larocque
My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as

Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.

Post by Darrell E. Larocque
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm

From the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized
The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
too different for a common ancestor after the family names were
inherited.
That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
specific pioneer with unknown origin.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

I am looking at the Coqueborne family from Fussy, beginning with Mathieu de Cocqueborne, born about 1599 écuyer, Seigneur & Vicomte
de Fussy, archer de la Garde écossaise du Roi, married Gilberte de Fourchier and Anne Paillet. Fussy is close to Nevers, Nivernais, France where he said he was from. I have two theories as to Philibert's origins, one is that he was the descendant of a soldier who served with Mathieu or his family, or he might have been a child born out of wedlock and called Coqueborne but was actually from another Scot family, being Allan or Preston or Dunn. Either way, it is no coincidence that one of the few Scots to remain in France, surnamed Coqueborne, ended up close to Nevers. We are very much hindered by the anti-DNA feeling amongst the French which made its way into the law, because if we had a large amount of French sampling like we have in the US, Canada or the UK, then we could get closer to the answer. I just hope that I am still alive if there is a groundbreaking genetic discovery so we can finally have more answers!
Darrell

The de cockborne family is still extant. the present head of the family is Joel Patrice , Baron de cockborne. The earliest member of the family to have been in the garde ecossaise was Adam de Cockborne, + 1585, Marechal des logis de la Garde Ecossaise, ancestor of the present.
the name Couillaut/d is a very old angevin name and is till widely represented.
Peter

Peter,

The problem that I have is that Philibert Couillaud dit Rocquebrune names himself as "of Nevers in the diocese of Nivernais", which makes him a very interesting case. Not many immigrants to New France were from this region, especially men of the Carignan-Salières Regiment and he sticks out like a sore thumb. This is why researchers in the past have been frustrated by his origins. His marriage occurred in New France and there appears to be no ties to his wife's family back in France.

There are two events which have radically changed his history- a false representation of his ancestry by a man named Robert de Roquebrune who made up an ancestry and had it published, and the Y-DNA results which revealed his past ancestry to be tied to the families of Allan, Preston, Dunn, Cockburn and Dunbar in Scotland.

It is true that Couillaud is an Angevin name, but without any clues as to how Scottish DNA is tied to this fact and ending up at the western border of Burgundy thanks to French bioethics law and a dearth or records, we are at a point where nothing more can be discovered.

Darrell

[Will Johnson]

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Peter de Loriol Chandieu

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"

Post by Darrell E. Larocque
My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as

Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.

Post by Darrell E. Larocque
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm

From the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized
The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
too different for a common ancestor after the family names were
inherited.
That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
specific pioneer with unknown origin.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

I am looking at the Coqueborne family from Fussy, beginning with Mathieu de Cocqueborne, born about 1599 écuyer, Seigneur & Vicomte
de Fussy, archer de la Garde écossaise du Roi, married Gilberte de Fourchier and Anne Paillet. Fussy is close to Nevers, Nivernais, France where he said he was from. I have two theories as to Philibert's origins, one is that he was the descendant of a soldier who served with Mathieu or his family, or he might have been a child born out of wedlock and called Coqueborne but was actually from another Scot family, being Allan or Preston or Dunn. Either way, it is no coincidence that one of the few Scots to remain in France, surnamed Coqueborne, ended up close to Nevers. We are very much hindered by the anti-DNA feeling amongst the French which made its way into the law, because if we had a large amount of French sampling like we have in the US, Canada or the UK, then we could get closer to the answer. I just hope that I am still alive if there is a groundbreaking genetic discovery so we can finally have more answers!
Darrell

The de cockborne family is still extant. the present head of the family is Joel Patrice , Baron de cockborne. The earliest member of the family to have been in the garde ecossaise was Adam de Cockborne, + 1585, Marechal des logis de la Garde Ecossaise, ancestor of the present.
the name Couillaut/d is a very old angevin name and is till widely represented.
Peter

Peter,
The problem that I have is that Philibert Couillaud dit Rocquebrune names himself as "of Nevers in the diocese of Nivernais", which makes him a very interesting case. Not many immigrants to New France were from this region, especially men of the Carignan-Salières Regiment and he sticks out like a sore thumb. This is why researchers in the past have been frustrated by his origins. His marriage occurred in New France and there appears to be no ties to his wife's family back in France.
There are two events which have radically changed his history- a false representation of his ancestry by a man named Robert de Roquebrune who made up an ancestry and had it published, and the Y-DNA results which revealed his past ancestry to be tied to the families of Allan, Preston, Dunn, Cockburn and Dunbar in Scotland.
It is true that Couillaud is an Angevin name, but without any clues as to how Scottish DNA is tied to this fact and ending up at the western border of Burgundy thanks to French bioethics law and a dearth or records, we are at a point where nothing more can be discovered.
Darrell

Not quite.
Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
And this science is only at its start

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Post by Will Johnson
Not quite.
Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
And this science is only at its start

Well, the small amount of French samples because of the bioethics law is really hindering progress... you can only go so far with testing if you are connecting dots that are separated by a huge chasm. I would like to know your thoughts on how this could be solved!

Darrell

[Will Johnson]

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Will Johnson
Not quite.
Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
And this science is only at its start

Well, the small amount of French samples because of the bioethics law is really hindering progress... you can only go so far with testing if you are connecting dots that are separated by a huge chasm. I would like to know your thoughts on how this could be solved!
Darrell

The cluster telescopes do not need any samples from France at all.
Quebecois samples can be used.

[Denis Beauregard]

On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:20:26 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson

Post by Will Johnson

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Will Johnson
Not quite.
Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
And this science is only at its start

Well, the small amount of French samples because of the bioethics law is really hindering progress... you can only go so far with testing if you are connecting dots that are separated by a huge chasm. I would like to know your thoughts on how this could be solved!
Darrell

The cluster telescopes do not need any samples from France at all.
Quebecois samples can be used.

The problem with Couillaud dit Larocque dit Roquebrune, Mius, many
Acadians and some Quebecois is that while there is some Y DNA
signature (quality may vary, from Big Y to YSTR-37 or 23andme and from
optimal (MRCA is the immigrant) to some generations more recent or
even NPE, but the place of origin unknown.

In some cases, a French testee will help to find the place of origin
in France (same name and very good Y DNA match), and in some cases,
even reaching the Medieval times.


Denis

[Will Johnson]

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:20:26 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson

Post by Will Johnson

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Will Johnson
Not quite.
Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
And this science is only at its start

Well, the small amount of French samples because of the bioethics law is really hindering progress... you can only go so far with testing if you are connecting dots that are separated by a huge chasm. I would like to know your thoughts on how this could be solved!
Darrell

The cluster telescopes do not need any samples from France at all.
Quebecois samples can be used.

The problem with Couillaud dit Larocque dit Roquebrune, Mius, many
Acadians and some Quebecois is that while there is some Y DNA
signature (quality may vary, from Big Y to YSTR-37 or 23andme and from
optimal (MRCA is the immigrant) to some generations more recent or
even NPE, but the place of origin unknown.
In some cases, a French testee will help to find the place of origin
in France (same name and very good Y DNA match), and in some cases,
even reaching the Medieval times.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

I'm speaking of autosomal clusters however
Not Y

[Denis Beauregard]

On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 15:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson

Post by Will Johnson

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:20:26 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson

Post by Will Johnson
The cluster telescopes do not need any samples from France at all.
Quebecois samples can be used.

I'm speaking of autosomal clusters however
Not Y

I tested with FTDNA-Family Finder and 23andme and both will show the
position of shared DNA. I say that for readers who may want to try.

I found a lot of "cousins" that are too far for the length of common
DNA and they have all a long common segment. And for this one, many
far cousins have their ancestors living far (300 miles) from my own
ancestors except one of them born 1794.

Also, I wrote some script to predict the theoretical shared DNA
between 2 persons by comparing their whole family tree (in my
database, I can associate a number to each person so I actually
compare these numbers, the number of generations, presume they
gave half of their DNA and that their own parents provided the
other half, so as to take into account the endogamy because of our
small founding population. And I isolate the common ancestors I
share with those cousins.

Starting from myself, I found thus far 6 remote cousins sharing that
long segment and built their complete genealogical tree.

I found 81 common ancestors for them all. The number of common
ancestors (between them) that I found after adding each now cousin
is getting smaller each time but the series is:

212
143
108
91
81

So I may need 10 more cousins to find some unique common ancestor
having some unique DNA segment. But I have only 6 more cousins
with that long segment.

But then, what do I get ? I mean I identified 7 people sharing some
common DNA segment, but what can I do more ? Sure I can use this
segment to identify those cousins, but the 23andme report is already
reporting the list. Also, the NPE rate is about 1/200. So, in the
34,000 I have found for my first set of 6 cousins, 85 can be the
wrong father. So there is some probability that the common ancestor
I would find could be the wrong one.

Anyway, I don't see how the autosomal tests can be useful to reach
the medieval times. From this test, I think we can't isolate the
original carrier of a long segment from New France ancestry. And
this is probably the place (with Iceland) where it is possible to
identified almost all ancestors before 1800.

Some long segments can be identified. All I can conclude is that
when they are found, then the relationship will be much larger (i.e.
not 5th cousins but 7th or 8th cousin) than what actually happened.
But that's all.


Denis

[Will Johnson]

I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.

However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.

Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700

It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility

And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant

So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants

I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago

So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this method
we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters

[Will Johnson]

Post by Will Johnson
I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.
However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.
Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700
It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility
And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant
So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants
I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago
So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this method
we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters

The problem you are reporting is because you are relying solely on your OWN test
You need to form clusters of tests with like-minded cousins willing to share with you
You yourself might have inherited chromosome 3 from 30 to 60 from your ancestor
But your cousin might have inherited chromosome 5 from 100 to 120 from that exact same ancestor

You need to combine the matches across multiple tests
This is clustering

[Denis Beauregard]

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:46:00 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson

Post by Will Johnson

Post by Will Johnson
I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.
However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.
Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700
It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility
And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant
So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants
I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago
So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this method
we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters

The problem you are reporting is because you are relying solely on your OWN test
You need to form clusters of tests with like-minded cousins willing to share with you
You yourself might have inherited chromosome 3 from 30 to 60 from your ancestor
But your cousin might have inherited chromosome 5 from 100 to 120 from that exact same ancestor
You need to combine the matches across multiple tests
This is clustering

I have an access to many Family Finders as an admin of projects
at FTDNA and some people sent me their lists of relatives from
23andme, so I have some more data to analyze. And in my own 23andme
and FF results, I have more long segments.

But all this is very time expensive. Perhaps you may find some
signature from autosomal DNA but I would suppose this is possible
in area where a lot of people are testing, for example because they
have more money in the family or someone is willing to find the
origin for some genetic disease or there is no record available so
autosomal tests may help.

In 2018, I talked with a genetician trying to find the origin of
some defective gene using a large genealogical database and
probably a long set of DNA results but failed, so I may suppose
that in my own area, odds are small, but in other area, odds are
better because more tests are available.

I am now back to Y and MT DNA triangulations ! Not medieval however.


Denis

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Post by Will Johnson

Post by Will Johnson
I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.
However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.
Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700
It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility
And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant
So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants
I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago
So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this method
we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters

The problem you are reporting is because you are relying solely on your OWN test
You need to form clusters of tests with like-minded cousins willing to share with you
You yourself might have inherited chromosome 3 from 30 to 60 from your ancestor
But your cousin might have inherited chromosome 5 from 100 to 120 from that exact same ancestor
You need to combine the matches across multiple tests
This is clustering

Will,

I don't think you understand the difficulty we have with Philibert Couillaud dit Rocqubrune. He said he was from Nevers, which is from a region of France that has very few immigrants in New France. The DNA cluster results for all of us who are descendants of French immigrants wouldn't mean NEARLY as much as clusters would from France. We are actually related to each other many times over.

We need FRENCH DNA badly. We cannot simply rely on clusters of cousins that exclude French ones... imagine someone telling you that they walked from Paris to Calais and them only telling you that they didn't use any major roads. How are you supposed to figure out the points in the middle? I have DNA information from:

Op den Velde, Stercken and De Peuter in Netherlands
Ruut in Estonia
Edgar, Langley in England
Osborne in Ireland
Allen, Riddell, Preston, Cockburn, Dunbar, Fraser, Harcus/Arcus in Scotland

This doesn't get us anywhere, it only tells us that in a time period farther back than we need, our Scottish ancestors spread out to the nations present around the North Sea. So, we need to connect Scotland to Quebec, and without the French DNA clusters, we are blind.

Denis isn't familiar with Larocque like I am of course, but he knows how difficult it is to deal with ancestors with no documented past in France.

Darrell

[Will Johnson]

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Will Johnson

Post by Will Johnson
I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.
However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.
Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700
It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility
And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant
So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants
I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago
So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this method
we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters

The problem you are reporting is because you are relying solely on your OWN test
You need to form clusters of tests with like-minded cousins willing to share with you
You yourself might have inherited chromosome 3 from 30 to 60 from your ancestor
But your cousin might have inherited chromosome 5 from 100 to 120 from that exact same ancestor
You need to combine the matches across multiple tests
This is clustering

Will,
I don't think you understand the difficulty we have with Philibert Couillaud dit Rocqubrune. He said he was from Nevers, which is from a region of France that has very few immigrants in New France. The DNA cluster results for all of us who are descendants of French immigrants wouldn't mean NEARLY as much as clusters would from France. We are actually related to each other many times over.
Op den Velde, Stercken and De Peuter in Netherlands
Ruut in Estonia
Edgar, Langley in England
Osborne in Ireland
Allen, Riddell, Preston, Cockburn, Dunbar, Fraser, Harcus/Arcus in Scotland
This doesn't get us anywhere, it only tells us that in a time period farther back than we need, our Scottish ancestors spread out to the nations present around the North Sea. So, we need to connect Scotland to Quebec, and without the French DNA clusters, we are blind.
Denis isn't familiar with Larocque like I am of course, but he knows how difficult it is to deal with ancestors with no documented past in France.
Darrell

So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.

[Denis Beauregard]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson

Post by Will Johnson
So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.

Because of founding effect, this is not true.

If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
sum up.

Someone in France has not most of his ancestors from a small set
of 10,000 pioneers so inbreeding (or founding effect) is not
comparable. So, this is an important distinction.

And by the way, Piedmont is in Italy, not in France !

The autosomal test is based on about 600,000 values. The criteria
of FTDNA was to accept 100 consecutive SNPs (I think they changed
to 600 some times ago). So, to have a common ancestor that is not
a matter of coincidence, you need a segment of say at least 100
values.

600,000 for me
300,000 for my parents
150,000 for my g-parents.
...
585 after 8 more generations.
146 after 11 more generations.

And you must be lucky to have something stable after 6 generations.
All that can be consistent would be a sticky segment and you can't
predict it will survive. If you check the segments from FTDNA or
23andme (both are providing the positions of segments), you will see
that set of sticky segments is very small if you compare it to the
number of ancestors you may have after 6 generations.


Denis

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson

Post by Will Johnson
So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.

Because of founding effect, this is not true.
If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
sum up.
Someone in France has not most of his ancestors from a small set
of 10,000 pioneers so inbreeding (or founding effect) is not
comparable. So, this is an important distinction.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

You said it better than I could... the founding effect... a small population of people related to each other in many ways is not comparable to the French population! We have the edges of the puzzle but the middle is locked behind French bioethics law...

Darrell

[Will Johnson]

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson

Post by Will Johnson
So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.

Because of founding effect, this is not true.
If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
sum up.
Someone in France has not most of his ancestors from a small set
of 10,000 pioneers so inbreeding (or founding effect) is not
comparable. So, this is an important distinction.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

You said it better than I could... the founding effect... a small population of people related to each other in many ways is not comparable to the French population! We have the edges of the puzzle but the middle is locked behind French bioethics law...
Darrell

I mean people can keep saying "What you are actually doing in fact, is not possible!"
And yet it is being done.
It's hard to argue with people who insist that what we are actually doing, is not happening.

[Will Johnson]

By the way, the way you use Autosomal DNA to get past the issue that you have ten segments, descending from the same ancestral couple through ten different paths is.

You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
Rinse and repeat.

In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.

My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Post by Will Johnson
By the way, the way you use Autosomal DNA to get past the issue that you have ten segments, descending from the same ancestral couple through ten different paths is.
You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
Rinse and repeat.
In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.
My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.

You must have missed my explanation about Philibert's origins and how very few from Nivernais settled in New France. You have to have others to compare to according to your explanation, and we Larocques/Larocks/Rocks do not have that. I just took a glance at what pioneers from Poitou (where Pierre Allard came from) as compared to Nivernais are represented and Poitou has several hundred while Nivernais has 13. It's just not that large of a genetic footprint to get answers from.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Will Johnson
By the way, the way you use Autosomal DNA to get past the issue that you have ten segments, descending from the same ancestral couple through ten different paths is.
You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
Rinse and repeat.
In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.
My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.

You must have missed my explanation about Philibert's origins and how very few from Nivernais settled in New France. You have to have others to compare to according to your explanation, and we Larocques/Larocks/Rocks do not have that. I just took a glance at what pioneers from Poitou (where Pierre Allard came from) as compared to Nivernais are represented and Poitou has several hundred while Nivernais has 13. It's just not that large of a genetic footprint to get answers from.

Will is very sure that DNA has all the answers to every genealogy question, even when there's no other data to connect it with.

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Will Johnson
By the way, the way you use Autosomal DNA to get past the issue that you have ten segments, descending from the same ancestral couple through ten different paths is.
You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
Rinse and repeat.
In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.
My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.

You must have missed my explanation about Philibert's origins and how very few from Nivernais settled in New France. You have to have others to compare to according to your explanation, and we Larocques/Larocks/Rocks do not have that. I just took a glance at what pioneers from Poitou (where Pierre Allard came from) as compared to Nivernais are represented and Poitou has several hundred while Nivernais has 13. It's just not that large of a genetic footprint to get answers from.

Will is very sure that DNA has all the answers to every genealogy question, even when there's no other data to connect it with.

I am curious now that I think about it... where does Pierre Allard come from besides being from Sainte-Hermine, Luçon? Why hasn't DNA already told us more about his past? You would think that if there was such a large amount of immigrants from Poitou that by your logic this would not be an issue. See what I mean? I don't see how you can definitively conclude your clusters are the solution when someone like Pierre Allard that has a much larger representation by diocese doesn't even have a genetic solution for ancestry.

Darrell

[Denis Beauregard]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2023 06:55:45 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by ***@gmail.com
Will is very sure that DNA has all the answers to every genealogy question, even when there's no other data to connect it with.

I am curious now that I think about it... where does Pierre Allard come from besides being from Sainte-Hermine, Luçon? Why hasn't DNA already told us more about his past? You would think that if there was such a large amount of immigrants from Poitou that by your logic this would not be an issue. See what I mean? I don't see how

you can definitively conclude your clusters are the solution when someone like Pierre Allard that has a much larger representation by diocese doesn't even have a genetic solution for ancestry.

Y DNA will follow the strict father to son lineages, i.e. only men
carry that Y chromosome. Triangulations (partly with no paper trail)
can reach 1000 years ago.

MT DNA is given by the mother to all children except that only
daughters will carry it to the next generation so that MT DNA
will follow the maternal lineage. Triangulations need a paper trail
because family names are changing in our culture.

Autosomal DNA is carried by every one and split 50:50 to children
but not 25:25:25:25 to the next generation. One result is that some
sticky segment may survive for a long time. I have found myself
such a segment surviving since about 300 years, perhaps more, but I
can't identify who provided it. I spent a week to study this segment
because 23andme is not providing many details to identify the cousins
(FTDNA is more helpful but has a small base of users while AncestryDNA
has more users but no details about the shared segments). Maybe I can
find more segments to study (about myself) or someone can give me a
full access to his/her 23andme and tested his cousins, but all this is
time consuming.

The theory of Will is that if you can identify who carried it in 1700,
then you can find deeper ancestry also carrying it. It seems that Will
has some illimited budget for DNA testing and a lot of cousins who
accept to be tested, and also a huge team of genealogists to found all
the involved pedigrees. And 1700 is not yet medieval times.

One problem in New France is endogamy and founding effect. One very
good point in New France is that there are so many tools to complete
a genealogy that you can verify most of the lineages you find.


Denis

[Will Johnson]

You cannot identify sticky segments just by your own DNA test.
Well you can, perhaps for a hundred years back

As you try to go back further, you will find that pedigree collapse hinders you yourself alone from identifying sticky segments because your own knowledge and the paper trail fail you at some point.

This is why you need a cluster of DNA tests. That is, you need to be able to view, manage, own, a set of DNA tests for all kinds of family members.

You must eliminate the possibility of NPEs in each line, one by one, prove descent from multiple collateral lines, identify any potential double cousins situations. There are many steps, and you can't do it only with your own test results.

I have access to about 90 tests, so I'm in a unique situation I suppose. Most people don't care to do that level of work.

However even just having access say to a few first cousins, and a few second cousins tests, you can make tremendous progress in identifying which segments, came down from which ancestral couples

You can then, using Gedmatch, search for anyone else with that overlapping segment and collaborate with them

[Will Johnson]

I wish I had a team of genealogists.
I am slowly, but steadily teaching others my genetoarbre triangulation process
Too many people have their head in mud and don't seem to comprehend that it is possible to do

[Michael Larocque]

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Darrell E. Larocque

Post by Will Johnson
By the way, the way you use Autosomal DNA to get past the issue that you have ten segments, descending from the same ancestral couple through ten different paths is.
You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
Rinse and repeat.
In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.
My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.

You must have missed my explanation about Philibert's origins and how very few from Nivernais settled in New France. You have to have others to compare to according to your explanation, and we Larocques/Larocks/Rocks do not have that. I just took a glance at what pioneers from Poitou (where Pierre Allard came from) as compared to Nivernais are represented and Poitou has several hundred while Nivernais has 13. It's just not that large of a genetic footprint to get answers from.

Will is very sure that DNA has all the answers to every genealogy question, even when there's no other data to connect it with.

I am curious now that I think about it... where does Pierre Allard come from besides being from Sainte-Hermine, Luçon? Why hasn't DNA already told us more about his past? You would think that if there was such a large amount of immigrants from Poitou that by your logic this would not be an issue. See what I mean? I don't see how you can definitively conclude your clusters are the solution when someone like Pierre Allard that has a much larger representation by diocese doesn't even have a genetic solution for ancestry.
Darrell

Hi Darrell! My name is MichaëI Larocque am an ancestor of Philibert Couilliard dit Roquebrune and I live in Ottawa, Ontario.
I am very new to ancestry and geanology and was wondering if there could be a way we could communicate online about our ancestors together.
Because I am new I have found it difficult understanding everything and find I might be getting things wrong aswell. Also before reading everything written here I had no clue that there was a Y test done or anything like that which connects to Scottish. Could you enlighten me a bit on that?

[Owen Caddell]

Looks like y'all have did a dead end. Not surprising considering y'all heeding the advice of a man (Denis Beauregard) who believes that la Pere d'Acadie (Charles La Tour) was a Catholic. LOL!!! Misinformed.

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Post by Owen Caddell
Looks like y'all have did a dead end. Not surprising considering y'all heeding the advice of a man (Denis Beauregard) who believes that la Pere d'Acadie (Charles La Tour) was a Catholic. LOL!!! Misinformed.

I'm sorry, but you instantly lost credibility when you come here throwing around "y'all" and insulting someone trying to help. Take your grievance somewhere else...

[Will Johnson]

Post by Denis Beauregard
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson

Post by Will Johnson
So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.

Because of founding effect, this is not true.
If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
sum up.
And you must be lucky to have something stable after 6 generations.
All that can be consistent would be a sticky segment and you can't
predict it will survive. If you check the segments from FTDNA or
23andme (both are providing the positions of segments), you will see
that set of sticky segments is very small if you compare it to the
number of ancestors you may have after 6 generations.

Yes Denis.
This is why you cannot use just your own test
You must have a cluster of tests. Tests from your fifteen cousins.
You must compare them all to each other. This is clustering.
This is the next generation process for going back in time.

Post by Denis Beauregard
--

[Hans Vogels]

Post by Owen Caddell

I do not have a dog in this fight as I do not descend from Philippe Mius d’Entremont, but just looking over this thread I would say at best you only have a hypothesis that he might be related to Admiral de Coligny. You need more evidence to test this hypothesis.
As for Mius d’Entremont being a noble, other than the letters patent for the Pobomcoup fief, what other documents refer to him as an écuyer? As you probably know, écuyer (squire) is a good clue that someone might be a noble, but its appearance once or just a few times in documents is not sufficient evidence. You must look for a pattern. Is the person consistently called écuyer over time? Are his parents given this title? What about his children? Some people tried to pass themselves off as noble by assuming the title of écuyer. This was a big enough problem in New France that the Sovereign Council demanding nobles living in the colony to register proofs of their noble status. There were charlatans running about the colony like Cadillac pretending to be noble. With an education and good manners, one could pass for a noble.
La Tour may have granted Mius d’Entremont the barony believing he was a noble without demanding evidence to that fact. Also, this might come as a surprise to some, but even during the Wars of Religion in France you had some Catholics cooperating with Protestants. Whether or not Mius d'Entremont was a Protestant cannot be determined by his cooperating with La Tour. And it was also not unknown in New France for well off people to marry into the nobility.
Coligny is an important family; I would suspect there are papers regarding this family in the Cabinet des titres. Has anyone bothered to check these papers to see if they mention a Mius d’Entremont? Likewise, has anyone checked for Mius d’Entremont in the Cabinet des titres? Many of the dossiers in the Cabinet de titres have now been digitized and can be examined at Gallica.fr. But keep in mind that even in these records you will find people trying to pass as nobles.
Given the lack of evidence for this hypothesis and the fact that Denis Beauregard mentioned that there is a Mius family from Normandy whose Y DNA matches Acadian Mius d’Entremont samples, I would think the better approach would be to narrow research on Normandy and try to find the link between these Y DNA matches. Rather than trying to fit Philippe Mius d’Entremont into a famous noble family without sufficient evidence, it might be more productive to actually do research to locate original documents in France regarding him and his family.
Let me close by saying that insulting M. Beauregard, an eminent genealogist, does not strengthen an argument but does relay a lot about a person’s character.

YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO

If I notice someone writing in capitals it means (to me) that his own arguments are not that strong and he is unwilling to admit that the other has a point.

Hans Vogels

[Hans Vogels]

Post by Owen Caddell
This is how it went. I was recently reading a book about Gaspard de Coligny written by A.W. Whitehead (citation at bottom.) This book contains a chart confirming that Gaspard ll de Coligny and Jacquelin d'Entremonts, sole heiress of the d'Entremont line, had a daughter Beatrice in 1572 (born after Coligny's death) who married Claude, Baron de Meuillon. This Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon, was the son of Nicolas Muss and his wife, Jeanne de Meuillon.
Coligny, Jeanne de Meuillon, and Nicolas Muss were all slaughtered for their Protestant faith at or around the events of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. This left Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon an orphan as a toddler. He was then adopted by Jacquelin d'Entremonts. The reasons for this adoption are twofold - Jacquelin felt guilty over the fact that Claude's father Nicolas had died protecting her late husband Coligny. Jacquelin also had no male heirs for the d'Entremont line as her family had failed to produce any. She thus struck some sort of agreement that her now adopted son, Claude Antoine, which declared that any children he had would carry on the d'Entremont name. Claude proceeded to marry Jacquelin's genetic daughter Beatrix, confirmed by W.A. Whitehead. This is why Philippe, one of their sons, carries both the Mius and the d'Entremont name.
As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic. What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents being murdered for their faith?
Arthur Whiston Whitehead, Gaspard de Coligny: Admiral of France. (London: Methuen & Co, 1892).

This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. <<

This is not true, not then and not nowadays.
You are misinformed on this issue.

Hans Vogels
from The Netherlands