Discussion:
C.P. Addition: Death date of Margery Bardolf, wife of Sir Michael de Poynings, Knt.
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c***@gmail.com
2019-07-20 23:07:17 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage 10 (1945): 659 (sub Poynings) has an account of Sir Michael de Poynings, Knt., who died in 1314. Regarding the date of death of his wife, Margery Bardolf, the following information is provided:

"His widow was living in Feb. 1334/4." END OF QUOTE.

The source given for this information of Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1330–1334 (1893): 517, which reads as follows:

"Date: 24 Feb. 1334. Ratification of the estate of John de Slagham as parson of the church of Hokewold, which is of the patronage of Margery, late the wife of Michael de Ponynges, knight." END OF QUOTE.

The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=71rkVP1u91AC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Elsewhere, Blomefield, Essay towards a Top. Hist. of Norfolk 2 (1805): 186 records the following:

"In 7th Edw. III. [i.e., 1333-1334] the King recovered against Margaret, widow of Michael de Ponyngs, by quare impedit, in the right of Robert de Scales, under age, and in ward to the King, son of Robert and Isabella his wife, son of Robert, son of Robert, and Margery his wife, daughter and coheir of Fulk de Beaufo, who was lord of this town and Wilton, entirely." END OF QUOTE.

Blomefield cites the following source for this information: Placita coram Rege, 7 E. 3. rot. 5.

Unfortunately Blomefield did not supply the term of the actual lawsuit.

Whatever the case, the king evidently decided in favor of Margery's right to make the presentation to the church of Hockwold, Norfolk, as indicated by the Patent Roll item cited earlier above.

Elsewhere I've located a Common Pleas lawsuit which indicates that Margery Bardolf, widow of Michael de Poynings, died testate in or before Michaelmas 1334. An abstract of the lawsuit is provided below:

In Michaelmas term 1334 Michael de Ponynges, executor of the will of Margery de Ponynges, sued Richard le Clerk, of Halstead, in the Court of Common Pleas that he render to him and Andrew de Bures, John, parson of the church of Hockwold, Norfolk, John Sampson, John de Merston and John, parson of the church of Poynings, Sussex, co-executors with the said Michael, a reasonable account of the time he was bailiff of the said Margery in Smallbridge (in Bures St. Mary) and Bures Tany, Suffolk, and her receiver of money.

Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/300, image 318d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no300/bCP40no300dorses/IMG_0318.htm).

In summary, we see that Margery Bardolf, widow of Sir Michael de Poynings, was living in 1333-34, and probably as late as 24 February 1334. She died testate in or before Michaelmas term 1334.

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Michael de Poynings and his wife, Margery Bardolf:

Elizabeth Alsop, Samuel Argall, William Asfordby, Charles Barham, Charles Barnes, Anne Baynton, Dorothy Beresford, Joseph Bickley, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Elizabeth Bosvile, George & Robert Brent, Nathaniel Burrough, Charles & Leonard Calvert, Jeremy Clarke, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd, William Crymes, James Cudworth, Edward Digges, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Filmer, Henry Fleete, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Elizabeth Haynes, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Edmund, Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Anne Lovelace, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne Mauleverer, John and Margaret Nelson, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, George Reade, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Rose Stoughton, Samuel & William Torrey, John West.

Do you descend from Sir Michael de Poynings and Margery Bardolf? If so, I'd very much like to see your line of descent from this couple posted here on the newsgroup.

Douglas Richardson, Historian & Genealogist
Adrian Channing
2019-07-21 18:50:34 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear Newsgroup ~
"His widow was living in Feb. 1334/4." END OF QUOTE.
"Date: 24 Feb. 1334. Ratification of the estate of John de Slagham as parson of the church of Hokewold, which is of the patronage of Margery, late the wife of Michael de Ponynges, knight." END OF QUOTE.
https://books.google.com/books?id=71rkVP1u91AC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
"In 7th Edw. III. [i.e., 1333-1334] the King recovered against Margaret, widow of Michael de Ponyngs, by quare impedit, in the right of Robert de Scales, under age, and in ward to the King, son of Robert and Isabella his wife, son of Robert, son of Robert, and Margery his wife, daughter and coheir of Fulk de Beaufo, who was lord of this town and Wilton, entirely." END OF QUOTE.
Blomefield cites the following source for this information: Placita coram Rege, 7 E. 3. rot. 5.
Unfortunately Blomefield did not supply the term of the actual lawsuit.
Whatever the case, the king evidently decided in favor of Margery's right to make the presentation to the church of Hockwold, Norfolk, as indicated by the Patent Roll item cited earlier above.
In Michaelmas term 1334 Michael de Ponynges, executor of the will of Margery de Ponynges, sued Richard le Clerk, of Halstead, in the Court of Common Pleas that he render to him and Andrew de Bures, John, parson of the church of Hockwold, Norfolk, John Sampson, John de Merston and John, parson of the church of Poynings, Sussex, co-executors with the said Michael, a reasonable account of the time he was bailiff of the said Margery in Smallbridge (in Bures St. Mary) and Bures Tany, Suffolk, and her receiver of money.
Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/300, image 318d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no300/bCP40no300dorses/IMG_0318.htm).
In summary, we see that Margery Bardolf, widow of Sir Michael de Poynings, was living in 1333-34, and probably as late as 24 February 1334. She died testate in or before Michaelmas term 1334.
Elizabeth Alsop, Samuel Argall, William Asfordby, Charles Barham, Charles Barnes, Anne Baynton, Dorothy Beresford, Joseph Bickley, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Elizabeth Bosvile, George & Robert Brent, Nathaniel Burrough, Charles & Leonard Calvert, Jeremy Clarke, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd, William Crymes, James Cudworth, Edward Digges, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Filmer, Henry Fleete, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Elizabeth Haynes, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Edmund, Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Anne Lovelace, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne Mauleverer, John and Margaret Nelson, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, George Reade, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Rose Stoughton, Samuel & William Torrey, John West.
Do you descend from Sir Michael de Poynings and Margery Bardolf? If so, I'd very much like to see your line of descent from this couple posted here on the newsgroup.
Douglas Richardson, Historian & Genealogist
Thank you for your good post.

I note that C.P. names Sir Michael de Poynings (d 1314) wife as Margery (__), no surname given, although I see in Leo Van de Pas site she is named as Margery da. of Hugh Bardolf 1st Baron Bardolf of Wormegay. Do you have any other proof that this is she.

What worries me a little is that Sir Michael de Poynings’ grand-son, another Sir Michael Poynings (d 1369) and 1st Baron left issue included Agnes who married William Bardolf 4th baron and great grand-son of the above Hugh Bardolf (CP Vol 10 p 661 note (g) and Vol 1 p 325)
CE Wood
2019-07-21 23:33:22 UTC
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So, Agnes de Poynings would then be 2nd cousin once removed from her husband, Michael de Bardolf?

CE Wood
Post by Adrian Channing
Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear Newsgroup ~
"His widow was living in Feb. 1334/4." END OF QUOTE.
"Date: 24 Feb. 1334. Ratification of the estate of John de Slagham as parson of the church of Hokewold, which is of the patronage of Margery, late the wife of Michael de Ponynges, knight." END OF QUOTE.
https://books.google.com/books?id=71rkVP1u91AC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
"In 7th Edw. III. [i.e., 1333-1334] the King recovered against Margaret, widow of Michael de Ponyngs, by quare impedit, in the right of Robert de Scales, under age, and in ward to the King, son of Robert and Isabella his wife, son of Robert, son of Robert, and Margery his wife, daughter and coheir of Fulk de Beaufo, who was lord of this town and Wilton, entirely." END OF QUOTE.
Blomefield cites the following source for this information: Placita coram Rege, 7 E. 3. rot. 5.
Unfortunately Blomefield did not supply the term of the actual lawsuit.
Whatever the case, the king evidently decided in favor of Margery's right to make the presentation to the church of Hockwold, Norfolk, as indicated by the Patent Roll item cited earlier above.
In Michaelmas term 1334 Michael de Ponynges, executor of the will of Margery de Ponynges, sued Richard le Clerk, of Halstead, in the Court of Common Pleas that he render to him and Andrew de Bures, John, parson of the church of Hockwold, Norfolk, John Sampson, John de Merston and John, parson of the church of Poynings, Sussex, co-executors with the said Michael, a reasonable account of the time he was bailiff of the said Margery in Smallbridge (in Bures St. Mary) and Bures Tany, Suffolk, and her receiver of money.
Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/300, image 318d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no300/bCP40no300dorses/IMG_0318.htm).
In summary, we see that Margery Bardolf, widow of Sir Michael de Poynings, was living in 1333-34, and probably as late as 24 February 1334. She died testate in or before Michaelmas term 1334.
Elizabeth Alsop, Samuel Argall, William Asfordby, Charles Barham, Charles Barnes, Anne Baynton, Dorothy Beresford, Joseph Bickley, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Elizabeth Bosvile, George & Robert Brent, Nathaniel Burrough, Charles & Leonard Calvert, Jeremy Clarke, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd, William Crymes, James Cudworth, Edward Digges, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Filmer, Henry Fleete, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Elizabeth Haynes, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Edmund, Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Anne Lovelace, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne Mauleverer, John and Margaret Nelson, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, George Reade, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Rose Stoughton, Samuel & William Torrey, John West.
Do you descend from Sir Michael de Poynings and Margery Bardolf? If so, I'd very much like to see your line of descent from this couple posted here on the newsgroup.
Douglas Richardson, Historian & Genealogist
Thank you for your good post.
I note that C.P. names Sir Michael de Poynings (d 1314) wife as Margery (__), no surname given, although I see in Leo Van de Pas site she is named as Margery da. of Hugh Bardolf 1st Baron Bardolf of Wormegay. Do you have any other proof that this is she.
What worries me a little is that Sir Michael de Poynings’ grand-son, another Sir Michael Poynings (d 1369) and 1st Baron left issue included Agnes who married William Bardolf 4th baron and great grand-son of the above Hugh Bardolf (CP Vol 10 p 661 note (g) and Vol 1 p 325)
c***@gmail.com
2019-07-22 16:46:26 UTC
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Dear Adrian ~

Thank you for your post. Much appreciated.

The identification of Margery, wife of Sir Michael de Poynings, as a daughter of Hugh Bardolf, 1st Lord Bardolf [died 1304] was first made some time ago here on the newsgroup by John Ravilious. I've done additional research on the problem in recent time.

Mr. Ravilious cited three pieces of evidence. The first record confirms that Hugh Bardolf and his wife, Isabel d'Aguillon, had a daughter named Margery.

1. In 1308 John Page, of Wogham, settled the manor of Perching (in Fulking), Sussex on Isabel “daughter of [Robert] d’Aguillon" [widow of Hugh Bardolf] for life, with successive remainders to her son, William [Bardolf], and her daughters, Nichole and Margery, and their respective heirs, and thence to John de Ferrers and his heirs.

The original fine may be viewed at the following weblink:

Sussex Feet of Fines, Year: 1308 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_236_40-48/IMG_0097.htm).

William Bardolf appears to have died without issue, and the manor of Perching fell to his sister, Nichole Bardolf, wife successively of Robert Butvillein, Robert de Arderne, Knt., and Thomas Wale, K.G.

The identity of Isabel "daughter of [Robert] d'Aguillon" in the 1308 fine as Isabel, widow of Hugh Bardolf, is confirmed by the following record which I located this past year:

Court of King’s Bench, KB27/334, image 198f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/KB27no334/aKB27no334fronts/IMG_0198.htm) (lawsuit dated 1334 contains the following statement: “… man[oru]m de Perchyng c[u]m ptn in Com Sussex quod quidem man[oru]m Isabella Bardolf dedit p’fate Nicholae & p’dco Rob’to de Ardern quondam viro suo & heredibz de corporibz eor[um]d[e]m Rob’ti & Nicholae”).

Subsequent to the 1308 fine, Isabel d'Aguillon, widow of Hugh Bardolf, conveyed other property of her own inheritance to Sir Michael de Poynings and Margery his wife, as indicated by the following two records:

Suffolk Rec. Office, Ipswich Branch: The Iveagh (Phillipps) Suffolk MSS, HD 1538/157/1 (feoffment dated 8 Oct. 1309 by and between John son of Thomas de Bassingbourne and Sir Michael de Ponynges, Knt., and wife, Margery, regarding the manor of Bures, Suffolk for £500 of silver sterling, which the grantor had by feoffment of Dame Isabel, formerly wife of Sir Hugh Bardolph, in Bures); HD 1538/1 Vol.1/fol.54 (Isabel, widow of Sir Hugh Bardolf, quitclaims to Sir Michael de Ponyngges, Knt., and his wife Margery her manor in Bures, Suffolk with all its villeins and their families by deed dated 25 March 1313) (available at http://http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.ukwww.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).

As for other supporting evidence that Margery, wife of Sir Michael de Poynings, is the same person as Margery Bardolf, my research shows that the families of Margery and her sister, Nichole, has sustained and continuous contact between each other for many years as indicated by the records below, including dealings regarding the manor of Perching (in Fulking), Sussex:

1. In 1348 Sir Thomas Wale [husband of Nichole Bardolf] granted a three year lease of the manor of Perching (in Fulking), Sussex to Sir Michael de Poynings, with the option of continuing the lease for as long as said Thomas’ wife by whose right he holds it lives.

2. In 1349 William Botevilleyn, Knt., [son of Nichole Bardolf] conveyed the manor of Perching (in Fulking), Sussex to Michael de Poynings; Thomas Wale and Nichole his wife, Nichole, put in their claim. The same year William likewise conveyed the reversion of the manor of Cottesbrooke, Northamptonshire to Michael de Ponyngges, Knt., which manor was then held by Thomas Wale and Nichole his wife, for the life of the said Nichole of the inheritance of the said William.

3. In 1350 Robert de Causton, Thomas Wale [husband of Nichole Bardolf], Otes de Holand, and John de Wyngefeld, Knt. acknowledged that they owed Michael de Ponyngges, Knt., a debt of 400 marks.

4. In 1351 Sir Michael de Poynings agreed to pay Sir Thomas Wale [husband of Nichole Bardolf] £80 for one year for the lease of manor of Perching, and 80 marks at Easter and Michaelmas for two years, and thereafter 100 marks every year for the life of Lady Nichole, wife of Sir Thomas Wale.

5. In 1353 Michael de Ponynges acknowledged that he owed Nichole [Bardolf], widow of Thomas Wale, Knt., a debt of £500.

In summary, I believe the evidence supports the conclusion made by Mr. Ravilious that Margery, wife of Sir Michael de Poynings, was the daughter of Hugh Bardolf, 1st Lord Bardolf, by his wife, Isabel d'Aguillon.

With regard to your comment that there was subsequently an intermarriage between the Bardolf and Poynings families, you are correct about that. If I plotted it correctly, the couple in question would have been related in the 3rd and 4th degrees of kindred. This sort of relationship could have been easily dispensed by a local bishop.

Douglas Richardson, Historian & Genealogist
Adrian Channing
2019-07-22 19:02:22 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear Adrian ~
Thank you for your post. Much appreciated.
The identification of Margery, wife of Sir Michael de Poynings, as a daughter of Hugh Bardolf, 1st Lord Bardolf [died 1304] was first made some time ago here on the newsgroup by John Ravilious. I've done additional research on the problem in recent time.
Mr. Ravilious cited three pieces of evidence. The first record confirms that Hugh Bardolf and his wife, Isabel d'Aguillon, had a daughter named Margery.
1. In 1308 John Page, of Wogham, settled the manor of Perching (in Fulking), Sussex on Isabel “daughter of [Robert] d’Aguillon" [widow of Hugh Bardolf] for life, with successive remainders to her son, William [Bardolf], and her daughters, Nichole and Margery, and their respective heirs, and thence to John de Ferrers and his heirs.
Sussex Feet of Fines, Year: 1308 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_236_40-48/IMG_0097.htm).
William Bardolf appears to have died without issue, and the manor of Perching fell to his sister, Nichole Bardolf, wife successively of Robert Butvillein, Robert de Arderne, Knt., and Thomas Wale, K.G.
Court of King’s Bench, KB27/334, image 198f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/KB27no334/aKB27no334fronts/IMG_0198.htm) (lawsuit dated 1334 contains the following statement: “… man[oru]m de Perchyng c[u]m ptn in Com Sussex quod quidem man[oru]m Isabella Bardolf dedit p’fate Nicholae & p’dco Rob’to de Ardern quondam viro suo & heredibz de corporibz eor[um]d[e]m Rob’ti & Nicholae”).
Suffolk Rec. Office, Ipswich Branch: The Iveagh (Phillipps) Suffolk MSS, HD 1538/157/1 (feoffment dated 8 Oct. 1309 by and between John son of Thomas de Bassingbourne and Sir Michael de Ponynges, Knt., and wife, Margery, regarding the manor of Bures, Suffolk for £500 of silver sterling, which the grantor had by feoffment of Dame Isabel, formerly wife of Sir Hugh Bardolph, in Bures); HD 1538/1 Vol.1/fol.54 (Isabel, widow of Sir Hugh Bardolf, quitclaims to Sir Michael de Ponyngges, Knt., and his wife Margery her manor in Bures, Suffolk with all its villeins and their families by deed dated 25 March 1313) (available at http://http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.ukwww.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
1. In 1348 Sir Thomas Wale [husband of Nichole Bardolf] granted a three year lease of the manor of Perching (in Fulking), Sussex to Sir Michael de Poynings, with the option of continuing the lease for as long as said Thomas’ wife by whose right he holds it lives.
2. In 1349 William Botevilleyn, Knt., [son of Nichole Bardolf] conveyed the manor of Perching (in Fulking), Sussex to Michael de Poynings; Thomas Wale and Nichole his wife, Nichole, put in their claim. The same year William likewise conveyed the reversion of the manor of Cottesbrooke, Northamptonshire to Michael de Ponyngges, Knt., which manor was then held by Thomas Wale and Nichole his wife, for the life of the said Nichole of the inheritance of the said William.
3. In 1350 Robert de Causton, Thomas Wale [husband of Nichole Bardolf], Otes de Holand, and John de Wyngefeld, Knt. acknowledged that they owed Michael de Ponyngges, Knt., a debt of 400 marks.
4. In 1351 Sir Michael de Poynings agreed to pay Sir Thomas Wale [husband of Nichole Bardolf] £80 for one year for the lease of manor of Perching, and 80 marks at Easter and Michaelmas for two years, and thereafter 100 marks every year for the life of Lady Nichole, wife of Sir Thomas Wale.
5. In 1353 Michael de Ponynges acknowledged that he owed Nichole [Bardolf], widow of Thomas Wale, Knt., a debt of £500.
In summary, I believe the evidence supports the conclusion made by Mr. Ravilious that Margery, wife of Sir Michael de Poynings, was the daughter of Hugh Bardolf, 1st Lord Bardolf, by his wife, Isabel d'Aguillon.
With regard to your comment that there was subsequently an intermarriage between the Bardolf and Poynings families, you are correct about that. If I plotted it correctly, the couple in question would have been related in the 3rd and 4th degrees of kindred. This sort of relationship could have been easily dispensed by a local bishop.
Douglas Richardson, Historian & Genealogist
Thank you for your reply.
With respect to your last paragraph, there may be a complication here. William Bardolf was the ward of Sir Michael Poynings (CP Vol 1 p 419). As I understand it wardships were normally purchase from the crown. The principal was then allowed to keep any income arising from the minors estate, and would usually have the ward married to one of his issue. But would the principal purchase the ward if the future marriage was barred. I suppose the bishop's permission would have to be obtained before or at the same time as the purchase of the wardship?
Bronwen Edwards
2019-08-03 22:44:24 UTC
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You have taken the "dangerous" step of asking readers for how they descend from the Bardolf-Poynings family.....so here goes. For the most part, I consulted Leo for the information; you and he disagreed on at least one couple. That said, here goes:
Sir William Phelip, 6th Lord Bardolf, 1383-1441
Elizabeth Phelip, 1413-1441
Joan de Beaumont, d. 1466 (acc. to Leo)
Jane Stanley, 1463-1525
Ellen Warburton
Margaret Carrington
William Domville, d. 1625
Gilbert Domville, d. 1637
Sir William Domville, 1619-1689
Bridget Domville
Domville Hartpole, d. 1735
Capt. Edmond Butler of Newtown & Barrismore, 1700-1759
Bridget Butler, d. 1794
William Butler of Drom, d. 1812
Caroline Massy of Duntrileague, 1794-1874 (to Canada)
Joseph Barrett, 1824-1904 (to Canada, then California)
Elizabeth Barrett, 1859-1945
Clair Newman, 1887-1960
Elizabeth Clare Webb, 1912-2005
Bronwen Edwards, 1948- (me)
Bronwen Edwards
2019-08-03 22:51:39 UTC
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Post by Bronwen Edwards
Sir William Phelip, 6th Lord Bardolf, 1383-1441
Elizabeth Phelip, 1413-1441
Joan de Beaumont, d. 1466 (acc. to Leo)
Jane Stanley, 1463-1525
Ellen Warburton
Margaret Carrington
William Domville, d. 1625
Gilbert Domville, d. 1637
Sir William Domville, 1619-1689
Bridget Domville
Domville Hartpole, d. 1735
Capt. Edmond Butler of Newtown & Barrismore, 1700-1759
Bridget Butler, d. 1794
William Butler of Drom, d. 1812
Caroline Massy of Duntrileague, 1794-1874 (to Canada)
Joseph Barrett, 1824-1904 (to Canada, then California)
Elizabeth Barrett, 1859-1945
Clair Newman, 1887-1960
Elizabeth Clare Webb, 1912-2005
Bronwen Edwards, 1948- (me)
I see I made at least one error - Caroline Massy of Duntrileague should be Caroline Butler, not Massy. The dates are accurate.
wjhonson
2019-08-17 21:31:55 UTC
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Post by Bronwen Edwards
Sir William Phelip, 6th Lord Bardolf, 1383-1441
Elizabeth Phelip, 1413-1441
Joan de Beaumont, d. 1466 (acc. to Leo)
Jane Stanley, 1463-1525
Ellen Warburton
Margaret Carrington
William Domville, d. 1625
Gilbert Domville, d. 1637
Sir William Domville, 1619-1689
Bridget Domville
Domville Hartpole, d. 1735
Capt. Edmond Butler of Newtown & Barrismore, 1700-1759
Bridget Butler, d. 1794
William Butler of Drom, d. 1812
Caroline Massy of Duntrileague, 1794-1874 (to Canada)
Joseph Barrett, 1824-1904 (to Canada, then California)
Elizabeth Barrett, 1859-1945
Clair Newman, 1887-1960
Elizabeth Clare Webb, 1912-2005
Bronwen Edwards, 1948- (me)
Well except Leo has that your Jane (Stanley) Warburton, was the daughter of
William /Stanley/ of Holt Castle, co Flint; Knt
by his wife
Elizabeth /Hopton/

Not as you have it here
Bronwen Edwards
2019-08-18 04:02:49 UTC
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The mother of Jane Stanley appears to be uncertain, judging from the dates. It seems just as plausible that she is Beaumont's daughter as Hopton's, perhaps more so. The liaisons with these women (and several others) seems to have been haphazard. I see that Leo appears to have had Jane as Hopton's daughter, so I admit that I apparently mis-remembered. Since my list of ancestors was informal in the first place, no more than a response to a query that was made to any and all readers, I don't feel that there is a problem in saying that if Beaumont was Jane's mother, the line derives from Bardolf and Poynings. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
wjhonson
2019-08-19 17:08:34 UTC
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Post by Bronwen Edwards
The mother of Jane Stanley appears to be uncertain, judging from the dates. It seems just as plausible that she is Beaumont's daughter as Hopton's, perhaps more so. The liaisons with these women (and several others) seems to have been haphazard. I see that Leo appears to have had Jane as Hopton's daughter, so I admit that I apparently mis-remembered. Since my list of ancestors was informal in the first place, no more than a response to a query that was made to any and all readers, I don't feel that there is a problem in saying that if Beaumont was Jane's mother, the line derives from Bardolf and Poynings. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Well in order to posit this claim, you will need to produce a credible source which states this other parentage.
wjhonson
2019-08-19 17:14:57 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
Post by Bronwen Edwards
The mother of Jane Stanley appears to be uncertain, judging from the dates. It seems just as plausible that she is Beaumont's daughter as Hopton's, perhaps more so. The liaisons with these women (and several others) seems to have been haphazard. I see that Leo appears to have had Jane as Hopton's daughter, so I admit that I apparently mis-remembered. Since my list of ancestors was informal in the first place, no more than a response to a query that was made to any and all readers, I don't feel that there is a problem in saying that if Beaumont was Jane's mother, the line derives from Bardolf and Poynings. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Well in order to posit this claim, you will need to produce a credible source which states this other parentage.
I just want to point out that Leo has a *guess* as Jane's birthyear. We have *no sources* which tell us what year Jane Stanley was born, nor how old she happened to be at any point in her life.

She was the mother of Piers Warburton and thus had to be born *by* 1493

We know that her mother Elizabeth Hopton was born in 1426/8, so allowing a mother as old as 48 years, would mean Jane was born *by* 1476

Her father married Joan de Beaumont in 1465, and she died in 1466, whereupon he next married Elizabeth Hopton, who was then already 40 as we've just claimed.

So Jane if by Joan was born exactly in 1466, no guesses. And if by Elizabeth was born *no earlier* than 1467 and then no later than 1476 due to her mother's then advanced age.
c***@gmail.com
2019-08-19 17:29:33 UTC
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Dear Bronwen. You're entirely correct. The mother of Jane Stanley is uncertain. Her father Sir William Stanley had at least one legitimate son by at least one wife, as well as illegitimate issue. Having said that, I find it doubtful that Jane Stanley was the daughter of her father's last wife Elizabeth Hopton, as Elizabeth was about aged 40 when Sir William married her. Also the fact that Jane Stanley's husband was not from a top tier family makes it unlikely that Elizabeth Hopton was her mother. Beyond that, it is entirely possible that Sir William Stanley had an unknown third marriage between his two known marriages. Given these issues, my current position is the same as your's: the mother of Jane Stanley is uncertain.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

dtvmcdonald
2019-08-14 19:57:09 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear Newsgroup ~
Do you descend from Sir Michael de Poynings and Margery Bardolf? If so, I'd very much like to see your line of descent from this couple posted here on the newsgroup.
Douglas Richardson, Historian & Genealogist
Indeed I do. The immigrant ancestor (Ironmonger) is in your book,
but not by this path. Rev. Robert Rose is also a royally descended
immigrant, but post 1700.

Descendants of Sir Michael de Poynings
--------------------------------------
1-Sir Michael de Poynings
+ Margery
2-Sir Thomas de Poynings
+ Agnes de Rokesley
3-Sir Michael Poynings 1st Lord Poynings
+ Joan
4-Sir Richard Poynings 3rd Lord Poynings
+ Elizabeth de Grey Fitzpayn
5-Jane Poynings
+ Sir Ricard Camoys
6-Margaret Camoys
+ Ralph Radmyll
7-Margaret Radmyll
+ Sir John Goring
8-John Goring
+ Joan Hewster
9-John Goring
+ Constance Dyke
10-Constance Goring
+ Sir John Kingsmill
11-Mary Kingsmell
+ Edward Goddard
12-Bridgett Goddard
+ William Corderoy
13-Bridget Corderoy
+ Samuel Ironmonger
14-William Ironmonger
+ Elizabeth Jones
15-Frances Ironmonger
+ Mordecai Cooke
16-Susannah Cooke
+ Henry Fitzhugh
17-Anne Fitzhugh
+ Rev. Robert Rose
18-Col. Hugh Rose
+ Caroline Matilda Jordan
19-Hugh F. Rose M.D.
+ Elizabeth Robertson
20-Caroline Matilda Jordan Rose
+ Reddin Burkhalter McDonald
21-Benjamin Hill McDonald
+ Ella May Toland
22-Benjamin Patrick McDonald
+ Dorothy Nell Collins
23-James Douglas McDonald
g***@gmail.com
2019-08-15 02:37:43 UTC
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Greetings,

I apparently have three descents, one each through Wm Skepper, Rose Stoughton, and a 19th century gateway. I say apprently because I don't have the Stoughton descent in my database. Stay tuned while I try to find the missing link. :-)

Skepper
21Sir Michael de Poynings, Knt., Knight of the Shire d. 24 Jun 1314.
20Margery de Poynings d. 20 Mar 1349
19Margery Bacon b. abt. 1336, d. 1 Jun 1399
18Isabel Moleyns d. bef. 1409
17Sir Thomas Morley, Knt., 5th Lord Morley b. abt. 1393, d. 6 Dec 1435
16 Anne Morley b. say 1414, d. 1471
15 Elizabeth Hastings
14 Sir Peter Hildyard, Knt. b. abt. 1460, d. 20 Mar 1501/2
13 Isabel Hildyard b. abt. 1498, d. aft. 10 Jul 1540
12 Joan Legard b. abt. 1530, d. aft. 7 Mar 1585/86
11 Edward Skepper b. abt. 1552, d. bef. 10 Nov 1629
10 Rev William Skepper b. 27 Nov 1597, d. bef. 1646
9 Sarah Skepper b. abt. 1640, d. 18 Dec 1711
8 Sarah Fairfield b. 24 Dec 1655, d. 27 Nov 1742
7 Sarah Abbe b. 31 Mar 1684, d. 16 Feb 1732
6 Bathsheba Geer b. 16 Jan 1715, d. 28 Jan 1763
5 Bathsheba Sexton b. 14 Sep 1741, d. 27 Jul 1828
4 Sarah Washburn b. 5 Dec 1770, d. 13 Jul 1818
3 Laura Canfield White b. 9 Jan 1792, d. 12 Mar 1865
2 Laura Caroline Henry b. 30 Apr 1825, d. 10 May 1903
1 Marion Bain Jackson b. 27 Jul 1863, d. 7 Mar 1905
Adele La Force b. 18 Oct 1893, d. 5 Oct 1990
Donald Force Cooke b. 10 Jan 1923 d. 19 May 2017
Gregory Cooke (me)

19th century gateway
20Sir Michael de Poynings, Knt., Knight of the Shire d. 24 Jun 1314.
19Margery de Poynings d. 20 Mar 1349
18Margery Bacon b. abt. 1336, d. 1 Jun 1399
17Isabel Moleyns d. bef. 1409
16Sir Thomas Morley, Knt., 5th Lord Morley b. abt. 1393, d. 6 Dec 1435
15Anne Morley b. say 1414, d. 1471
14Sir Hugh Hastings, Knt. b. abt. 1447, d. 7 Jun 1488
13Sir Brian Hastings, Knt. b. aft. 20 Jun 1482
12Dorothy Hastings d. bef. 2 May 1560
11 Gabriel St. Quintin b. abt. Jan 1532, d. bef. 24 Apr 1577
10 Sir George St. Quintin, Knt. d. 4 Dec 1612
9 Sir William St. Quintin, Knt., Bnt. b. abt. 1579, d. bef. 8 Oct 1649
8 Frances St. Quintin d. bef. 20 Sep 1658
7 Daniel Lascelles b. 6 Nov 1655, d. 5 Sep 1734
6 Edward Lascelles b. 25 Feb 1702/3, d. 31 Oct 1747
5 General Francis Lascelles b. 1 Nov 1744, d. 2 Sep 1799
4 Jane Lascelles b. 19 Aug 1776, d. 22 Jul 1863
3 Mary Maria Hester Wynyard b. 23 May 1815, d. 18 Dec 1893
2 Matilda Caroline Higginson b. 27 Aug 1841, d. 1 Apr 1909
1 Mary Elizabeth Robinson b. 11 Mar 1869, d. 8 Jul 1955
Harriet Hanson Robinson b. 26 May 1895, d. 19 Dec 1974
Dorothy Harriet Pierce b. 6 Feb 1927 d. 13 Nov 2013
Gregory Cooke (me)
g***@gmail.com
2019-08-15 19:29:24 UTC
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Greetings,

Found the Stoughton descent from Poynings. Thanks to Jordan Vandenberg for his post in 2015 regarding the Stoughton descents from Wm Marshall to Rose Stoughton.

It appears RA needs a correction, or at least add a couple of cross references:
3:569 for Joan d'Oyley, [see POYNINGS 12.ii.a for her ancestry]
4:420 for 12.ii.a, add child 1) Joan m. Thomas de Lewknor [see LEWKNOR 12]

Thanks

Greg
g***@gmail.com
2019-08-16 14:32:33 UTC
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And here is my Stoughton descent

Stoughton
20 Sir Michael de Poynings, Knt., Knight of the Shire d. 24 Jun 1314
19 Joan de Poynings
18 Margaret Tregoz
17 Joan d'Oyley b. abt. 1344, d. 1393
16 Roger Lewknor, Esq. b. bef. 1374, d. bef. 15 Nov 1400
15 Sir Thomas Lewknor, Knt. b. abt. 1392, d. 1452
14 Sir Roger Lewknor, Knt. b. bt 1412 - 1422, d. 4 Aug 1478
13 Roger Lewknor d. bef. 23 Feb 1509/10
12 Edmund Lewknor b. 16 Nov 1496, d. 11 Mar 1545/46
11 Elizabeth Lewknor b. 2 Mar 1538
10 Sir Lawrence Stoughton, Knt., M.P. b. 12 Nov 1554, d. 13 Dec 1615
9 Anthony Stoughton b. 4 Jul 1598, d. 14 Jan 1643/44
8 Rose Stoughton b. 22 Nov 1629, d. bef. 5 Nov 1677
7 Ann Otis b. abt. 1657
6 Nathaniel Austin b. 2 Mar 1687, d. 1749
5 Phebe Austin b. 14 Mar 1718, d. bef. 1750
4 John Hanson b. 27 Nov 1746, d. 1803
3 William Hanson b. 1795, d. 15 Jul 1831
2 Harriet Jane Hanson b. 8 Feb 1825, d. 22 Dec 1911
1 Edward Warrington Robinson b. 4 May 1859, d. 8 Jan 1904
Harriet Hanson Robinson b. 26 May 1895, d. 19 Dec 1974
Dorothy Harriet Pierce b. 6 Feb 1927 d. 13 Nov 2013
Gregory Cooke (me)
P J Evans
2019-08-16 23:09:32 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
And here is my Stoughton descent
Stoughton
20 Sir Michael de Poynings, Knt., Knight of the Shire d. 24 Jun 1314
19 Joan de Poynings
18 Margaret Tregoz
17 Joan d'Oyley b. abt. 1344, d. 1393
16 Roger Lewknor, Esq. b. bef. 1374, d. bef. 15 Nov 1400
15 Sir Thomas Lewknor, Knt. b. abt. 1392, d. 1452
14 Sir Roger Lewknor, Knt. b. bt 1412 - 1422, d. 4 Aug 1478
13 Roger Lewknor d. bef. 23 Feb 1509/10
12 Edmund Lewknor b. 16 Nov 1496, d. 11 Mar 1545/46
11 Elizabeth Lewknor b. 2 Mar 1538
10 Sir Lawrence Stoughton, Knt., M.P. b. 12 Nov 1554, d. 13 Dec 1615
9 Anthony Stoughton b. 4 Jul 1598, d. 14 Jan 1643/44
8 Rose Stoughton b. 22 Nov 1629, d. bef. 5 Nov 1677
7 Ann Otis b. abt. 1657
6 Nathaniel Austin b. 2 Mar 1687, d. 1749
[snipped]

A niece-in-law has Rose Stoughton through both Austin and Pinkham (descent to her grandmother):

10 Rose Stoughton
9 Ann Otis [b abt 1657]
8 Rose Austin [1678-1755]
7 Joseph Tibbetts [1702-1776]
6 Rose Tibbetts [1739-1833] m William Canney

9 Rose Stoughton
8 Martha Otis [d abt 1699]
7 Rose Pinkham [b abt 1685]
6 William Canney [1727-1816] m Rose Tibbetts
5 Abigail Canney [1763-1849]
4 Joseph L Peavey [1793-1834]
3 Louisa J Peavey [bur 2 Jun 1896]
2 Alvina Maude Senter [1855-1936]
1 Hubbert Roger Quinter [1890-1961]
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