Latimer ancestry of Alice de Bois (died 1372), wife of Sir John Howard

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

An early ancestor of the noble family of Howard, namely Sir John Howard (living 1356), is known to have married before 11 October 1338 Alice de Bois (died 1372), daughter of Robert de Bois, Knt., of Burston, Fersfield, and Garboldisham, Norfolk, and Brokes (in Ipswich), Suffolk, by his wife, Christian, said to be a daughter of Sir William le Latimer. The matter of Alice de Bois' marriage and parentage is covered by Blomefield, Essay towards a Top. Hist. of Norfolk 1 (1739): 70-71; 1 (1805): 74-114, 125-130; 3 (1769): 155-171; 5 (1806): 235-259; 8 (1808): 138-141, 340-347. Blomefield identifies Christian, wife of Robert de Bois, as the daughter of Sir William le Latimer in several places, but I don't believe he explained what evidence he is used to make this identification.

I find that the marriages of Sir John Howard and his wife, Alice de Bois, and of her parents, Sir Robert de Bois and his wife, Christian le Latimer, are commemorated in the Clerestory window, north side of Lavenham, Suffolk church, which displays the Howard arms [Gules a bend between six crosses croslet fitchy argent], impaling Boys [Ermine a cross sable], and the Boys arms [Ermine a cross sable], impaling Latimer [Gules a cross patonce or]) [Reference: Procs. Suffolk Institute of Arch. & Natural Hist. 6 (1888): 225-235].

I haven't found a published source which specifically identifies Sir William le Latimer, the alleged father of Christian le Latimer, but he seems to be Sir William le Latimer, 1st Lord Latimer (died 1304), who married Alice Ledet. The chronology works fine for this placement of Christian le Latimer in the Latimer family tree.

Recently I encountered a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1309 by which Walter de Grendale sued William le Latimer Buchard, Robert de Bois and his wife, Christian, and Thomas son of Robert de Boulton regarding various debts. See Court of Common Pleas, CP40/175, image 20f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E2/CP40no175/aCP40no175fronts/IMG_0020.htm).

Robert de Bois and Christian his wife who are named in the lawsuit would appear to be the parents of Alice de Bois, wife of Sir John Howard. As for William le Latimer Buchard, he would seem to be Christian le Latimer's brother, Sir William le Latimer, 2nd Lord Latimer, died 1327. This all looks good.

The only problem I see here is that Sir William le Latimer, 2nd Lord Latimer, died 1327, is not known to have used the surname Buchard or Bouchard. Rather that surname was employed instead by his double first cousin, Sir Thomas le Latimer, died 1334, 1st Lord Latimer of Braybrook, son and heir of John le Latimer, Knt., by Christian Ledet. The surname Buchard/Bouchard was used by the male descendants of Sir Thomas le Latimer. As far as I know, the usage of the surname Buchard/Bouchard has never been explained.

Comments anyone?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Jan Wolfe]

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 2:43:01 PM UTC-4, Douglas Richardson wrote:
...

Post by Douglas Richardson
Recently I encountered a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1309 by which Walter de Grendale sued William le Latimer Buchard, Robert de Bois and his wife, Christian, and Thomas son of Robert de Boulton regarding various debts. See Court of Common Pleas, CP40/175, image 20f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E2/CP40no175/aCP40no175fronts/IMG_0020.htm).
Robert de Bois and Christian his wife who are named in the lawsuit would appear to be the parents of Alice de Bois, wife of Sir John Howard. As for William le Latimer Buchard, he would seem to be Christian le Latimer's brother, Sir William le Latimer, 2nd Lord Latimer, died 1327. This all looks good.
The only problem I see here is that Sir William le Latimer, 2nd Lord Latimer, died 1327, is not known to have used the surname Buchard or Bouchard. Rather that surname was employed instead by his double first cousin, Sir Thomas le Latimer, died 1334, 1st Lord Latimer of Braybrook, son and heir of John le Latimer, Knt., by Christian Ledet. The surname Buchard/Bouchard was used by the male descendants of Sir Thomas le Latimer. As far as I know, the usage of the surname Buchard/Bouchard has never been explained.
Comments anyone?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

A William le Latimer Bouchard is mentioned in the Close Rolls, Edward II, vol. 4, in 1324:

Sept. 24. Porchester. To the same [the treasurer, or to him who supplies his place, and to the barons of the exchequer]. Order to cause William le Latimer Bouchard, who is going on the king's service to the duchy aforesaid [of Aquitaine], to have respite until Easter for all debts due to the exchequer, both for his own debts and those of his ancestors. By K.

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.35112103524957;view=1up;seq=234

[CE Wood]

Some other mentions:

Close Rolls, 8 Edward III, p.205:
https://books.google.com/books?jtp=205&id=D2BgbZ14rHUC#v=onepage&q&f=false

"1334
March 24.
Rockingham.
To William de Bredon, escheator in cos. Warwick, Leicester, Nottingham, Rockingham. Derby and Lancaster. Order to deliver to Lora, late the wife of Thomas Latymer Bouchard, a rent of 351. I2d. in Southleverton, Cotom, Stretton, Fenton, Littelburgh, Clareburgh, Wellum, Morhouses, Wheteleye, Wyston and Northwodehouses, co. Nottingham, restoring anything thereof which has been received since the death of Thomas to the said Lora, as the king has learned by inquisition taken by William Erneys, late escheator in those counties, that Thomas and Lora held that rent jointly at Thomas's death of the demise of John de Hastynges, lately deceased, by the licence of Edward I. to hold for their life, and that the said rent is held by the king in chief by the service of a pair of white gloves for every service, and the king has taken the fealty of Lora, due to him in this respect.

Close Rolls, 8 Edward III, p.215:

"1334
March 2.
York
....To the same. Like order, 'mutatis mutandis,' to assign dower to Lora, late the wife of Thomas le Latimer Bouchard, tenant in chief, in the presence of Warin, son and heir of Thomas."

The Galloway Roll, their arms can be seen at:
http://www.briantimms.fr/Rolls/galloway/galloway3.html

"GA 176
William le Latimer Gules a cross patonce or
Sir William le Latymer [de gueules a une crois patee d'or]

GA 177
John le Latimer Bouchard Gules on a cross patonce or five escallops sable
Sir Jehan le Latymer [de gueules a une crois patee d'or] a cinq cokilles de sable en le crois

GA 178
Thomas le Latimer Bouchard Gules on a cross patonce or five escallops sable a label of three points sable
Sir Thomas le Latymer [de gueules a une crois patee d'or a cinq cokilles de sable en le crois] a ung label de sable

GA 179
William le Latimer Bouchard Gules on a cross patonce or five escallops sable a label of three points sable semy of plates
Sir William le Latymer [de gueules a une crois patee d'or a cinq cokilles de sable en le crois a ung label de sable] a les pelotz d'argent en le label"



CE Wood

Post by Jan Wolfe
...

Post by Douglas Richardson
Recently I encountered a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1309 by which Walter de Grendale sued William le Latimer Buchard, Robert de Bois and his wife, Christian, and Thomas son of Robert de Boulton regarding various debts. See Court of Common Pleas, CP40/175, image 20f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E2/CP40no175/aCP40no175fronts/IMG_0020.htm).
Robert de Bois and Christian his wife who are named in the lawsuit would appear to be the parents of Alice de Bois, wife of Sir John Howard. As for William le Latimer Buchard, he would seem to be Christian le Latimer's brother, Sir William le Latimer, 2nd Lord Latimer, died 1327. This all looks good.
The only problem I see here is that Sir William le Latimer, 2nd Lord Latimer, died 1327, is not known to have used the surname Buchard or Bouchard. Rather that surname was employed instead by his double first cousin, Sir Thomas le Latimer, died 1334, 1st Lord Latimer of Braybrook, son and heir of John le Latimer, Knt., by Christian Ledet. The surname Buchard/Bouchard was used by the male descendants of Sir Thomas le Latimer. As far as I know, the usage of the surname Buchard/Bouchard has never been explained.
Comments anyone?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Sept. 24. Porchester. To the same [the treasurer, or to him who supplies his place, and to the barons of the exchequer]. Order to cause William le Latimer Bouchard, who is going on the king's service to the duchy aforesaid [of Aquitaine], to have respite until Easter for all debts due to the exchequer, both for his own debts and those of his ancestors. By K.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.35112103524957;view=1up;seq=234

[Jan Wolfe]

...

Also see Rosie Bevan's post http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-08/1155109171 from Aug 2006.

[...]

Calender of IPM, Vol III, Edward I

28. CRISTIANA LA LATIMERE

Writ (missing) IPM Monday, the eve of St. Martin (10 Nov?), 20 Edward I (1292)

Holdings in Northampton, including Braybroc.


Calendar of IPM, Vol VII, Edward III

50. WILLIAM LE LATYMER, LE LATIMER, or LATIMER

Writ, 2 March, 1 Edward III (1326/7) - making this 2nd Baron Latimer

Had holdings in Kent, Bedford, Surrey, Lincoln, Cumberland, York.

William his son, aged 26 years, is his next heir.

623. THOMAS LATYMER BOUCHARD or BOCHARD, or LE LATYMER BOUCHARD or BUCHARD, or LATYMER of Braybroke

Writ 2 February, 8 Edward III (1333/4)

Had holdings in Leicester, Nottingham, Northampton (including Braibrok).

Warin Latymer his son, aged 30 years, is his next heir.

689. WILLIAM LATYMER or LE LATIMER

Writ, 2 November, 9 Edward III (1335) - making this 3rd Baron Latimer

Holdings in Cumberland, Northumberland, York, Surrey, Lincoln, Northampton (but no Braybroke), Buckingham, Bedford, Cambridge.

William his son, aged 5 years, is his next heir.


---Looks like the name Christian appears with the Latimers Bouchard, aka Latimers of Braybroke.

And I have a Henry de Braybrooke marrying a Christina Ledet (per James Tait M.A., Mediæval Manchester and the beginnings of Lancashire (The University Press, Manchester, England, 1904), pg. 142)

William, 1st Baron Latimer marrying an Alicia Ledet.