Adelaide of Brunswick-Grubenhagen m Henry King of Bohemia

[wjhonson]

On Leo's great website here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00171947&tree=LEO

we see Adelaide (Eirene) daughter of Heinrich (Henry), Duke of
Brunswick-Grunbenhagen

She is there shown married to a Andronikos Palaiologos, Emperor of
Byzantium on 1 Mar 1318

Andronikos died in 1341 while she died in 1324

HOWEVER
Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 86
Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan, Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981

shows a certain "Adelaide b 1285 d 1320 d of Henry I, D of Brunswick-
Grunbenhagen"
married as his second wife to "Henry D of Carinthia, K of Bohemia
1307-10, b 1270 d 1335"

This Henry married firstly to Anne, dau of Wenceslas K of Bohemia and
then K of Poland by his wife Guta, d of Rudolph I Roman King

He married secondly as above to Adelaide
He married thirdly in 1328 to Beatrix of Savoy who died in 1331

What's going on here? Were there two Adelaides? Or were there two
Henrys? or did Louda and Maclagan really scruff things up here.

Will Johnson

[pj.evans]

On Leo's great website herehttp://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00171947&tree=LEO
we see Adelaide (Eirene) daughter of Heinrich (Henry), Duke of
Brunswick-Grunbenhagen
She is there shown married to a Andronikos Palaiologos, Emperor of
Byzantium on 1 Mar 1318
Andronikos died in 1341 while she died in 1324
HOWEVER
Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 86
Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan, Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981
shows a certain "Adelaide b 1285 d 1320 d of Henry I, D of Brunswick-
Grunbenhagen"
married as his second wife to "Henry D of Carinthia, K of Bohemia
1307-10, b 1270 d 1335"
This Henry married firstly to Anne, dau of Wenceslas K of Bohemia and
then K of Poland by his wife Guta, d of Rudolph I Roman King
He married secondly as above to Adelaide
He married thirdly in 1328 to Beatrix of Savoy who died in 1331
What's going on here? Were there two Adelaides? Or were there two
Henrys? or did Louda and Maclagan really scruff things up here.
Will Johnson

Will, I don't have my references to hand, but I have seen errors in
their work. I can't say that I've seen a lot of them, but -- .
The ones I've seen run to occasionally conflating or confusing two
people of the same name. That may be the case here, considering this
page:
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/welf/welf3.html#AIH1
which shows two daughters Adelheid or Adelaide.

[wjhonson]

Post by pj.evans
Will, I don't have my references to hand, but I have seen errors in
their work. I can't say that I've seen a lot of them, but -- .
The ones I've seen run to occasionally conflating or confusing two
people of the same name. That may be the case here, considering this
page:http://genealogy.euweb.cz/welf/welf3.html#AIH1
which shows two daughters Adelheid or Adelaide.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the response. It's too bad that site lists NO SOURCES.
*Throws small mammals at the screen*

But I'm willing to tentatively allow the possibility :)

Will

[pj.evans]

Post by wjhonson

Post by pj.evans
Will, I don't have my references to hand, but I have seen errors in
their work. I can't say that I've seen a lot of them, but -- .
The ones I've seen run to occasionally conflating or confusing two
people of the same name. That may be the case here, considering this
page:http://genealogy.euweb.cz/welf/welf3.html#AIH1
which shows two daughters Adelheid or Adelaide.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the response. It's too bad that site lists NO SOURCES.
*Throws small mammals at the screen*
But I'm willing to tentatively allow the possibility :)
Will

There _is_ a page with sources (go to the home page, and it's linked
in the text on the right); as far as I can tell, this is from Paul
Theroff's files. At least, I'm not seeing Braunschweig listed under
any of the others individuals.

[[e-mail]]

Post by pj.evans

On Leo's great website herehttp://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00171947&tree=LEO
we see Adelaide (Eirene) daughter of Heinrich (Henry), Duke of
Brunswick-Grunbenhagen
She is there shown married to a Andronikos Palaiologos, Emperor of
Byzantium on 1 Mar 1318
Andronikos died in 1341 while she died in 1324
HOWEVER
Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 86
Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan, Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981
shows a certain "Adelaide b 1285 d 1320 d of Henry I, D ofBrunswick-
Grunbenhagen"
married as his second wife to "Henry D of Carinthia, K of Bohemia
1307-10, b 1270 d 1335"
This Henry married firstly to Anne, dau of Wenceslas K of Bohemia and
then K of Poland by his wife Guta, d of Rudolph I Roman King
He married secondly as above to Adelaide
He married thirdly in 1328 to Beatrix of Savoy who died in 1331
What's going on here? Were there two Adelaides? Or were there two
Henrys? or did Louda and Maclagan really scruff things up here.
Will Johnson

Will, I don't have my references to hand, but I have seen errors in
their work. I can't say that I've seen a lot of them, but -- .
The ones I've seen run to occasionally conflating or confusing two
people of the same name. That may be the case here, considering this
page:http://genealogy.euweb.cz/welf/welf3.html#AIH1
which shows two daughters Adelheid or Adelaide.-

This website gives "ca 1293" as birth-date for empress Eirènè/
Adelheid. That would make her 3 or 4 years older than her husband
emperor Andronikos III. Not at all impossible of course, but
nevertheless rather surprising, particularly considering the general
pattern for imperial spouses and the fact that the marriage was in no
way of primary political importance.

Does someone know the elements favouring the year 1293 for the birth
of the empress.

Pierre Aronax

[[e-mail]]

Post by ***@hotmail.com

Post by pj.evans

On Leo's great website herehttp://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00171947&tree=LEO
we see Adelaide (Eirene) daughter of Heinrich (Henry), Duke of
Brunswick-Grunbenhagen
She is there shown married to a Andronikos Palaiologos, Emperor of
Byzantium on 1 Mar 1318
Andronikos died in 1341 while she died in 1324
HOWEVER
Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 86
Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan, Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981
shows a certain "Adelaide b 1285 d 1320 d of Henry I, D ofBrunswick-
Grunbenhagen"
married as his second wife to "Henry D of Carinthia, K of Bohemia
1307-10, b 1270 d 1335"
This Henry married firstly to Anne, dau of Wenceslas K of Bohemia and
then K of Poland by his wife Guta, d of Rudolph I Roman King
He married secondly as above to Adelaide
He married thirdly in 1328 to Beatrix of Savoy who died in 1331
What's going on here? Were there two Adelaides? Or were there two
Henrys? or did Louda and Maclagan really scruff things up here.
Will Johnson

Will, I don't have my references to hand, but I have seen errors in
their work. I can't say that I've seen a lot of them, but -- .
The ones I've seen run to occasionally conflating or confusing two
people of the same name. That may be the case here, considering this
page:http://genealogy.euweb.cz/welf/welf3.html#AIH1
which shows two daughters Adelheid or Adelaide.-

This website gives "ca 1293" as birth-date for empress Eirènè/
Adelheid. That would make her 3 or 4 years older than her husband
emperor Andronikos III. Not at all impossible of course, but
nevertheless rather surprising, particularly considering the general
pattern for imperial spouses and the fact that the marriage was in no
way of primary political importance.
Does someone know the elements favouring the year 1293 for the birth
of the empress?

Unfortunately, it seems that even a lineage as important as the House
of Braunschweig does not attract much interest in this group when it
is not of English stock and/or can not be connected to some third
class passenger of the Mayflower.

Pierre

[[e-mail]]

On Leo's great website herehttp://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00171947&tree=LEO
we see Adelaide (Eirene) daughter of Heinrich (Henry), Duke of
Brunswick-Grunbenhagen
She is there shown married to a Andronikos Palaiologos, Emperor of
Byzantium on 1 Mar 1318

On Sunday 23 October 1317 actually (date given by a reliable source,
the "Chronicle of 1352", which states it was the partriarch John
Glykos who performed the ceremony).

Pierre

[Leo van de Pas]

Dear Pierre,

I found the date "about 1293" in ES Volume 1.1 Tafel 20.

Adelaide-Eirene is preceeded by a brother Friedrich born about 1291 and
followed by Konrad born about 1294
On Tafel 20 no information for the birth of her husband is given.
In this volume the sources for Tafel 19 to 30 is quite lengthy. Then Tafel
19 (alone) has more sources mentioned as well as Tafel 20.

In Volume II Tafel 183 (Palaiologoi) Andronikos III is born 1296.

I hope this helps?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "***@hotmail.com" <***@hotmail.fr>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: Adelaide of Brunswick-Grubenhagen m Henry King of Bohemia

Post by pj.evans

Post by wjhonson
On Leo's great website
herehttp://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00171947&tree=LEO
we see Adelaide (Eirene) daughter of Heinrich (Henry), Duke of
Brunswick-Grunbenhagen
She is there shown married to a Andronikos Palaiologos, Emperor of
Byzantium on 1 Mar 1318
Andronikos died in 1341 while she died in 1324
HOWEVER
Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 86
Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan, Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981
shows a certain "Adelaide b 1285 d 1320 d of Henry I, D ofBrunswick-
Grunbenhagen"
married as his second wife to "Henry D of Carinthia, K of Bohemia
1307-10, b 1270 d 1335"
This Henry married firstly to Anne, dau of Wenceslas K of Bohemia and
then K of Poland by his wife Guta, d of Rudolph I Roman King
He married secondly as above to Adelaide
He married thirdly in 1328 to Beatrix of Savoy who died in 1331
What's going on here? Were there two Adelaides? Or were there two
Henrys? or did Louda and Maclagan really scruff things up here.
Will Johnson

Will, I don't have my references to hand, but I have seen errors in
their work. I can't say that I've seen a lot of them, but -- .
The ones I've seen run to occasionally conflating or confusing two
people of the same name. That may be the case here, considering this
page:http://genealogy.euweb.cz/welf/welf3.html#AIH1
which shows two daughters Adelheid or Adelaide.-

This website gives "ca 1293" as birth-date for empress Eirènè/
Adelheid. That would make her 3 or 4 years older than her husband
emperor Andronikos III. Not at all impossible of course, but
nevertheless rather surprising, particularly considering the general
pattern for imperial spouses and the fact that the marriage was in no
way of primary political importance.

Does someone know the elements favouring the year 1293 for the birth
of the empress.

Pierre Aronax

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GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[[e-mail]]

Post by Leo van de Pas
Dear Pierre,
I found the date "about 1293" in ES Volume 1.1 Tafel 20.
Adelaide-Eirene is preceeded by a brother Friedrich born about 1291 and
followed by Konrad born about 1294
On Tafel 20 no information for the birth of her husband is given.
In this volume the sources for Tafel 19 to 30 is quite lengthy. Then Tafel
19 (alone) has more sources mentioned as well as Tafel 20.
In Volume II Tafel 183 (Palaiologoi) Andronikos III is born 1296.
I hope this helps?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

Thanks Leo,

from your quotation of ES, it would seem that those birthdates are
guesses based on the order of birth of the children of Duke Henry of
Brunswick-G. It would be interesting to know if that order is
mentioned in any contemporary source. I will try to look after that a
little more closely, although I have few notions about Welfian
history.

Pierre

[wjhonson]

Post by ***@hotmail.com
from your quotation of ES, it would seem that those birthdates are
guesses based on the order of birth of the children of Duke Henry of
Brunswick-G. It would be interesting to know if that order is
mentioned in any contemporary source. I will try to look after that a
little more closely, although I have few notions about Welfian
history.
Pierre

---------
There is evidently some quotations from primary material on Medlands
I was just skimming through it to see what it says about there being
two Adelaides (which it does) and noticed it quoting some things in
reference to death dates for this immediate family.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CARINTHIA.htm

Will Johnson

[Leo van de Pas]

Dear Pierre,
The sources list is rather long, but if you think it helps, I will try to
get them to you.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "***@hotmail.com" <***@hotmail.fr>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Adelaide of Brunswick-Grubenhagen m Henry King of Bohemia

Post by ***@hotmail.com

Post by Leo van de Pas
Dear Pierre,
I found the date "about 1293" in ES Volume 1.1 Tafel 20.
Adelaide-Eirene is preceeded by a brother Friedrich born about 1291 and
followed by Konrad born about 1294
On Tafel 20 no information for the birth of her husband is given.
In this volume the sources for Tafel 19 to 30 is quite lengthy. Then
Tafel
19 (alone) has more sources mentioned as well as Tafel 20.
In Volume II Tafel 183 (Palaiologoi) Andronikos III is born 1296.
I hope this helps?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

Thanks Leo,
from your quotation of ES, it would seem that those birthdates are
guesses based on the order of birth of the children of Duke Henry of
Brunswick-G. It would be interesting to know if that order is
mentioned in any contemporary source. I will try to look after that a
little more closely, although I have few notions about Welfian
history.
Pierre
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Brent Miller]

I realize this is really late, but here is information I have:

Behr, Kamill, _Genealogie der in Europa Regierenden Fürstenhäuser nebst der
Reihenfolge Sämmtlicher Päpste_, Tafel LI, p. 51 - lists two dau. (among
others) of Heinrich, Duke of Grobenhagen: 1) Irene (d. 16 Aug 1324) m.
Andronicus III. Paläologus and 2) Adelheid (d. 18 Aug 1320) m. 1. Gerhard v.
Eppstein and 2. Heinrich von Cärnthen (b. ca. 1315, d. 4 Apr 1335), wittwer
v. Anna, Erbin von Böhmen, also m. Beatrix v. Savoien.

Brent Miller

Post by wjhonson
On Leo's great website here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00171947&tree=LEO
we see Adelaide (Eirene) daughter of Heinrich (Henry), Duke of
Brunswick-Grunbenhagen
She is there shown married to a Andronikos Palaiologos, Emperor of
Byzantium on 1 Mar 1318
Andronikos died in 1341 while she died in 1324
HOWEVER
Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 86
Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan, Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981
shows a certain "Adelaide b 1285 d 1320 d of Henry I, D of Brunswick-
Grunbenhagen"
married as his second wife to "Henry D of Carinthia, K of Bohemia
1307-10, b 1270 d 1335"
This Henry married firstly to Anne, dau of Wenceslas K of Bohemia and
then K of Poland by his wife Guta, d of Rudolph I Roman King
He married secondly as above to Adelaide
He married thirdly in 1328 to Beatrix of Savoy who died in 1331
What's going on here? Were there two Adelaides? Or were there two
Henrys? or did Louda and Maclagan really scruff things up here.
Will Johnson

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by Brent Miller
Behr, Kamill, _Genealogie der in Europa Regierenden Fürstenhäuser nebst der
Reihenfolge Sämmtlicher Päpste_, Tafel LI, p. 51 - lists two dau. (among
others) of Heinrich, Duke of Grobenhagen: 1) Irene (d. 16 Aug 1324) m.
Andronicus III. Paläologus and 2) Adelheid (d. 18 Aug 1320) m. 1. Gerhard v.
Eppstein and 2. Heinrich von Cärnthen (b. ca. 1315, d. 4 Apr 1335), wittwer
v. Anna, Erbin von Böhmen, also m. Beatrix v. Savoien.
Brent Miller

Post by wjhonson
On Leo's great website here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00171947&tree=LEO
we see Adelaide (Eirene) daughter of Heinrich (Henry), Duke of
Brunswick-Grunbenhagen
She is there shown married to a Andronikos Palaiologos, Emperor of
Byzantium on 1 Mar 1318
Andronikos died in 1341 while she died in 1324
HOWEVER
Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 86
Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan, Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981
shows a certain "Adelaide b 1285 d 1320 d of Henry I, D of Brunswick-
Grunbenhagen"
married as his second wife to "Henry D of Carinthia, K of Bohemia
1307-10, b 1270 d 1335"
This Henry married firstly to Anne, dau of Wenceslas K of Bohemia and
then K of Poland by his wife Guta, d of Rudolph I Roman King
He married secondly as above to Adelaide
He married thirdly in 1328 to Beatrix of Savoy who died in 1331
What's going on here? Were there two Adelaides? Or were there two
Henrys? or did Louda and Maclagan really scruff things up here.
Will Johnson

Schwennicke's "Europäische Stammtafeln", vol. 1.1, table 20 also gives
two daughters named Adelheid to Heinrich, Duke of Brunswick-
Grubenhagen. The elder one, said to be born ca. 1285, is the one who
married the King of Bohemia, while the younger Adelheid (also called
Eirene, presumably after her marriage), said to have been born ca.
1293, married Andronikos Paleologos.

So Louda and Maclagan didn't screw up...this time at least.