CP Addition: Marriage of Joan, 1st wife of Guy de Bryan, Lord Bryan

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup:

C.P. 2 (1912): 361-362 (sub Bryan) includes a good account of the life
of Guy de Bryan, K.G., Lord Bryan (died 1390). The editor states "he
appears to have m. 1stly, before 1343/4, Ann, or Alice, da. and h. of
William Holway, of Holway, Devon, but she was possibly his father's
wife."

C.P. 5 (1926): 463 (sub Fitzpayn) states that Sir Guy de Bryan's first
wife was named Joan. In footnote e on page 463, it is states that
Joan, 1st wife of Guy, was living 12 April 1348, citing as its source
Papal Letters, vol. iii, pg. 450. No explanation is provided for the
removal of Alice Holway given as Guy de Bryan's 1st wife in volume 2
of C.P.

That Guy de Bryan's first wife was named Joan can be demonstrated by
referring to two other sources. First, VCH Surrey 3 (1911): 275 shows
that Guy de Bryan "the younger" acquired the manor of Brettgrave (in
Epsom), Surrey from the abbot and convent of Chertsey in 1346. He
held this manor until 1348, when he conveyed it to various feoffees,
probably in trust for Henry, Duke of Lancaster. At the time of
acquiring this manor, Guy de Bryan was styled "the younger" to
distinguish him from his father of the same name who lived until 1349.

A review of the registers of Bishop William Edington indicates that
Joan, wife of Guy de Bryan, knight, obtained a license for a private
oratory for the manor of Brettgave in 1347. The following year, in
1348, Sir Guy de Bryan himself obtained a license for an oratory for
his manor of Brettgrave (in Epsom), Surrey [Reference: Reg. of William
Edington Bishop of Winchester 1346–1366, 2 (Hampshire Rec. Ser. 8)
(1987): 7, 23].

The specific item involving Joan, wife of Guy de Bryan, reads as
follows:

"56. License granted for a private oratory to Joan, wife of Guy de
Bryan, knight, in her manor of ‘Bertegrave' in the parish of Epsom.
Letter to the vicar of Epsom. Southwark, 31 January 1347."
[Reference: The Register of William Edington, Bishop of Winchester
1346–1366, 2 (Hampshire Rec. Ser. 8) (1987): 7].

Reviewing the information presented above, we find that Guy de Bryan,
Knt. (later Lord Bryan) married (1st) before 31 January 1347 Joan
_____. We know from CP 5 that Joan was living 12 April 1348. There
can be no question that this is the correct Guy de Bryan, and not his
father, as he was called Guy "the younger" when he acquired the manor
of Brettgrave in 1346.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: ***@msn.com

[Reedpcgen]

Did we (I) not VERY thoroughly discuss this Bryan family in the distant past,
or did I not post all that? If not, then great.

Paul

[Doug McDonald]

Post by Reedpcgen
Did we (I) not VERY thoroughly discuss this Bryan family in the distant past,
or did I not post all that? If not, then great.
Paul

Yes, there was a huge discussion. But, if I recall correctly,
I was unable to make anything of it, other than that "it's a useless
mess to those of us trying to ascertain the ancestry of the
Ironmongers et al".

Doug McDonald

[Gordon Kirkemo]

Paul, Tim, and Others,

The recent postings regarding Joan, the first wife of Guy Lord Bryan,
encouraged me to check my files and then the archives and other resources.
I am hoping to verify the apparent de Bryan line and to seek clarification
concerning Joan's family.

I found several early postings by Paul Reed ([1], [2], [3]) to be very
helpful (thanks very much Paul), and I want also to thank Tim Powys-Lybbe
for sharing his Gedcom [4], which was also very helpful. In addition, I
found several other postings in the Archives from which I've drawn the
following Bryan line:

1. Guy de Bryan/Brienne m. Jane de la Pele/Pole. [5] [6] It was noted by
TAF [7] that this de Bryan family is separate, and distinct, from the de
Brienne family associated with the crown of Jerusalem. (It is not clear
regarding the name of Guy's wife Jane-was she de la Pele or de la Pole?)
2. Guy de Bryan [5]. Married Eve de Tracy, but she was not the mother of
#3. [6] [8]
3. Guy de Bryan m. Sybil de Sulley [5] [6] daughter of Walter de Sulley and
Mabel de Somery [6]
4. Guy de Bryan [5] d. 1349 [1] [6] [9] m. Ann Holway [6] [9] daughter of
William. Dave Utzinger [5] identifies her as Anne Howley (possibly a typing
juxtaposition?). CP [9] identifies her as the possible wife for #5, but
seems to suggest a higher probability that she fits here.
5. Sir Guy de Bryan, Lord Bryan, [1] [2] [5] [6] [9] [10] b. abt 1309 [3] d.
17 Aug 1390 m. Joan de Carreu [1] [4] [10] daughter of Sir John de Carreu of
Carew, Pembroke.
6. Elizabeth de Bryan m. Robert Fitzpayne nee Grey. [1] [2] [10]

Joan is identified in CP [10] as the daughter of Sir John Carreu of Carew,
Pembroke. Since Carreu and Carew seem to be the same name, has someone
linked Sir John to the Carew line? If not, has someone found a Carreu
family in Carew, Pembroke that suggests an alternate lineage?

Tim, I note you do not link the Carreu and Carew families together in your
Gedcom. I assume this is due to a lack of evidence that would connect them?
I do note you identify the following Carew ascent from a potential John
candidate:

1. John Carew b. c1311 m. Margaret Mohun
2. John Carew d. bef 1324 m. Joanna Talbot
3. Nicholas (III) Carew b. c1265 m. Amicia Peverell
4. Nicholas (II) Carew d c1279 m. Avice Tuite
5. William Carew d bef 21 Mar 1271 m. Alice le Marshall
6. Nicholas Carew (I) d. bef. 11 Jul 1228 m. Catherine Myles
7. William Carrio d. bef 17 Sep 1213
8. Odo Carrio d. 1204 m. Margaret Fitztancred
9. William Carrio d. 1173 m. Marrio ____
10. Gerald Fitzwalter m. Nesta

It would seem both #1 and #2 are possible candidates to be the father of
Joan based on chronology. If Elizabeth de Bryan was born about 1332 [3],
then # 1 might be the best candidate, although #2 would still be possible.
Is there any reason not to believe that Joan de Carreu belongs to this
family? Does anyone have any information that might suggest which John (#s
1 or 2) might be her father?

To recap my questions for those who have stuck with me this far:

1. Are the two lineages (Bryan, Carew) accurate, and can anyone add or take
away from them?
2. The wife of Guy de Bryan (#1) above is identified as both Jane de la Pele
and Jane de la Pole. Can anyone identify which it is? Can anyone add to
her lineage?
3. The wife of Guy de Bryan (#5) is identified as Joan de Carreu. Is she a
member of the Carew family identified above and, if so, where does she fit
in? If she is not part of the Carew family, does anyone have any evidence
of a distinct Carreu family in Pembroke?

Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

Sincerely,
Gordon

[1] GEN-MED Archives: Paul Reed, 20 Oct 1998, "CP XIV; Fitzpayn, Grey,
Bryan"
[2] GEN-MED Archives: Paul Reed, 20 Oct 1998, "CP XIV; Fitzpayn, Grey,
Bryan"
[3] GEN-MED Archives: Paul Reed, 21 Oct 1998, "CP XIV; Fitzpayn, Grey,
Bryan"
[4] Tim Powys-Lybbe: Gedcom
[5] GEN-MED Archives: Dave Utzinger, 14 Mar 1998, "Re:
Brienne/Brian/FitzPayn"
[6] GEN-MED Archives: Jay Cary, 24 Jul 2000, "Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL-D Digest V00
#561"
[7] GEN-MED Archives: Todd Farmerie, 31 Oct 2000, "Re: Bryans"
[8] GEN-MED Archives: Richard Borthwick, 27 Jun 1997, "Re: Brienne, Brian,
Fitzpayn"
[9] Complete Peerage, Vol. II, pages 361-362.
[10] Complete Peerage, Vol. V, page 463.

-----Original Message-----
From: Reedpcgen [mailto:***@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 2:58 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: CP Addition: Marriage of Joan, 1st wife of Guy de Bryan, Lord
Bryan

Did we (I) not VERY thoroughly discuss this Bryan family in the distant
past,
or did I not post all that? If not, then great.

Paul

______________________________

[Gordon Kirkemo]

I just realized I made two errors in sending this message earlier. This is
a good example of why one should not send complicated messages at the end of
the day when tired.

First, I did not make it clear that the Carew lineage I cited was drawn
directly from the Gedcom of Tim Powys-Lybbe. I want to thank him again for
his generosity in sharing it with me.

Second, it appears I confused Elizabeth de Bryan and Joan de Carreu when
trying to use dates to determine where Joan might fit in to the Carew
family. Clearly, if Joan is the mother of Elizabeth, and Elizabeth was born
about 1332 as suggested by Paul Reed, then the John Carew identified, as #1
below (married to Margaret Mohun and born c1311), could not be the father of
Joan. In fact, Tim shows that John Carew #2 has a daughter named Joan in
his Gedcom, but he does not indicate that she is the same person as Joan de
Carreu. His note under John de Carreu suggests that he too is asking if
there is a connection to the Carews. So the relevant question here is does
Carreu=Carew?

I apologize for having to send a second message.

Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Kirkemo [mailto:***@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:04 PM
To: Reedpcgen; GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com; ***@powys.org
Subject: RE: CP Addition: Marriage of Joan, 1st wife of Guy de Bryan, Lord
Bryan

Paul, Tim, and Others,

The recent postings regarding Joan, the first wife of Guy Lord Bryan,
encouraged me to check my files and then the archives and other resources.
I am hoping to verify the apparent de Bryan line and to seek clarification
concerning Joan's family.

I found several early postings by Paul Reed ([1], [2], [3]) to be very
helpful (thanks very much Paul), and I want also to thank Tim Powys-Lybbe
for sharing his Gedcom [4], which was also very helpful. In addition, I
found several other postings in the Archives from which I've drawn the
following Bryan line:

1. Guy de Bryan/Brienne m. Jane de la Pele/Pole. [5] [6] It was noted by
TAF [7] that this de Bryan family is separate, and distinct, from the de
Brienne family associated with the crown of Jerusalem. (It is not clear
regarding the name of Guy's wife Jane-was she de la Pele or de la Pole?)
2. Guy de Bryan [5]. Married Eve de Tracy, but she was not the mother of
#3. [6] [8]
3. Guy de Bryan m. Sybil de Sulley [5] [6] daughter of Walter de Sulley and
Mabel de Somery [6]
4. Guy de Bryan [5] d. 1349 [1] [6] [9] m. Ann Holway [6] [9] daughter of
William. Dave Utzinger [5] identifies her as Anne Howley (possibly a typing
juxtaposition?). CP [9] identifies her as the possible wife for #5, but
seems to suggest a higher probability that she fits here.
5. Sir Guy de Bryan, Lord Bryan, [1] [2] [5] [6] [9] [10] b. abt 1309 [3] d.
17 Aug 1390 m. Joan de Carreu [1] [4] [10] daughter of Sir John de Carreu of
Carew, Pembroke.
6. Elizabeth de Bryan m. Robert Fitzpayne nee Grey. [1] [2] [10]

Joan is identified in CP [10] as the daughter of Sir John Carreu of Carew,
Pembroke. Since Carreu and Carew seem to be the same name, has someone
linked Sir John to the Carew line? If not, has someone found a Carreu
family in Carew, Pembroke that suggests an alternate lineage?

Tim, I note you do not link the Carreu and Carew families together in your
Gedcom. I assume this is due to a lack of evidence that would connect them?
I do note you identify the following Carew ascent from a potential John
candidate:

1. John Carew b. c1311 m. Margaret Mohun
2. John Carew d. bef 1324 m. Joanna Talbot
3. Nicholas (III) Carew b. c1265 m. Amicia Peverell
4. Nicholas (II) Carew d c1279 m. Avice Tuite
5. William Carew d bef 21 Mar 1271 m. Alice le Marshall
6. Nicholas Carew (I) d. bef. 11 Jul 1228 m. Catherine Myles
7. William Carrio d. bef 17 Sep 1213
8. Odo Carrio d. 1204 m. Margaret Fitztancred
9. William Carrio d. 1173 m. Marrio ____
10. Gerald Fitzwalter m. Nesta

It would seem both #1 and #2 are possible candidates to be the father of
Joan based on chronology. If Elizabeth de Bryan was born about 1332 [3],
then # 1 might be the best candidate, although #2 would still be possible.
Is there any reason not to believe that Joan de Carreu belongs to this
family? Does anyone have any information that might suggest which John (#s
1 or 2) might be her father?

To recap my questions for those who have stuck with me this far:

1. Are the two lineages (Bryan, Carew) accurate, and can anyone add or take
away from them?
2. The wife of Guy de Bryan (#1) above is identified as both Jane de la Pele
and Jane de la Pole. Can anyone identify which it is? Can anyone add to
her lineage?
3. The wife of Guy de Bryan (#5) is identified as Joan de Carreu. Is she a
member of the Carew family identified above and, if so, where does she fit
in? If she is not part of the Carew family, does anyone have any evidence
of a distinct Carreu family in Pembroke?

Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

Sincerely,
Gordon

[1] GEN-MED Archives: Paul Reed, 20 Oct 1998, "CP XIV; Fitzpayn, Grey,
Bryan"
[2] GEN-MED Archives: Paul Reed, 20 Oct 1998, "CP XIV; Fitzpayn, Grey,
Bryan"
[3] GEN-MED Archives: Paul Reed, 21 Oct 1998, "CP XIV; Fitzpayn, Grey,
Bryan"
[4] Tim Powys-Lybbe: Gedcom
[5] GEN-MED Archives: Dave Utzinger, 14 Mar 1998, "Re:
Brienne/Brian/FitzPayn"
[6] GEN-MED Archives: Jay Cary, 24 Jul 2000, "Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL-D Digest V00
#561"
[7] GEN-MED Archives: Todd Farmerie, 31 Oct 2000, "Re: Bryans"
[8] GEN-MED Archives: Richard Borthwick, 27 Jun 1997, "Re: Brienne, Brian,
Fitzpayn"
[9] Complete Peerage, Vol. II, pages 361-362.
[10] Complete Peerage, Vol. V, page 463.

-----Original Message-----
From: Reedpcgen [mailto:***@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 2:58 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: CP Addition: Marriage of Joan, 1st wife of Guy de Bryan, Lord
Bryan

Did we (I) not VERY thoroughly discuss this Bryan family in the distant
past,
or did I not post all that? If not, then great.

Paul

______________________________

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by Gordon Kirkemo
Tim, I note you do not link the Carreu and Carew families together in
your Gedcom. I assume this is due to a lack of evidence that would
connect them?

Any supporting (secondary) sources are included in the details so that
is where this question should be addressed. If I have not connected two
families it is because either I was not interested in them or I could
not find a reliable enough source to justify the connection. Finally
some sources are more reliable than others and all are suspect.

[Doug McDonald]

To the Newsgroup:

A little examination of the recent postings of one Douglas
Richardson will reveal, the those curious about such matters,
some interesting facts about what he is doing.

Basically, they say that he is done with Plantagenet Ancestry
and is working on Carolingian Ancestry. Note all the interest
in the bastards of Henry I .... these are most important
to such a chore for a person working on American immigrants
of Carolingian ancestry. Note also the Guy de Bryan (or Brienne).
This person is an ancestor, and a controversial one, of the
immigrants Ironmonger, Bernard, and Corderoy, who are at best
descendents of Henry I.

Doug McDonald