Reposted - went to Gen-Med but didn't through the gateway to SGM....
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <***@sbcglobal.net>
To: "Gen-Med" <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Foliot/Newmarch marriage
Thanks, John, for taking a break from your tax work to respond. This is
more interesting than taxes, isn't it? :-)
With respect to Margery the dau. of Adam de Newmarch and wife of Sir
Jordan
Foliot, I think you're quite accurate in saying below that "precision as
to
Margery's parentage is I think not yet achieved". I think that the
chronology does PERMIT that Margery was the daughter of the younger Adam
de
Newmarch (d. 1302/3) and his wife Isabel/Elizabeth Mowbray, but it doesn't
PRECLUDE that she was his sister instead and thus daughter of the elder
Sir
Adam (d. by early 1283) and his wife Joan.
1) CP 5:539 says that Sir Jordan Foliot, 1st Lord Foliot, "d. shortly
before 2 May 1299, aged 50 and more", thus idnciating a birth year no
later
than 1249. If Margery was born 1262-67 she would have been at least 13 to
18 years younger than him (and possibly more) - not impossible but at
least
a question.
2) The suit of 1279 referenced by Douglas Richardson and cited by you
below
indicates that Isabel/Elizabeth Mowbray was enfeoffed by her father of
certain lands. Since her father died in 1263, this had to happen no later
than that date. Douglas concluded that this implied that she was married
to
the younger Adam by 1263, but this doesn't necessarily follow, since the
lawsuit's wording (at least the abstract) refers to "Isabel daughter of
Roger de Mowbray in whom the fee and right lay and her husband Adam de
Neumarche". This suggests that Roger enfeoffed Isabel but not Adam and
could well indicate that their marriage took place after Roger's death -
which narrows the window for a birth of a son by Margery in 1283 and thus
suggests that Margery was not a daughter of thsi marriage.
I'm also struck by the fact that Douglas Richardson appears to have
changed
his view on Margery's parentage between 2002/2004 and the publication of
his
MCA book in 2005 - unless it's just a [triple] omission in MCA. In the
Newmarch entry in MCA, Margery is not included in the children of
Isabel/Elizabeth Mowbray and the younger Adam de Newmarch. In addition,
in
separate entries for the two children (Richard and Joan) of Sir Jordan
Foliot and Margery Newmarch, no mention is made of the Newmarch ancestry
elsewhere in the book. So either Douglas was right in 2002 and 2004 and
wrong in 2005, or wrong in 2002 and 2004 and right in 2005. At the
moment,
I'm leaning toward the latter possibility - but, as you say, there's still
uncertainty.....
----- Original Message -----
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: Foliot/Newmarch marriage
Dear John,
Just taking a brief break - not actively lurking, but will be
hopefully more active after 17 April.
Most of the pieces seem to fit re: the Foliot-Newmarch marriage,
but precision as to Margery's parentage is I think not yet achieved.
Sir Richard Foliot (d. ca. March 1299) was a supporter of King Henry
III against de Montfort - as a result, he had a grant of the King by a
' AA. 9 [vol. 117]. The King granted to Richard Folyot the mann'rs
of Adam de Newmarket [Newmarch] of Wilmersley [Womersley], Champsall,
Thorp, Bentley, Archesey, in the County of York. ' [Holmes, Wapentake
of Osgoldcross, YAJ X:363]
I tend to see the marriage of Sir Richard's son Jordan Foliot to
Margery de Newmarch as a mending of fences between Sir Adam de
Newmarch and Sir Richard. Jordan Foliot's son and heir, the next Sir
Richard Foliot, was born 25 Dec 1283: the IPM for his father, dated at
York, 23 June, 27 Edward (1299), states, ' Richard, son of the same
Jordan, is his nearest heir, and was of the age of fifteen on
Christmas last past ' [Yorks. Inqs. III:102-3]. It seems most likely
that Jordan's wife and Richard's mother was born say 1262-1267 given
Richard's birth date: this would work well with Sir Adam de Newmarch's
wife Isabel, or Elizabeth (evidently de Mowbray) being the mother of
Margery de Newmarch.
Doug Richardson some time ago cited evidence which stated that
' ...Elizabeth, daughter of Roger de Mowbray, married Adam de Newmarch
(d.ca. 1303), of Womersley, co. York. It cites a source which states
that Elizabeth had 30 librates of land in Althorpe, co. Lincoln in
marriage.' [see SGM archives]. She was further identified in a suit
' Ralph fitzGalien brought a writ of aiel against Robert
Bouchard.
Robert answered that he only claimed the free tenement and
could not answer without Isabel daughter of Roger de Mowbray
in whom the fee and right lay and her husband Adam de Neumarche.
'
I think the chronology points to Margery de Newmarch being a
daughter of the younger Sir Adam de Newmarch. I have a long-term
project intended to deal with the Newmarch family and its identifiable
cadets, but this is in its infancy and unfortunately nowhere near
completion at this date.......
The names Isabel and Elizabeth were often found in this period
referring to the same individual: I wonder if in fact Elizabeth was
sometimes used as a Biblical name for christening, when the name
Isabel/Isabella was the 'secular' name used by the family. Perhaps
another of the list with more expertise on medieval nomenclature could
address the validity of this suggestion.
Cheers,
John
----------------------
Post by John HigginsBack in 2002 and again in 2004 there were a number of interesting posts
on
the Foliot family, and particularly Sir Jordan Foliot, 1st Lord Foliot,
and
his wife Margery, dau. of Sir Adam Newmarch. In both 2002 and 2004 it was
indicated that Margery Newmarch was a daughter of the Adam who married
Isabel [or Elizabeth] Mowbray, although it appears equally possible from a
chronological perspective that Margery could have been a sister, rather
than
a daughter, of this Adam and thus a daughter of his father, also Adam per
CP
9:547.
Post by John HigginsIs it still the accepted conclusion that the younger Adam (mar. Mowbray)
was Margery's father? I ask because Douglas Richardson's "Magna Carta
Ancestry", published in 2005 after these posts, makes mention twice of
Jordan Foliot and his wife Margery, but does not connect Margery in either
case to her supposed parents Adam and Isabel/Elizabeth Mowbray who appear
elsewhere in the book. Is this simply an omission in MCA, or has there
been
a reconsideration that I missed in the archives?
Post by John HigginsJohn Ravilious, are you lurking out there? :-)
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