Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

[Janet Wolfe]

Sorry about the urls that turned out to be longer than permitted. I don't
know what to do for the url to an article in History of Parliament, but I
have discovered that one can remove "&seq=9&view=image&size=100" after the
page number in the url for the Hathi Trust items. So, here's an improved
version of the post:

In Magna Carta Ancestry, on p. 213, Joan, the wife of Thomas de Felton, is
identified as a daughter of Richard Walkfare, Knt., of Great Ryburgh,
Norfolk.

http://books.google.com/books?id=wHZcIRMhSEMC&pg=PA213

There are many references listed for the entire paragraph which includes
this information about Joan's father. Can someone please tell me which
source identifies Joan as a daughter of Richard Walkfare and by what
evidence? Is there evidence about who Joan's mother was?

Here is the evidence I have found concerning this question:

History of Parliament, in the article about John le Strange, states that
Joan de Felton may have been a half sister of John le Strange's wife
Eleanor, who the article says was the daughter of Richard Walkfare by his
wife Mary, sister of Thomas Morieux, constable of the Tower of London.

www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strange-sir-john-1
347-1417

Joan was the mother by Thomas de Felton of daughters Mary, Sibyl and Eleanor
de Felton. CIPM, v. 15, Richard II, p. 141:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=141&id=wu.89095770921

Mary de Felton was age 24 or 25 at the time of the inquisitions, so born by
1357. If so her mother Joan was born by say 1340. I think but have not yet
been able to prove that Richard de Walkfare was the younger brother of John
de Walkfare, son of Robert de Walkfare. John was 19 and more at the time of
his father's IPM, so born about 1315. If Richard was the younger brother of
John and the father of Joan, he would have been fairly young (under 25) at
the time of Joan's birth. For the IPM of Robert de Walkfare, see

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=389&id=wu.89080115777

Some secondary sources, erroneously it seems, say Richard de Walkfare's wife
was named Euphemia. It seems instead that Euphemia was the widow of John de
Walkfare (d. 1345) and earlier of William de la Beche (d. 1333). See the
IPMs, at the weblinks below, of William de la Beche, John de Walkfare, and
Euphemia de la Beche (d. 1361). John's IPM refers to Euphemia and Mary her
sister as daughters and heirs of Edmund de Comyn. While Euphemia appears to
have had sons named John by both husbands and a son named William by
William, her heir at her death was a daughter Elizabeth, age 30 (or 36) and
more, wife of Roger de Elmerugge.

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=365&id=wu.89080115777

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=410&id=wu.89080104300

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=31&id=wu.89095770848


The location of some of the land and names of the sisters suggest that
Euphemia's sister may have been the Mary of Pakenham whose IPM appears on p.
151 in the same volume as Euphemia's (except that Euphemia seems to have
died before Mary but Mary's sister Euphemia was her heir and entered and
alienated Mary's land without permission). If so, Euphemia's sister Mary
could not have been the Mary who was the wife of Richard de Walkfare.

The following item from CPR, Henry 4 vol 2, p. 354, dated 1404, Feb. 15,
identifies John le Strange and his wife Eleanor as the tenants of the land
that had been Thomas Morieux's:

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h4v2/body/Henry4vol2page0354.pdf

The evidence that Eleanor, wife of John le Strange was the daughter of
Richard Walkfare and his wife Mary (Morieaux?) is this IPM:
CIPM, v. 16, Richard II, p. 26:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=26&id=wu.89095770947


The writ for the IPM is in CPR:

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r2v2/body/Richard2vol2page0261.pdf


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[CE Wood]

Joan was sister to Alianor Walkefare Strange, according to _An essay
towards a topographical history of the county of Norfolk_ by Francis
Blomefield and Charles Parkin, 1775, found at http://tinyurl.com/7qzve4w.
search for Walkefar.

"INGALDESTHORP,
After this, Sir Richard Walkefare inherited it; and in 1349, the Lady
Eufemia de Walkefar, presented to this church;
....In the 43 of the said king [Edward III], Sir Thomas Felton, knight
of the garter; possessed it; but in the 8th of Richard II. Sir John
L'Estrange of Hunstanton, and Alianore his wife, who was daughter and
coheir of Sir Richard Walkfar, for 50O. marks, sold their right in
this and Dersingham manor, to the Lady Joan; relict of Sir Thomas
Felton, and sister to Alianore; and in the 12 of that king, the Lady
Joan settled it in trust, on Richard de Burnham, parson of Queen Hithe
in London."

To shorten long urls, go to http://tinyurl.com/


CE



If mentions a wife Eufemia for Richard. The two girls may well have
been half-sisters.

Post by Janet Wolfe
Sorry about the urls that turned out to be longer than permitted. I don't
know what to do for the url to an article in History of Parliament, but I
have discovered that one can remove "&seq=9&view=image&size=100" after the
page number in the url for the Hathi Trust items. So, here's an improved
In Magna Carta Ancestry, on p. 213, Joan, the wife of Thomas de Felton, is
identified as a daughter of Richard Walkfare, Knt., of Great Ryburgh,
Norfolk.
http://books.google.com/books?id=wHZcIRMhSEMC&pg=PA213
There are many references listed for the entire paragraph which includes
this information about Joan's father. Can someone please tell me which
source identifies Joan as a daughter of Richard Walkfare and by what
evidence? Is there evidence about who Joan's mother was?
History of Parliament, in the article about John le Strange, states that
Joan de Felton may have been a half sister of John le Strange's wife
Eleanor, who the article says was the daughter of Richard Walkfare by his
wife Mary, sister of Thomas Morieux, constable of the Tower of London.
www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strange-sir...
347-1417
Joan was the mother by Thomas de Felton of daughters Mary, Sibyl and Eleanor
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=141&id=wu.89095770921
Mary de Felton was age 24 or 25 at the time of the inquisitions, so born by
1357. If so her mother Joan was born by say 1340. I think but have not yet
been able to prove that Richard de Walkfare was the younger brother of John
de Walkfare, son of Robert de Walkfare. John was 19 and more at the time of
his father's IPM, so born about 1315. If Richard was the younger brother of
John and the father of Joan, he would have been fairly young (under 25) at
the time of Joan's birth. For the IPM of Robert de Walkfare, see
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=389&id=wu.89080115777
Some secondary sources, erroneously it seems, say Richard de Walkfare's wife
was named Euphemia. It seems instead that Euphemia was the widow of John de
Walkfare (d. 1345) and earlier of William de la Beche (d. 1333). See the
IPMs, at the weblinks below, of William de la Beche, John de Walkfare, and
Euphemia de la Beche (d. 1361). John's IPM refers to Euphemia and Mary her
sister as daughters and heirs of Edmund de Comyn. While Euphemia appears to
have had sons named John by both husbands and a son named William by
William, her heir at her death was a daughter Elizabeth, age 30 (or 36) and
more, wife of Roger de Elmerugge.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=365&id=wu.89080115777
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=410&id=wu.89080104300
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=31&id=wu.89095770848
The location of some of the land and names of the sisters suggest that
Euphemia's sister may have been the Mary of Pakenham whose IPM appears on p.
151 in the same volume as Euphemia's (except that Euphemia seems to have
died before Mary but Mary's sister Euphemia was her heir and entered and
alienated Mary's land without permission). If so, Euphemia's sister Mary
could not have been the Mary who was the wife of Richard de Walkfare.
The following item from CPR, Henry 4 vol 2, p. 354, dated 1404, Feb. 15,
identifies John le Strange and his wife Eleanor as the tenants of the land
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h4v2/body/Henry4vol2page0354.pdf
The evidence that Eleanor, wife of John le Strange was the daughter of
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=26&id=wu.89095770947
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r2v2/body/Richard2vol2page0261.pdf
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[Wjhonson]

This is mistaken.
The widow Eufemia was a generation earlier, she presented while Richard was yet living not having his daughter Eleanor until the middle 1350s, allowing her to be of-an-age to marry a boy under age in 1361 yet he of age by-not-in 1378

Thus it must be that Joan (Walkfare) Felton was not the sister or half sister of Eleanor (Walkfare) Strange but rather her AUNT.





-----Original Message-----
From: CE Wood <***@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 4:10 pm
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?


Joan was sister to Alianor Walkefare Strange, according to _An essay
towards a topographical history of the county of Norfolk_ by Francis
Blomefield and Charles Parkin, 1775, found at http://tinyurl.com/7qzve4w.
search for Walkefar.

"INGALDESTHORP,
After this, Sir Richard Walkefare inherited it; and in 1349, the Lady
Eufemia de Walkefar, presented to this church;
....In the 43 of the said king [Edward III], Sir Thomas Felton, knight
of the garter; possessed it; but in the 8th of Richard II. Sir John
L'Estrange of Hunstanton, and Alianore his wife, who was daughter and
coheir of Sir Richard Walkfar, for 50O. marks, sold their right in
this and Dersingham manor, to the Lady Joan; relict of Sir Thomas
Felton, and sister to Alianore; and in the 12 of that king, the Lady
Joan settled it in trust, on Richard de Burnham, parson of Queen Hithe
in London."

To shorten long urls, go to http://tinyurl.com/


CE



If mentions a wife Eufemia for Richard. The two girls may well have
been half-sisters.

Post by Janet Wolfe
Sorry about the urls that turned out to be longer than permitted. I don't
know what to do for the url to an article in History of Parliament, but I
have discovered that one can remove "&seq=9&view=image&size=100" after the
page number in the url for the Hathi Trust items. So, here's an improved
In Magna Carta Ancestry, on p. 213, Joan, the wife of Thomas de Felton, is
identified as a daughter of Richard Walkfare, Knt., of Great Ryburgh,
Norfolk.
http://books.google.com/books?id=wHZcIRMhSEMC&pg=PA213
There are many references listed for the entire paragraph which includes
this information about Joan's father. Can someone please tell me which
source identifies Joan as a daughter of Richard Walkfare and by what
evidence? Is there evidence about who Joan's mother was?
History of Parliament, in the article about John le Strange, states that
Joan de Felton may have been a half sister of John le Strange's wife
Eleanor, who the article says was the daughter of Richard Walkfare by his
wife Mary, sister of Thomas Morieux, constable of the Tower of London.
www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strange-sir...
347-1417
Joan was the mother by Thomas de Felton of daughters Mary, Sibyl and Eleanor
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=141&id=wu.89095770921
Mary de Felton was age 24 or 25 at the time of the inquisitions, so born by
1357. If so her mother Joan was born by say 1340. I think but have not yet
been able to prove that Richard de Walkfare was the younger brother of John
de Walkfare, son of Robert de Walkfare. John was 19 and more at the time of
his father's IPM, so born about 1315. If Richard was the younger brother of
John and the father of Joan, he would have been fairly young (under 25) at
the time of Joan's birth. For the IPM of Robert de Walkfare, see
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=389&id=wu.89080115777
Some secondary sources, erroneously it seems, say Richard de Walkfare's wife
was named Euphemia. It seems instead that Euphemia was the widow of John de
Walkfare (d. 1345) and earlier of William de la Beche (d. 1333). See the
IPMs, at the weblinks below, of William de la Beche, John de Walkfare, and
Euphemia de la Beche (d. 1361). John's IPM refers to Euphemia and Mary her
sister as daughters and heirs of Edmund de Comyn. While Euphemia appears to
have had sons named John by both husbands and a son named William by
William, her heir at her death was a daughter Elizabeth, age 30 (or 36) and
more, wife of Roger de Elmerugge.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=365&id=wu.89080115777
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=410&id=wu.89080104300
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=31&id=wu.89095770848
The location of some of the land and names of the sisters suggest that
Euphemia's sister may have been the Mary of Pakenham whose IPM appears on p.
151 in the same volume as Euphemia's (except that Euphemia seems to have
died before Mary but Mary's sister Euphemia was her heir and entered and
alienated Mary's land without permission). If so, Euphemia's sister Mary
could not have been the Mary who was the wife of Richard de Walkfare.
The following item from CPR, Henry 4 vol 2, p. 354, dated 1404, Feb. 15,
identifies John le Strange and his wife Eleanor as the tenants of the land
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h4v2/body/Henry4vol2page0354.pdf
The evidence that Eleanor, wife of John le Strange was the daughter of
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=26&id=wu.89095770947
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r2v2/body/Richard2vol2page0261.pdf
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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[Janet Wolfe]

Thanks, CE, for noting this book about Norfolk. I had seen it, but it
seemed, at best, a secondary source. Can you reconcile its account with the
IPMs and other primary sources I cited?

According to the IPM of John de Walkefare, the name of his widow was
Euphemia. I wondered if perhaps John de Walkefare's son by Euphemia died
young. If Richard de Walkefare was a younger brother of John, but Euphemia
held the land in dower for her life, then she would have presented in 1349
but the land may have descended to Richard on her death.

The IPM for Richard de Walkefare mentions that Joan and Thomas de Felton
held land that had belonged to Richard and his wife Mary after Richard's
death. The only heir of Richard and Mary named in his IPM was Eleanor who it
says was 14 in 1470 when Richard died. I couldn't tell from the wording of
the IPM whether Mary died before or after Richard. The executor of Richard's
will is mentioned, but I have not found the will. Have you seen any primary
source that indicates that Joan was the coheir of Richard de Walkefare?

Is there any evidence on whether, and if so how, Richard de Walkefare was
related to John de Walkefare? John de Walkefare (c.1315-1345) was the son of
Robert de Walkefare (d. 1333), and Robert was the son of an earlier John de
Walkefare.

There are many abstracts on The National Archives website concerning the
land of Robert de Walkfare. Robert's land was forfeited in 1322 when he was
part of a rebellion against Edward II and returned under Edward III. Also
abstracted on TNA is an item concerning a land transfer by Mary late the
wife of Edmund de Pakenham to Euphemia late the wife of John de Walkefare,
dated 29 Edward III. Perhaps this item provides additional evidence about
the identity Euphemia's sister Mary.

I wonder if Joan de Felton could have been a daughter of Robert de Walkefare
and a sister of John de Walkefare and Richard de Walkefare?

It seems that the marriage of John le Strange and Eleanor, daughter of
Richard de Walkefare, was arranged when Eleanor was very young (27 Sept
1361). See

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12

The language of the above agreement suggests that Richard may have had more
than one daughter at the time, but from the IPM of Thomas de Felton it
appears that Thomas de Felton and Joan must have been married by 1356.

W.M. Ormrod, _Fourteenth Century England III_ (2004), 91, states that
Richard de Walkefare was the father-in-law of Thomas de Felton and shows
Thomas' wife Joan as Richard's daughter in a chart on the next page. However
Ormrod's citation for this claim is a CPR entry in which Thomas de Felton
named Richard de Walkefare as one of his attorneys when he was going
overseas in 1362. The CPR entry says nothing about their relationship, if
any. See:

http://books.google.com/books?id=mxrkIuYVaJgC&pg=PA91

and

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v12/body/Edward3vol12page0232.pdf

Here is another book, _The Manuscripts of Rye and Hereford Corporations_,
Volume 13, Part 4, that discusses the Walkefare lands in Great Ryburgh:

http://books.google.com/books?id=xtQLAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA572

See p. 422 for the 1311 deed transferring Great Ryburgh to Robert son of
John de Walkefare of Iselham.
The 1353 item in the above book on p. 423 suggests that Richard was old
enough to have been a son of Robert de Walkefare. The deeds of Joan, widow
of Thomas de Felton, on the next page do not mention a relationship between
Joan de Felton and Richard de Walkefare, while the related deed at the top
of p. 425 definitely calls John le Strange's wife Eleanor "daughter and heir
of the blood" of Richard de Walkefare.

The following item about Iselham from British History Online's transcription
of VCH suggests that Robert de Walkefare had sons John, Richard, and Thomas.
(See footnote 14 regarding the claim that Joan de Felton was a daughter of
Richard de Walkefare.):

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=18928

By 1302, perhaps from c. 1286, the Rochester fee was held by John Walkefare.
(fn. 98) John was succeeded c. 1310 by his son Robert Walkefare, kt. by 1314
(fn. 99) and lord by marriage of Great Ryburgh (Norf.). (fn. 1) A vigorous
supporter of Edward II's opponents, (fn. 2) Sir Robert was imprisoned from
1322; (fn. 3) the king granted his forfeited Isleham land, c. 65 a., in 1326
to Roger de Wateville. (fn. 4) Sir Robert recovered that manor when Edward
fell in 1326, (fn. 5) and was granted free warren over his Isleham demesne
in 1332. (fn. 6) In 1328 he had secured a lease of Great Isleham manor from
Florence de la Mare during her life. (fn. 7) He died late in 1333. His heir,
his eldest son John, just of age, (fn. 8) died in 1345, holding two thirds
of the Rochester manor. His mother Margaret had the rest, besides 60 a. held
of other fees there, jointly with John's wife Eupheme (née Comyn). Eupheme,
who apparently survived their son John (b. c. 1336), retained Isleham (fn.
9) until her death in 1361. The probable heir, her husband's next brother
Sir Richard Walkefare, (fn. 10) allowed his younger brother Thomas, kt. by
1350, to succeed to the Isleham manor by 1363. (fn. 11) Sir Thomas, who
served the Black Prince in Aquitaine, (fn. 12) was hanged by the French in
1370. (fn. 13) Sir Richard had died earlier that year. His daughter and heir
Eleanor and her husband, Sir John le Strange of Hunstanton (Norf.), released
the Walkefares' Norfolk lands in 1384 to Joan, widow of Sir Thomas Felton
K.G. (d. 1381), with whom Joan may have occupied them since 1370. (fn. 14)
Felton and Joan may have kept some interests at Isleham, attached to their
neighbouring manor in Fordham. (fn. 15)
Footnotes:
98 Ibid. i. 143; cf. B.L. Cott. MS. Nero C. ix, f. 142; P.R.O., JUST
1/86, rot. 35d.; Cal. Chart. R. 1257–1300, 256; Cal. Inq. Misc. ii, p. 18;
Cal. Pat. 1307–13, 369; Rot. Parl. i. 318. No Walkefares mentioned at
Isleham, Rot. Hund. ii. 504–5.
99 B.L. Eg. MS. 3047, f. 199v.; cf. Cal. Close, 1313–18, 98.
1 Walkefare pedigree in W. Rye, Norf. Families (Norwich, 1913), ii.
972–3, more reliable than that in Blomefield, Norf. vi. 163–4.
2 Knights of Edw. I, v (Harl. Soc. lxxxiv), 130–1; cf. Cal. Pat.
1313–17, 21; 1321–4, 18; 1330–4, 172; Cal. Close, 1318–23, 469.
3 Cal. Close, 1318–23, 425, 580; Cal. Chanc. Warr. 1244–1326, 563;
Cal. Pat. 1327–30, 42.
4 Cal. Pat. 1321–4, 81; 1324–7, 133, 243; cf. P.R.O., CP 25/1/27/62,
no. 18.
5 Cal. Pat. 1327–30, 86, 544; cf. Reg. Hamonis Hethe (Cant. & York
Soc.), ii. 496; B.L. Eg. MS. 3047, f. 199v.; P.R.O., CP 25/1/28/67, no. 20.
6 Cal. Chart. R. 1327–41, 272.
7 B.L. Harl. Ch. 50 D. 51; cf. Cal. Pat. 1324–7, 347.
8 Cal. Fine R. 1327–37, 379, 418; Cal. Inq. p.m. vii, p. 389; cf. B.L.
Eg. MS. 3047, f. 200v.
9 Cal. Inq. p.m. viii, p. 410; cf. Cal. Close, 1333–7, 275; P.R.O., CP
25/1/287/40, no. 266.
10 e.g. Feud. Aids, i. 159; B.L. Harl. Ch. 57 D.41; Cal. Inq. p.m. xi,
p. 31. For Sir Ric.'s paternity, Thos. Walsingham, Gesta Abbatum S. Albani
(Rolls Ser.), ii. 130–1.
11 e.g. B.L. Harl. Ch. 57 D.43; P.R.O., CP 25/1/28/81, no. 14; cf. Cal.
Pat. 1349–54, 265; 1361–4, 64.
12 Chandos Herald, Life of Black Prince, ed. M.K. Pope, pp. 132, 256;
cf. Black Prince's Reg. pt. iv, 308.
13 Hist. Gén. de Languedoc, ed. C. Devic & J. Vaissete etc., ix (2),
821.
14 Cal. Inq. p.m. xvi, p. 26; P.R.O., CP 25/1/168/178, no. 16; cf. Cal.
Papal Reg. iv. 54–5; Hist. Parl., Commons, 1386–1422, iv. 500. For Felton,
D.N.B. vi. 1173–4. Blomefield, Norf. x. 317, makes Joan dau. of Sir Ric.;
but not so in his inq. p.m.
15 Above, Fordham, manors. The 'Beckhall' manor which Joan owned c.
1384–1408 (Cal. Close, 1381–5, 563–4; 1405–9, 385) was, however, at, or
near, Banham (Norf.): cf. Blomefield, Norf. i. 345–50, 362–3.

CE, thanks for the info about TinyURL. That is an interesting approach to
the problem of long URLs. I think, however, that interested readers can copy
and paste chopped-up URLs, and I do prefer to have meaningful info about the
website in a URL.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of CE Wood
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:40 PM
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Joan was sister to Alianor Walkefare Strange, according to _An essay
towards a topographical history of the county of Norfolk_ by Francis
Blomefield and Charles Parkin, 1775, found at http://tinyurl.com/7qzve4w.
search for Walkefar.

"INGALDESTHORP,
After this, Sir Richard Walkefare inherited it; and in 1349, the Lady
Eufemia de Walkefar, presented to this church;
....In the 43 of the said king [Edward III], Sir Thomas Felton, knight
of the garter; possessed it; but in the 8th of Richard II. Sir John
L'Estrange of Hunstanton, and Alianore his wife, who was daughter and
coheir of Sir Richard Walkfar, for 50O. marks, sold their right in
this and Dersingham manor, to the Lady Joan; relict of Sir Thomas
Felton, and sister to Alianore; and in the 12 of that king, the Lady
Joan settled it in trust, on Richard de Burnham, parson of Queen Hithe
in London."

To shorten long urls, go to http://tinyurl.com/

CE

If mentions a wife Eufemia for Richard. The two girls may well have
been half-sisters.

[Wjhonson]

We know that Thomas and Joan were married by 1357 as his eldest co-heiress Mary was aged 24 4R2
This proves that Joan was a generation earlier than Eleanor who was not BORN until 1356
Why cannot John be the father of both Joan and Richard ?







-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe <***@umich.edu>
To: 'CE Wood' <***@msn.com>; gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 9:52 pm
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?


Thanks, CE, for noting this book about Norfolk. I had seen it, but it
seemed, at best, a secondary source. Can you reconcile its account with the
IPMs and other primary sources I cited?

According to the IPM of John de Walkefare, the name of his widow was
Euphemia. I wondered if perhaps John de Walkefare's son by Euphemia died
young. If Richard de Walkefare was a younger brother of John, but Euphemia
held the land in dower for her life, then she would have presented in 1349
but the land may have descended to Richard on her death.

The IPM for Richard de Walkefare mentions that Joan and Thomas de Felton
held land that had belonged to Richard and his wife Mary after Richard's
death. The only heir of Richard and Mary named in his IPM was Eleanor who it
says was 14 in 1470 when Richard died. I couldn't tell from the wording of
the IPM whether Mary died before or after Richard. The executor of Richard's
will is mentioned, but I have not found the will. Have you seen any primary
source that indicates that Joan was the coheir of Richard de Walkefare?

Is there any evidence on whether, and if so how, Richard de Walkefare was
related to John de Walkefare? John de Walkefare (c.1315-1345) was the son of
Robert de Walkefare (d. 1333), and Robert was the son of an earlier John de
Walkefare.

There are many abstracts on The National Archives website concerning the
land of Robert de Walkfare. Robert's land was forfeited in 1322 when he was
part of a rebellion against Edward II and returned under Edward III. Also
abstracted on TNA is an item concerning a land transfer by Mary late the
wife of Edmund de Pakenham to Euphemia late the wife of John de Walkefare,
dated 29 Edward III. Perhaps this item provides additional evidence about
the identity Euphemia's sister Mary.

I wonder if Joan de Felton could have been a daughter of Robert de Walkefare
and a sister of John de Walkefare and Richard de Walkefare?

It seems that the marriage of John le Strange and Eleanor, daughter of
Richard de Walkefare, was arranged when Eleanor was very young (27 Sept
1361). See

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12

The language of the above agreement suggests that Richard may have had more
than one daughter at the time, but from the IPM of Thomas de Felton it
appears that Thomas de Felton and Joan must have been married by 1356.

W.M. Ormrod, _Fourteenth Century England III_ (2004), 91, states that
Richard de Walkefare was the father-in-law of Thomas de Felton and shows
Thomas' wife Joan as Richard's daughter in a chart on the next page. However
Ormrod's citation for this claim is a CPR entry in which Thomas de Felton
named Richard de Walkefare as one of his attorneys when he was going
overseas in 1362. The CPR entry says nothing about their relationship, if
any. See:

http://books.google.com/books?id=mxrkIuYVaJgC&pg=PA91

and

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v12/body/Edward3vol12page0232.pdf

Here is another book, _The Manuscripts of Rye and Hereford Corporations_,
Volume 13, Part 4, that discusses the Walkefare lands in Great Ryburgh:

http://books.google.com/books?id=xtQLAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA572

See p. 422 for the 1311 deed transferring Great Ryburgh to Robert son of
John de Walkefare of Iselham.
The 1353 item in the above book on p. 423 suggests that Richard was old
enough to have been a son of Robert de Walkefare. The deeds of Joan, widow
of Thomas de Felton, on the next page do not mention a relationship between
Joan de Felton and Richard de Walkefare, while the related deed at the top
of p. 425 definitely calls John le Strange's wife Eleanor "daughter and heir
of the blood" of Richard de Walkefare.

The following item about Iselham from British History Online's transcription
of VCH suggests that Robert de Walkefare had sons John, Richard, and Thomas.
(See footnote 14 regarding the claim that Joan de Felton was a daughter of
Richard de Walkefare.):

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=18928

By 1302, perhaps from c. 1286, the Rochester fee was held by John Walkefare.
(fn. 98) John was succeeded c. 1310 by his son Robert Walkefare, kt. by 1314
(fn. 99) and lord by marriage of Great Ryburgh (Norf.). (fn. 1) A vigorous
supporter of Edward II's opponents, (fn. 2) Sir Robert was imprisoned from
1322; (fn. 3) the king granted his forfeited Isleham land, c. 65 a., in 1326
to Roger de Wateville. (fn. 4) Sir Robert recovered that manor when Edward
fell in 1326, (fn. 5) and was granted free warren over his Isleham demesne
in 1332. (fn. 6) In 1328 he had secured a lease of Great Isleham manor from
Florence de la Mare during her life. (fn. 7) He died late in 1333. His heir,
his eldest son John, just of age, (fn. 8) died in 1345, holding two thirds
of the Rochester manor. His mother Margaret had the rest, besides 60 a. held
of other fees there, jointly with John's wife Eupheme (née Comyn). Eupheme,
who apparently survived their son John (b. c. 1336), retained Isleham (fn.
9) until her death in 1361. The probable heir, her husband's next brother
Sir Richard Walkefare, (fn. 10) allowed his younger brother Thomas, kt. by
1350, to succeed to the Isleham manor by 1363. (fn. 11) Sir Thomas, who
served the Black Prince in Aquitaine, (fn. 12) was hanged by the French in
1370. (fn. 13) Sir Richard had died earlier that year. His daughter and heir
Eleanor and her husband, Sir John le Strange of Hunstanton (Norf.), released
the Walkefares' Norfolk lands in 1384 to Joan, widow of Sir Thomas Felton
K.G. (d. 1381), with whom Joan may have occupied them since 1370. (fn. 14)
Felton and Joan may have kept some interests at Isleham, attached to their
neighbouring manor in Fordham. (fn. 15)
Footnotes:
98 Ibid. i. 143; cf. B.L. Cott. MS. Nero C. ix, f. 142; P.R.O., JUST
1/86, rot. 35d.; Cal. Chart. R. 1257–1300, 256; Cal. Inq. Misc. ii, p. 18;
Cal. Pat. 1307–13, 369; Rot. Parl. i. 318. No Walkefares mentioned at
Isleham, Rot. Hund. ii. 504–5.
99 B.L. Eg. MS. 3047, f. 199v.; cf. Cal. Close, 1313–18, 98.
1 Walkefare pedigree in W. Rye, Norf. Families (Norwich, 1913), ii.
972–3, more reliable than that in Blomefield, Norf. vi. 163–4.
2 Knights of Edw. I, v (Harl. Soc. lxxxiv), 130–1; cf. Cal. Pat.
1313–17, 21; 1321–4, 18; 1330–4, 172; Cal. Close, 1318–23, 469.
3 Cal. Close, 1318–23, 425, 580; Cal. Chanc. Warr. 1244–1326, 563;
Cal. Pat. 1327–30, 42.
4 Cal. Pat. 1321–4, 81; 1324–7, 133, 243; cf. P.R.O., CP 25/1/27/62,
no. 18.
5 Cal. Pat. 1327–30, 86, 544; cf. Reg. Hamonis Hethe (Cant. & York
Soc.), ii. 496; B.L. Eg. MS. 3047, f. 199v.; P.R.O., CP 25/1/28/67, no. 20.
6 Cal. Chart. R. 1327–41, 272.
7 B.L. Harl. Ch. 50 D. 51; cf. Cal. Pat. 1324–7, 347.
8 Cal. Fine R. 1327–37, 379, 418; Cal. Inq. p.m. vii, p. 389; cf. B.L.
Eg. MS. 3047, f. 200v.
9 Cal. Inq. p.m. viii, p. 410; cf. Cal. Close, 1333–7, 275; P.R.O., CP
25/1/287/40, no. 266.
10 e.g. Feud. Aids, i. 159; B.L. Harl. Ch. 57 D.41; Cal. Inq. p.m. xi,
p. 31. For Sir Ric.'s paternity, Thos. Walsingham, Gesta Abbatum S. Albani
(Rolls Ser.), ii. 130–1.
11 e.g. B.L. Harl. Ch. 57 D.43; P.R.O., CP 25/1/28/81, no. 14; cf. Cal.
Pat. 1349–54, 265; 1361–4, 64.
12 Chandos Herald, Life of Black Prince, ed. M.K. Pope, pp. 132, 256;
cf. Black Prince's Reg. pt. iv, 308.
13 Hist. Gén. de Languedoc, ed. C. Devic & J. Vaissete etc., ix (2),
821.
14 Cal. Inq. p.m. xvi, p. 26; P.R.O., CP 25/1/168/178, no. 16; cf. Cal.
Papal Reg. iv. 54–5; Hist. Parl., Commons, 1386–1422, iv. 500. For Felton,
D.N.B. vi. 1173–4. Blomefield, Norf. x. 317, makes Joan dau. of Sir Ric.;
but not so in his inq. p.m.
15 Above, Fordham, manors. The 'Beckhall' manor which Joan owned c.
1384–1408 (Cal. Close, 1381–5, 563–4; 1405–9, 385) was, however, at, or
near, Banham (Norf.): cf. Blomefield, Norf. i. 345–50, 362–3.

CE, thanks for the info about TinyURL. That is an interesting approach to
the problem of long URLs. I think, however, that interested readers can copy
and paste chopped-up URLs, and I do prefer to have meaningful info about the
website in a URL.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of CE Wood
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:40 PM
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Joan was sister to Alianor Walkefare Strange, according to _An essay
towards a topographical history of the county of Norfolk_ by Francis
Blomefield and Charles Parkin, 1775, found at http://tinyurl.com/7qzve4w.
search for Walkefar.

"INGALDESTHORP,
After this, Sir Richard Walkefare inherited it; and in 1349, the Lady
Eufemia de Walkefar, presented to this church;
....In the 43 of the said king [Edward III], Sir Thomas Felton, knight
of the garter; possessed it; but in the 8th of Richard II. Sir John
L'Estrange of Hunstanton, and Alianore his wife, who was daughter and
coheir of Sir Richard Walkfar, for 50O. marks, sold their right in
this and Dersingham manor, to the Lady Joan; relict of Sir Thomas
Felton, and sister to Alianore; and in the 12 of that king, the Lady
Joan settled it in trust, on Richard de Burnham, parson of Queen Hithe
in London."

To shorten long urls, go to http://tinyurl.com/

CE

If mentions a wife Eufemia for Richard. The two girls may well have
been half-sisters.



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message

[Janet Wolfe]

I, too, have speculated that Joan may have been a sister rather than a
daughter of Richard de Walkefare, but is there any evidence that Joan's was
a Walkefare?

Oxford DNB states that Joan was the daughter of Richard, but does not
provide a specific citation. I think it must be an error.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Wjhonson
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 12:39 AM
To: ***@msn.com; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?


This is mistaken.
The widow Eufemia was a generation earlier, she presented while Richard was
yet living not having his daughter Eleanor until the middle 1350s, allowing
her to be of-an-age to marry a boy under age in 1361 yet he of age by-not-in
1378

Thus it must be that Joan (Walkfare) Felton was not the sister or half
sister of Eleanor (Walkfare) Strange but rather her AUNT.





-----Original Message-----
From: CE Wood <***@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 4:10 pm
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?


Joan was sister to Alianor Walkefare Strange, according to _An essay
towards a topographical history of the county of Norfolk_ by Francis
Blomefield and Charles Parkin, 1775, found at http://tinyurl.com/7qzve4w.
search for Walkefar.

"INGALDESTHORP,
After this, Sir Richard Walkefare inherited it; and in 1349, the Lady
Eufemia de Walkefar, presented to this church;
....In the 43 of the said king [Edward III], Sir Thomas Felton, knight
of the garter; possessed it; but in the 8th of Richard II. Sir John
L'Estrange of Hunstanton, and Alianore his wife, who was daughter and
coheir of Sir Richard Walkfar, for 50O. marks, sold their right in
this and Dersingham manor, to the Lady Joan; relict of Sir Thomas
Felton, and sister to Alianore; and in the 12 of that king, the Lady
Joan settled it in trust, on Richard de Burnham, parson of Queen Hithe
in London."

To shorten long urls, go to http://tinyurl.com/


CE



If mentions a wife Eufemia for Richard. The two girls may well have
been half-sisters.

[Wjhonson]

I think it matters who was holding what... when.
Since Richard died while his sole heiress was a minor, who held his lands and her marriage until she came of age or married? That would be important to know





-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe <***@umich.edu>
To: 'Wjhonson' <***@aol.com>; wood_ce <***@msn.com>; gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:21 pm
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?


I, too, have speculated that Joan may have been a sister rather than a
daughter of Richard de Walkefare, but is there any evidence that Joan's was
a Walkefare?

Oxford DNB states that Joan was the daughter of Richard, but does not
provide a specific citation. I think it must be an error.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Wjhonson
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 12:39 AM
To: ***@msn.com; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?


This is mistaken.
The widow Eufemia was a generation earlier, she presented while Richard was
yet living not having his daughter Eleanor until the middle 1350s, allowing
her to be of-an-age to marry a boy under age in 1361 yet he of age by-not-in
1378

Thus it must be that Joan (Walkfare) Felton was not the sister or half
sister of Eleanor (Walkfare) Strange but rather her AUNT.





-----Original Message-----
From: CE Wood <***@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 4:10 pm
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?


Joan was sister to Alianor Walkefare Strange, according to _An essay
towards a topographical history of the county of Norfolk_ by Francis
Blomefield and Charles Parkin, 1775, found at http://tinyurl.com/7qzve4w.
search for Walkefar.

"INGALDESTHORP,
After this, Sir Richard Walkefare inherited it; and in 1349, the Lady
Eufemia de Walkefar, presented to this church;
....In the 43 of the said king [Edward III], Sir Thomas Felton, knight
of the garter; possessed it; but in the 8th of Richard II. Sir John
L'Estrange of Hunstanton, and Alianore his wife, who was daughter and
coheir of Sir Richard Walkfar, for 50O. marks, sold their right in
this and Dersingham manor, to the Lady Joan; relict of Sir Thomas
Felton, and sister to Alianore; and in the 12 of that king, the Lady
Joan settled it in trust, on Richard de Burnham, parson of Queen Hithe
in London."

To shorten long urls, go to http://tinyurl.com/


CE



If mentions a wife Eufemia for Richard. The two girls may well have
been half-sisters.

[Janet Wolfe]

Yes, that is a good question. Richard's IPM suggests that his executor held
the land for a few years and then John and Joan de Felton and then widow
Joan. Eleanor may have gone to live with her future husband's family well
before her father died.





From: Wjhonson [mailto:***@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:26 AM
To: ***@umich.edu; ***@msn.com; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



I think it matters who was holding what... when.
Since Richard died while his sole heiress was a minor, who held his lands
and her marriage until she came of age or married? That would be important
to know





-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe <***@umich.edu>
To: 'Wjhonson' <***@aol.com>; wood_ce <***@msn.com>; gen-medieval
<gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:21 pm
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

I, too, have speculated that Joan may have been a sister rather than a
daughter of Richard de Walkefare, but is there any evidence that Joan's was
a Walkefare?

Oxford DNB states that Joan was the daughter of Richard, but does not
provide a specific citation. I think it must be an error.

[Janet Wolfe]

She died about 1361, her heir was her daughter Elizabeth, wife of Roger Elmerugge, and she was either 30 or 36, it says both. There were links to the relevant IPMs in the first post. Here is the URL for Euphemia’s again for convenience:



http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1 <http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=31&id=wu.89095770848> &num=31&id=wu.89095770848



(It continues on the next page, which reports a slightly different death date as well as a different age for the heir. Also see the IPM for Euphemia’s sister Mary de Pakenham in the same volume.)



From: Wjhonson [mailto:***@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:47 AM
To: ***@umich.edu; ***@msn.com; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



When did Euphemia die, who was Euphemia's heir, what were the lands and how old was this heiress





-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe <***@umich.edu>
To: 'Wjhonson' <***@aol.com>; wood_ce <***@msn.com>; gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:40 pm
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Chronologically, that would be possible, but then wouldn’t Joan have been a coheir of Euphemia? Euphemia’s heir was a daughter who must have been by Euphemia’s first husband. Presumably that daughter would inherit the first husband’s land, but shouldn’t a daughter of John inherit his lands and half of Euphemia’s?



From: Wjhonson [mailto:***@aol.com <mailto:***@aol.com?> ]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:32 AM
To: ***@umich.edu; ***@msn.com; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



With that new information, Richard could be a brother to John, while Joan could be John's *daughter*

[Wjhonson]

Well if you are assuming that Euphemia had a first husband, than she could also be a second wife.
So Joan could be a daughter by a first wife of John Walkfare, or she could be his sister.





-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe <***@umich.edu>
To: 'Wjhonson' <***@aol.com>; wood_ce <***@msn.com>; gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 11:01 pm
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



She died about 1361, her heir was her daughter Elizabeth, wife of Roger Elmerugge, and she was either 30 or 36, it says both. There were links to the relevant IPMs in the first post. Here is the URL for Euphemia’s again for convenience:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=31&id=wu.89095770848

(It continues on the next page, which reports a slightly different death date as well as a different age for the heir. Also see the IPM for Euphemia’s sister Mary de Pakenham in the same volume.)


From: Wjhonson [mailto:***@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:47 AM
To: ***@umich.edu; ***@msn.com; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



When did Euphemia die, who was Euphemia's heir, what were the lands and how old was this heiress





-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe <***@umich.edu>
To: 'Wjhonson' <***@aol.com>; wood_ce <***@msn.com>; gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:40 pm
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?


Chronologically, that would be possible, but then wouldn’t Joan have been a coheir of Euphemia? Euphemia’s heir was a daughter who must have been by Euphemia’s first husband. Presumably that daughter would inherit the first husband’s land, but shouldn’t a daughter of John inherit his lands and half of Euphemia’s?




From: Wjhonson [mailto:***@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:32 AM
To: ***@umich.edu; ***@msn.com; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?





With that new information, Richard could be a brother to John, while Joan could be John's *daughter*

[Janet Wolfe]

John was 19 in 1334 and he and Euphemia were married soon after that. Thanks for helping me think through all of the possibilities. I think it will be easier to discuss the possibilities if you read each of the IPMs and other documents. Did my links to the IPMs at Hathi Trust and the other items work correctly? I do think Joan may have been John’s (and Richard’s) sister. The VCH article says Richard inherited his brother John’s land and then passed it on to their younger brother Thomas. So it would seem plausible for Richard to have passed some of the inheritance to a sister and her husband, and that could be Joan and her husband Thomas de Felton. (VCH, however, has lots of errors, so I’m not inclined to trust its claims unless they are backed by logically interpreted contemporary sources.)



From: Wjhonson [mailto:***@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 2:11 AM
To: ***@umich.edu; ***@msn.com; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



Well if you are assuming that Euphemia had a first husband, than she could also be a second wife.
So Joan could be a daughter by a first wife of John Walkfare, or she could be his sister.





-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe <***@umich.edu>
To: 'Wjhonson' <***@aol.com>; wood_ce <***@msn.com>; gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 11:01 pm
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

She died about 1361, her heir was her daughter Elizabeth, wife of Roger Elmerugge, and she was either 30 or 36, it says both. There were links to the relevant IPMs in the first post. Here is the URL for Euphemia’s again for convenience:



<http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=31&id=wu.89095770848> http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=31&id=wu.89095770848



(It continues on the next page, which reports a slightly different death date as well as a different age for the heir. Also see the IPM for Euphemia’s sister Mary de Pakenham in the same volume.)



From: Wjhonson [ <mailto:***@aol.com?> mailto:***@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:47 AM
To: <mailto:***@umich.edu> ***@umich.edu; <mailto:***@msn.com> ***@msn.com; <mailto:gen-***@rootsweb.com> gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



When did Euphemia die, who was Euphemia's heir, what were the lands and how old was this heiress





-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe < <mailto:***@umich.edu> ***@umich.edu>
To: 'Wjhonson' < <mailto:***@aol.com> ***@aol.com>; wood_ce < <mailto:***@msn.com> ***@msn.com>; gen-medieval < <mailto:gen-***@rootsweb.com> gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:40 pm
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Chronologically, that would be possible, but then wouldn’t Joan have been a coheir of Euphemia? Euphemia’s heir was a daughter who must have been by Euphemia’s first husband. Presumably that daughter would inherit the first husband’s land, but shouldn’t a daughter of John inherit his lands and half of Euphemia’s?



From: Wjhonson [ <mailto:***@aol.com?> mailto:***@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:32 AM
To: <mailto:***@umich.edu> ***@umich.edu; <mailto:***@msn.com> ***@msn.com; <mailto:gen-***@rootsweb.com> gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



With that new information, Richard could be a brother to John, while Joan could be John's *daughter*

[John H]

Hi CE and Group:
Dont need to go to tinyurl to make a long url stay together.

just place a " > and a space" at beginning of url and a "a space and a <" at
the end of the url namely
in other words enclose the url as below

www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strange-sir-john-1347-1417
<

or

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1-1-12#1-1-1-12 <

Then when they go over multiple lines it will all work if you click on it.
Simple really!
regards
John H


"CE Wood" <***@msn.com> wrote in message news:fa1acf7d-8a1c-4abe-8709-***@n8g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
Joan was sister to Alianor Walkefare Strange, according to _An essay
towards a topographical history of the county of Norfolk_ by Francis
Blomefield and Charles Parkin, 1775, found at http://tinyurl.com/7qzve4w.
search for Walkefar.

"INGALDESTHORP,
After this, Sir Richard Walkefare inherited it; and in 1349, the Lady
Eufemia de Walkefar, presented to this church;
....In the 43 of the said king [Edward III], Sir Thomas Felton, knight
of the garter; possessed it; but in the 8th of Richard II. Sir John
L'Estrange of Hunstanton, and Alianore his wife, who was daughter and
coheir of Sir Richard Walkfar, for 50O. marks, sold their right in
this and Dersingham manor, to the Lady Joan; relict of Sir Thomas
Felton, and sister to Alianore; and in the 12 of that king, the Lady
Joan settled it in trust, on Richard de Burnham, parson of Queen Hithe
in London."

To shorten long urls, go to http://tinyurl.com/


CE



If mentions a wife Eufemia for Richard. The two girls may well have
been half-sisters.

Sorry about the urls that turned out to be longer than permitted. I don't
know what to do for the url to an article in History of Parliament, but I
have discovered that one can remove "&seq=9&view=image&size=100" after the
page number in the url for the Hathi Trust items. So, here's an improved
In Magna Carta Ancestry, on p. 213, Joan, the wife of Thomas de Felton, is
identified as a daughter of Richard Walkfare, Knt., of Great Ryburgh,
Norfolk.
http://books.google.com/books?id=wHZcIRMhSEMC&pg=PA213
There are many references listed for the entire paragraph which includes
this information about Joan's father. Can someone please tell me which
source identifies Joan as a daughter of Richard Walkfare and by what
evidence? Is there evidence about who Joan's mother was?
History of Parliament, in the article about John le Strange, states that
Joan de Felton may have been a half sister of John le Strange's wife
Eleanor, who the article says was the daughter of Richard Walkfare by his
wife Mary, sister of Thomas Morieux, constable of the Tower of London.
www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strange-sir...
347-1417
Joan was the mother by Thomas de Felton of daughters Mary, Sibyl and Eleanor
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=141&id=wu.89095770921
Mary de Felton was age 24 or 25 at the time of the inquisitions, so born by
1357. If so her mother Joan was born by say 1340. I think but have not yet
been able to prove that Richard de Walkfare was the younger brother of John
de Walkfare, son of Robert de Walkfare. John was 19 and more at the time of
his father's IPM, so born about 1315. If Richard was the younger brother of
John and the father of Joan, he would have been fairly young (under 25) at
the time of Joan's birth. For the IPM of Robert de Walkfare, see
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=389&id=wu.89080115777
Some secondary sources, erroneously it seems, say Richard de Walkfare's wife
was named Euphemia. It seems instead that Euphemia was the widow of John de
Walkfare (d. 1345) and earlier of William de la Beche (d. 1333). See the
IPMs, at the weblinks below, of William de la Beche, John de Walkfare, and
Euphemia de la Beche (d. 1361). John's IPM refers to Euphemia and Mary her
sister as daughters and heirs of Edmund de Comyn. While Euphemia appears to
have had sons named John by both husbands and a son named William by
William, her heir at her death was a daughter Elizabeth, age 30 (or 36) and
more, wife of Roger de Elmerugge.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=365&id=wu.89080115777
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=410&id=wu.89080104300
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=31&id=wu.89095770848
The location of some of the land and names of the sisters suggest that
Euphemia's sister may have been the Mary of Pakenham whose IPM appears on p.
151 in the same volume as Euphemia's (except that Euphemia seems to have
died before Mary but Mary's sister Euphemia was her heir and entered and
alienated Mary's land without permission). If so, Euphemia's sister Mary
could not have been the Mary who was the wife of Richard de Walkfare.
The following item from CPR, Henry 4 vol 2, p. 354, dated 1404, Feb. 15,
identifies John le Strange and his wife Eleanor as the tenants of the land
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h4v2/body/Henry4vol2page0354.pdf
The evidence that Eleanor, wife of John le Strange was the daughter of
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=26&id=wu.89095770947
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r2v2/body/Richard2vol2page0261.pdf
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Janet Wolfe]

Thanks, John, that's a very useful trick to know. Maybe Don can add it to
the FAQs.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John H
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:13 AM
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Hi CE and Group:
Dont need to go to tinyurl to make a long url stay together.

just place a " > and a space" at beginning of url and a "a space and a <" at

the end of the url namely
in other words enclose the url as below
namely:
www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strange-sir-john-1
347-1417 <
or
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12 <
Then when they go over multiple lines it will all work if you click on it.
Simple really!
regards
John H

[John H]

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1-1-12#1-1-1-12 <

I am using Windows XP SP3
Newsgroups: news.aioe.org
and Otlook Express 6,
but have used this for years on other lists etc.
including when sending an url to someone on ane email


John H

Thanks, John, that's a very useful trick to know. Maybe Don can add it to
the FAQs.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?
Dont need to go to tinyurl to make a long url stay together.
just place a " > and a space" at beginning of url and a "a space and a <" at
the end of the url namely
in other words enclose the url as below
www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strange-sir-john-1
347-1417 <
or
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12 <
Then when they go over multiple lines it will all work if you click on it.
Simple really!
regards
John H

[Janet Wolfe]

Well, that's interesting, the trick worked for Don but not for me. Maybe I
lost one of the spaces.

Here is a test
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12 <

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janet Wolfe
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:55 AM
To: 'John H'; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Thanks, John, that's a very useful trick to know. Maybe Don can add it to
the FAQs.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John H
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:13 AM
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Hi CE and Group:
Dont need to go to tinyurl to make a long url stay together.

just place a " > and a space" at beginning of url and a "a space and a <" at

the end of the url namely
in other words enclose the url as below
namely:
www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strange-sir-john-1
347-1417 <
or
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12 <
Then when they go over multiple lines it will all work if you click on it.
Simple really!
regards
John H



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Janet Wolfe]

Still didn't work. It looks fine in my sent-mail. Now I'll try two spaces.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12 <

-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe [mailto:***@umich.edu]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:07 AM
To: ***@umich.edu; 'John H'; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Well, that's interesting, the trick worked for Don but not for me. Maybe I
lost one of the spaces.

Here is a test
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12 <

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janet Wolfe
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:55 AM
To: 'John H'; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Thanks, John, that's a very useful trick to know. Maybe Don can add it to
the FAQs.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John H
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:13 AM
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Hi CE and Group:
Dont need to go to tinyurl to make a long url stay together.

just place a " > and a space" at beginning of url and a "a space and a <" at

the end of the url namely
in other words enclose the url as below
namely:
www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strange-sir-john-1
347-1417 <
or
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12 <
Then when they go over multiple lines it will all work if you click on it.
Simple really!
regards
John H



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Wjhonson]

Try doing it through Google Groups instead of through the Rootsweb list





-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe <***@umich.edu>
To: janwolfe <***@umich.edu>; 'John H' <***@gmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 15, 2012 8:13 am
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?


Still didn't work. It looks fine in my sent-mail. Now I'll try two spaces.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12 <

-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe [mailto:***@umich.edu]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:07 AM
To: ***@umich.edu; 'John H'; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Well, that's interesting, the trick worked for Don but not for me. Maybe I
lost one of the spaces.

Here is a test
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12 <

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janet Wolfe
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:55 AM
To: 'John H'; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Thanks, John, that's a very useful trick to know. Maybe Don can add it to
the FAQs.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John H
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:13 AM
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Hi CE and Group:
Dont need to go to tinyurl to make a long url stay together.

just place a " > and a space" at beginning of url and a "a space and a <" at

the end of the url namely
in other words enclose the url as below
namely:
www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strange-sir-john-1
347-1417 <
or
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12 <
Then when they go over multiple lines it will all work if you click on it.
Simple really!
regards
John H



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message







-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message

[Janet Wolfe]

I'm checking to see what happens if I send the message in html instead of
plain text.



http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1
<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-
1-1-12#1-1-1-12> &cid=1-1-1-12#1-1-1-12



<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1
<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-
1-1-12#1-1-1-12> &cid=1-1-1-12#1-1-1-12>



<URL: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1
<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-
1-1-12#1-1-1-12> &cid=1-1-1-12#1-1-1-12>



< http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1
<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-
1-1-12#1-1-1-12> &cid=1-1-1-12#1-1-1-12 >



<URL: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1
<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-
1-1-12#1-1-1-12> &cid=1-1-1-12#1-1-1-12 >



<URL: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1
<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-
1-1-12#1-1-1-12> &cid=1-1-1-12#1-1-1-12>







-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe [mailto:***@umich.edu]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:18 AM
To: ***@umich.edu; 'John H'; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



OK, I give up. Perhaps Microsoft Outlook (interacting with an imap mail

server) is very diligent about removing spaces it considers extraneous.



Maybe I'll try the another trick,



<a

href="http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&c

id=1-1-1-12#1-1-1-12">link</a>



Sorry for all the off-topic babel.





-----Original Message-----

From: Janet Wolfe [mailto:***@umich.edu]

Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:11 AM

To: ***@umich.edu; 'John H'; gen-***@rootsweb.com

Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father

of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



Still didn't work. It looks fine in my sent-mail. Now I'll try two spaces.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1

-1-12#1-1-1-12 <



-----Original Message-----

From: Janet Wolfe [mailto:***@umich.edu]

Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:07 AM

To: ***@umich.edu; 'John H'; gen-***@rootsweb.com

Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father

of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



Well, that's interesting, the trick worked for Don but not for me. Maybe I

lost one of the spaces.



Here is a test
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1

-1-12#1-1-1-12 <



-----Original Message-----

From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janet Wolfe

Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:55 AM

To: 'John H'; gen-***@rootsweb.com

Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father

of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



Thanks, John, that's a very useful trick to know. Maybe Don can add it to

the FAQs.



-----Original Message-----

From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John H

Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:13 AM

To: gen-***@rootsweb.com

Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father

of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



Hi CE and Group:

Dont need to go to tinyurl to make a long url stay together.



just place a " > and a space" at beginning of url and a "a space and a <" at



the end of the url namely

in other words enclose the url as below

namely:
www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strange-sir-john-1

347-1417 <

or
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1

-1-12#1-1-1-12 <

Then when they go over multiple lines it will all work if you click on it.

Simple really!

regards

John H





-------------------------------

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to

GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the

quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Don Stone]

This trick doesn't appear to work for the email program Thunderbird.
The initial '>' is interpreted as the beginning of a quoted segment of
an earlier email.

-- Don Stone

Post by Janet Wolfe
Thanks, John, that's a very useful trick to know. Maybe Don can add it to
the FAQs.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?
Dont need to go to tinyurl to make a long url stay together.
just place a "> and a space" at beginning of url and a "a space and a<" at
the end of the url namely
in other words enclose the url as below
www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strange-sir-john-1
347-1417<
or
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12<
Then when they go over multiple lines it will all work if you click on it.
Simple really!
regards
John H

[Jan]

OK, now I'm using Google Groups per Will's suggestion.

Test long URL:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1-1-12#1-1-1-12

[Janet Wolfe]

OK, I give up. Perhaps Microsoft Outlook (interacting with an imap mail
server) is very diligent about removing spaces it considers extraneous.

Maybe I'll try the another trick,

<a
href="http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&c
id=1-1-1-12#1-1-1-12">link</a>

Sorry for all the off-topic babel.


-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe [mailto:***@umich.edu]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:11 AM
To: ***@umich.edu; 'John H'; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Still didn't work. It looks fine in my sent-mail. Now I'll try two spaces.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12 <

-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe [mailto:***@umich.edu]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:07 AM
To: ***@umich.edu; 'John H'; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Well, that's interesting, the trick worked for Don but not for me. Maybe I
lost one of the spaces.

Here is a test
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12 <

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janet Wolfe
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:55 AM
To: 'John H'; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Thanks, John, that's a very useful trick to know. Maybe Don can add it to
the FAQs.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John H
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:13 AM
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father
of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

Hi CE and Group:
Dont need to go to tinyurl to make a long url stay together.

just place a " > and a space" at beginning of url and a "a space and a <" at

the end of the url namely
in other words enclose the url as below
namely:
www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strange-sir-john-1
347-1417 <
or
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=153-lest_1-1&cid=1-1
-1-12#1-1-1-12 <
Then when they go over multiple lines it will all work if you click on it.
Simple really!
regards
John H



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Wjhonson]

Are you saying that his IPM does not name his heir?
Eleanor was of the age to marry by this date, so she should be listed as married if married
Also the IPM should state that Richard held in chief if he did, which would mean the King would get the marriage
We can't assume those kind of things. What does it actually say





-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe <***@umich.edu>
To: 'Wjhonson' <***@aol.com>; wood_ce <***@msn.com>; gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 16, 2012 7:22 am
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



Yes, that is a good question. Richard’s IPM suggests that his executor held the land for a few years and then John and Joan de Felton and then widow Joan. Eleanor may have gone to live with her future husband’s family well before her father died.



From: Wjhonson [mailto:***@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:26 AM
To: ***@umich.edu; ***@msn.com; gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?



I think it matters who was holding what... when.
Since Richard died while his sole heiress was a minor, who held his lands and her marriage until she came of age or married? That would be important to know





-----Original Message-----
From: Janet Wolfe <***@umich.edu>
To: 'Wjhonson' <***@aol.com>; wood_ce <***@msn.com>; gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:21 pm
Subject: RE: Magna Carta Ancestry: Was Richard Walkfare (d. 1370) the father of Joan, wife of Thomas de Felton (d. 1383)?

I, too, have speculated that Joan may have been a sister rather than a
daughter of Richard de Walkefare, but is there any evidence that Joan's was
a Walkefare?

Oxford DNB states that Joan was the daughter of Richard, but does not
provide a specific citation. I think it must be an error.

[Jan]

 Are you saying that his IPM does not name his heir?
Eleanor was of the age to marry by this date, so she should be listed as married if married
Also the IPM should state that Richard held in chief if he did, which would mean the King would get the marriage
We can't assume those kind of things.  What does it actually say

The IPM for Richard de Walkefare says "He died on 4 February, 44
Edward III. Eleanor his daughter by the said Mary, aged 14 on the day
of his death, is their heir."

A small part of the land mentioned in the IPM (10 a. of wood) was held
of the king in chief by homage and fealty. This was a part of a manor
that Richard held in fee. He was seised jointly with his wife Mary of
the other manor (Great Ryburgh) mentioned in the IPM. The odd thing
about this IPM is that it was taken so long (7 Richard II) after the
death of Richard de Walkefare.

While the IPM does not name Eleanor's husband, it is plausible that
she was married to John le Strange at the time of the IPM as she was
27 years old by then. Recall that a marriage agreement between Richard
and the father of John le Strange had been made in 1361 for the
marriage of John and "one of Walkfare's daughters" according to the
abstract of the agreement on The National Archives website.

Perhaps I should initially have quoted more of Richard's IPM, but the
FAQs for this group request that posters not quote the entire text of
documents when web links are available. I had assumed that interested
readers would use the URL I provided for the IPM to read its
contents.