Douglas Richardson
2014-08-25 20:30:08 UTC
Dear Newsgroup ~
Back in 2005 there was discussion between Brad Verity and others here on the newsgroup regarding Joan Barre, daughter of Thomas Barre, Knt. [died 1420], of Rotherwas (in Dinedor), Herefordshire. Joan Barre is stated to have married (1st) Kinard de la Bere, Knt., and (2nd) William Catesby, Knt.
Back in 2005, however, there seems to have been confusion as to which de la Bere widow actually married William Catesby, Knt. It was noted by Matthew Connolly that Richard de la Bere, the father of Kinard de la Bere, Knt., left a widow, Joan West, who conceivably could also be the Joan who married William Catesby, Knt. In my own research, I had encountered a secondary source which claimed that it was Joan West married (2nd) William Catesby, Knt. So what is the truth?
Recently I located conclusive evidence which proves the identity of Sir William Catesby's wife, Joan. The evidence is found in a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1464 which I have abstracted below:
In 1464 William Catesby, Knt., and his wife, Joan, widow of Kinard de la Bere, Knt., sued Richard Wyche, of Ayley (in Kinnersley), Herefordshire, husbandman, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £20. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/811, image 159f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E4/CP40no811/aCP40no811fronts/IMG_0158.htm).
The above lawsuit clearly states that William Catesby's wife, Joan, was the widow of Kinard de la Bere, Knt. As such, it can be ruled out that William Catesby's wife was Joan Barre's mother-in-law, Joan West, widow of Richard de la Bere.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Cornewall and her husband William Vaughan, and add her onto the list of
Alice Talbot's Descendants.
Margaret Beauchamp's children, as the HOP bio of her father is no help
and I don't have a copy of CP's article on Beauchamp, Lords
Kidderminster. I've added the VCH Worcs volume to my Library list.
newsgroup mailing list yesterday, but for some reason has not made it
onto Google. Anyway, he mentioned that Joan West, the daughter of
Thomas, 1st Lord West, and the wife of Richard Delamare, father of
Kynard Delamare, married secondly Sir William Catesby.
So it seems we have two widowed Joan Delameres in the 15th century -
Joan West, wife of Richard, and her daughter-in-law Joan Barre, wife of
Kynard - either one of whom could have married Catesby.
If there is any source that provides a death date for Catesby's wife
Joan, that may help clear things up. Joan Barre was definitely
deceased before 1474, so if Catesby's wife Joan was known to have been
alive after that date, it must have been Joan West who married him.
manor to Kynard Delamare and Joan Barre.
see below.
without issue by Corbet of Moreton (or their issue failed by 1489, when
the Barre inheritance was divided among the descendants of Alice
Talbot's daughters), she still would have been mentioned in the 1474
founding of the Barre family chantry in Clehonger church. All the
other children of Alice Talbot - including her Delamere ones - had
their souls provided for.
Barre, I will definitely start with Bartrum. Many thanks for the
suggestion!
Cheers, -------Brad
Back in 2005 there was discussion between Brad Verity and others here on the newsgroup regarding Joan Barre, daughter of Thomas Barre, Knt. [died 1420], of Rotherwas (in Dinedor), Herefordshire. Joan Barre is stated to have married (1st) Kinard de la Bere, Knt., and (2nd) William Catesby, Knt.
Back in 2005, however, there seems to have been confusion as to which de la Bere widow actually married William Catesby, Knt. It was noted by Matthew Connolly that Richard de la Bere, the father of Kinard de la Bere, Knt., left a widow, Joan West, who conceivably could also be the Joan who married William Catesby, Knt. In my own research, I had encountered a secondary source which claimed that it was Joan West married (2nd) William Catesby, Knt. So what is the truth?
Recently I located conclusive evidence which proves the identity of Sir William Catesby's wife, Joan. The evidence is found in a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1464 which I have abstracted below:
In 1464 William Catesby, Knt., and his wife, Joan, widow of Kinard de la Bere, Knt., sued Richard Wyche, of Ayley (in Kinnersley), Herefordshire, husbandman, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £20. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/811, image 159f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E4/CP40no811/aCP40no811fronts/IMG_0158.htm).
The above lawsuit clearly states that William Catesby's wife, Joan, was the widow of Kinard de la Bere, Knt. As such, it can be ruled out that William Catesby's wife was Joan Barre's mother-in-law, Joan West, widow of Richard de la Bere.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Thanks from me too Brad for a fascinating post. A few thoughts that
Thank you, Matthew. I've interspersed comments below.A putative daughter for Thomas and Lucy would be the 'Ann, daughter of
Sir Thomas Cornwall of Burford' given as wife to William Vaughan of
Rhydhelyg and Clifford (fl.1475). Vaughan was a Yorkist, but that
doesn't necessarily rule it out.
This is a great addition - I'll see what I can dig up on this AnneSir Thomas Cornwall of Burford' given as wife to William Vaughan of
Rhydhelyg and Clifford (fl.1475). Vaughan was a Yorkist, but that
doesn't necessarily rule it out.
Cornewall and her husband William Vaughan, and add her onto the list of
Alice Talbot's Descendants.
I think the VCH Worcs, sub Holt, backs this up- Joyce isn't given as an
heiress of Margaret Beauchamp, although the latter's coheiresses by
Scull did apparently marry other members of the Croft family.
Oh! VCH has covered Holt Castle - excellent. I'm very confused withheiress of Margaret Beauchamp, although the latter's coheiresses by
Scull did apparently marry other members of the Croft family.
Margaret Beauchamp's children, as the HOP bio of her father is no help
and I don't have a copy of CP's article on Beauchamp, Lords
Kidderminster. I've added the VCH Worcs volume to my Library list.
Confusingly, I have a note that this Joan was married in 1453, as his
second wife, to Sir William Catesby (d.1478). I think it must have come
either from an HoP volume or from the new DNB. Maybe it's in error but
it might be worth a check.
I remember reading a post from John Higgins that came through thesecond wife, to Sir William Catesby (d.1478). I think it must have come
either from an HoP volume or from the new DNB. Maybe it's in error but
it might be worth a check.
newsgroup mailing list yesterday, but for some reason has not made it
onto Google. Anyway, he mentioned that Joan West, the daughter of
Thomas, 1st Lord West, and the wife of Richard Delamare, father of
Kynard Delamare, married secondly Sir William Catesby.
So it seems we have two widowed Joan Delameres in the 15th century -
Joan West, wife of Richard, and her daughter-in-law Joan Barre, wife of
Kynard - either one of whom could have married Catesby.
If there is any source that provides a death date for Catesby's wife
Joan, that may help clear things up. Joan Barre was definitely
deceased before 1474, so if Catesby's wife Joan was known to have been
alive after that date, it must have been Joan West who married him.
Incidentally, there is also a place called
Dormington in Herefordshire, in case that's another possibility for
'Dorsington'.
Thank you. It's interesting that Richard, duke of York, granted thisDormington in Herefordshire, in case that's another possibility for
'Dorsington'.
manor to Kynard Delamare and Joan Barre.
You probably know already, but there is an unreliable Barre pedigree in
the 1400-1500 series of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies (under 'Barry 3').
I didn't know about this pedigree, but I can confirm its unreliable -the 1400-1500 series of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies (under 'Barry 3').
see below.
(It also gives Thomas and Alice a daughter Letus, who married 'Thomas
(Robert?) Corbet of Moreton'.)
No - that is definitely an error. Even if Letus (Lettice?) had died(Robert?) Corbet of Moreton'.)
without issue by Corbet of Moreton (or their issue failed by 1489, when
the Barre inheritance was divided among the descendants of Alice
Talbot's daughters), she still would have been mentioned in the 1474
founding of the Barre family chantry in Clehonger church. All the
other children of Alice Talbot - including her Delamere ones - had
their souls provided for.
Anyway, it might be worth looking at the
Hanmer pedigrees in the same volumes (or not).
As I'm at a complete loss in placing John Hanmer, husband of AnkaretHanmer pedigrees in the same volumes (or not).
Barre, I will definitely start with Bartrum. Many thanks for the
suggestion!
Cheers, -------Brad