gateway knox again.

[RAY Montgomery]

To whom it may concern.
Here is some of the documentation on the knox family as I presented it.
I purposely did not include documentation before as I wanted it torn apart and a line with out documentation would have been even more so. So I thank those that did so.
I still feel it is valid, but perhaps needs to be tweaked. There are actually several lines to kings with this line that should be explored. I will include one to make this relevant.
I am to be honest concerned because of the tightest of the time line. Perhaps I am barking up the wrong tree, how ever this is where the evidence takes me. Also in the review of the documentation I have noticed that I actually missed a generation. Please notice the addition of a generaton at item no. 7
Sincerely,
Ray
Genealogical memoirs of John Knox and of the family of Knox By Charles Rogers PAGE 17 states thus

"on the death of Uchtred Knox of Ranfurlie with out male heir, the representation
of the family devolved on the the family of knox of silvieland. of this branch the ancestor
was William second son of Uchtred knox of Ranfurlie by his wife Janet semphil". William
Knox who acquired the land of Silvieland married secondy, Margaret daughter of Patrick
Fleming of Barrachan (Barrochan).

It is as follows.
1. William Polk Born Colerain, Londonderry,
Ireland Circa 1664 Married abt 1693 Nancy Knox also of Colerain,
Londonderry, Ireland
2. Nancy Knox born about 1675 was the
Daughter of John Knox born circa 1635 of Colerain, Londonderry, Ireland
married to Sarah Locke, born about 1635 of Antrim, Ireland.
3. John Knox born about 1615 of Colerain, Londonderry, ireland died 1658 married to Jean Gracie, born abt 1615 Antrim, Ireland
4.
Thomas Knox Esquire Born about 1585of Silvieland, Renfrewshire,
Scotland See Note for Thomas Know Esquire When died and the names of
his wife is not known yet at this time. Perhaps the voucher below holds
this data.
5. Thomas Knox born circa 1566 Silvieland, Renfrewshire, Scotland died 15 nov 1592. Married to Barbara Semple.
6. William Knox second of Silvieland, Born about 1546 married Margaret Maxwell, Daughter of George Maxwell of Newark, By his Wife Marion Daughter of William Cunningham of Craigends And widow of Uchtred Knox of Ranfurie
7. John Knox born about 1528 Silvieland, Renfrewshire, Scotland died Aug 1574 Whom he married is not known at this time.
8.
William Knox born abt 1510 Silvieland, Renfrewshire, Scotland Married
to Margaret Fleming of Barrochan, Renfrewshire, Scotland died 1618 Daughter of Patrick Fleming of Barrochan. By her he had two sons his successor John, and Marcus. Does any one have any information on this Patrick if he did not marry Miss Mure.
9. Uchtred Knox born about 1468 Ranfurlie Died 9 aug 1553 married to Janet Sempil of Eliotstown born about 1480.
10. Sir John Sempill born about 1464 died 9 sep 1513 Married to Margaret Colville born abt 1464 of Ochiltree
11. Sir Thomas Sempill born 1421 of Eliotstown died 11 jun 1488 battle of Sauchie Married Elizabeth McDonald of Ross born about 1455.
12. Lord John McDonald of Ross born abt 1421 died bef 1501 married Marjory Mure of Caldwell, born abt 1440
13. John Mure of Caldwell born about 1410 died before 1492 married to Elizabeth Lindsay, born about 1420
14. Earl of Lindsay John Lindsay born abt 1400 died 27 jan 1446 married Marjory Ogilvy born about 1400
15. Sir Alexander Lindsay Lord of Crawford born about 1383 died aft mar 31 1438 married
Mariota Dunbar born abt 1385
16. Earl of Crawford David Lindsay born 1359 died 12 aug 1407 married Catherine Stewart Princess of Scotland born abt 1362.
17. King of Scotland Robert Steward born 2 mar 1316 died 19 apr 1390 married to Euphemia Ross, Queen of Scotand
References

Geneological Memiors of John Knox and the Knox familie page 16, 17, 18
Family extract of donegal knox family to knox of Ranfurlie, Geneogical Office Dublin
"The
Knox family; a genealogical and biographical sketch of the descendants
of John Knox of Rowan County, North Carolina, and other Knoxes" page 21



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[m***@mac.com]

Several things:

You are relying solely upon secondary sources, and in the scholarly
vein of genealogy, this is discouraged. You should note that some
materials on the Polk family was published in the NEHGR 77 starting at
page 133. The ancestry of James Knox Polk is also published in
Ancestors of the American Presidents, which in part cites to the The
Knox family which is a 1905 work.

Problems start (again) right off. Nancy Knox is called Nancy Knox
Owens, a widow when she marries William Polk. So, she can't be born
in 1675 and be married twice by the age of 18 in 1693. Her sister, by
the way, married his brother. So, locating the probate of John Knox
and Sarah Locke, her parents, is imperative. Otherwise, continuing
back, while perhaps true, is futile for the U.S. Knoxes.

Another red flag is the John Knox b.ca. 1615 and wife Jean Gracie. In
the ancestry of James Knox Polk, through his maternal Knox ancestors
one finds a John Knox b. c. 1708, d. Rowan Co. NC 12 Oct 1758 and his
wife Jean Gracy. A very startling coincidence that one would have two
different set of ancestors by the same name who lived 100 years
apart. This is why if you are using a secondary source, I would argue
that someone's recollections have been muddled.

I would try, using primary sources to link John Knox to Nancy (Knox)
Polk first. Then worry about the rest.

[RAY Montgomery]

To whom it may concern,
Perhaps it is news to you that the records in Ireland were burned in 1922. So ALL one really has to work with is secondary sources.
There are very and I mean very very few probates left in ireland and those are the ones that were in personal possession at the time of the fire and were brought back to the Irish archives.

I am not interested in printing or publishing this line, it is for the use of the list only.
I have looked for knox probates and there are very very few.
We know the knox's were from Colerain as the Polk or Pollock family was from there.
I will check more throughly on the Gracie matter, but what i have is from reputable sources.
I have shown with sources for the connection to the Knox's of Donegal, and londonderry, I.E. the Colerain family from the geneological office pedigree, to the silvieland and Ranfurlie Family.
I will continue to work on this line, how ever at this time I consider it valid.
Sincerely,
Ray

Subject: Re: gateway knox again.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 09:16:28 -0700
You are relying solely upon secondary sources, and in the scholarly
vein of genealogy, this is discouraged. You should note that some
materials on the Polk family was published in the NEHGR 77 starting at
page 133. The ancestry of James Knox Polk is also published in
Ancestors of the American Presidents, which in part cites to the The
Knox family which is a 1905 work.
Problems start (again) right off. Nancy Knox is called Nancy Knox
Owens, a widow when she marries William Polk. So, she can't be born
in 1675 and be married twice by the age of 18 in 1693. Her sister, by
the way, married his brother. So, locating the probate of John Knox
and Sarah Locke, her parents, is imperative. Otherwise, continuing
back, while perhaps true, is futile for the U.S. Knoxes.
Another red flag is the John Knox b.ca. 1615 and wife Jean Gracie. In
the ancestry of James Knox Polk, through his maternal Knox ancestors
one finds a John Knox b. c. 1708, d. Rowan Co. NC 12 Oct 1758 and his
wife Jean Gracy. A very startling coincidence that one would have two
different set of ancestors by the same name who lived 100 years
apart. This is why if you are using a secondary source, I would argue
that someone's recollections have been muddled.
I would try, using primary sources to link John Knox to Nancy (Knox)
Polk first. Then worry about the rest.
-------------------------------

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[wjhonson]

Post by RAY Montgomery
To whom it may concern,
Perhaps it is news to you that the records in Ireland were burned in 1922. So ALL one really has to work with is secondary sources.
There are very and I mean very very few probates left in ireland and those are the ones that were in personal possession at the time of the fire and were brought back to the Irish archives.

What happened in Ireland in 1922 has nothing whatever to do with
finding any evidence whatsoever to connect your line from President
Polk back *to* Ireland. That's a red herring.

First you need to present your evidence from President Knox back to
his immigrant ancestors, resolving the outstanding issues before you
can even attempt to cross the ocean.

Post by RAY Montgomery
I am not interested in printing or publishing this line, it is for the use of the list only.

That's good because no reputable publication would touch it.

Post by RAY Montgomery
I have looked for knox probates and there are very very few.
We know the knox's were from Colerain as the Polk or Pollock family was from there.

Where one family is from, has nothing to do with where another one is
from. Do you assume that all marriages are of families who lived in
the same place ?

Post by RAY Montgomery
I will check more throughly on the Gracie matter, but what i have is from reputable sources.

Apparently your "reputable sources" whatever they are, are incorrect.
Perhaps you could actually present them instead of merely talking
about them.

Post by RAY Montgomery
I have shown with sources for the connection to the Knox's of Donegal, and londonderry, I.E. the Colerain family from the geneological office pedigree, to the silvieland and Ranfurlie Family.

Actually you haven't.

Post by RAY Montgomery
I will continue to work on this line, how ever at this time I consider it valid.
Sincerely,
Ray

Of course you do. It's your hobby horse and you will damn well ride
it and scuttle the rest, won't you. Don't worry about actual evidence
when you can link together mythical pedigrees to gain a royal ascent.

Will Johnson

[RAY Montgomery]

William
Excuse me!
Where a persons family is paramount as a person just does not pop up some where.
There are just a few knox families in Ireland. They remained in pockets.
I have just provided this to provide materials for others as I am not a professional as you are. I am working on many lines as you are. I have used Irish sources.

Since You are a professional I challenge you to provide a better solution.
I look forward to your material.
Sincerely
Ray

Subject: Re: gateway knox again.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:53:55 -0700

Post by RAY Montgomery
To whom it may concern,
Perhaps it is news to you that the records in Ireland were burned in 1922. So ALL one really has to work with is secondary sources.
There are very and I mean very very few probates left in ireland and those are the ones that were in personal possession at the time of the fire and were brought back to the Irish archives.

What happened in Ireland in 1922 has nothing whatever to do with
finding any evidence whatsoever to connect your line from President
Polk back *to* Ireland. That's a red herring.
First you need to present your evidence from President Knox back to
his immigrant ancestors, resolving the outstanding issues before you
can even attempt to cross the ocean.

Post by RAY Montgomery
I am not interested in printing or publishing this line, it is for the use of the list only.

That's good because no reputable publication would touch it.

Post by RAY Montgomery
I have looked for knox probates and there are very very few.
We know the knox's were from Colerain as the Polk or Pollock family was from there.

Where one family is from, has nothing to do with where another one is
from. Do you assume that all marriages are of families who lived in
the same place ?

Post by RAY Montgomery
I will check more throughly on the Gracie matter, but what i have is from reputable sources.

Apparently your "reputable sources" whatever they are, are incorrect.
Perhaps you could actually present them instead of merely talking
about them.

Post by RAY Montgomery
I have shown with sources for the connection to the Knox's of Donegal, and londonderry, I.E. the Colerain family from the geneological office pedigree, to the silvieland and Ranfurlie Family.

Actually you haven't.

Post by RAY Montgomery
I will continue to work on this line, how ever at this time I consider it valid.
Sincerely,
Ray

Of course you do. It's your hobby horse and you will damn well ride
it and scuttle the rest, won't you. Don't worry about actual evidence
when you can link together mythical pedigrees to gain a royal ascent.
Will Johnson
-------------------------------

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[wjhonson]

Post by RAY Montgomery
Where a persons family is paramount as a person just does not pop up some where.

I can't even guess what that sentence means.

Post by RAY Montgomery
There are just a few knox families in Ireland. They remained in pockets.

As we say in Wikiland {{fact}} meaning, you seem to think the majority
or all records were destroyed so how could you know where the Knox
families lived? Or are you now saying that all the records before
1700 were actually preserved, so you can determine this? I'm very
confused on this, I hope you can straighten it out for me.

Post by RAY Montgomery
I have just provided this to provide materials for others as I am not a professional as you are. I am working on many lines as you are. I have used Irish sources.

You have used a few sources. And you have apparently failed to
understand what they are stating. Provide us with the sources which
show *evidence* for where the U.S. Knox families behind the President
originated. What is the evidence. A modern book is no evidence, it
must be based on something more primitive. If it's based on nothing
except a wild guess, then it's not acceptable as a source in it's own
right either.

Post by RAY Montgomery
Since You are a professional I challenge you to provide a better solution.
I look forward to your material.
Sincerely
Ray

There is no need to provide a solution for every problem. Some
problems have no solution which we can today provide. We simply have
to await some intrepid explorer who will actually go through the
primary material again and find something new. (Hint hint).

That Ireland is the only place to look for the early Knox family is a
fallacy. Since you want to connect a particular family to the US
President, first you have to show that such a connection has any
evidence to back it up.

Will Johnson

[w]

Post by wjhonson

Post by RAY Montgomery
There are just a few knox families in Ireland. They remained in pockets.

As we say in Wikiland {{fact}} meaning, you seem to think the majority
or all records were destroyed so how could you know where the Knox
families lived?  Or are you now saying that all the records before
1700 were actually preserved, so you can determine this?  I'm very
confused on this, I hope you can straighten it out for me.

Post by RAY Montgomery
I have just provided this to provide materials for others as I am not a professional as you are. I am working on many lines as you are. I have used Irish sources.

You have used a few sources.  And you have apparently failed to
understand what they are stating.  Provide us with the sources which
show *evidence* for where the U.S. Knox families behind the President
originated.  What is the evidence.  A modern book is no evidence, it
must be based on something more primitive.  If it's based on nothing
except a wild guess, then it's not acceptable as a source in it's own
right either.

Post by RAY Montgomery
Since You are a professional I challenge you to provide a better solution.
I look forward to your material.
Sincerely
Ray

There is no need to provide a solution for every problem.  Some
problems have no solution which we can today provide.  We simply have
to await some intrepid explorer who will actually go through the
primary material again and find something new. (Hint hint).
That Ireland is the only place to look for the early Knox family is a
fallacy.  Since you want to connect a particular family to the US
President, first you have to show that such a connection has any
evidence to back it up.
Will Johnson

Boy, Wile E Coyote, you are being a tad harsh, are you not?
You are praised as a professional by someone interested in the Knox
family and you are so nasty on a very professional list. When are you
going to relax. Until you clean up your own act, with your own web
pages
filled with errors, you ought to show some tact. I could point out
errors
in your own web pages, as could others.

meep, meep