Post by TJ BoothJohn,
Thanks for keeping this thread alive - not my line, but solving the puzzle
is interesting. See below.
As noted below, a preponderance of the evidence supports your suggestion
that Ursula was niece not sister of Sir Hugh - as was her sister Anne and
perhaps her other sister also.
If Eliz Brereton 'widow of Richard Cholmley' m.(2) Randal Mainwaring of Over
Peover and had several children by him, the ages of Mainwarrings's children
by her indicate they were b. bef 1539. So while I agree with you there were
4 Richard Cholmleys, I'd reverse the last 2 wives. Evidence supporting this
is found in a 2 Aug 1523 will for Sir Randall Brereton in which he bequeaths
Malpas and his other estates to himself and wife Eleanor, then to his sons,
then to his brother Bartholomew, and lastly to what are surely 3 of his
daughters' families, including "Richard son and heir of Richard
Cholmondley". [1] This indicates that Richard d. 1539 was an underage heir
of his mother Elizabeth Brereton in 1523, his father then d. The 1518 ipm
makes him then age 7 (b. 1511), consistent with a 1521 grant of his estate
and marriage to Molyneux, Hassal and Williamson - one suspects his wife
Elizabeth NN was from one of these 3 families.[2]
Notwithstanding the pedigrees, [3] I agree with you that Orderod's 1539 ipm
transcription should be relied on. That is, it was Richard Esq.'s brother
(not son) Hugh who was his heir in 1539. This could only happen if Richard
d. 1539 had no issue - or only had surviving daughters.
A 1557 marriage record has been found for Ursula's sister, Anne, who m.
Randall Brereton of Cuddington as shown in the pedigrees.[4] She - like
Ursula - was unlikely to be b. bef 1518, and the marriage date strengthens
the case that both her and Ursula's father d. 1539.
Three Cholmley sons were b. bef 1518 - Richard b. 1511, Sir Hugh b. 1513 per
his MI, and Randal recorder of London. His name Randal suggests a Brereton
indicating he was b. 1517, so he would be a younger son of Richard d. 1518,
not of Richard d. 1539 who was clearly underage in 1523.
Lodge's Peerage of Ireland Vol 5 has several pages on the Cholmley family. A
bio of Hugh
d. 6 Jan 1596 [/1597] at age 83 (thus b. abt 1513). The 'age 83' comes from
an MI in Malpas Church.[5] The bio incorrectly states "he was age 25 at his
father's death", which would mean his father d. abt 1538/39. That he was 25
in 1538/39 is valid based on his MI, but he could not be son of Richard d.
1539 who was underage in 1518.
Lodge states that Richard Cholmondley Esq. d. 30 Hen VIII [1538/39] age 43,
but if age 7 in the 1518 ipm he could only be age 28. Nor is any source for
'age 43' noted by Lodge. Lodge does cite the Cholmondeley Chapel MI for
Richard Cholmley and his wife Elizabeth (no last name) dated 1540, but the
MI has no ages. Lodge's description of their children and descendants is
[Richard Chomley's] first wife was Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Roger Corbet
of Morton-Corbet in Shropshire, by whom he had an only daughter Maud,
married to Sir Peter Newton of Beverly by whom she had John, Charles, and
Arthurs By his second wife Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Randal Brereton of
Malpas, chamberlain of Chester, who remarried with Sir Randal Manwaring of
Over-Pever, he had several children, whereof . . . the sons were, Hugh his
[eventual] heir ; and Randal (or Ranulph) Cholmondeley, who being educated
in the study of the laws at Lincoln's-Inn, was elected 5 Edw. VI, autumn
reader of that society, but did not read because of the pestilence ; the
next year he was lent-reader, and in 1553 (1 and 2 Phil, and Mary) being one
of the judges of the sheriffs court of London, was made recorder of that
city." To this list must be added eldest son Richard d. 1539, who the
pedigrees incorrectly show d.s.p. but only because his daughters were
misplaced.
Based on the chronology problems you noted and other items noted above, at
least 2 of the 3 daughters the pedigrees and Lodge assigned to Richard d.
1518 now seem best assigned to Richard d. 1539. Their description of all 3
are "Catharine was married to Richard Prestland of Prestland and Wardhill in
Cheshire, Esq.; Agnes [Ann] to Randal Manwaring of Carington, Esq. by whom
she had Henry of Kilingham, living in 1566, ancestor by Eleanor, daughter of
George Venables, Esq. to the family of that place ; and Ursula, to Thomas
Stanley of Wever, Esq. living 1580,'great-grandson of John Stanley, brother
to Thomas, the first Earl of Derby, by Elizabeth, daughter 3nd heir to
Thomas Wever of Wever, Esq. and by him had Thomas, who died without issue ;
Ralph, who left posterity by Margaret, daughter of John Masterson of
Nantwich ; Elizabeth, married to Roger Downes of Shrigley ; Frances, to
Henry Delves of Dodington ; and Dorothy."
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Footnotes
---------
[1] House of Commons Papers; Vol 45; page 29 [sub Welsh Papers for Brereton]
@http://books.google.com/books?id=oEgTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA29. The list of heirs
in the will matches to the sons and sons-in-law of Sir Randall Brereton of
Malpas m. Eleanor Dutton on page 43/44 of Glover's visitation of Cheshire.
[2] On page 69, same source, "1 Jul 1521. Grant to Edward Molyneux clerk,
Richard Hassal gentleman, and Richard Williamson clerk of the custody of the
manors &c. which were of Richard Cholmondley, during the minority of Richard
his son and heir, together with the marriage of the said son."
[3] There are two very similar pedigrees by Glover, the 1580 visitation for
Cheshire previously noted with Sir Hugh Cgolmley as likely respondent (see
visitation for Staffordshire with Edward Cholmley of Copenhall the
likely the 1583 visitation borrowed the Cholmley line from the 1580
visitation. It is also quite possible that whoever recorded the Chomley
line - since it didn't affect the rights to the family arms - misplaced the
daus of Sir Hugh's brother Richard.
[4] UK National Archives; DCH/C/918; 12 Feb 1556/7. MARRIAGE SETTLEMENT
between Randle Brereton of Cudynton, gentleman, and Sir Hugh Cholmeley Kt.,
Thomas Wilbraham of Woodhay esq, Reginald Corbet esq. and Thomas Bulkeley,
gentleman --- the said Randle Brereton's messuages, lands etc: in WYLLEY are
settled to the use of himself for life, remainder to Anne his wife for life,
remainder to his right heirs. Seal: green, a garb. Parchment.
[5] The MI is independently described in Richard Pocock's 'Travels through
Cholmondley Senior . . mortem obiit anno aetatis 83 anna domini 1596 . . "
An MI dated 1540 for his father (founder of the Cholmondeley chapel), is
also there and was noted by Pocock "Orate pro bono statu [Richardi
Cholmondeley et Elizabeth Uxoris ejus], Sacelli factores. Anno domini
millesimo quingentisimo quarto decimo." No last name for his wife is shown.
indeed an interesting puzzle.
says that the last Richard Cholmondeley (d. 1539) had two wives
1st marriage, Maud, married Sir Peter Newton. The 1st edition of
when the 4th Richard was not yet born or just an infant. Helsby
Cholmondeley (who d. vp), probably as his 1st marriage. This makes
much better sense chronologically. (For the sake of clarity and
wife of the 3rd Richard rather than the 4th one. This however leaves
is moved to the 2nd Richard). This doesn't mean that he couldn't have
had a wife and children unknown to us, but it is a definite gap.
Richard. Helsby describes a land transaction of 5 Henry VIII
mention of Ursula). Katherine is presumably the daughter who married
Richard Prestland. I don't see a pedigree reference to an Anne who
married Randle Mainwaring of Carington [or Carrincham). It's not