Discussion:
Orkneyinga Saga
(too old to reply)
Stewart Baldwin
2003-07-29 18:40:47 UTC
Permalink
How reliable is the "Orkneyinga Saga" for the period of 1000-1100?
Apparently it was recorded c. 1200. I am trying to document a third son for
Thorfinn, Earl of Caithness, named Dolfin. "Complete Peerage", II:473 names
sons Paul and Erland. Apparently, Dolfin died before his father. Thanks for
your help.
"Orkneyinga Saga" would be of mixed reliability for the eleventh
century. One notable place in the early eleventh century where the
account is confirmed by contemporary evidence is the death of jarl
Sigurd at the Battle of Clontarf in 1014, as the Irish annals not only
give his death in that battle, but give a patronymic which agrees with
the Norse accounts. (To my knowledge, this is the earliest item in
the "Orkneyinga Saga" which is unambiguously verified by contemporary
sources.) On the other hand, to give an example of a significant
error, "Orkneyinga Saga" confuses the chronology of two eleventh
century Scottish kings, Macbeth and his father Findlaech, switching
their order.

Stewart Baldwin
Pierre Aronax
2003-07-29 19:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stewart Baldwin
How reliable is the "Orkneyinga Saga" for the period of 1000-1100?
Apparently it was recorded c. 1200. I am trying to document a third son for
Thorfinn, Earl of Caithness, named Dolfin. "Complete Peerage", II:473 names
sons Paul and Erland. Apparently, Dolfin died before his father. Thanks for
your help.
"Orkneyinga Saga" would be of mixed reliability for the eleventh
century. One notable place in the early eleventh century where the
account is confirmed by contemporary evidence is the death of jarl
Sigurd at the Battle of Clontarf in 1014, as the Irish annals not only
give his death in that battle, but give a patronymic which agrees with
the Norse accounts. (To my knowledge, this is the earliest item in
the "Orkneyinga Saga" which is unambiguously verified by contemporary
sources.) On the other hand, to give an example of a significant
error, "Orkneyinga Saga" confuses the chronology of two eleventh
century Scottish kings, Macbeth and his father Findlaech, switching
their order.
Would it not be expectable from the saga to be less accurate about Scottish
genealogies than about about the genealogy of the Jarls themselves? Do you
thin it is reliable on this or not?

Pierre
Stewart Baldwin
2003-08-01 20:21:08 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:05:21 +0200, "Pierre Aronax"
Post by Pierre Aronax
Would it not be expectable from the saga to be less accurate about
Scottish genealogies than about about the genealogy of the Jarls
themselves? Do you thin it is reliable on this or not?
If it were statements specifically about the Scottish kings, then I
would agree with this. However, the statements I was talking about
referred to supposed events involving jarls of Orkney and these
Scottish rulers. One test of reliability is how reliable the events
themselves are (and not just the list of jarls).

That being said, a closer look indicates that my comment was more
relevant to the unreliability of the tenth century than the ninth.
Jarl Sigurd (who died at Clontarf in 1014) is said to have had a
confrontation with "jarl" Finnleik of Scotland, i.e., Finnlaech mac
Ruaidrí, who is called "ri Alban" (king of Scotland) in his 1020
obituary in the Annals of Ulster (although he does not appear on the
Scottish king lists). On the other hand, Sigurd's uncle Ljot is
earlier said to be a contemporary of "jarl" Macbeth of Scotland, which
would be a clear anachronism if this Macbeth is to be identified with
Finnlaech's son, who is the only Macbeth known to Scottish history.

It is likely that the Sigurd-Finnlaech story is historical, but the
Ljot-Macbeth seems more likely to be an nonhistorical anachronism.
(One would have to explain it away as an otherwise unknown Macbeth,
but that looks like special pleading to me.) However, as I mentioned
above, that would be a problem with the reliability of tenth century
events rather than the eleventh.

Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
2003-08-01 20:20:04 UTC
Permalink
How reliable is the "Orkneyinga Saga" for the period of 1000-1100?
Apparently it was recorded c. 1200. I am trying to document a third son for
Thorfinn, Earl of Caithness, named Dolfin. "Complete Peerage", II:473 names
sons Paul and Erland. Apparently, Dolfin died before his father. Thanks for
your help.
See other responses in this thread for some general comments. As for
the specific matter of an alleged son named Dolfin, the "Orkneyinga
Saga" mentions no such son. That does not mean that no such son
existed, but the question then becomes: What evidence is there for
such a son in the first place?

Stewart Baldwin
Hal Bradley
2003-08-22 15:50:08 UTC
Permalink
The evidence for the existence of a son Dolfin is found in several secondary
sources, among which are these three:

Ellis, Alfred S., "Biographical Notes on the Yorkshire Tenants Named in
Domesday Book," The Yorkshire Archaeological Journal 4:385 states,
"Gospatric [son of Arkill] took to wife a daughter of Dolfin, son of
Thorfin, and had a son, Gospatric, who "of late ought to have fought with"
(his cousin) Waltheof, son of Eilsi of Tees, perhaps about some of those
lands of the see of Durham, which bishop Aldun had given his daughter, from
whom both were descended." He does cite Ordericus IV.iv and IV.v in this
general section, but I do not have access to this and do not know if there
is relevant info relating to Dolfin.

Turner, Joseph Horsfall, "Ancient Bingley or Bingley, Its History and
Scenery"(Bingley: Thomas Harrison, 1897.), p. 62 states, "Gospatric fitz
Arkill married a daughter of Dolfin son of Thorfin..."

Speight, Harry, "Chronicles and Stories of Old Bingley"(London: Elliot
Stock, 1898., p. 73 states, "Archil, the father of Gospatric, who lived in
the reign of Edward the Confessor, also rebelled against the Conqueror, and
was likewise dispossessed. Gospatric took to wife a daughter of Dolphin,
son of Thorfin, and ones of his sons was named after him. Gospatric, the
elder, was the only Englishman in Yorkshire permitted to keep any of his
estates after the survey of England completed by the Conqueror in 1086.
Gospatric forfeited the manor of Bingley, but retained many others,
including the manor of Holden-in-Craven, which he continued to hold as the
king's thane. He must not be confounded with Gospatric, ancestor of the
Earls of Dunbar..."

On page 74 of Speight's book is a pedigree chart showing the relationship
between Gospatric, Earl of Dunbar and Gospatric, son of Arkil. In addition
to Gospatric, Arkil is the father of another Arkil who was the father of
Alwyn, ancestor to the Earls of Lennox as noted in "Complete Peerage" VII,
p. 586. This chart fills in the early part of the pedigree suggested in CP.

The elder Arkil, son of Uchtred, Earl of Northumbria, is not to be confused
with a contemporary Arkil of Ripley, who Ellis identifies as the son of Ulf
(Ellis, 4:390).

Gospatric Fitz Arkil had another son named Dolfin, which name does not
appear in the family of Gospatric before his supposed marriage with the
daughter of Dolfin, son of Thorfin. Gospatric also had a son named Thorfin,
presumably named for Thorfin, the son of Sigurd, who later became the Earl
of Caithness (cf. CP II: 473).

Dolfin, son of Thorfin, held the manor of Appletreewick. Dolfin, son of
Gospatric later held three manors: Appletreewick, Hartlington, and
Rilleston. "Ilbert de Laci acquired Dolfin's manor in Bradley" (Ellis,
4:392). This Dolfin also became the ancestor of the family of 'de Hebden',
benefactors to Fountains Abbey, as well as the Brodelegh/Bradley family of
Bingley & Halifax.

I can provide more info if there is any interest in this early family.

Thanks for any help anyone can provide by pointing me in the right direction
to further verify this line.

Hal Bradley
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Orkneyinga Saga
How reliable is the "Orkneyinga Saga" for the period of 1000-1100?
Apparently it was recorded c. 1200. I am trying to document a
third son for
Thorfinn, Earl of Caithness, named Dolfin. "Complete Peerage",
II:473 names
sons Paul and Erland. Apparently, Dolfin died before his father.
Thanks for
your help.
See other responses in this thread for some general comments. As for
the specific matter of an alleged son named Dolfin, the "Orkneyinga
Saga" mentions no such son. That does not mean that no such son
existed, but the question then becomes: What evidence is there for
such a son in the first place?
Stewart Baldwin
Todd A. Farmerie
2003-08-23 02:51:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hal Bradley
The evidence for the existence of a son Dolfin is found in several secondary
Ellis, Alfred S., "Biographical Notes on the Yorkshire Tenants Named in
Domesday Book," The Yorkshire Archaeological Journal 4:385 states,
"Gospatric [son of Arkill] took to wife a daughter of Dolfin, son of
Thorfin, and had a son, Gospatric, who "of late ought to have fought with"
Turner, Joseph Horsfall, "Ancient Bingley or Bingley, Its History and
Scenery"(Bingley: Thomas Harrison, 1897.), p. 62 states, "Gospatric fitz
Arkill married a daughter of Dolfin son of Thorfin..."
Speight, Harry, "Chronicles and Stories of Old Bingley"(London: Elliot
Stock, 1898., p. 73 states, "Archil, the father of Gospatric, who lived in
the reign of Edward the Confessor, also rebelled against the Conqueror, and
was likewise dispossessed. Gospatric took to wife a daughter of Dolphin,
son of Thorfin, and ones of his sons was named after him.
Gospatric Fitz Arkil had another son named Dolfin, which name does not
appear in the family of Gospatric before his supposed marriage with the
daughter of Dolfin, son of Thorfin. Gospatric also had a son named Thorfin,
presumably named for Thorfin, the son of Sigurd, who later became the Earl
of Caithness (cf. CP II: 473).
We have evidence here of Dolphin, son of a Thorfinn, but was the
name so rare that it is safe to conclude that he was son of THE
Thorfinn?

taf
Malinda Jones
2003-08-23 03:58:34 UTC
Permalink
By THE Thorfinn, are you referring to Thorfinn Skullsplitter ?

~malinda
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
The evidence for the existence of a son Dolfin is found in several secondary
Ellis, Alfred S., "Biographical Notes on the Yorkshire Tenants Named in
Domesday Book," The Yorkshire Archaeological Journal 4:385 states,
"Gospatric [son of Arkill] took to wife a daughter of Dolfin, son of
Thorfin, and had a son, Gospatric, who "of late ought to have fought with"
Turner, Joseph Horsfall, "Ancient Bingley or Bingley, Its History and
Scenery"(Bingley: Thomas Harrison, 1897.), p. 62 states, "Gospatric fitz
Arkill married a daughter of Dolfin son of Thorfin..."
Speight, Harry, "Chronicles and Stories of Old Bingley"(London: Elliot
Stock, 1898., p. 73 states, "Archil, the father of Gospatric, who lived in
the reign of Edward the Confessor, also rebelled against the Conqueror, and
was likewise dispossessed. Gospatric took to wife a daughter of Dolphin,
son of Thorfin, and ones of his sons was named after him.
Gospatric Fitz Arkil had another son named Dolfin, which name does not
appear in the family of Gospatric before his supposed marriage with the
daughter of Dolfin, son of Thorfin. Gospatric also had a son named Thorfin,
presumably named for Thorfin, the son of Sigurd, who later became the Earl
of Caithness (cf. CP II: 473).
We have evidence here of Dolphin, son of a Thorfinn, but was the
name so rare that it is safe to conclude that he was son of THE
Thorfinn?
taf
Hugh Watkins
2003-08-23 07:32:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Malinda Jones
By THE Thorfinn, are you referring to Thorfinn Skullsplitter ?
~malinda
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
The evidence for the existence of a son Dolfin is found in several
secondary
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
Ellis, Alfred S., "Biographical Notes on the Yorkshire Tenants Named in
Domesday Book," The Yorkshire Archaeological Journal 4:385 states,
"Gospatric [son of Arkill] took to wife a daughter of Dolfin, son of
Thorfin, and had a son, Gospatric, who "of late ought to have fought
with"
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
Turner, Joseph Horsfall, "Ancient Bingley or Bingley, Its History and
Scenery"(Bingley: Thomas Harrison, 1897.), p. 62 states, "Gospatric fitz
Arkill married a daughter of Dolfin son of Thorfin..."
Speight, Harry, "Chronicles and Stories of Old Bingley"(London: Elliot
Stock, 1898., p. 73 states, "Archil, the father of Gospatric, who lived
in
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
the reign of Edward the Confessor, also rebelled against the Conqueror,
and
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
was likewise dispossessed. Gospatric took to wife a daughter of
Dolphin,
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
son of Thorfin, and ones of his sons was named after him.
Gospatric Fitz Arkil had another son named Dolfin, which name does not
appear in the family of Gospatric before his supposed marriage with the
daughter of Dolfin, son of Thorfin. Gospatric also had a son named
Thorfin,
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
presumably named for Thorfin, the son of Sigurd, who later became the
Earl
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
of Caithness (cf. CP II: 473).
We have evidence here of Dolphin, son of a Thorfinn, but was the
name so rare that it is safe to conclude that he was son of THE
Thorfinn?
you better go to Icelandic or Old Danish to get spellings right
Post by Malinda Jones
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
written
by an Icelandic scholar in the early 13th century. <



Hugh W

====== searches for urtext ==============
here

Hér hefir fyrst af Orkneyjajöllum eður Orkneyinga þáttur
1r - 51v

http://saga.library.cornell.edu/saganet/?MIval=/SinglePage&Manuscript=95&Page=1&language=english
Norse attacks on England and Arnórr Jarlaskald's Þorfinnsdrápa.
K. E. Gade
Indiana



The life and dees of Jarl Þorfinnr Sigurðarson of Orkney (c. 1009-1065) are recorded in detail in prose in Orkneyinga saga and also
commemorated in Arnórr jarlaskald Thordharson Þorfinnsdrápa. The buld of the latter is preserved in Orneyinga saga, where individual
stanzas or sequences of stanzas are interspersed with the prose and cited by the saga author as historical verification of Þorfinnr'
s power and military prowess, focusing on his campaigns in the British Isles and Ireland during the years 1023-44. According to the
saga, Þorfinnr gave up his warlike exploits after the death of nephew, Roegnvaaldr Brúsason. He embarked on a pilgrimage to Rome (c.
1049), returned to Orkney, and allegedly spent the rest of his life peacefully, building churches and upholding the law. An
examination of Anglo-Saxon, Irish, and Welsh historical records, however, shows that the account of Þorfinnr's later days given in
Orkneyinga saga is inaccurate. It appears that the jarl of Orkney, in allegiance with his Norwegian overlord, Haraldr Sigurðarson,
continued to play an active part in Scottish-Irish affairs throughout his life. Furthermore, the saga author, intenionally or
unintentionally, must have cited the stanzas of Arnórr's Þorfinnsdrápa out of sequence to create a fictional narrative. Thus the
order of stanzas in that poem as presented by the standard editions of skaldic poetry (which follow the chronology of events in
Orkneyinga saga) is incorrect.

<<



http://www.skandinavistik.uni-bonn.de/saga-conference/abstracts/workshop-k/Gade.doc.


name list



http://www.anyadrish.net/textes/borealia/eddaenprose/skaldatalvo.html



Hér hefr upp skáldatal Nóregskonunga.

the Kings of Norway from an old oral genealogy

later written down ?Sturlason?



http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Nafna%C3%BEulur



http://www.home.no/norron-mytologi/diverse/kilder.htm

kilder sources

http://www.am.hi.is MSS collection formerly in Copenhagen University http://www.hum.ku.dk/ami/

but repatriated http://www.hum.ku.dk/ami/transfer.html
Post by Malinda Jones
The first consignment of manuscripts was dispatched from Copenhagen to Reykjavík in June 1973. The transfer of manuscripts has
continued regularly over the last 25 years and is now complete, the last two manuscripts having been handed over in June 1997.
Altogether a total of 1,666 manuscripts have been transferred to Iceland from the Arnamagnæan Collection and 141 from the Royal
Library, in addition to all the Icelandic charters and apographa. Through purchases and gifts the institute in Reykjavík has
acquired a further 90 manuscripts since its foundation. <<

http://www.hum.ku.dk/ami/am73b.html
Hal Bradley
2003-09-23 19:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Malinda,

I do not know about the Skullsplitter reference. I am referring to Thorfinn,
"Jarl of Orkney in the Kingdom of Norway, was EARL OF CAITHNESS, holding
undoubtedly the entire Earldom of Caithness for a long period. He was son
and heir of Sigurd, the Second, also of Orkney, by a daughter of Malcolm II,
KING OF SCOTLAND, and was 5 years old at his father's death in 1014..." CP
2:473. Is this the same individual?

Hal Bradley
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: Orkneyinga Saga
By THE Thorfinn, are you referring to Thorfinn Skullsplitter ?
~malinda
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
The evidence for the existence of a son Dolfin is found in several
secondary
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
Ellis, Alfred S., "Biographical Notes on the Yorkshire
Tenants Named in
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
Domesday Book," The Yorkshire Archaeological Journal 4:385 states,
"Gospatric [son of Arkill] took to wife a daughter of Dolfin, son of
Thorfin, and had a son, Gospatric, who "of late ought to have fought
with"
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
Turner, Joseph Horsfall, "Ancient Bingley or Bingley, Its History and
Scenery"(Bingley: Thomas Harrison, 1897.), p. 62 states,
"Gospatric fitz
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
Arkill married a daughter of Dolfin son of Thorfin..."
Speight, Harry, "Chronicles and Stories of Old Bingley"(London: Elliot
Stock, 1898., p. 73 states, "Archil, the father of Gospatric,
who lived
in
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
the reign of Edward the Confessor, also rebelled against the
Conqueror,
and
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
was likewise dispossessed. Gospatric took to wife a daughter of
Dolphin,
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
son of Thorfin, and ones of his sons was named after him.
Gospatric Fitz Arkil had another son named Dolfin, which name does not
appear in the family of Gospatric before his supposed
marriage with the
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
daughter of Dolfin, son of Thorfin. Gospatric also had a son named
Thorfin,
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
presumably named for Thorfin, the son of Sigurd, who later became the
Earl
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Hal Bradley
of Caithness (cf. CP II: 473).
We have evidence here of Dolphin, son of a Thorfinn, but was the
name so rare that it is safe to conclude that he was son of THE
Thorfinn?
taf
Tim Powys-Lybbe
2003-08-23 21:43:17 UTC
Permalink
Hal,
Is "ancient Bingley" the same as Beanley?
With a gt-grandfather who lived in Bingley, I can fairly confidently
say no. It is a small town not far from Leeds, Yorkshire.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe ***@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Hal Bradley
2003-09-23 20:02:43 UTC
Permalink
I do not recall who asked the question as I have lost most of my e-mails and
am trying to recover what data I can. The question asked was if the
references to Thorfinn was necessarily to Thorfinn, Earl of Caithness.

Admittedly, I cannot find the reference right now. I thought it might have
been in Simeon of Durham's account, where Thorfinn, father of Dolfin was
referred to as Earl. However, the volume was not on the shelf for the three
days I was at the library and I was unable to verify if that is where I saw
the reference to Thorfinn being an Earl.

If anyone has additional information on the identity of Thorfinn, I would
appreciate them sharing it with me. If not, I will continue on with my
search. Thanks.

Hal Bradley
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 9:07 AM
Subject: RE: Orkneyinga Saga
The evidence for the existence of a son Dolfin is found in
several secondary
Ellis, Alfred S., "Biographical Notes on the Yorkshire Tenants Named in
Domesday Book," The Yorkshire Archaeological Journal 4:385 states,
"Gospatric [son of Arkill] took to wife a daughter of Dolfin, son of
Thorfin, and had a son, Gospatric, who "of late ought to have fought with"
(his cousin) Waltheof, son of Eilsi of Tees, perhaps about some of those
lands of the see of Durham, which bishop Aldun had given his
daughter, from
whom both were descended." He does cite Ordericus IV.iv and IV.v in this
general section, but I do not have access to this and do not know if there
is relevant info relating to Dolfin.
Turner, Joseph Horsfall, "Ancient Bingley or Bingley, Its History and
Scenery"(Bingley: Thomas Harrison, 1897.), p. 62 states, "Gospatric fitz
Arkill married a daughter of Dolfin son of Thorfin..."
Speight, Harry, "Chronicles and Stories of Old Bingley"(London: Elliot
Stock, 1898., p. 73 states, "Archil, the father of Gospatric, who lived in
the reign of Edward the Confessor, also rebelled against the
Conqueror, and
was likewise dispossessed. Gospatric took to wife a daughter of Dolphin,
son of Thorfin, and ones of his sons was named after him. Gospatric, the
elder, was the only Englishman in Yorkshire permitted to keep any of his
estates after the survey of England completed by the Conqueror in 1086.
Gospatric forfeited the manor of Bingley, but retained many others,
including the manor of Holden-in-Craven, which he continued to hold as the
king's thane. He must not be confounded with Gospatric, ancestor of the
Earls of Dunbar..."
On page 74 of Speight's book is a pedigree chart showing the relationship
between Gospatric, Earl of Dunbar and Gospatric, son of Arkil. In addition
to Gospatric, Arkil is the father of another Arkil who was the father of
Alwyn, ancestor to the Earls of Lennox as noted in "Complete Peerage" VII,
p. 586. This chart fills in the early part of the pedigree
suggested in CP.
The elder Arkil, son of Uchtred, Earl of Northumbria, is not to be confused
with a contemporary Arkil of Ripley, who Ellis identifies as the son of Ulf
(Ellis, 4:390).
Gospatric Fitz Arkil had another son named Dolfin, which name does not
appear in the family of Gospatric before his supposed marriage with the
daughter of Dolfin, son of Thorfin. Gospatric also had a son
named Thorfin,
presumably named for Thorfin, the son of Sigurd, who later became the Earl
of Caithness (cf. CP II: 473).
Dolfin, son of Thorfin, held the manor of Appletreewick. Dolfin, son of
Gospatric later held three manors: Appletreewick, Hartlington, and
Rilleston. "Ilbert de Laci acquired Dolfin's manor in Bradley" (Ellis,
4:392). This Dolfin also became the ancestor of the family of 'de Hebden',
benefactors to Fountains Abbey, as well as the Brodelegh/Bradley family of
Bingley & Halifax.
I can provide more info if there is any interest in this early family.
Thanks for any help anyone can provide by pointing me in the
right direction
to further verify this line.
Hal Bradley
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Orkneyinga Saga
How reliable is the "Orkneyinga Saga" for the period of 1000-1100?
Apparently it was recorded c. 1200. I am trying to document a
third son for
Thorfinn, Earl of Caithness, named Dolfin. "Complete Peerage",
II:473 names
sons Paul and Erland. Apparently, Dolfin died before his father.
Thanks for
your help.
See other responses in this thread for some general comments. As for
the specific matter of an alleged son named Dolfin, the "Orkneyinga
Saga" mentions no such son. That does not mean that no such son
existed, but the question then becomes: What evidence is there for
such a son in the first place?
Stewart Baldwin
Tim Robb
2003-09-23 20:30:29 UTC
Permalink
Aren't Simeon of Durham's works available online somewhere? In any
case, I have them at home (History of the Kings, History of the Church
of Durham). Let me know if you want me to check, and please give me
indications as to where to look, as my editions (facsimile reprints of
J. Stevenson's editions) do not include an index.

Regards,
Tim Robb
Antibes, France
Post by Hal Bradley
Admittedly, I cannot find the reference right now. I thought it might have
been in Simeon of Durham's account, where Thorfinn, father of Dolfin was
referred to as Earl. However, the volume was not on the shelf for the three
days I was at the library and I was unable to verify if that is where I saw
the reference to Thorfinn being an Earl.
Hal Bradley
2003-09-23 19:53:23 UTC
Permalink
The reference is definitely to Bingley, located in the West Riding of
Yorkshire.

As far as Gospatric goes, Gospatric in Bingley was the son of Arkil, the son
of Uchtred. Gospatric of Beanley was the great-grandson of Uchtred through
Ealdgyth, daughter of Uchtred's third wife.

Hal Bradley
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: Orkneyinga Saga
Hal,
Is "ancient Bingley" the same as Beanley? In "The Origin of the
Families of Greystoke and Dunbar" which appeared in NEHGR volume 97,
SHL Washington noted that Gospatrick II received Beanley from Henry I,
which had previously been held by Edmund, his mother's brother. Would
this give a clue to Gospatric I's wife?
Regards,
Bob
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