Oliver Cromwell`s Royal Ancestors

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Will, Merilyn et alia,
Major Goof . I found my notes on
the Williams article in NEHGR. no mention of Joan Tudor, parentless or
otherwise. It gives the Williams line as follows
Howell Williams was the father of Morgan I Williams who married Joan
Batton their son Thomas Williams had two children John Williams who married
Margaret, daughter of Richard Smyth and granddaughter of William and
Margaret (daughter Robert Cromwell) Smyth and William Williams who was the father
of Morgan II Williams who married Katherine Cromwell, their son Sir
Richard assumed the additional surname of Cromwell married Frances Murfyn and
had Sir Henry Cromwell married Joan , daughter of Sir Ralph Warren, Lord
Mayor of London, his son Robert Cromwell died 1617 married Elizabeth, sister
of Sir Robert Stewart of Ely. they were Oliver Cromwell`s parents the John
Williams who married the Margaret Smyth above had twio sons John Williams
who married Joan Wykes and Richard Williams who married 2nd Christian NN
who had by him a son John Williams who by a unknown wife had a son William
Williams He married 1st Jane Shepherd and 2nd Jane Woodward by the 2nd
wife he had Richard Williams who married Frances Deighton and migrated to
Massachusetts..

Leo Van de Pas kindly emailed me about a royal descent Henry I , King of
England - Robert de Caen,1st Earl of Gloucester married Mabel Fitz Robert -
Maud of Gloucester married Ranulf de Mechines, Earl of Chester - Hugh,
Earl of Chester married Bertrada de Montfort- Mabel of Chester married
William d`Aubigny, 3rd Earl of Arundel - Nichola d`Aubigny married Roger de
Somery - Margaret de Somery married Ralph IV de Cromwell- Ralph V de Cromwell
married Joan Somerville, daughter of Robert de Somerville and Isabel,
daughter of Roger de Merlay (I think this is Roger III who Douglas Richardson
discovered was married to Isabel de Roos, which gives a descent from
William I of Scotland) - Ralph VI de Cromwell married Joan de la Mare - Ralph
VII Cromwell married Anice de Bellers - Ulker Cromwell - Richard Cromwell-
John Cromwell - Robert Cromwell killed in battle in 1461 (? Towton) had at
least two children William Cromwell who married Margaret Smyth and
Margaret Cromwell who married William Smyth - John Cromwell married his 1st cousin
Joan Smyth - Walter Cromwell married a daughter of Glossop - Katherine
Cromwell who married Morgan II Williams , so through Margaret (Cromwell)
Smyth, Richard Williams of Taunton, Massachusetts descended from both King
Henry I of England and King William I of Scotland and Oliver Cromwell has an
additional descent through each through her brother William Cromwell.
Sincerely,
James
W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

[John]

Post by J***@aol.com
Dear Will, Merilyn et alia,
                                        Major Goof . I found my notes on
the Williams article in NEHGR. no mention of  Joan Tudor, parentless or
otherwise.  It gives the Williams line as  follows
    Howell Williams was the father of Morgan I Williams  who married Joan
Batton their son Thomas Williams had two children John Williams  who married
Margaret, daughter of Richard Smyth and granddaughter of William and  
Margaret (daughter Robert Cromwell) Smyth and William Williams who was the  father
of Morgan II Williams who married Katherine Cromwell, their son  Sir  
Richard assumed the additional surname of Cromwell  married Frances Murfyn  and
had  Sir Henry Cromwell married Joan , daughter of Sir Ralph Warren,  Lord
Mayor of London, his son Robert Cromwell died 1617 married  Elizabeth, sister
of Sir Robert Stewart of Ely. they were Oliver Cromwell`s  parents  the John
Williams who married the Margaret Smyth above had twio  sons John Williams
who married Joan Wykes and  Richard Williams who married  2nd Christian NN
who had by him a son John Williams who by a unknown wife  had  a son William
Williams He married 1st Jane Shepherd and 2nd Jane  Woodward by the  2nd
wife he had Richard Williams who married Frances  Deighton and migrated to
Massachusetts..
 Leo Van de Pas kindly emailed me about a royal descent  Henry I , King  of
England - Robert de Caen,1st Earl of Gloucester married Mabel Fitz Robert -
 Maud of Gloucester married Ranulf de Mechines, Earl of Chester - Hugh,
Earl  of Chester  married Bertrada de Montfort- Mabel of Chester married  
William d`Aubigny, 3rd Earl of Arundel - Nichola d`Aubigny married  Roger  de
Somery - Margaret de Somery married Ralph IV de Cromwell- Ralph V de Cromwell  
married  Joan Somerville, daughter of Robert de Somerville and Isabel,  
daughter of Roger de Merlay (I think this is Roger III who Douglas Richardson  
discovered was  married to Isabel de Roos, which gives a descent from  
William I of Scotland) -  Ralph VI de Cromwell married Joan de la Mare -  Ralph
VII Cromwell married Anice de Bellers - Ulker  Cromwell -  Richard  Cromwell-
John Cromwell - Robert Cromwell killed in battle in  1461 (? Towton) had  at
least two children William Cromwell who married  Margaret Smyth and
Margaret Cromwell who married William Smyth - John  Cromwell married his 1st cousin
 Joan Smyth - Walter Cromwell married a  daughter of Glossop - Katherine
Cromwell who married Morgan II Williams , so  through Margaret (Cromwell)
Smyth, Richard Williams of Taunton,  Massachusetts descended from both  King
Henry I of  England and King  William I of Scotland and Oliver Cromwell has an
additional descent through each  through her brother William Cromwell.
                                                       Sincerely,
                                                                      James
W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Can you give a specific citation for the NEHGR article regarding the
Williams ancestry? I believe a somewhat different version can be
constructed from various compilations of Welsh pedigrees, but I need
to do more work on this.

As to the supposed Cromwell ancestry and the connection to the earlier
Cromwell family, this has been posted here before (long ago) but
without any sources to support it. Leo's database also shows this
line but again without any supporting sources. Can anyone validate
this supposed lineage?

A much more limited ancestry for Thomas Cromwell, Earl of Essex, and
his sister Catherine, extending back only to their great-grandfather
William Cromwell of Norwell, near Cromwell and Carlton-on-Trent,
Nottinghamshire, can be found in Rev. Frederick George Lee,"The
History, Description, and Antiquities of the Prebendal Church of the
Blessed Virgin Mary of Thame" (London, 1883). It does not include the
supposed connection to the earlier Cromwell family. Barring better
evidence, I continue to think that this latter connection is a Tudor-
era invention. In particular, the 4 generations starting with Ulker
Cromwell seem questionable.

[CE Wood]

NEHGR 51:209-212


CE Wood

Post by John

Post by J***@aol.com
Dear Will, Merilyn et alia,
                                        Major Goof . I found my notes on
the Williams article in NEHGR. no mention of  Joan Tudor, parentless or
otherwise.  It gives the Williams line as  follows
    Howell Williams was the father of Morgan I Williams  who married Joan
Batton their son Thomas Williams had two children John Williams  who married
Margaret, daughter of Richard Smyth and granddaughter of William and  
Margaret (daughter Robert Cromwell) Smyth and William Williams who was the  father
of Morgan II Williams who married Katherine Cromwell, their son  Sir  
Richard assumed the additional surname of Cromwell  married Frances Murfyn  and
had  Sir Henry Cromwell married Joan , daughter of Sir Ralph Warren,  Lord
Mayor of London, his son Robert Cromwell died 1617 married  Elizabeth, sister
of Sir Robert Stewart of Ely. they were Oliver Cromwell`s  parents  the John
Williams who married the Margaret Smyth above had twio  sons John Williams
who married Joan Wykes and  Richard Williams who married  2nd Christian NN
who had by him a son John Williams who by a unknown wife  had  a son William
Williams He married 1st Jane Shepherd and 2nd Jane  Woodward by the  2nd
wife he had Richard Williams who married Frances  Deighton and migrated to
Massachusetts..
 Leo Van de Pas kindly emailed me about a royal descent  Henry I , King  of
England - Robert de Caen,1st Earl of Gloucester married Mabel Fitz Robert -
 Maud of Gloucester married Ranulf de Mechines, Earl of Chester - Hugh,
Earl  of Chester  married Bertrada de Montfort- Mabel of Chester married  
William d`Aubigny, 3rd Earl of Arundel - Nichola d`Aubigny married  Roger  de
Somery - Margaret de Somery married Ralph IV de Cromwell- Ralph V de Cromwell  
married  Joan Somerville, daughter of Robert de Somerville and Isabel,  
daughter of Roger de Merlay (I think this is Roger III who Douglas Richardson  
discovered was  married to Isabel de Roos, which gives a descent from  
William I of Scotland) -  Ralph VI de Cromwell married Joan de la Mare -  Ralph
VII Cromwell married Anice de Bellers - Ulker  Cromwell -  Richard  Cromwell-
John Cromwell - Robert Cromwell killed in battle in  1461 (? Towton) had  at
least two children William Cromwell who married  Margaret Smyth and
Margaret Cromwell who married William Smyth - John  Cromwell married his 1st cousin
 Joan Smyth - Walter Cromwell married a  daughter of Glossop - Katherine
Cromwell who married Morgan II Williams , so  through Margaret (Cromwell)
Smyth, Richard Williams of Taunton,  Massachusetts descended from both  King
Henry I of  England and King  William I of Scotland and Oliver Cromwell has an
additional descent through each  through her brother William Cromwell.
                                                       Sincerely,
                                                                      James
W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Can you give a specific citation for the NEHGR article regarding the
Williams ancestry?  I believe a somewhat different version can be
constructed from various compilations of Welsh pedigrees, but I need
to do more work on this.
As to the supposed Cromwell ancestry and the connection to the earlier
Cromwell family, this has been posted here before (long ago) but
without any sources to support it.  Leo's database also shows this
line but again without any supporting sources.  Can anyone validate
this supposed lineage?
A much more limited ancestry for Thomas Cromwell, Earl of Essex, and
his sister Catherine, extending back only to their great-grandfather
William Cromwell of Norwell, near Cromwell and Carlton-on-Trent,
Nottinghamshire, can be found in Rev. Frederick George Lee,"The
History, Description, and Antiquities of the Prebendal Church of the
Blessed Virgin Mary of Thame" (London, 1883).  It does not include the
supposed connection to the earlier Cromwell family.  Barring better
evidence, I continue to think that this latter connection is a Tudor-
era invention. In particular, the 4 generations starting with Ulker
Cromwell seem questionable.

[pj.evans]

Post by John

Post by J***@aol.com
Dear Will, Merilyn et alia,
                                        Major Goof . I found my notes on
the Williams article in NEHGR. no mention of  Joan Tudor, parentless or
otherwise.  It gives the Williams line as  follows
    Howell Williams was the father of Morgan I Williams  who married Joan
Batton their son Thomas Williams had two children John Williams  who married
Margaret, daughter of Richard Smyth and granddaughter of William and  
Margaret (daughter Robert Cromwell) Smyth and William Williams who was the  father
of Morgan II Williams who married Katherine Cromwell, their son  Sir  
Richard assumed the additional surname of Cromwell  married Frances Murfyn  and
had  Sir Henry Cromwell married Joan , daughter of Sir Ralph Warren,  Lord
Mayor of London, his son Robert Cromwell died 1617 married  Elizabeth, sister
of Sir Robert Stewart of Ely. they were Oliver Cromwell`s  parents  the John
Williams who married the Margaret Smyth above had twio  sons John Williams
who married Joan Wykes and  Richard Williams who married  2nd Christian NN
who had by him a son John Williams who by a unknown wife  had  a son William
Williams He married 1st Jane Shepherd and 2nd Jane  Woodward by the  2nd
wife he had Richard Williams who married Frances  Deighton and migrated to
Massachusetts..
 Leo Van de Pas kindly emailed me about a royal descent  Henry I , King  of
England - Robert de Caen,1st Earl of Gloucester married Mabel Fitz Robert -
 Maud of Gloucester married Ranulf de Mechines, Earl of Chester - Hugh,
Earl  of Chester  married Bertrada de Montfort- Mabel of Chester married  
William d`Aubigny, 3rd Earl of Arundel - Nichola d`Aubigny married  Roger  de
Somery - Margaret de Somery married Ralph IV de Cromwell- Ralph V de Cromwell  
married  Joan Somerville, daughter of Robert de Somerville and Isabel,  
daughter of Roger de Merlay (I think this is Roger III who Douglas Richardson  
discovered was  married to Isabel de Roos, which gives a descent from  
William I of Scotland) -  Ralph VI de Cromwell married Joan de la Mare -  Ralph
VII Cromwell married Anice de Bellers - Ulker  Cromwell -  Richard  Cromwell-
John Cromwell - Robert Cromwell killed in battle in  1461 (? Towton) had  at
least two children William Cromwell who married  Margaret Smyth and
Margaret Cromwell who married William Smyth - John  Cromwell married his 1st cousin
 Joan Smyth - Walter Cromwell married a  daughter of Glossop - Katherine
Cromwell who married Morgan II Williams , so  through Margaret (Cromwell)
Smyth, Richard Williams of Taunton,  Massachusetts descended from both  King
Henry I of  England and King  William I of Scotland and Oliver Cromwell has an
additional descent through each  through her brother William Cromwell.
                                                       Sincerely,
                                                                      James
W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Can you give a specific citation for the NEHGR article regarding the
Williams ancestry?  I believe a somewhat different version can be
constructed from various compilations of Welsh pedigrees, but I need
to do more work on this.
As to the supposed Cromwell ancestry and the connection to the earlier
Cromwell family, this has been posted here before (long ago) but
without any sources to support it.  Leo's database also shows this
line but again without any supporting sources.  Can anyone validate
this supposed lineage?
A much more limited ancestry for Thomas Cromwell, Earl of Essex, and
his sister Catherine, extending back only to their great-grandfather
William Cromwell of Norwell, near Cromwell and Carlton-on-Trent,
Nottinghamshire, can be found in Rev. Frederick George Lee,"The
History, Description, and Antiquities of the Prebendal Church of the
Blessed Virgin Mary of Thame" (London, 1883).  It does not include the
supposed connection to the earlier Cromwell family.  Barring better
evidence, I continue to think that this latter connection is a Tudor-
era invention. In particular, the 4 generations starting with Ulker
Cromwell seem questionable.

Burke's _Dormant and Extinct Peerages_ says of Richard Williams alias
Cromwell only that he was connected in some way to Thomas Cromwell.
The Tudors are not mentioned as connected to Richard by birth or
marriage, and I think if there were such a connection it would appear
in Burke.

[Hal Bradley]

The purported ancestry of Richard Williams and his connection to Morgan
Williams appears to be incorrct. According to Holman's article, "English
Ancestry of Richard Williams and His Wife Frances (Deighton) Williams," The
American Genealogist 9:3 (Jan 1933), pp. 137, 141:


"Several times a lineage has been printed puporting to prove that John
Williams, grandfather of our Richard, was son of a Richard Williams
(1487-1559), of Monmouthshire; grandson of a John Williams who was Steward
of Wimbledon Manor in Surrey; great-grandson of a Thomas Williams of
Glamorgan, who in turn was a son of Morgan Williams of Glamorgan. But the
College of Arms states that this lineage cannot be correct as Thomas, the
son of Morgan Williams, adopted the surname of Lloyd. The College of Arms in
their report adds further:


"It seems that little reliance can be placed on the pedigree printed in the
'New England Register,' vol. 51, pp. 210-2, as the researches then carried
out were made with the object of supporting the preconceived idea that a
connection existed with the family of Cromwell alias Williams."



Richard Williams' ancestry has not been proven beyond his grandfather, John
Williams.



Hal Bradley

Nov 27, 2010 05:42:59 PM, ***@aol.com wrote:

Dear Will, Merilyn et alia,
Major Goof . I found my notes on
the Williams article in NEHGR. no mention of Joan Tudor, parentless or
otherwise. It gives the Williams line as follows
Howell Williams was the father of Morgan I Williams who married Joan
Batton their son Thomas Williams had two children John Williams who
married
Margaret, daughter of Richard Smyth and granddaughter of William and
Margaret (daughter Robert Cromwell) Smyth and William Williams who was the
father
of Morgan II Williams who married Katherine Cromwell, their son Sir
Richard assumed the additional surname of Cromwell married Frances Murfyn
and
had Sir Henry Cromwell married Joan , daughter of Sir Ralph Warren, Lord
Mayor of London, his son Robert Cromwell died 1617 married Elizabeth,
sister
of Sir Robert Stewart of Ely. they were Oliver Cromwell`s parents the John
Williams who married the Margaret Smyth above had twio sons John Williams
who married Joan Wykes and Richard Williams who married 2nd Christian NN
who had by him a son John Williams who by a unknown wife had a son William
Williams He married 1st Jane Shepherd and 2nd Jane Woodward by the 2nd
wife he had Richard Williams who married Frances Deighton and migrated to
Massachusetts..
Leo Van de Pas kindly emailed me about a royal descent Henry I , King of
England - Robert de Caen,1st Earl of Gloucester married Mabel Fitz Robert
-
Maud of Gloucester married Ranulf de Mechines, Earl of Chester - Hugh,
Earl of Chester married Bertrada de Montfort- Mabel of Chester married
William d`Aubigny, 3rd Earl of Arundel - Nichola d`Aubigny married Roger
de
Somery - Margaret de Somery married Ralph IV de Cromwell- Ralph V de
Cromwell
married Joan Somerville, daughter of Robert de Somerville and Isabel,
daughter of Roger de Merlay (I think this is Roger III who Douglas
Richardson
discovered was married to Isabel de Roos, which gives a descent from
William I of Scotland) - Ralph VI de Cromwell married Joan de la Mare -
Ralph
VII Cromwell married Anice de Bellers - Ulker Cromwell - Richard Cromwell-
John Cromwell - Robert Cromwell killed in battle in 1461 (? Towton) had at
least two children William Cromwell who married Margaret Smyth and
Margaret Cromwell who married William Smyth - John Cromwell married his
1st cousin
Joan Smyth - Walter Cromwell married a daughter of Glossop - Katherine
Cromwell who married Morgan II Williams , so through Margaret (Cromwell)
Smyth, Richard Williams of Taunton, Massachusetts descended from both King
Henry I of England and King William I of Scotland and Oliver Cromwell has
an
additional descent through each through her brother William Cromwell.
Sincerely,
James
W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
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[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 11/27/2010 8:25:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,

Post by CE Wood
NEHGR 51:209-212

http://books.google.com/books?id=hcgMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA210

[John]

Post by J***@aol.com
Dear Will, Merilyn et alia,
                                        Major Goof . I found my notes on
the Williams article in NEHGR. no mention of  Joan Tudor, parentless or
otherwise.  It gives the Williams line as  follows
    Howell Williams was the father of Morgan I Williams  who married Joan
Batton their son Thomas Williams had two children John Williams  who married
Margaret, daughter of Richard Smyth and granddaughter of William and  
Margaret (daughter Robert Cromwell) Smyth and William Williams who was the  father
of Morgan II Williams who married Katherine Cromwell,  
                                                       Sincerely,
                                                                      James
W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

For an ancestry of Morgan Williams, the husband of Catherine Cromwell,
which appears to be supported by standard compilations of Welsh
pedigrees (notably Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies), see this pedigree in
the FHL's Family Search Community Trees database:

http://histfam.familysearch.org/pedigree.php?personID=I33398&tree=Welsh

If you follow the links forward from the elder Morgan (great-
grandfather of this Morgan) and read it in parallel with the NEHGR
article on the supposed Williams line, you can see why the ancestry
proposed for Gov. Williams of Maine in the HENGR article fails, as
indicated by Hal Bradley earlier in this thread.

And definitely no Tudor ancestry for Morgan Williams - which was the
question that started this discussion.

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Will, John, et alia.
On a Nottinghamshire history site I
found a reference to a Ulgar Cromwell who had a portion of the manor of
Hucknall Torkard, Notts give it to Beauvale Priory in 1331, however, another
site indicates the priory also known as Beauvale Charterhouse wasn`t
founded until 1343. In any case the Ralph VII - Ulgar Cromwell relationship
(father and son) appears questionable.

Concerning the Manor referred to above
Hucknall Torkard also called Hokenal, Nottingham was held in the late twelveth
century by Geoffrey Torkard who had a wife Maud, their eldest son Henry
Torkard who in 1198 married Alina, daughter of William Pite and between
1243-1266 Robert Torkard held it as well as Lenton, Notts. presumedly a Torkard
daughter or granddaughter married a Cromwell and the manor passed to Ulgar
Cromwell through her including the possibility that she was his wife.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

[W***@aol.com]

What site.
we have to get rid of "presumably" and find an actual source




In a message dated 11/28/2010 4:44:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
***@aol.com writes:

On a Nottinghamshire history site I
found a reference to a Ulgar Cromwell who had a portion of the manor of
Hucknall Torkard, Notts give it to Beauvale Priory in 1331, however,
another
site indicates the priory also known as Beauvale Charterhouse wasn`t
founded until 1343. In any case the Ralph VII - Ulgar Cromwell
relationship
(father and son) appears questionable.

Concerning the Manor referred to above
Hucknall Torkard also called Hokenal, Nottingham was held in the late
twelveth
century by Geoffrey Torkard who had a wife Maud, their eldest son
Henry
Torkard who in 1198 married Alina, daughter of William Pite and between
1243-1266 Robert Torkard held it as well as Lenton, Notts. presumedly a
Torkard
daughter or granddaughter married a Cromwell and the manor passed to
Ulgar
Cromwell through her including the possibility that she was his wife.