Dear Douglas
Thanks so much for your very comprehensive reply. It's given me much food
for thought and rich avenues of discovery to pursue. I shall have fun
digging further.
Best wishes
Merilyn
-------Original Message-------
From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 3/09/2012 2:25:43 AM
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Cc: Gen-Med List
Subject: Alice de Coleville, mistress of John Marshal, King's Marshal
Dear Merilyn ~
Thank you for your good post. You've asked an excellent question.
Surviving records of the Beauchamp family of Hatch Beauchamp, Somerset
indicate that Robert de Beauchamp of Hatch Beauchamp (died 1263) and his
maternal aunt, Sibyl de Bermingham, were in default in 1255 in respect of
the manor of Dorton, Buckinghamshire; they absented themselves from suit of
court for three years [see Hund. R. (Rec. Com.), I, 26].
As such, it appears that Robert de Beauchamp's mother, Juliane, and her
sister, Sibyl de Bermingham (ancestress of the later Lords Ferrers of
Chartley) were co-heirs of the manor of Dorton, Buckinghamshire. Indeed a
moiety share of this manor descended in each of these families. Robert and
his aunt, Sibyl, also each inherited a half share of the manor of
Maidencourt (in East Garston), Berkshire [see Lysons, Magna Britannia 1
(1806): 283].
There is a very sketchy history of the history of Dorton, Buckinghamshire
published in VCH Buckingham 4 (1927): 45-48. The following information is
given in that source:
"No certain record of the sub-tenancy of Dorton before the 13th century
survives, though possibly the knight's fee which Pain de Dorton held of
Walter Giffard in 1166 was in this parish. (fn. 15) By 1255 the manor had
been divided into two parts. (fn. 16) One of these, then owned by Sibyl de
Birmingham." END OF QUOTE.
That Pain de Dorton held lands at Dorton, Buckinghamshire is established by
Kennett, Parochial Antiq. Attempted in the Hist. Of Ambrosden, Burcester &
other adjacent Parts 2 (1818): 457. This source includes a charter of Pain
de Dorton and Rose his wife, and William their son and heir, who granted
Nutley Abbey the chapel of Dorton, Buckinghamshire and one yard land there.
Mr. Kennett dates this charter as being about 1188, which seems reasonable
to me.
Proceedings of Somerset Arch. & Nat. Hist. Soc. 36(2) (1891): 2059 gives
the following additional information regarding Pain de Dorton:
"In the former county they held the manor of Dourton, which suggests a
probable connection with the Bauchamps Barons of Bedford, as in the reign of
Henry II, Dourton was in the possession of Payan de Dourton, and Roesia, his
wife, who
May have been Payan, son of Hugh Beauchamp (the founder of the family,
according to Dugdale'"'), and Roesia, his wife, daughter of Aubrey de Vere.
There is a difficulty, however, in establishing their identity, as the son
and heir of Payan de Dourton is called William ; whereas the name of the
eldest
Son of Payan Beauchamp was Simon. In Berks the Beauchamps held the manor of
Maidencote, and in a fine levied 32nd Henry III, between John, Prior of
Sandelford [in Berkshire], plaintiff, and Robert Beauchamp the younger,
Defendant, the said Robert granted to the Prior and his successors two
quarters of corn yearly from his manor of Maidencote, with a proviso for
increasing it, if at any time the lands which Sibilla his aunt (" amita"),
held in the ville
Of Maidencote as her portion of the inheritance of Alice de Coleville her
mother, should devolve on the said Robert or his heirs." END OF QUOTE.
As we can see above, there is a Berkshire fine dated 1247-8 in which Robert
de Beauchamp's aunt [amita], Sibyl, is specifically named. And Sibyl in turn
is there identified as the daughter of Alice de Coleville.
Thus it would appear that Robert de Beauchamp's maternal grandmother was a
certain Alice de Coleville. It is easy to assume that Coleville was Alice's
married name. However, it is just as possible that Coleville was this lady's
maiden name.
VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 246-251 includes a history of the subtenancy of the
manor of Maidencourt (in East Garston), Berkshire. The following information
is given there:
"The tenant in demesne in the time of Henry II was Osbert de la Herloteria,
who was dead before 1190. The next tenant was Alice de Colville, who made a
grant of 6 quarters of wheat here to the priory of Sandleford for the souls
of John Le Marshal and his son William Earl of Pembroke. (fn. 70) She
evidently had two daughters and co-heirs, of whom one, Sibyl, married a
Birmingham and the other married Robert Beauchamp of Hatch, Somerset. (fn.
71) Robert Beauchamp, nephew of Sibyl, and William de Birmingham held
Maidencourt in the middle of the 13th century." END OF QUOTE.
Once again we meet with Alice de Coleville (or Colville), who is said to
have made a grant to the "priory of Sandleford" "for the souls of John Le
Marshal and his son William Earl of Pembroke." Surely Sandford Priory is
intended and those charters are now in print.
Elsewhere Haskins Society Journal, volume 10 (2002) contains an interesting
article by Richard Dace entitled "Lesser Barons and Greater Knights: The
Middling Group within the English Nobility c.1086-c.1265." This article may
be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=y_x4xbPOvGAC&pg=PA65
On page 65 the following information is given:
"The marriage of William of Birmingham III with Sibyl de Coleville in the
early thirteenth century can also be seen in terms of forging a new
relationship outside the honorial structure. Sibyl was the daughter and
co-heiress of Alice de Coleville, who was the mistress of William Marshal's
brother John. It does not seem unreasonable to suggest that this was an
attempt by the Birmingham family toi become part of the Earl Marshal's
affinity; the 'penunmbra of men, whom it would be difficult to call
followers because they did not follow him on any regular basis.'" [Footnote
citation: William Marshal 81 n. 33 and Book of Fees, 842 and 881.]. END OF
QUOTE.
So there you have it. Alice de Coleville was the mistress of John Marshal,
King's Marshal (died 1194), elder brother of the famous William Marshal,
Earl of Pembroke.
Was John Marshal the father of Alice de Colville's daughters, Juliane and
Sibyl. On this point, I can't immediately answer. I do know that Alice was
the mother of John Marshal's illegitimate son, Sir John Marshal, Knt.,
Marshal of Ireland (died 1235).
Is there any connection between Alice de Colville and Pain de Dorton? Again
I can't answer that question but my guess is not. Presumably the Marshal
family settled the manors of Dorton and Maidencourt on Alice de Colville,
and they in turn passed by inheritance to her daughter, Sibyl de Bermingham,
and grandson, Robert de Beauchamp. If Alice only had illegitimate issue,
however, technically they could not inherit from her. However, if a
settlement of Alice's lands was made on her daughters at the time of their
marriage, I assume the king would have honored that settlement.
I've leave it to you Merilyn to track down the other references given above,
including William Marshal 81 n. 33 and Leys, Sandford Cartulary 1
(Oxfordshire Rec. Soc. 19) (1938) and 2 (Oxfordshire Rec. Soc. 22) (1941). I
assume the William Marshal reference is the book written by David Crouch.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Post by m***@internode.on.netIn February 2002 there was a discussion here about Juliana Brett, the wife
of Robert III de Beauachamp of Hatch Beauchamp, Somerset.
Douglas Richardson mentioned that his research indicated that she was not a
Brett at all, but rather the "daughter and co-heiress of Pain de Dourton, of
Dourton, co.
Buckingham. This discovery will be covered by the forthcoming book
Baronial
Post by m***@internode.on.netAncestry, due out in about a year."
Could someone please enlighten me as to who this lady was please?
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Ausstralia
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