Neil earl of Carrick and Niall Ruadh O'Neill

[Banks, Steven]

Hi all,

Flipping through the fourth edition of G.W.S Barrow's Robert Bruce and the Community
of the Realm of Scotland, Barrow attributes his decision to publish an updated, fourth
edition, as partly based on his conversations with Andrew B.W. MacEwen and
acceptance of MacEwen's theory that Earl Duncan of Carrick's son Nicholas
(or Nicol, per previous posts on this topic) married a daughter of Niall Ruadh
O'Neill, brother and successor of Aodh (II) O'Neill of the Cenel Eoghain, who
was mother of Earl Neill of Carrick (d.1260).

Here's what Barrow says:

'Bruce's son and heir - the fifth Robert Bruce to hold the lordship of Annandale and
the second of three with whom we are chiefly concerned in this book - had meanwhile
turned the family interests westward and gained a Scottish earldom. Neil,
earl of Carrick - his name, unique among the Scots nobility, was evidently taken from
his maternal grandfather Niall Ruadh O'Neill, king of Cenel Eoghainn - died in 1260,
the last direct male descendant of Fergus, lord of Galloway in King David's reign. His heir
was his eldest daughter, Marjorie, married to Adam of Kilconquhar. Adam died at Acre
on the crusade from which the elder Bruce returned safely, and about 1272 his widow
married Bruce the younger, who thus became, jure uxoris, the earl of Carrick." (Barrow p. 34)

In the footnote to the above Barrow says (after thanking MacEwen):

"I am able to base my suppositions regarding the Carrick ancestry of Robert I on his
valuable hypothesis, namely that Earl Duncan of Carrick's son and heir Nicholas (North
Beriwck Carte no. 15), who evidently died in his father's lifetime, married a daughter of Niall
Ruadh, brother and briefly successor of Aedh II O'Neill kind of Cenel Eoghain (Tyrone). They
had a son, Earl Neill (Niall), who died, leaving four daughters, in the earlier part of 1260. Thus it
would have been natural for Robert I's eldest brother to have been fostered with his second cousin
once removed, Domhnall O'Neill, Niall Ruadh's grandson, who succeeded to Tyrone in 1283."
(Barrow p. 430, note 26)

Does anyone know what primary source evidence MacEwen and Barrow used to form this hypothesis?



P.S. - In the next paragrpah Barrow talks about Marjorie being descended from Henry I
(through Fergus) and the footnote to this section has "....The suggestion in Scots Peerage, s.v. 'Galloway',
that Gilbert, Uhtred's brother had a different mother is contradicted by Cal. Docs. Scot, i, no. 480
where King John calls Duncan of Carrick his cousin." (Barrow p. 431)

This is in contradiction to Richard Oram also in his 'The Lordship of Galloway'. I only bring this up
because I didn't know about the King John reference and I've always adhered to the theory that Gilbert
and Uhtred were half-brothers.

Thanks,
Steve

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

I think Oram is wrong on this. Descendants of both Uchtred and
Gilbert claimed kinship with the English Kings. Daphne Brooke wrote a
note about this somewhere if TDGNHAS.

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Steve, Alex, et al.,

There is no direct evidence of the maternal descent of Neil (or
Niall), earl of Carrick, from the O'Neills - had any been found to
date, I'm sure that Andrew MacEwen (and now G. W. S. Barrow) would
have cited same. The indirect evidence is intriguing, nonetheless.

The initial source of the quest for an O'Neill link comes from
the Remonstrance of 1317, addressed by Donal O'Neill to Pope John
XXII. In this interesting text, O'Neill, 'by hereditary right King of
Ireland', surrendered his right to rule to Edward Bruce 'Earl of
Carrick, sprung from the most illustrious of our ancestors'. One
could argue this was the appropriate use of literary license for
political ends: at the same time, the O'Neill were rightfully proud of
their own paternal ancestry, and the inference that this letter quite
possibly referred to Edward Bruce's share in the O'Neill descent (if
via a maternal link) is not unreasonable. This may be original with
Andrew MacEwen, but I am not certain of this (he would certainly
confirm whether this was true or not). Andrew may well (and hopefully
will) have more to say on this topic in the near future.

Cheers,

John

Post by Banks, Steven
Hi all,
Flipping through the fourth edition of G.W.S Barrow's Robert Bruce and the Community
of the Realm of Scotland, Barrow attributes his decision to publish an updated, fourth
edition, as partly based on his conversations with Andrew B.W. MacEwen and
acceptance of MacEwen's theory that Earl Duncan of Carrick's son Nicholas
(or Nicol, per previous posts on this topic) married a daughter of Niall Ruadh
O'Neill, brother and successor of Aodh (II) O'Neill of the Cenel Eoghain, who
was mother of Earl Neill of Carrick (d.1260).
'Bruce's son and heir - the fifth Robert Bruce to hold the lordship of Annandale and
the second of three with whom we are chiefly concerned in this book - had meanwhile
turned the family interests westward and gained a Scottish earldom. Neil,
earl of Carrick - his name, unique among the Scots nobility, was evidently taken from
his maternal grandfather Niall Ruadh O'Neill, king of Cenel Eoghainn - died in 1260,
the last direct male descendant of Fergus, lord of Galloway in King David's reign. His heir
was his eldest daughter, Marjorie, married to Adam of Kilconquhar. Adam died at Acre
on the crusade from which the elder Bruce returned safely, and about 1272 his widow
married Bruce the younger, who thus became, jure uxoris, the earl of Carrick." (Barrow p. 34)
"I am able to base my suppositions regarding the Carrick ancestry of Robert I on his
valuable hypothesis, namely that Earl Duncan of Carrick's son and heir Nicholas (North
Beriwck Carte no. 15), who evidently died in his father's lifetime, married a daughter of Niall
Ruadh, brother and briefly successor of Aedh II O'Neill kind of Cenel Eoghain (Tyrone). They
had a son, Earl Neill (Niall), who died, leaving four daughters, in the earlier part of 1260. Thus it
would have been natural for Robert I's eldest brother to have been fostered with his second cousin
once removed, Domhnall O'Neill, Niall Ruadh's grandson, who succeeded to Tyrone in 1283."
(Barrow p. 430, note 26)
Does anyone know what primary source evidence MacEwen and Barrow used to form this hypothesis?
P.S. - In the next paragrpah Barrow talks about Marjorie being descended from Henry I
(through Fergus) and the footnote to this section has "....The suggestion in Scots Peerage, s.v. 'Galloway',
that Gilbert, Uhtred's brother had a different mother is contradicted by Cal. Docs. Scot, i, no. 480
where King John calls Duncan of Carrick his cousin." (Barrow p. 431)
This is in contradiction to Richard Oram also in his 'The Lordship of Galloway'. I only bring this up
because I didn't know about the King John reference and I've always adhered to the theory that Gilbert
and Uhtred were half-brothers.
Thanks,
Steve