Discussion:
Francis Hutton, father-in-law of George Thomason
(too old to reply)
David Teague
2021-03-02 03:37:29 UTC
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Can anyone tell me whether Sir Richard Hutton of Goldsborough, Justice of the Common Pleas (1560-1639), who was descended from Edward III via Lionel of Antwerp, and his wife Agnes Briggs, were the parents of the Francis Hutton who was in the retinue of Count Gondomar?

Francis Hutton and his wife, Mary Fetherston, an aunt of the first baronet Fetherston, were the parents of the Katherine Hutton who married George Thomason, the collector of the English Civil Wars-era tracts now in the British Library.

Thanks in advance.
Brad Verity
2021-03-02 07:43:11 UTC
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Post by David Teague
Can anyone tell me whether Sir Richard Hutton of Goldsborough, Justice of the Common Pleas (1560-1639), who was descended from Edward III via Lionel of Antwerp, and his wife Agnes Briggs, were the parents of the Francis Hutton who was in the retinue of Count Gondomar?
What is the descent for Sir Richard Hutton from Lionel of Antwerp? I have him as a descendant of Edward I through his maternal grandmother Elizabeth Dacre, wife of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton Castle (d. 1532). But I have this Elizabeth (Dacre) Musgrave as an illegitimate daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland, not a legitimate daughter by his wife Elizabeth Greystoke. Am I incorrect in this?

Per his entry in the ODNB, Sir Richard Hutton "married Agnes Briggs (d. c.1648), who came from Westmorland, may have been a lawyer's daughter, eventually bore her husband nine children, and still outlived him."
https://www.oxforddnb.com/view/10.1093/ref:odnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-14311?rskey=t9vsVD&result=2

There is a pedigree of "Hutton, now of Goldesborough" taken at the 1612 Visitation of Yorkshire, and edited by Joseph Foster, p. 536:
https://archive.org/details/McGillLibrary-hssl_visitation-yorkshire_CS437Y4A2-19990/page/n559/mode/2up

It shows that Sir Richard and Agnes had four sons -- "Christopher Hutton, son and heir, aet. 20, 1612", Richard, Thomas, Henry -- and five daughters -- Edith, Mary, Jane, Catherine, Julyan.

No Francis. Sir Richard himself was the informant at the Visitation, so presumably his listing of his children was accurate.

Sir Richard's eldest son Christopher died four years after the Visitation, and it was his second son Richard Hutton who succeeded. This younger Sir Richard has an entry in HOP:
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/hutton-richard-1594-1645

Sir Richard's youngest son was Rev. Henry Hutton, Rector of Long Marton, Westmorland 1640-55, buried 22 March 1655 at Long Marton.

I don't have any further information on the third son Thomas Hutton.
Post by David Teague
Francis Hutton and his wife, Mary Fetherston, an aunt of the first baronet Fetherston, were the parents of the Katherine Hutton who married George Thomason, the collector of the English Civil Wars-era tracts now in the British Library.
Thanks in advance.
Hope this helps.

Cheers, ------Brad
wjhonson
2021-03-02 15:30:22 UTC
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Post by Brad Verity
Post by David Teague
Can anyone tell me whether Sir Richard Hutton of Goldsborough, Justice of the Common Pleas (1560-1639), who was descended from Edward III via Lionel of Antwerp, and his wife Agnes Briggs, were the parents of the Francis Hutton who was in the retinue of Count Gondomar?
What is the descent for Sir Richard Hutton from Lionel of Antwerp? I have him as a descendant of Edward I through his maternal grandmother Elizabeth Dacre, wife of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton Castle (d. 1532). But I have this Elizabeth (Dacre) Musgrave as an illegitimate daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland, not a legitimate daughter by his wife Elizabeth Greystoke. Am I incorrect in this?
Per his entry in the ODNB, Sir Richard Hutton "married Agnes Briggs (d. c.1648), who came from Westmorland, may have been a lawyer's daughter, eventually bore her husband nine children, and still outlived him."
https://www.oxforddnb.com/view/10.1093/ref:odnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-14311?rskey=t9vsVD&result=2
https://archive.org/details/McGillLibrary-hssl_visitation-yorkshire_CS437Y4A2-19990/page/n559/mode/2up
It shows that Sir Richard and Agnes had four sons -- "Christopher Hutton, son and heir, aet. 20, 1612", Richard, Thomas, Henry -- and five daughters -- Edith, Mary, Jane, Catherine, Julyan.
No Francis. Sir Richard himself was the informant at the Visitation, so presumably his listing of his children was accurate.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/hutton-richard-1594-1645
Sir Richard's youngest son was Rev. Henry Hutton, Rector of Long Marton, Westmorland 1640-55, buried 22 March 1655 at Long Marton.
I don't have any further information on the third son Thomas Hutton.
Post by David Teague
Francis Hutton and his wife, Mary Fetherston, an aunt of the first baronet Fetherston, were the parents of the Katherine Hutton who married George Thomason, the collector of the English Civil Wars-era tracts now in the British Library.
Thanks in advance.
Hope this helps.
Cheers, ------Brad
That she was illegitimate the following, reposted from archives

Subj: Re: Anthony Browne and his wife Magdalen
Date: 9/23/05 11:47:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: ***@yahoo.com (Mark Briscoe)
To: ***@aol.com

...Sources [which] give Elizabeth Dacre as an illegitimate daughter :P.W. Hasler's The History of Parliament: The House of Commons 1558-1603 under the entry for William Musgrave. Hasler gives his sources as Hutchinson's History of Cumberland and Req. 2/265/69. I am in the process of obtaining this document from the Archives, but I live in the U.S. and the process is rather slow. An article in the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society Transactions v. 13ns by B.G.R. Hale also discusses the origins of Elizabeth (Dacre) Musgrave, calling her an illegitimate daughter of Lord Thomas. There are other sources, as well.
wjhonson
2021-03-02 15:39:14 UTC
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On Tues
Post by wjhonson
That she was illegitimate the following, reposted from archives
Subj: Re: Anthony Browne and his wife Magdalen
Date: 9/23/05 11:47:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time
...Sources [which] give Elizabeth Dacre as an illegitimate daughter :P.W. Hasler's The History of Parliament: The House of Commons 1558-1603 under the entry for William Musgrave. Hasler gives his sources as Hutchinson's History of Cumberland and Req. 2/265/69. I am in the process of obtaining this document from the Archives, but I live in the U.S. and the process is rather slow. An article in the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society Transactions v. 13ns by B.G.R. Hale also discusses the origins of Elizabeth (Dacre) Musgrave, calling her an illegitimate daughter of Lord Thomas. There are other sources, as well.
And for those who do not have access to ODNB, the older DNB page is here

https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofnati28stepuoft/page/359/mode/1up?ref=ol&view=theater&q=hutton
wjhonson
2021-03-02 15:51:05 UTC
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The daughter Elizabeth m John Dawney of Womersley York and had at least three sons
The daughter Katherine m Gervase Neville of Haddington in Aubourne Lincs and they had at least four children
Brad Verity
2021-03-02 23:10:20 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
That she was illegitimate the following, reposted from archives
...Sources [which] give Elizabeth Dacre as an illegitimate daughter :P.W. Hasler's The History of Parliament: The House of Commons 1558-1603 under the entry for William Musgrave. Hasler gives his sources as Hutchinson's History of Cumberland and Req. 2/265/69. I am in the process of obtaining this document from the Archives, but I live in the U.S. and the process is rather slow. An article in the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society Transactions v. 13ns by B.G.R. Hale also discusses the origins of Elizabeth (Dacre) Musgrave, calling her an illegitimate daughter of Lord Thomas. There are other sources, as well.
I believe the article referred to above is 'Edenhall Church and its Glass' (TCWAAS 1913) by Rev. Bernard G.R. Hale & Dr. Francis Haswell. It can be downloaded here:
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/library/browse/details.xhtml?recordId=3195402

On p. 232, it states, "The remaining shield has the four coats the same as the last [Musgrave, Stapleton, Colvill, and Tilliol], impaling DACRE with a bendlet az. for difference, and the inscription :—'Thomas Musgrave sonne and heir to Nicholas Musgrave. and Margaret Colvill maried Elezabeth daughter to Thomas L. Dacre.'"

Lower on the same page, in the pedigree, is "Thomas Musgrave, son and heir, obit 1535. = Elizabeth, dau. of Thomas, Lord Dacre of Gilsland."

The article and its pedigree doesn't specifically state that Elizabeth Musgrave was Lord Dacre's illegitimate daughter. But the fact that the Dacre coat of arms in the stained glass of the church has a bendlet azure, for difference, suggests illegitimacy. For Thomas, Lord Dacre, was the head of his family and as such his coat of arms would not be differenced. Rev. Hale and Dr. Haswell believed that this stained glass with the Musgrave coats of arms was created in the late 17th-century. So at least by then, there was a tradition within the family that Elizabeth was an illegitimate daughter of Lord Dacre.

In his 'The History and Antiquities of the County Palatine of Durham' Volume 1 (1816), Robert Surtees has a pedigree "Descent of Laton, Tylliol, and Musgrave, Owners of Hetton" in which, "Thomas Musgrave, obit 1532. = Elizabeth, base dau. of Lord Dacre, sister to Thomas Dacre of Lanercost".

There is an article by Henry Summerson in ODNB on the Dacre family of Lanercost, where he states, "The founder of the Lanercost family, Sir Thomas Dacre (d. 1565), was the illegitimate son of Thomas Dacre (1467–1525), the second baron, and an unknown mother, and was first recorded in 1529 as the apparently loyal servant of his half-brother William Dacre (1500–1563), the second baron's successor."
https://www.oxforddnb.com/view/10.1093/ref:odnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-71861?rskey=PnQ4yg&result=9

Stephen G. Ellis has an article in the ODNB on Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre, and states, "His heir was his son William Dacre, whom he matched with the fourth earl of Shrewsbury's daughter Elizabeth, and who also came to rule the west march, though without achieving the wider ascendancy that his father had enjoyed. The other children of his marriage were Humphrey, Mary (who married Shrewsbury's heir Francis Talbot), Mabel (who married Henry, seventh Lord Scrope of Bolton), and Joan. He also had an illegitimate son Thomas, founder of the Dacre family."
https://www.oxforddnb.com/view/10.1093/ref:odnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-50220?rskey=PnQ4yg&result=16

Since Surtees specifically calls Elizabeth (Dacre) Musgrave the sister of Sir Thomas Dacre of Lanercost, it suggests she may have shared the same mother (whose identity is no longer known) as Lord Dacre's illegitimate son. Ellis not including Elizabeth amongst the 2nd Lord Dacre's children by his wife Elizabeth Greystoke is further indication that she was not legitimate.
Post by wjhonson
The daughter Elizabeth m John Dawney of Womersley York and had at least three sons
The daughter Katherine m Gervase Neville of Haddington in Aubourne Lincs and they had at least four children
The youngest daughter, Julian Hutton, died 5 March 1660, buried St Cuthbert Church, Edenhall, Cumberland, married 1625, Sir Philip Musgrave, 2nd Baronet of Hartley Castle (1607-1678), and had issue.

Cheers, -----Brad
David Teague
2021-03-03 04:46:44 UTC
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Brad,

This is the Lionel of Antwerp descent I have for Sir Richard Hutton:

Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence + Elizabeth de Burgh, 4th Countess of Ulster
Philippa of Clarence + Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March
Elizabeth Mortimer + Sir Henry Percy (Hotspur)
Elizabeth Percy + John Clifford, 7th Baron Clifford
Thomas Clifford, 8th Baron Clifford + Joan Dacre
Maud Clifford + 2. Sir Edmund Sutton of Dudley
Margaret Sutton (2nd wife) + Sir John Musgrave
Thomas Musgrave (+ Margaret Crackenthorpe?)
Elinor or Elizabeth Musgrave + Anthony Hutton
Sir Richard Hutton (1560-1639), Justice of the Common Pleas
Brad Verity
2021-03-03 08:58:34 UTC
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Post by David Teague
Brad,
Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence + Elizabeth de Burgh, 4th Countess of Ulster
Philippa of Clarence + Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March
Elizabeth Mortimer + Sir Henry Percy (Hotspur)
Elizabeth Percy + John Clifford, 7th Baron Clifford
Thomas Clifford, 8th Baron Clifford + Joan Dacre
Maud Clifford + 2. Sir Edmund Sutton of Dudley
Margaret Sutton (2nd wife) + Sir John Musgrave
Thomas Musgrave (+ Margaret Crackenthorpe?)
David, I have the descent down to this generation. But I have the Thomas Musgrave, eldest son of Sir John Musgrave of Fairbank (d. 1515) & his 2nd wife Margaret Dudley, with two wives, neither of which was Margaret Crackenthorpe.

I have as his first wife, Wylgefrid, daughter of Ralph Fenwick of Stanton Hall (d. c.1534) and Margery Mitford (d. 1535). In 'The Pedegre of Raffe Fenwyke of Stanton in Co. Northumberland, Esquyer' in the 1552 Visitation of the North, "Wylgeford [dau of Sir Ralph Fenwick of Stanton & Margery Corbet (sic, should be Mitford)], wedyd to Thomas Musgrave of Bewcastell"
https://archive.org/details/visitationsofthe00surtuoft/page/20/mode/2up

On 20 August 1535, Margery (Mitford) Fenwick "settled all her lands, &c., in Cresswell, Newbiggen, and Newcastle, upon this 'Wilgefrid,' for the term of her life, with rem. to Cuthbert Musgrave, son and heir of Thos. Musgrave, marshal of Berwick, and his heirs male"
https://books.google.com/books?id=AxYMAQAAMAAJ&dq=ralph%20fenwick%20and%20margery%20mitford&pg=PA113#v=onepage&q&f=false

On 7 March 1536, Westminster. "Cuthbert Musgrave, s. and h. of Thos. Musgrave, marshal of Berwick. To be bailiff of the town and lordship of Perythe (Penrith), Cumb., lately held by the said Thomas."
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Letters_and_Papers_Foreign_and_Domestic/gzwMAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Cuthbert+Musgrave+marshal+of+Berwick&pg=PA237-IA2&printsec=frontcover

So this Cuthbert Musgrave was of full age in 1536 (born by 1515). Presumably he was the son of Thomas Musgrave, marshal of Berwick, by his wife Wilgefrid Fenwick, daughter of Margaret (Mitford) Fenwick, though this isn't entirely clear.

But according to the HOP entry for William Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1597), his father Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1542), husband of Elizabeth Dacre of Gilsland, was marshal of Berwick.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/musgrave-william-1597

How can Thomas Musgrave, marshal of Berwick, have had a son and heir Cuthbert Musgrave, and also a son and heir William Musgrave? It's confusing.

The other wife I have for Thomas Musgrave, eldest son of Sir John Musgrave of Fairbank (d. 1515) & his 2nd wife Margaret Dudley, is Alice, one of the four daughters and coheirs of Thomas Beauchamp of Croglin and his wife Isabel Kirkbride.

12 July 1511, Windsor Castle. "Pardon and release for Richard Bell, and Margaret his wife, John Hoton [Hutton] and Elizabeth his wife, Thomas Musgrave and Alice his wife, Thomas Lancastre and Joan his wife, daughters and heirs of Thomas Beauchamp of Crogling, late sheriff of Cumberland;--also grant of the goods and chattels of the said Thomas Beauchamp, seized by John Ratclyff, late sheriff of the said county."
https://books.google.com/books?id=RVRAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA272&lpg=PA272&dq=thomas+beauchamp+of+crogling&source=bl&ots=ieGo0NLYN0&sig=ACfU3U2-YQizRAuk1hIafRTIOqmxA727sw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi22Puo0pPvAhXD7Z4KHQbpBxoQ6AEwEnoECB4QAw#v=onepage&q=thomas%20beauchamp%20of%20crogling&f=false

But by 1529-1532, Thomas Musgrave, husband of Alice Beauchamp, was dead.
C 1/643/24 "Plaintiffs: John Hutton of Penrith, gentleman, Elizabeth, his wife, Thomas Lancastre, esquire, Jane, his wife, Alice, late the wife of Thomas Musgrave, of Murton, esquire, John Bell of Howgill, yeoman, son and heir of Margaret Bell. Defendants: Christopher Dacre, knight. Subject: The manor of Croglin and townships of Wamersyke and Langmore, dower of Isabel, late the wife of Thomas Beauchamp of Croglin, esquire, which the said Elizabeth, Jane, Alice and Margaret, as his sisters and heirs, assigned to her for life, and which she leased to defendant, who claims the premises as sold to him by Humphrey, father of the said Thomas Beauchamp. Cumberland."
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/record?catid=-2444624&catln=7

It's worth noting that John Hutton of Penrith and his wife Elizabeth Beauchamp of Croglin, were the paternal grandparents of Sir Richard Hutton of Goldsborough.

Since Alice (Beauchamp) Musgrave survived her husband Thomas Musgrave, who had died by 1529-32, and Wilgefrid (Fenwick) Musgrave was living in 1535, I'm clearly incorrect in making these two ladies married to the same Thomas Musgrave.

Which leaves me with a few questions:
1) Who was "Thomas Musgrave of Bewcastell", husband of Wilgefrid Fenwick?
2) Who was "Thomas Musgrave, of Murton", husband of Alice Beauchamp?
3) Who was "Thomas Musgrave, marshal of Berwick", father of Cuthbert Musgrave?
4) Were either of the three Thomas Musgraves above, the Thomas Musgrave who was the eldest son of Sir John Musgrave and Margaret Dudley?
Post by David Teague
Elinor or Elizabeth Musgrave + Anthony Hutton
Sir Richard Hutton (1560-1639), Justice of the Common Pleas
OK, there is an account of the Hutton family of Hutton Hall in 'The History and Topography of the Counties of Cumberland and Westmorland' (1860) by William Whellan, who states, "ANTHONY Hutton , son and heir , married , in the reign of Henry VIII . , Elizabeth , daughter of Thomas Musgrave , Esq . , of Cumcatch , in the county of Cumberland , by his wife Elizabeth , illegitimate daughter of Thomas Lord Dacre of Gilsland."
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_and_Topography_of_the_Counti/bEI7AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Anthony+Hutton+married+Musgrave&pg=PA590&printsec=frontcover

In the article 'Additional Notes on the Heraldic Glass at Stobhall' by J.M. Gray, in 'Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland' (1894), pp. 9-10:
"The first was the marriage of Elizabeth Musgrave (daughter of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton
and Cumcatch, who died in 1532, and his wife, Elizabeth, natural daughter of Thomas, Lord Dacre) to Anthony Hutton of Hutton Hall, in Penrith. ... the identification of Thomas Musgrave of Cumcatch, whose daughter married Hutton, with Thomas Musgrave of Hayton, who died 1532,—this is, I think, certain from the following facts. All the printed pedigrees agree that Thomas Musgrave of Hayton married Elizabeth, bastard daughter of Thomas, Lord Dacre. Now in 1567 there is a petition of his son, Leonard Musgrave. He petitions Cecil, being then deputy captain of Bewcastle. From this petition it appears that Thomas, Lord Dacre, had demised Cumcatch. in Gilsland to petitioner's father, who had married a daughter of Thomas, Lord Dacre, his grandfather, for services rendered to his family, and Lord Dacre continued it to the petitioner, for his life."
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Proceedings_of_the_Society_of_Antiquarie/WuI-AAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Anthony+Hutton+married+Musgrave&pg=PA9&printsec=frontcover

The original August 1567 petition from Leonard Musgrave of Cumcatch states "...also because petitioner [Leonard Musgrave]'s father was tenant [in Cumcatch], having married a daughter of Thomas [2nd] Lord Dacre, his lordship [4th Lord Dacre]'s grandfather."
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Calendar_of_State_Papers_Domestic_Series/yhASAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Thomas+Musgrave+of+Cumcatch&pg=PA35&printsec=frontcover

This seems to be the evidence that Elizabeth Musgrave, wife of Anthony Hutton, was the daughter of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton Castle (d. 1532) and his wife Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland.

What is your evidence that she instead was the daughter of his first cousin Thomas Musgrave, son of Sir John Musgrave and Margaret Dudley?

Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad
Mary Morgan
2021-03-03 16:05:33 UTC
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Post by Brad Verity
1) Who was "Thomas Musgrave of Bewcastell", husband of Wilgefrid Fenwick?
2) Who was "Thomas Musgrave, of Murton", husband of Alice Beauchamp?
3) Who was "Thomas Musgrave, marshal of Berwick", father of Cuthbert Musgrave?
4) Were either of the three Thomas Musgraves above, the Thomas Musgrave who was the eldest son of Sir John Musgrave and Margaret Dudley?
Brad,
I have been struggling to sort out the various Musgraves for awhile but still have many questions. I do have some sources which seem to indicate that the Thomas Musgrave of Bewcastle, husband of Wilgefrid Fenwick, and the Thomas Musgrave, marshal of Berwick, father of Cuthbert Musgrave, were the same man:
Sir John Musgrave was appointed constable of Bewcastle with survivorship to son Thomas in 1493
Calendar of the Patent Rolls...Henry VII, Vol 1, p. 429
12 May 1493 Grant in survivorship to the king's servant John Musgrave, one of the knights for the king's body, and Thomas Musgrave, his son, of the office of constable or keeper of the castle of Bewcastell, co. Cumberland, and chief forester of the forest of Nichollforest, in the same co.; also for the exercise of the said office and the repair of the said castle, of all lands in Bewcastelldale, co. Cumb., late of John Middleton, knight, the park or laund of Plumpton in the forest of Inglewood, co. Cumb., and common pasture in the said forest; and of an annuity of 40 l , viz, 20 l out of the issues of the manor or lordship of Sourby in the said co., and the other 20 l out of the issues of the manors or lordships or lands of Randollington, Arthureth, and Lydell in the forest of Nicholforest aforesaid

This grant was renewed in 1514
Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII, Vol. 1, 1509-1514
Feb 1514 Sir John Musgrave, knight for the Body, and Thomas his son. Grant, in survivorship, of the offices of constable of the castle of Bewcastell, and chief forester of Nicholforeste, Cumb.; with grant, for repairs of the said castle, of. lands in Bewcastell Dale lately belonging to Sir John Middelton; and the park or laund of Plompton in the forest of Inglewood, and common of pasture there; with leave to build houses in the said park, and with annual rent of 40l., half payable from the issues of the manor aforesaid (of Sowerby ?) (fn. 3), and half from the manors of Randollington, Arthureth and Lyddell in Nichol-forest. Lambeth, 14 Feb. 5 Hen. VIII. Del. Westm., 18 Feb. P.S. Pat.5 Hen. VIII. p. 2, m. 14. [4791.]

I believe it was the same Thomas Musgrave who was appointed bailiff of Penrith in 1514, based purely on Sir John Musgrave’s association with Penrith, which would also seem to indicate that he was the son of Sir John and Margaret Dudley
Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII, Vol. 1, 1509-1514
3 Sep 1514 Thomas Musgrave, one of the King's spears in the retinue at Calais. To be bailiff of the town and lordship of Penrithe, Cumb., vice Richard Appilby, deceased; as amply as the said Richard or William Lonkester enjoyed the same. Farnham Castle, 3 Sept. 6 Hen. VIII. Del. Knoll, 16 Sept. P.S. (in English). Pat. 6 Hen. VIII. p. 2, m. 10. [5423.]

Thomas succeeded his father as constable of Bewcastle in 1515
Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII, Vol. 2, 1515-1518
28 Oct 1515 084. For TH. MUSGRAFE. To be constable of Bewcastell, and chief forester of Nichol forest, Cumb.; keeper of the possessions late of Sir John Middelton in Bewcastell Dale; the park of Plompton; and annuity of 40l. payable out of the manors of Sourby, Cumb., and Randollington, Arthureth, and Lyddell in Nicholforest. Westm., 28 Oct.

Apparently there were complaints that Thomas Musgrave was not carrying out his duties adequately at Bewcastle and an attempt was made to replace him in 1527 but he refused to surrender his patent
Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII, Vol. 4, 1524-1530
Dec 1527 6. Wm. lord Dacre, of Graistock. To be constable of Bewcastle and lands, chief forester of Nicol forest and the park of Plompton, Inglewood forest, Cumb., in reversion, formerly belonging to Sir Jo. Middelton, with an annual rent of 40l., on vacation by Tho. Musgrave. Westm., 6 Dec.—Pat. 19 Hen. VIII. p. 2, m. 18.
2 Apr 1528 Wm Ld Dacre to Wolsey...Wolsey wrote that he had spoken with Thos. Musgrave to deliver Beawcastell to Dacre, but it is in such decay no man can dwell there. Musgrave has clearly spoiled it; taken away all the lead, and broken the glass windows. Begs Wolsey will get Musgrave to surrender his patent, and he will reasonably agree with him at Wolsey's pleasure.
18 Jul 1528 Wm Ld Dacre to Wolsey...Thinks Thos. Musgrave should be ordered to lie in Bewcasteldale, which is most exposed to the incursions of the borderers.

Taking a somewhat speculative leap, I think Thomas Musgrave was persuaded to give up Bewcastle by appointing him marshal of Berwick. Note that Sir William Musgrave was appointed constable of Bewcastle on the same day that Thomas Musgrave was appointed marshal of Berwick
Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII, Vol. 5, 1531-1532
Apr 1531 . Thomas Musgrave. To be marshal of the town of Berwick, in like manner as Thomas Strangwyshe or Sir Thomas Foster enjoyed the same. Greenwich, 24 April 23 Hen. VIII. Del. Westm., 26 April. P.S. Pat. p. 1, m. 1.
24 Apr 1531 14. Sir William Musgrave. Grant of the office of constable or keeper of Bewcastell Castle, Cumb., and chief forester of Nicolforest, Cumb.,…

Thomas Musgrave was still marshal of Berwick in 1535 but he was deceased by Feb 1541
Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII, Vol. 8, January-July 1535
Apr 1535 27. Anthony Brakenburye, a gentleman usher of the Chamber. To be marshal of Berwick, with fees as enjoyed by Thomas Strangwais, Sir Thomas Foster, or Thomas Musgrave; in reversion after the said Thomas Musgrave, who holds the office by patent 26 April 23 Hen. VIII. Del. Westm., 17 April 26 Hen. VIII.—S.B.—Pat. p. 2.m.

Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII, Vol. 15, 1540
27 Feb 1541 Privy Council- Sir John Wythrington should be marshall of Berwick vice Thomas Musgrave deceased

As for his son Cuthbert, he had succeeded his father Thomas, marshal of Berwick, as bailiff of Penrith in 1536
Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII, Vol. 10, January-June 1536
Mar 1536 . Cuthbert Musgrave, s. and h. of Thos. Musgrave, marshal of Berwick. To be bailiff of the town and lordship of Perythe (Penrith), Cumb., lately held by the said Thomas. Del. Westm.,7 Mar.27 Hen. VIII. —S.B.

This record seems to indicate that the same Thomas was marshal of Berwick and bailiff of Penrith and I think also the constable of Bewcastle (in which case he would be the son of Sir John Musgrave and Margaret Dudley)

I think HOP sub William Musgrave has probably confused his father Thomas of Hayton with Thomas, son of Sir John; Thomas of Hayton was apparently dead by 1534 so he could not have been the marshal who was appointed in 1535
Durham Records: Cursitor's Records: Inquisitions Post Mortem Etc., p. 468
IPM taken 12 Oct 1534 at Durham for Thomas Musgrave. William, age 16, is son and heir. By deed dated 16 Jan 1532/3 he conveyed to Wm Ld Dacre his manors (certain lands held by Hugh and Christopher Musgrave of the gift of Margaret their mother excepted) to carry out Will-viz 40 l to use of Lancelot Salkeld; 40 l to use of Elizabeth his dau; 8 l to each of sons David, John, Thomas, and Leonard and 8 l to the child which his wife is pregnant with; the lands named are 1/4 pts as in IPM of William Musgrave [these were Tilliol properties inherited from his mother]
Brad Verity
2021-03-03 20:17:38 UTC
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Post by Mary Morgan
Brad,
Sir John Musgrave was appointed constable of Bewcastle with survivorship to son Thomas in 1493
Dear Mary,

Thank you for sharing your terrific and thorough research. Much appreciated. So of my original four questions about Thomas Musgrave, it appears that we can combine three of them. From what I can make out, that leaves us with three distinctive Thomas Musgraves in the early 16th-century:

1) Thomas Musgrave of Hayton Castle (d. 1533), son of Nicholas Musgrave of Hayton Castle & Margaret Colville, who married Elizabeth, illegitimate (apparently) daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland, and was father of William Musgrave of Hayton Castle (c.1518-1597), the M.P.
2) Thomas Musgrave of Bewcastle, marshal of Berwick (d. by 1541), son of Sir John Musgrave of Fairbank, constable of Bewcastle (d. 1515) & Margaret Dudley, first cousin of #1 above, who married Wilgefrid, daughter of Ralph Fenwick of Stanton Hall, and was father of Cuthbert Musgrave, bailiff of Penrith (b. by 1515).
3) Thomas Musgrave of Murton (d. by 1529-32), who married Alice, daughter and co-heir of Thomas Beauchamp of Croglin (d. 1511).
Post by Mary Morgan
Durham Records: Cursitor's Records: Inquisitions Post Mortem Etc., p. 468
IPM taken 12 Oct 1534 at Durham for Thomas Musgrave. William, age 16, is son and heir. By deed dated 16 Jan 1532/3 he conveyed to Wm Ld Dacre his manors (certain lands held by Hugh and Christopher Musgrave of the gift of Margaret their mother excepted) to carry out Will-viz 40 l to use of Lancelot Salkeld; 40 l to use of Elizabeth his dau; 8 l to each of sons David, John, Thomas, and Leonard and 8 l to the child which his wife is pregnant with; the lands named are 1/4 pts as in IPM of William Musgrave [these were Tilliol properties inherited from his mother]
By the 19th-century, it was thought that the wife of Anthony Hutton of Hutton Hall in Penrith (d. 1591), was Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533) and his wife Elizabeth Dacre. It is great to have the contemporary 16th-century evidence that there was such a daughter. Hopefully there will be further 16th-century evidence that it was indeed this Elizabeth Musgrave who was the wife of Anthony Hutton.

Thanks again, Mary, for your help with this.

Cheers, ------Brad
lancast...@gmail.com
2021-03-05 15:47:59 UTC
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Post by Brad Verity
Post by Mary Morgan
Brad,
Sir John Musgrave was appointed constable of Bewcastle with survivorship to son Thomas in 1493
Dear Mary,
1) Thomas Musgrave of Hayton Castle (d. 1533), son of Nicholas Musgrave of Hayton Castle & Margaret Colville, who married Elizabeth, illegitimate (apparently) daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland, and was father of William Musgrave of Hayton Castle (c.1518-1597), the M.P.
2) Thomas Musgrave of Bewcastle, marshal of Berwick (d. by 1541), son of Sir John Musgrave of Fairbank, constable of Bewcastle (d. 1515) & Margaret Dudley, first cousin of #1 above, who married Wilgefrid, daughter of Ralph Fenwick of Stanton Hall, and was father of Cuthbert Musgrave, bailiff of Penrith (b. by 1515).
3) Thomas Musgrave of Murton (d. by 1529-32), who married Alice, daughter and co-heir of Thomas Beauchamp of Croglin (d. 1511).
Post by Mary Morgan
Durham Records: Cursitor's Records: Inquisitions Post Mortem Etc., p. 468
IPM taken 12 Oct 1534 at Durham for Thomas Musgrave. William, age 16, is son and heir. By deed dated 16 Jan 1532/3 he conveyed to Wm Ld Dacre his manors (certain lands held by Hugh and Christopher Musgrave of the gift of Margaret their mother excepted) to carry out Will-viz 40 l to use of Lancelot Salkeld; 40 l to use of Elizabeth his dau; 8 l to each of sons David, John, Thomas, and Leonard and 8 l to the child which his wife is pregnant with; the lands named are 1/4 pts as in IPM of William Musgrave [these were Tilliol properties inherited from his mother]
By the 19th-century, it was thought that the wife of Anthony Hutton of Hutton Hall in Penrith (d. 1591), was Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533) and his wife Elizabeth Dacre. It is great to have the contemporary 16th-century evidence that there was such a daughter. Hopefully there will be further 16th-century evidence that it was indeed this Elizabeth Musgrave who was the wife of Anthony Hutton.
Thanks again, Mary, for your help with this.
Cheers, ------Brad
I do not think anyone has posted this TCWAAS article by Graham yet. The Border Manors. By T. H. B. GRAHAM. Communicated at Carlisle, April 14th, 1910.

Not sure if it really helps, but see the final pedigree at the very end: https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archiveDS/archiveDownload?t=arch-2055-1/dissemination/pdf/Article_Level_Pdf/tcwaas/002/1911/vol11/tcwaas_002_1911_vol11_0005.pdf

One question I have hit a few times is what evidence exists for any sons of Thomas d. 1532 apart from William the MP. Graham names a Leonard, but I now note that it is not a good sign he is associated with Bewcastle. (But OTOH I note the Leonard Brad has listed from the IPM.) Another son sometimes reported online is Humphrey, who supposedly married Anne, daughter of Thomas Wharton, AFTER she had been married to a Richard Musgrave. A possible source is perhaps this visitation: https://archive.org/details/pedigreesrecorde00sainrich/page/93/

I guess Haton is probably Hayton? Any ideas who this Humphrey could be?
Mary Morgan
2021-03-05 19:36:53 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Not sure if it really helps, but see the final pedigree at the very end: https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archiveDS/archiveDownload?t=arch-2055-1/dissemination/pdf/Article_Level_Pdf/tcwaas/002/1911/vol11/tcwaas_002_1911_vol11_0005.pdf
One question I have hit a few times is what evidence exists for any sons of Thomas d. 1532 apart from William the MP. Graham names a Leonard, but I now note that it is not a good sign he is associated with Bewcastle. (But OTOH I note the Leonard Brad has listed from the IPM.) Another son sometimes reported online is Humphrey, who supposedly married Anne, daughter of Thomas Wharton, AFTER she had been married to a Richard Musgrave. A possible source is perhaps this visitation: https://archive.org/details/pedigreesrecorde00sainrich/page/93/
I guess Haton is probably Hayton? Any ideas who this Humphrey could be?
I have a copy of the Will of William Musgrave (d. 1597) of Hayton that I obtained from the Carlisle Archives. (It is dated 1608 in the Archives catalog but the Will is actually dated 1595). He gives bequests to his brothers Thomas and Leonard, so they were both living at that time. He also asks that Humphrey Musgrave, his brother's son, be kept in school, but he does not name the brother. The other family members mentioned are son Edward, son Leonard (who is given Johnby), Isabel daughter of son Thomas [deceased], son in law Lowther and my daughter his wife [I believe this is Eleanor, wife of Sir Christopher Lowther], and son in law William Musgrave and my daughter his wife.

The Durham IPM cited above for Thomas Musgrave lists sons William, David, John, Thomas, and Leonard, daughter Elizabeth, and a child with which his wife is pregnant. I suspect the unborn child was Humphrey. I have not found any references to David and there are too many John Musgraves and Thomas Musgraves to be sure which ones they might be. John is perhaps dead by 1595 while Thomas is still living.

Leonard Musgrave is the petioner of 1567 cited above, in which he calls himself of Cumcatch, and says his father married a daughter of Thomas Lord Dacre. He was deputy captain of Bewcastle in 1583/4 and probably earlier.
Calendar of Letters and Papers Relating to the...Borders of England and Scotland, Vol. 1, p. 128
28 Jan 1583/4 Scrope to Walsingham. Leonard Musgrave, bro to Humphrey Musgrave my deputy, lying at Bewcastle as deputy to Sir Simon Musgrave for the time

Humphrey is referred to above as brother of Leonard and also as the deputy to Lord Scrope, warden of the West Marches. He is not mentioned in William's Will, so perhaps he was dead by then.

In going through the Border Papers, I also found references to a John Musgrave, who was land sergeant of Gilsland in 1598. He is described in the record below as a nephew of Humphrey Musgrave, who trained him up, so possibly a son of one of the other deceased brothers. I have a copy of this John Musgrave's Will dated 1618, in which he refers to his cousin Sir Edward Musgrave [son of William who died 1597].

Calendar of Letters and Papers Relating to the...Borders of England and Scotland, Vol. 2 , p. 568
20 Oct 1598 Scrope to Cecil- John Musgrave is not cousin german to Francis Dacre, but his grandmother was a base dau of the Lord Thos Dacre, grandfather of Francis Dacre; Umphrey Musgrave, a gent. of good estimation in our country, uncle to this John Musgrave, sometime deputy to [Scrope's] father, upon whom this John Musgrave did depend, served and thereby was trained up in service upon the Borders; he had always a disliking of Francis Dacre and were in displeasure until death of said Umphrey Musgrave; Musgraves were always against the Dacres; he [John] married Mr. Dudley's dau, but I know Mr. Dudley to be honest and sound, heir to Richard Dudley and nephew? to both John and Thos Dudley gents; refs to Dudley's disinherited Jesuit son; Dudley matched his younger son with Mr. John Middleton's dau; re John's ability, he is of the house of Edenhall, the best house of the Musgraves, of a younger brother; has a customary living of 40 l per annum

I am still working on sorting out the Musgrave and hope to get some more Wills when the Carlisle Archives reopens.
wjhonson
2021-03-06 05:28:16 UTC
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The farm called Cumcatch is also mentioned here

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/ecaaef79-d5a9-4384-a259-12d8b378fe55

Bond for £10
This record is held by Cumbria Archive Centre, Carlisle

Reference: D AY 1/212
Title: Bond for £10
Description:

William son and heir of Thomas Musgrave of Cumcatch to Edward Aglionby, esquire - to pay into the King's exchequer all such money as is owing to the Crown from a tax to be levied on the lands of William Musgrave and his wife.
Date: 10 November 1545
lancast...@gmail.com
2021-03-06 10:07:34 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Not sure if it really helps, but see the final pedigree at the very end: https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archiveDS/archiveDownload?t=arch-2055-1/dissemination/pdf/Article_Level_Pdf/tcwaas/002/1911/vol11/tcwaas_002_1911_vol11_0005.pdf
One question I have hit a few times is what evidence exists for any sons of Thomas d. 1532 apart from William the MP. Graham names a Leonard, but I now note that it is not a good sign he is associated with Bewcastle. (But OTOH I note the Leonard Brad has listed from the IPM.) Another son sometimes reported online is Humphrey, who supposedly married Anne, daughter of Thomas Wharton, AFTER she had been married to a Richard Musgrave. A possible source is perhaps this visitation: https://archive.org/details/pedigreesrecorde00sainrich/page/93/
I guess Haton is probably Hayton? Any ideas who this Humphrey could be?
I have a copy of the Will of William Musgrave (d. 1597) of Hayton that I obtained from the Carlisle Archives. (It is dated 1608 in the Archives catalog but the Will is actually dated 1595). He gives bequests to his brothers Thomas and Leonard, so they were both living at that time. He also asks that Humphrey Musgrave, his brother's son, be kept in school, but he does not name the brother. The other family members mentioned are son Edward, son Leonard (who is given Johnby), Isabel daughter of son Thomas [deceased], son in law Lowther and my daughter his wife [I believe this is Eleanor, wife of Sir Christopher Lowther], and son in law William Musgrave and my daughter his wife.
The Durham IPM cited above for Thomas Musgrave lists sons William, David, John, Thomas, and Leonard, daughter Elizabeth, and a child with which his wife is pregnant. I suspect the unborn child was Humphrey. I have not found any references to David and there are too many John Musgraves and Thomas Musgraves to be sure which ones they might be. John is perhaps dead by 1595 while Thomas is still living.
Leonard Musgrave is the petioner of 1567 cited above, in which he calls himself of Cumcatch, and says his father married a daughter of Thomas Lord Dacre. He was deputy captain of Bewcastle in 1583/4 and probably earlier.
Calendar of Letters and Papers Relating to the...Borders of England and Scotland, Vol. 1, p. 128
28 Jan 1583/4 Scrope to Walsingham. Leonard Musgrave, bro to Humphrey Musgrave my deputy, lying at Bewcastle as deputy to Sir Simon Musgrave for the time
Humphrey is referred to above as brother of Leonard and also as the deputy to Lord Scrope, warden of the West Marches. He is not mentioned in William's Will, so perhaps he was dead by then.
In going through the Border Papers, I also found references to a John Musgrave, who was land sergeant of Gilsland in 1598. He is described in the record below as a nephew of Humphrey Musgrave, who trained him up, so possibly a son of one of the other deceased brothers. I have a copy of this John Musgrave's Will dated 1618, in which he refers to his cousin Sir Edward Musgrave [son of William who died 1597].
Calendar of Letters and Papers Relating to the...Borders of England and Scotland, Vol. 2 , p. 568
20 Oct 1598 Scrope to Cecil- John Musgrave is not cousin german to Francis Dacre, but his grandmother was a base dau of the Lord Thos Dacre, grandfather of Francis Dacre; Umphrey Musgrave, a gent. of good estimation in our country, uncle to this John Musgrave, sometime deputy to [Scrope's] father, upon whom this John Musgrave did depend, served and thereby was trained up in service upon the Borders; he had always a disliking of Francis Dacre and were in displeasure until death of said Umphrey Musgrave; Musgraves were always against the Dacres; he [John] married Mr. Dudley's dau, but I know Mr. Dudley to be honest and sound, heir to Richard Dudley and nephew? to both John and Thos Dudley gents; refs to Dudley's disinherited Jesuit son; Dudley matched his younger son with Mr. John Middleton's dau; re John's ability, he is of the house of Edenhall, the best house of the Musgraves, of a younger brother; has a customary living of 40 l per annum
I am still working on sorting out the Musgrave and hope to get some more Wills when the Carlisle Archives reopens.
Thank you Mary, this is very interesting. Does this mean there were two Humphrey's? (One a grandson of Thomas of Hayton d. 1533, and one a son?) Am I correct in understanding that, looking at Brad's list of 3 Thomases, number 2 (d. by 1541) is the great grandson of Thomas number 1?
Mary Morgan
2021-03-06 15:10:43 UTC
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Yes, there were two Humphreys, one the brother of William (d. 1597) and one the nephew.

As for the Thomases, Thomas #1 (d. 1533) and Thomas #2 (d. by 1541) were first cousins.

Thomas Stapleton (d. bef Oct 1457) married Joan Stapleton and acquired Edenhall. He had four sons:
Sir Richard (d. 1491), heir to Hartley and Edenhall. His descendants held Edenhall.
Sir John (d. ca. 1515) of Penrith. He was the father of Thomas, marshall of Berwick (d. by 1541)
Nicholas (d. 1500). Sometimes called of Brackenthwaite but he acquired Hayton and Scaleby by marriage to Margaret Colville. His son and heir Thomas (d. 1533) married Elizabeth Dacre.
William (d. 1488) of Crookdake. He married Felicia Colville, the sister of Margaret. I have seen William referred to as "of Penrith" but not in any primary sources. This line usually called of Crookdake.

Regarding Cumcatch, that was apparently a Dacre property which was held by Thomas Musgrave after his marriage to Elizabeth Dacre. This Thomas was sometimes called of Cumcatch (like in the 1545 bond cited above). There was a later Thomas Musgrave of Cumcatch whose daughter Catherine (b. ca. 1601) married Sir Richard Graham, but I have not been able to definitely identify him.

The best secondary source on the Musgrave family is Percy Musgrave's Notes on the Ancient Family of Musgrave... (1911). It cites many primary sources as well as visitations. It is available on familysearch
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/item/454745-notes-on-the-ancient-family-of-musgrave-westmoreland-and-its-various-branches-in-cumberland-yorkshire-northumberland-somerset-etc?offset=1
Mary Morgan
2021-03-06 16:20:16 UTC
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Post by Mary Morgan
Yes, there were two Humphreys, one the brother of William (d. 1597) and one the nephew.
As for the Thomases, Thomas #1 (d. 1533) and Thomas #2 (d. by 1541) were first cousins.
Sir Richard (d. 1491), heir to Hartley and Edenhall. His descendants held Edenhall.
Sir John (d. ca. 1515) of Penrith. He was the father of Thomas, marshall of Berwick (d. by 1541)
Nicholas (d. 1500). Sometimes called of Brackenthwaite but he acquired Hayton and Scaleby by marriage to Margaret Colville. His son and heir Thomas (d. 1533) married Elizabeth Dacre.
William (d. 1488) of Crookdake. He married Felicia Colville, the sister of Margaret. I have seen William referred to as "of Penrith" but not in any primary sources. This line usually called of Crookdake.
That should be Thomas MUSGRAVE (d. bef 1457)
Brad Verity
2021-03-06 19:32:42 UTC
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The Durham IPM cited above for Thomas Musgrave lists sons William, David, John, Thomas, and Leonard, daughter Elizabeth, and a child with which his wife is pregnant. I suspect the unborn child was Humphrey.
I agree, Mary. The unborn child had to have been Humphrey Musgrave. Some pedigrees give Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533) and Elizabeth Dacre an additional daughter, Isabel Musgrave, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen (d. 1607). But not only is there no mention of a daughter Isabel in Thomas Musgrave's 1533 IPM, it is chronologically impossible for Isabel, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen, to have been a daughter of this couple. For she was still alive in 1641, and separated from her second husband John Vaux, whom she had married in 1610.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Ancestor/BksWAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Musgrave+of+Catterlen&pg=PA58&printsec=frontcover
20 Oct 1598 Scrope to Cecil- John Musgrave is not cousin german to Francis Dacre, but his grandmother was a base dau of the Lord Thos Dacre, grandfather of Francis Dacre; Umphrey Musgrave, a gent. of good estimation in our country, uncle to this John Musgrave, sometime deputy to [Scrope's] father, upon whom this John Musgrave did depend, served and thereby was trained up in service upon the Borders; he had always a disliking of Francis Dacre and were in displeasure until death of said Umphrey Musgrave; Musgraves were always against the Dacres; he [John] married Mr. Dudley's dau, but I know Mr. Dudley to be honest and sound, heir to Richard Dudley and nephew? to both John and Thos Dudley gents; refs to Dudley's disinherited Jesuit son; Dudley matched his younger son with Mr. John Middleton's dau; re John's ability, he is of the house of Edenhall, the best house of the Musgraves, of a younger brother; has a customary living of 40 l per annum
Thank you for sharing the above letter from Lord Scrope. It is strong - I would argue definitive - evidence that Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533), was indeed the illegitimate (or "base," as Scrope describes her) daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland. In 1598, Elizabeth had grandchildren, possibly even a son, still living, so this evidence, though not contemporary to Elizabeth's lifetime, still has the authority of direct family knowledge.

Cheers, -----Brad
Mary Morgan
2021-03-06 21:41:28 UTC
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Post by Brad Verity
The Durham IPM cited above for Thomas Musgrave lists sons William, David, John, Thomas, and Leonard, daughter Elizabeth, and a child with which his wife is pregnant. I suspect the unborn child was Humphrey.
I agree, Mary. The unborn child had to have been Humphrey Musgrave. Some pedigrees give Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533) and Elizabeth Dacre an additional daughter, Isabel Musgrave, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen (d. 1607). But not only is there no mention of a daughter Isabel in Thomas Musgrave's 1533 IPM, it is chronologically impossible for Isabel, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen, to have been a daughter of this couple. For she was still alive in 1641, and separated from her second husband John Vaux, whom she had married in 1610.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Ancestor/BksWAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Musgrave+of+Catterlen&pg=PA58&printsec=frontcover
20 Oct 1598 Scrope to Cecil- John Musgrave is not cousin german to Francis Dacre, but his grandmother was a base dau of the Lord Thos Dacre, grandfather of Francis Dacre; Umphrey Musgrave, a gent. of good estimation in our country, uncle to this John Musgrave, sometime deputy to [Scrope's] father, upon whom this John Musgrave did depend, served and thereby was trained up in service upon the Borders; he had always a disliking of Francis Dacre and were in displeasure until death of said Umphrey Musgrave; Musgraves were always against the Dacres; he [John] married Mr. Dudley's dau, but I know Mr. Dudley to be honest and sound, heir to Richard Dudley and nephew? to both John and Thos Dudley gents; refs to Dudley's disinherited Jesuit son; Dudley matched his younger son with Mr. John Middleton's dau; re John's ability, he is of the house of Edenhall, the best house of the Musgraves, of a younger brother; has a customary living of 40 l per annum
Thank you for sharing the above letter from Lord Scrope. It is strong - I would argue definitive - evidence that Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533), was indeed the illegitimate (or "base," as Scrope describes her) daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland. In 1598, Elizabeth had grandchildren, possibly even a son, still living, so this evidence, though not contemporary to Elizabeth's lifetime, still has the authority of direct family knowledge.
Cheers, -----Brad
Brad,
Thanks for the link to the Ancestor article. I had not seen it, and it provides some names of children of John Musgrave (d. 1607) of Catterlen that I did not have. I notice the article says that he was "said to have been attainted for a felony shortly before his death" but in fact he was not just attainted but hanged for taking part in the robbery of the royal deputy receiver.
At least two of his children listed, Julian (bapt 1593) and William (bapt 1594) , were by his first wife Julian Musgrave. The only other bapt record I have is for Anne (bapt 1599), whose mother was Isabel.

Isabel Musgrave who married John Musgrave of Catterlen and John Vaux could very well have been the granddaughter Isabel mentioned in William Musgrave's 1595 Will. Her father was William's son Thomas who predeceased him. Isabel was not married at the time since her grandfather leaves her 500 pounds for her marriage.

Mary
wjhonson
2021-03-06 21:53:55 UTC
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Post by Brad Verity
The Durham IPM cited above for Thomas Musgrave lists sons William, David, John, Thomas, and Leonard, daughter Elizabeth, and a child with which his wife is pregnant. I suspect the unborn child was Humphrey.
I agree, Mary. The unborn child had to have been Humphrey Musgrave. Some pedigrees give Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533) and Elizabeth Dacre an additional daughter, Isabel Musgrave, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen (d. 1607). But not only is there no mention of a daughter Isabel in Thomas Musgrave's 1533 IPM, it is chronologically impossible for Isabel, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen, to have been a daughter of this couple. For she was still alive in 1641, and separated from her second husband John Vaux, whom she had married in 1610.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Ancestor/BksWAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Musgrave+of+Catterlen&pg=PA58&printsec=frontcover
20 Oct 1598 Scrope to Cecil- John Musgrave is not cousin german to Francis Dacre, but his grandmother was a base dau of the Lord Thos Dacre, grandfather of Francis Dacre; Umphrey Musgrave, a gent. of good estimation in our country, uncle to this John Musgrave, sometime deputy to [Scrope's] father, upon whom this John Musgrave did depend, served and thereby was trained up in service upon the Borders; he had always a disliking of Francis Dacre and were in displeasure until death of said Umphrey Musgrave; Musgraves were always against the Dacres; he [John] married Mr. Dudley's dau, but I know Mr. Dudley to be honest and sound, heir to Richard Dudley and nephew? to both John and Thos Dudley gents; refs to Dudley's disinherited Jesuit son; Dudley matched his younger son with Mr. John Middleton's dau; re John's ability, he is of the house of Edenhall, the best house of the Musgraves, of a younger brother; has a customary living of 40 l per annum
Thank you for sharing the above letter from Lord Scrope. It is strong - I would argue definitive - evidence that Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533), was indeed the illegitimate (or "base," as Scrope describes her) daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland. In 1598, Elizabeth had grandchildren, possibly even a son, still living, so this evidence, though not contemporary to Elizabeth's lifetime, still has the authority of direct family knowledge.
Cheers, -----Brad
Brad,
Thanks for the link to the Ancestor article. I had not seen it, and it provides some names of children of John Musgrave (d. 1607) of Catterlen that I did not have. I notice the article says that he was "said to have been attainted for a felony shortly before his death" but in fact he was not just attainted but hanged for taking part in the robbery of the royal deputy receiver.
At least two of his children listed, Julian (bapt 1593) and William (bapt 1594) , were by his first wife Julian Musgrave. The only other bapt record I have is for Anne (bapt 1599), whose mother was Isabel.
Isabel Musgrave who married John Musgrave of Catterlen and John Vaux could very well have been the granddaughter Isabel mentioned in William Musgrave's 1595 Will. Her father was William's son Thomas who predeceased him. Isabel was not married at the time since her grandfather leaves her 500 pounds for her marriage.
Mary
It would though make some sense if the Leonard of Cumcatch, were the intervening generation there.
That is, Leonard son of Thomas, and then Thomas son of Leonard.
Matthew Connolly
2021-03-06 22:58:57 UTC
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Post by Brad Verity
The Durham IPM cited above for Thomas Musgrave lists sons William, David, John, Thomas, and Leonard, daughter Elizabeth, and a child with which his wife is pregnant. I suspect the unborn child was Humphrey.
I agree, Mary. The unborn child had to have been Humphrey Musgrave. Some pedigrees give Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533) and Elizabeth Dacre an additional daughter, Isabel Musgrave, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen (d. 1607). But not only is there no mention of a daughter Isabel in Thomas Musgrave's 1533 IPM, it is chronologically impossible for Isabel, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen, to have been a daughter of this couple. For she was still alive in 1641, and separated from her second husband John Vaux, whom she had married in 1610.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Ancestor/BksWAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Musgrave+of+Catterlen&pg=PA58&printsec=frontcover
20 Oct 1598 Scrope to Cecil- John Musgrave is not cousin german to Francis Dacre, but his grandmother was a base dau of the Lord Thos Dacre, grandfather of Francis Dacre; Umphrey Musgrave, a gent. of good estimation in our country, uncle to this John Musgrave, sometime deputy to [Scrope's] father, upon whom this John Musgrave did depend, served and thereby was trained up in service upon the Borders; he had always a disliking of Francis Dacre and were in displeasure until death of said Umphrey Musgrave; Musgraves were always against the Dacres; he [John] married Mr. Dudley's dau, but I know Mr. Dudley to be honest and sound, heir to Richard Dudley and nephew? to both John and Thos Dudley gents; refs to Dudley's disinherited Jesuit son; Dudley matched his younger son with Mr. John Middleton's dau; re John's ability, he is of the house of Edenhall, the best house of the Musgraves, of a younger brother; has a customary living of 40 l per annum
Thank you for sharing the above letter from Lord Scrope. It is strong - I would argue definitive - evidence that Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533), was indeed the illegitimate (or "base," as Scrope describes her) daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland. In 1598, Elizabeth had grandchildren, possibly even a son, still living, so this evidence, though not contemporary to Elizabeth's lifetime, still has the authority of direct family knowledge.
Cheers, -----Brad
Brad,
Thanks for the link to the Ancestor article. I had not seen it, and it provides some names of children of John Musgrave (d. 1607) of Catterlen that I did not have. I notice the article says that he was "said to have been attainted for a felony shortly before his death" but in fact he was not just attainted but hanged for taking part in the robbery of the royal deputy receiver.
At least two of his children listed, Julian (bapt 1593) and William (bapt 1594) , were by his first wife Julian Musgrave. The only other bapt record I have is for Anne (bapt 1599), whose mother was Isabel.
Isabel Musgrave who married John Musgrave of Catterlen and John Vaux could very well have been the granddaughter Isabel mentioned in William Musgrave's 1595 Will. Her father was William's son Thomas who predeceased him. Isabel was not married at the time since her grandfather leaves her 500 pounds for her marriage.
Mary
Do you happen to know anything about who this Thomas Musgrave (the predeceased son of William who d.1597) married, I don’t think I’ve ever seen her named? It was my understanding that his daughter Isabel was indeed the one who married Musgrave and Vaux (I have a descent from the latter marriage), I’ll see if I can locate the references.

-Matthew
Matthew Connolly
2021-03-06 23:37:13 UTC
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Post by Matthew Connolly
Post by Brad Verity
The Durham IPM cited above for Thomas Musgrave lists sons William, David, John, Thomas, and Leonard, daughter Elizabeth, and a child with which his wife is pregnant. I suspect the unborn child was Humphrey.
I agree, Mary. The unborn child had to have been Humphrey Musgrave. Some pedigrees give Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533) and Elizabeth Dacre an additional daughter, Isabel Musgrave, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen (d. 1607). But not only is there no mention of a daughter Isabel in Thomas Musgrave's 1533 IPM, it is chronologically impossible for Isabel, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen, to have been a daughter of this couple. For she was still alive in 1641, and separated from her second husband John Vaux, whom she had married in 1610.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Ancestor/BksWAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Musgrave+of+Catterlen&pg=PA58&printsec=frontcover
20 Oct 1598 Scrope to Cecil- John Musgrave is not cousin german to Francis Dacre, but his grandmother was a base dau of the Lord Thos Dacre, grandfather of Francis Dacre; Umphrey Musgrave, a gent. of good estimation in our country, uncle to this John Musgrave, sometime deputy to [Scrope's] father, upon whom this John Musgrave did depend, served and thereby was trained up in service upon the Borders; he had always a disliking of Francis Dacre and were in displeasure until death of said Umphrey Musgrave; Musgraves were always against the Dacres; he [John] married Mr. Dudley's dau, but I know Mr. Dudley to be honest and sound, heir to Richard Dudley and nephew? to both John and Thos Dudley gents; refs to Dudley's disinherited Jesuit son; Dudley matched his younger son with Mr. John Middleton's dau; re John's ability, he is of the house of Edenhall, the best house of the Musgraves, of a younger brother; has a customary living of 40 l per annum
Thank you for sharing the above letter from Lord Scrope. It is strong - I would argue definitive - evidence that Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533), was indeed the illegitimate (or "base," as Scrope describes her) daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland. In 1598, Elizabeth had grandchildren, possibly even a son, still living, so this evidence, though not contemporary to Elizabeth's lifetime, still has the authority of direct family knowledge.
Cheers, -----Brad
Brad,
Thanks for the link to the Ancestor article. I had not seen it, and it provides some names of children of John Musgrave (d. 1607) of Catterlen that I did not have. I notice the article says that he was "said to have been attainted for a felony shortly before his death" but in fact he was not just attainted but hanged for taking part in the robbery of the royal deputy receiver.
At least two of his children listed, Julian (bapt 1593) and William (bapt 1594) , were by his first wife Julian Musgrave. The only other bapt record I have is for Anne (bapt 1599), whose mother was Isabel.
Isabel Musgrave who married John Musgrave of Catterlen and John Vaux could very well have been the granddaughter Isabel mentioned in William Musgrave's 1595 Will. Her father was William's son Thomas who predeceased him. Isabel was not married at the time since her grandfather leaves her 500 pounds for her marriage.
Mary
Do you happen to know anything about who this Thomas Musgrave (the predeceased son of William who d.1597) married, I don’t think I’ve ever seen her named? It was my understanding that his daughter Isabel was indeed the one who married Musgrave and Vaux (I have a descent from the latter marriage), I’ll see if I can locate the references.
-Matthew
Isabel’s own account of her parentage is here: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DjTvhv9epUYC&pg=PR7&dq=seventh+report+of+the+royal+commission+on+historical+manuscripts&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn1tvM6JzvAhVSY8AKHcgdC-0Q6AEwBHoECAQQAw#v=onepage&q=%20Isabel%20Vaux&f=false
wjhonson
2021-03-07 04:45:34 UTC
Permalink
I have corrected your link as to Isabel Vaux's depositions here

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Report/DjTvhv9epUYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA41
Mary Morgan
2021-03-07 16:24:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Connolly
Post by Brad Verity
The Durham IPM cited above for Thomas Musgrave lists sons William, David, John, Thomas, and Leonard, daughter Elizabeth, and a child with which his wife is pregnant. I suspect the unborn child was Humphrey.
I agree, Mary. The unborn child had to have been Humphrey Musgrave. Some pedigrees give Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533) and Elizabeth Dacre an additional daughter, Isabel Musgrave, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen (d. 1607). But not only is there no mention of a daughter Isabel in Thomas Musgrave's 1533 IPM, it is chronologically impossible for Isabel, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen, to have been a daughter of this couple. For she was still alive in 1641, and separated from her second husband John Vaux, whom she had married in 1610.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Ancestor/BksWAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Musgrave+of+Catterlen&pg=PA58&printsec=frontcover
20 Oct 1598 Scrope to Cecil- John Musgrave is not cousin german to Francis Dacre, but his grandmother was a base dau of the Lord Thos Dacre, grandfather of Francis Dacre; Umphrey Musgrave, a gent. of good estimation in our country, uncle to this John Musgrave, sometime deputy to [Scrope's] father, upon whom this John Musgrave did depend, served and thereby was trained up in service upon the Borders; he had always a disliking of Francis Dacre and were in displeasure until death of said Umphrey Musgrave; Musgraves were always against the Dacres; he [John] married Mr. Dudley's dau, but I know Mr. Dudley to be honest and sound, heir to Richard Dudley and nephew? to both John and Thos Dudley gents; refs to Dudley's disinherited Jesuit son; Dudley matched his younger son with Mr. John Middleton's dau; re John's ability, he is of the house of Edenhall, the best house of the Musgraves, of a younger brother; has a customary living of 40 l per annum
Thank you for sharing the above letter from Lord Scrope. It is strong - I would argue definitive - evidence that Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533), was indeed the illegitimate (or "base," as Scrope describes her) daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland. In 1598, Elizabeth had grandchildren, possibly even a son, still living, so this evidence, though not contemporary to Elizabeth's lifetime, still has the authority of direct family knowledge.
Cheers, -----Brad
Brad,
Thanks for the link to the Ancestor article. I had not seen it, and it provides some names of children of John Musgrave (d. 1607) of Catterlen that I did not have. I notice the article says that he was "said to have been attainted for a felony shortly before his death" but in fact he was not just attainted but hanged for taking part in the robbery of the royal deputy receiver.
At least two of his children listed, Julian (bapt 1593) and William (bapt 1594) , were by his first wife Julian Musgrave. The only other bapt record I have is for Anne (bapt 1599), whose mother was Isabel.
Isabel Musgrave who married John Musgrave of Catterlen and John Vaux could very well have been the granddaughter Isabel mentioned in William Musgrave's 1595 Will. Her father was William's son Thomas who predeceased him. Isabel was not married at the time since her grandfather leaves her 500 pounds for her marriage.
Mary
Do you happen to know anything about who this Thomas Musgrave (the predeceased son of William who d.1597) married, I don’t think I’ve ever seen her named? It was my understanding that his daughter Isabel was indeed the one who married Musgrave and Vaux (I have a descent from the latter marriage), I’ll see if I can locate the references.
-Matthew
Matthew,
I have not found any reference to the wife of this Thomas Musgrave. I rechecked my copy of the Will of his father William Musgrave, but the Will does not mention Thomas's wife.
Mary
Matthew Connolly
2021-03-07 20:04:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mary Morgan
Post by Matthew Connolly
Post by Brad Verity
The Durham IPM cited above for Thomas Musgrave lists sons William, David, John, Thomas, and Leonard, daughter Elizabeth, and a child with which his wife is pregnant. I suspect the unborn child was Humphrey.
I agree, Mary. The unborn child had to have been Humphrey Musgrave. Some pedigrees give Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533) and Elizabeth Dacre an additional daughter, Isabel Musgrave, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen (d. 1607). But not only is there no mention of a daughter Isabel in Thomas Musgrave's 1533 IPM, it is chronologically impossible for Isabel, wife of John Musgrave of Catterlen, to have been a daughter of this couple. For she was still alive in 1641, and separated from her second husband John Vaux, whom she had married in 1610.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Ancestor/BksWAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Musgrave+of+Catterlen&pg=PA58&printsec=frontcover
20 Oct 1598 Scrope to Cecil- John Musgrave is not cousin german to Francis Dacre, but his grandmother was a base dau of the Lord Thos Dacre, grandfather of Francis Dacre; Umphrey Musgrave, a gent. of good estimation in our country, uncle to this John Musgrave, sometime deputy to [Scrope's] father, upon whom this John Musgrave did depend, served and thereby was trained up in service upon the Borders; he had always a disliking of Francis Dacre and were in displeasure until death of said Umphrey Musgrave; Musgraves were always against the Dacres; he [John] married Mr. Dudley's dau, but I know Mr. Dudley to be honest and sound, heir to Richard Dudley and nephew? to both John and Thos Dudley gents; refs to Dudley's disinherited Jesuit son; Dudley matched his younger son with Mr. John Middleton's dau; re John's ability, he is of the house of Edenhall, the best house of the Musgraves, of a younger brother; has a customary living of 40 l per annum
Thank you for sharing the above letter from Lord Scrope. It is strong - I would argue definitive - evidence that Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Musgrave of Hayton (d. 1533), was indeed the illegitimate (or "base," as Scrope describes her) daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre of Gilsland. In 1598, Elizabeth had grandchildren, possibly even a son, still living, so this evidence, though not contemporary to Elizabeth's lifetime, still has the authority of direct family knowledge.
Cheers, -----Brad
Brad,
Thanks for the link to the Ancestor article. I had not seen it, and it provides some names of children of John Musgrave (d. 1607) of Catterlen that I did not have. I notice the article says that he was "said to have been attainted for a felony shortly before his death" but in fact he was not just attainted but hanged for taking part in the robbery of the royal deputy receiver.
At least two of his children listed, Julian (bapt 1593) and William (bapt 1594) , were by his first wife Julian Musgrave. The only other bapt record I have is for Anne (bapt 1599), whose mother was Isabel.
Isabel Musgrave who married John Musgrave of Catterlen and John Vaux could very well have been the granddaughter Isabel mentioned in William Musgrave's 1595 Will. Her father was William's son Thomas who predeceased him. Isabel was not married at the time since her grandfather leaves her 500 pounds for her marriage.
Mary
Do you happen to know anything about who this Thomas Musgrave (the predeceased son of William who d.1597) married, I don’t think I’ve ever seen her named? It was my understanding that his daughter Isabel was indeed the one who married Musgrave and Vaux (I have a descent from the latter marriage), I’ll see if I can locate the references.
-Matthew
Matthew,
I have not found any reference to the wife of this Thomas Musgrave. I rechecked my copy of the Will of his father William Musgrave, but the Will does not mention Thomas's wife.
Mary
Thanks Mary, she doesn’t seem to have left much trace - it may be that she died young, or (if she survived) remarried into another family, so was only briefly a Musgrave.
John Higgins
2021-03-02 22:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by wjhonson
On Tues
Post by wjhonson
That she was illegitimate the following, reposted from archives
Subj: Re: Anthony Browne and his wife Magdalen
Date: 9/23/05 11:47:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time
...Sources [which] give Elizabeth Dacre as an illegitimate daughter :P.W. Hasler's The History of Parliament: The House of Commons 1558-1603 under the entry for William Musgrave. Hasler gives his sources as Hutchinson's History of Cumberland and Req. 2/265/69. I am in the process of obtaining this document from the Archives, but I live in the U.S. and the process is rather slow. An article in the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society Transactions v. 13ns by B.G.R. Hale also discusses the origins of Elizabeth (Dacre) Musgrave, calling her an illegitimate daughter of Lord Thomas. There are other sources, as well.
And for those who do not have access to ODNB, the older DNB page is here
https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofnati28stepuoft/page/359/mode/1up?ref=ol&view=theater&q=hutton
Umm....neither ODNB nor the old DNB addresses the issue of whether Elizabeth Dacre (mother of Elizabeth Musgrave) was illegitimate. So...why bring this up?
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