Discussion:
Sir Roland de Velville
(too old to reply)
f***@gmail.com
2016-08-19 05:55:36 UTC
Permalink
I originally sent this request to Leo van de Pas, but sadly he passed away before seeing it.

My wife has a line to Sir Roland. I find from the Wikipedia article on him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_de_Velville that it is suggested that he is illegitimate issue of King Henry VII of England. The circumstances described in the article are interesting and I wonder if any more is known on the matter.

Hope someone can help.

Regards,

Ian Fettes
taf
2016-08-19 07:31:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@gmail.com
My wife has a line to Sir Roland. I find from the Wikipedia article on him
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_de_Velville that it is suggested that
he is illegitimate issue of King Henry VII of England. The circumstances
described in the article are interesting and I wonder if any more is known
on the matter.
I am not familiar with the case, but I never found such arguments convincing. It says he was a favorite of Henry VII of unknown parentage, and thus a possible or likely illegitimate son of the king. How does one justify such an argument from ignorance - we don't know who his parents were, so he must be the king's bastard? And was it completely impossible for a king to take as protege someone who was not his bastard?

There may be some evidence of which I am unaware, but at least as summarized on the Wikipedia page this doesn't rise above the level of irresponsible and groundless wishful thinking, let alone being "likely".

taf
John Higgins
2016-08-19 21:52:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@gmail.com
I originally sent this request to Leo van de Pas, but sadly he passed away before seeing it.
My wife has a line to Sir Roland. I find from the Wikipedia article on him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_de_Velville that it is suggested that he is illegitimate issue of King Henry VII of England. The circumstances described in the article are interesting and I wonder if any more is known on the matter.
Hope someone can help.
Regards,
Ian Fettes
Ian, this site may be worth a read....you can draw your own conclusions. :-)

http://www.happywarrior.org/genealogy/roland.htm
taf
2016-08-20 01:29:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Higgins
Post by f***@gmail.com
I originally sent this request to Leo van de Pas, but sadly he passed away before seeing it.
My wife has a line to Sir Roland. I find from the Wikipedia article on him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_de_Velville that it is suggested that he is illegitimate issue of King Henry VII of England. The circumstances described in the article are interesting and I wonder if any more is known on the matter.
Hope someone can help.
Regards,
Ian Fettes
Ian, this site may be worth a read....you can draw your own conclusions. :-)
http://www.happywarrior.org/genealogy/roland.htm
Well, I see it as a mass of special pleading and begging the question. Apparently there is a statement that he came from a kingly line, with the blood of an earl, and that somehow proves he was Henry VII's bastard "by process of elimination"? And much is made of the lack of evidence that he was not Henry's son (except for numerous coats of arms that bear no resemblance to anything used by Henry) - this is not how it works.

I see no reason to view him other than as a member of some regional middling Breton noble family claiming distant ties to royalty and more recent ones to counts (the continental equivalent of earls), whom Henry picked up as page while in Brittany and who became his protege.

taf
f***@gmail.com
2016-08-20 07:26:52 UTC
Permalink
Thanks John and Todd. It is quite clear that this is not a line I need pursue any further.
wjhonson
2016-08-26 19:11:37 UTC
Permalink
DR addressed this as well some time ago

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2007-09/1188880539

However he is not correct that "Roberts" manufactured a claim that Roland was given the "moiety" of Tudor lands in Penmynydd

This claim is older, see

https://archive.org/stream/ycymmrodor40cymmuoft#page/2/mode/2up/search/Berain

in Y Cymmrodor (1929) although they do not give a footnoted source for that
Douglas Richardson
2016-08-27 22:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

I've copied below my current file account of Sir Roland Veleville (died 1535).

The well known Tudor historian, Stanley Bertram Chrimes, in his book, Henry VII (1972), pg. 67 states the following:

“The allegation has often been made that Sir Roland de Veleville, appointed constable of Beaumaris by Henry VIII, was a bastard son of Henry VII, begotten in Brittany, appears untenable.” END OF QUOTE.

Having reviewed all the evidence once again this past week, I concur with Mr. Chrimes. The allegation that Sir Roland Veleville was an illegitimate son of King Henry VII is untenable.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + +

ROLAND VELEVILLE(or VIELLEVILLE) alias BRITTANY, Knt., of Westminster, Middlesex and Beaumaris, Anglesey, Wales, king’s servant, Constable of Beaumaris Castle. He served in Sir John Cheyne’s retinue in the expedition to Brittany in 1489. He is probably to be identified with the “Roland de Bella Vill” who served as an esquire in the army which King Henry VII took to France in the autumn of 1492. He was granted an annuity of £20 for life in 1493, and, in 1496, a further annuity of 40 marks. He was knighted at the Battle of Blackheath in June 1497. In 1512 he was granted letters of denization, he being a native of Brittany. He took part in the French campaign in 1513. He attended the king at the Field of Cloth of Gold in 1520. He married before 6 July 1528 AGNES FERCH GWILYM FYCHAN AP GWILYM, widow of Robert Dowding (living 1508, dead before June 1516), of Beaumaris, and daughter of Gwilym Fychan ap Gwilym (otherwise known as William Griffith), Marshal of the King’s Hall, deputy to various Chamberlains of North Wales, by his 2nd wife (or mistress), Gwenllian ferch Iorwerth Ddu ap Dafydd. She was the half-sister of William Griffith, K.B., of Penrhyn, Caernarvonshire, Chamberlain of North Wales [see COYTEMORE 15]. They had two daughters, Grace (wife of William Glynn) and Jane (wife of Tudur ap Robert Fychan of Berain). In 1526 Roland and Agnes quitclaimed two shops in Beaumaris, Anglesey. He was granted parcels of land in the ancestral Tudor estate of Penmynyd, Anglesey by Owen ap John ab Owen ap Tudor Fychan. SIR ROLAND VELEVILLE left a will dated 6 June 1535, proved 13 June 1535, requesting burial in the monastery of the Friars Minor of Llanfaes. His widow, Agnes, left a will dated 16 Dec. 1542, proved 15 Dec. 1543.

References:

Dwnn, Heraldic Vis. of Wales 2 (1846): 131, footnote 4 (author identifies Sir Roland Velville as “natural son of Hen. 7.”). Shaw, Knights of England 2 (1906): 30. Broadley, Doctor Johnson & Mrs. Thrale (1910): 280–281. Griffith, Peds. of Anglesey & Carnarvonshire Fams. (1914): I–II, 26 (Carreglwyd ped.), 106 (Plas Penmynydd ped.) (author identifies Sir Rowland Vielleville, Kt as an illegitimate son of King Henry VII), 184–185 (Griffith ped.), 223 (Berain ped.), 236, 270 (Lleuar ped.). Welsh Hist. Rev. 3 (1966–67): 287–289; 15 (1991): 351–367 (Roland Veleville is described as “reputed base son of Henry VII” in Thomas Pennant Tour of Wales 2 (1783): 244–245; author cites letter dated 1636/7 written by John Salusbury who states: “… and whose sone Veleville was, I doubt not you have heard”; also notes that Veleville was referred to as a “man of a kingly line” and “of earl’s blood” in an elegy composed on Sir Roland’s death in 1535 by the Anglesey bard, Dafydd Alaw.). Chrimes, Henry VII (1972): 67 (“The allegation has often been made that Sir Roland de Veleville, appointed constable of Beaumaris by Henry VIII, was a bastard son of Henry VII, begotten in Brittany, appears untenable.”). Wagner, English Gen. (1972): 240. Bartrum Welsh Gens. 1400–1500 8 (1983): 1265 [Marchudd 6 (B1): ancestry of Agnes/Annes, wife of Roland Veleville [Britain]; author identifies Agnes as the daughter of William Fychan ap Gwilym, by his mistress (not wife), Gwenllian f. Iorwerth], 1284 [Marchudd 13(A): Jane, wife of Tudur ap Robert of Blaenau, is erroneously assigned as daughter of Owen Tudor and Queen Katherine of France, cites Harleian MSS 1974, modern folio 111 (which MS dates pre-1631); Bartrum “cancels” this placement of Jane in his Adds. & Corrs., 3rd List (2002), realizing she is doubtless the same woman as Jane, daughter of Sir Roland Veleville]. Griffiths, Making of the Tudor Dynasty (1985): 108, 174–175, 192. National Lib. of Wales Jour. 25 (1988): 387–398. English Hist. Rev. 108 (1993): 22–49. ODNB (2004): (biog. of Katheryn of Berain) (“It was firmly, if incorrectly, believed that Sir Roland [de Veleville] was the son of Henry Tudor (later Henry VII) and a Breton lady; he was knighted at the coronation of Henry VIII in 1509, appointed constable of Beaumaris Castle, and given the king’s moiety of the Tudor property in Penmynydd together with other lands in Anglesey.”) (article available at www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/67988). Breverton, Everything you ever wanted to know about the Tudors but were afraid to ask (2014). Online resource: www.happywarrior.org/genealogy/roland.htm (author cites e-mail communication dated 2011 of Gruffydd Aled Williams, Emeritus Professor of Welsh at Aberystwyth University who cites an undated poem by Robert Evans in praise of Sir Roland de Veleville’s great-grandson, John Salisbury of Lleweni, which poem states that Sir Roland was of “the lineage of kings” and that he was “purely descended from the ancient blood of Brittany.”).
Hans Vogels
2016-08-28 08:04:18 UTC
Permalink
If the statement Stanley Bertram Chrimes provides in his book from 1972 is the only thing he provides, he only voices his opinion. A personal opinion from the late 20th century does not make the evidence weaker or stronger. It would be more interesting if an echo from the times of Henry VII or Henry VIII would speak out this clearly.

Hans Vogels
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
I've copied below my current file account of Sir Roland Veleville (died 1535).
“The allegation has often been made that Sir Roland de Veleville, appointed constable of Beaumaris by Henry VIII, was a bastard son of Henry VII, begotten in Brittany, appears untenable.” END OF QUOTE.
Having reviewed all the evidence once again this past week, I concur with Mr. Chrimes. The allegation that Sir Roland Veleville was an illegitimate son of King Henry VII is untenable.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + +
ROLAND VELEVILLE(or VIELLEVILLE) alias BRITTANY, Knt., of Westminster, Middlesex and Beaumaris, Anglesey, Wales, king’s servant, Constable of Beaumaris Castle. He served in Sir John Cheyne’s retinue in the expedition to Brittany in 1489. He is probably to be identified with the “Roland de Bella Vill” who served as an esquire in the army which King Henry VII took to France in the autumn of 1492. He was granted an annuity of £20 for life in 1493, and, in 1496, a further annuity of 40 marks. He was knighted at the Battle of Blackheath in June 1497. In 1512 he was granted letters of denization, he being a native of Brittany. He took part in the French campaign in 1513. He attended the king at the Field of Cloth of Gold in 1520. He married before 6 July 1528 AGNES FERCH GWILYM FYCHAN AP GWILYM, widow of Robert Dowding (living 1508, dead before June 1516), of Beaumaris, and daughter of Gwilym Fychan ap Gwilym (otherwise known as William Griffith), Marshal of the King’s Hall, deputy to various Chamberlains of North Wales, by his 2nd wife (or mistress), Gwenllian ferch Iorwerth Ddu ap Dafydd. She was the half-sister of William Griffith, K.B., of Penrhyn, Caernarvonshire, Chamberlain of North Wales [see COYTEMORE 15]. They had two daughters, Grace (wife of William Glynn) and Jane (wife of Tudur ap Robert Fychan of Berain). In 1526 Roland and Agnes quitclaimed two shops in Beaumaris, Anglesey. He was granted parcels of land in the ancestral Tudor estate of Penmynyd, Anglesey by Owen ap John ab Owen ap Tudor Fychan. SIR ROLAND VELEVILLE left a will dated 6 June 1535, proved 13 June 1535, requesting burial in the monastery of the Friars Minor of Llanfaes. His widow, Agnes, left a will dated 16 Dec. 1542, proved 15 Dec. 1543.
Dwnn, Heraldic Vis. of Wales 2 (1846): 131, footnote 4 (author identifies Sir Roland Velville as “natural son of Hen. 7.”). Shaw, Knights of England 2 (1906): 30. Broadley, Doctor Johnson & Mrs. Thrale (1910): 280–281. Griffith, Peds. of Anglesey & Carnarvonshire Fams. (1914): I–II, 26 (Carreglwyd ped.), 106 (Plas Penmynydd ped.) (author identifies Sir Rowland Vielleville, Kt as an illegitimate son of King Henry VII), 184–185 (Griffith ped.), 223 (Berain ped.), 236, 270 (Lleuar ped.). Welsh Hist. Rev. 3 (1966–67): 287–289; 15 (1991): 351–367 (Roland Veleville is described as “reputed base son of Henry VII” in Thomas Pennant Tour of Wales 2 (1783): 244–245; author cites letter dated 1636/7 written by John Salusbury who states: “… and whose sone Veleville was, I doubt not you have heard”; also notes that Veleville was referred to as a “man of a kingly line” and “of earl’s blood” in an elegy composed on Sir Roland’s death in 1535 by the Anglesey bard, Dafydd Alaw.). Chrimes, Henry VII (1972): 67 (“The allegation has often been made that Sir Roland de Veleville, appointed constable of Beaumaris by Henry VIII, was a bastard son of Henry VII, begotten in Brittany, appears untenable.”). Wagner, English Gen. (1972): 240. Bartrum Welsh Gens. 1400–1500 8 (1983): 1265 [Marchudd 6 (B1): ancestry of Agnes/Annes, wife of Roland Veleville [Britain]; author identifies Agnes as the daughter of William Fychan ap Gwilym, by his mistress (not wife), Gwenllian f. Iorwerth], 1284 [Marchudd 13(A): Jane, wife of Tudur ap Robert of Blaenau, is erroneously assigned as daughter of Owen Tudor and Queen Katherine of France, cites Harleian MSS 1974, modern folio 111 (which MS dates pre-1631); Bartrum “cancels” this placement of Jane in his Adds. & Corrs., 3rd List (2002), realizing she is doubtless the same woman as Jane, daughter of Sir Roland Veleville]. Griffiths, Making of the Tudor Dynasty (1985): 108, 174–175, 192. National Lib. of Wales Jour. 25 (1988): 387–398. English Hist. Rev. 108 (1993): 22–49. ODNB (2004): (biog. of Katheryn of Berain) (“It was firmly, if incorrectly, believed that Sir Roland [de Veleville] was the son of Henry Tudor (later Henry VII) and a Breton lady; he was knighted at the coronation of Henry VIII in 1509, appointed constable of Beaumaris Castle, and given the king’s moiety of the Tudor property in Penmynydd together with other lands in Anglesey.”) (article available at www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/67988). Breverton, Everything you ever wanted to know about the Tudors but were afraid to ask (2014). Online resource: www.happywarrior.org/genealogy/roland.htm (author cites e-mail communication dated 2011 of Gruffydd Aled Williams, Emeritus Professor of Welsh at Aberystwyth University who cites an undated poem by Robert Evans in praise of Sir Roland de Veleville’s great-grandson, John Salisbury of Lleweni, which poem states that Sir Roland was of “the lineage of kings” and that he was “purely descended from the ancient blood of Brittany.”).
wjhonson
2016-08-29 15:31:49 UTC
Permalink
Do you have a source which gives Agnes this long odd name? Or do all the sources only call her Agnes Griffith?
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...