Another early Braose discovered.

Post by Doug Thompson
William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not been
noted before.
I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice Lees’
book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth century. It is
an agreement between the Templars and the monks of Sele Priory
concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated 1181 in the
charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the brother of William
and also William’s son Philip.
However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether the
William in question is William(II) or William (III). William(II) died
just around this time.
Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while William
(III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat answer is
that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a brother for William
(III). So, without knowing which William is concerned in the charter,
this is evidence for the existence of this son!
See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html

William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca 1140
here (pp 692-693 no. 23):
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego Willelmus
dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii Willelmi ... Hanc
confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ... ad hoc autem testes
idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum fratrem meum").

Peter Stewart

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Doug Thompson

2024-04-20 09:28:21 UTC

Post by Doug Thompson
William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not been
noted before.
I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice Lees’
book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth century. It is
an agreement between the Templars and the monks of Sele Priory
concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated 1181 in the
charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the brother of
William and also William’s son Philip.
However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether the
William in question is William(II) or William (III). William(II) died
just around this time.
Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat
answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a brother
for William (III). So, without knowing which William is concerned in
the charter, this is evidence for the existence of this son!
See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html

William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca 1140
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego Willelmus
dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii Willelmi ... Hanc
confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ... ad hoc autem testes
idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum fratrem meum").
Peter Stewart

Thanks Peter. I don't know how I have missed that one before! I thought
I knew all these St Florent documents well.

Doug

Peter Stewart

2024-04-21 00:49:50 UTC

Post by Doug Thompson
William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not been
noted before.
I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice Lees’
book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth century. It
is an agreement between the Templars and the monks of Sele Priory
concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated 1181 in the
charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the brother of
William and also William’s son Philip.
However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether the
William in question is William(II) or William (III). William(II) died
just around this time.
Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat
answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a brother
for William (III). So, without knowing which William is concerned in
the charter, this is evidence for the existence of this son!
See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html

William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca 1140
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego
Willelmus dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii Willelmi
... Hanc confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ... ad hoc
autem testes idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum fratrem
meum").
Peter Stewart

Thanks Peter. I don't know how I have missed that one before! I thought
I knew all these St Florent documents well.

The dating to ca 1140 by Marchegay is probably too early by a decade or
so - the prior of Sele at the time is named as Daniel, who occurs in a
charter dated 1153 and was dead by 1169 according to *Heads of Religious
Houses*, second edition (2001) vol 1 p. 108. Amélie Rigollet in
*Mobilités du lignage anglo-normand de Briouze (mi-XIe siècle-1326)*
(2021) placed the letter ca 1153 on the basis of the charter dated in
that year, another donation at Annington, that was confirmed by William
II. Since Berta's parents were not married until 1121, a concession by
her younger son Philip is more likely to have been made ca 1153 that ca
1140.

Philip occurs in other records cited by Rigollet:

Michaelmas 1193 - Pipe Roll, ed Doris Stenton (1927) pp. 86-87 (holding
from the king at Stanford)

12 September 1220 - his widow Eve and her second husband William of Naas
made a fine of 100 marks for Philip's manor of Grene in Ireland,
*Calendar of the Fine Rolls of the reign of Henry III* (London, 2007),
vol. 1, p. 164, no. 263, also here:
https://finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_012.html and here:
https://archive.org/details/cu31924091754428/page/147/mode/1up.

Peter Stewart

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Doug Thompson

2024-04-21 14:12:45 UTC

Post by Doug Thompson
William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not been
noted before.
I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice
Lees’ book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth
century. It is an agreement between the Templars and the monks of
Sele Priory concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated
1181 in the charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the
brother of William and also William’s son Philip.
However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether
the William in question is William(II) or William (III). William(II)
died just around this time.
Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat
answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a brother
for William (III). So, without knowing which William is concerned in
the charter, this is evidence for the existence of this son!
See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html

William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca 1140
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego
Willelmus dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii Willelmi
... Hanc confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ... ad hoc
autem testes idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum fratrem
meum").
Peter Stewart

Thanks Peter. I don't know how I have missed that one before! I
thought I knew all these St Florent documents well.

The dating to ca 1140 by Marchegay is probably too early by a decade or
so - the prior of Sele at the time is named as Daniel, who occurs in a
charter dated 1153 and was dead by 1169 according to *Heads of Religious
Houses*, second edition (2001) vol 1 p. 108. Amélie Rigollet in
*Mobilités du lignage anglo-normand de Briouze (mi-XIe siècle-1326)*
(2021) placed the letter ca 1153 on the basis of the charter dated in
that year, another donation at Annington, that was confirmed by William
II. Since Berta's parents were not married until 1121, a concession by
her younger son Philip is more likely to have been made ca 1153 that ca
1140.
Michaelmas 1193 - Pipe Roll, ed Doris Stenton (1927) pp. 86-87 (holding
from the king at Stanford)
12 September 1220 - his widow Eve and her second husband William of Naas
made a fine of 100 marks for Philip's manor of Grene in Ireland,
*Calendar of the Fine Rolls of the reign of Henry III* (London, 2007),
https://archive.org/details/cu31924091754428/page/147/mode/1up.
Peter Stewart

Agreed about the uncertain dating by Marchegay, but I thought the
references you give below are to the brother of William II not his son.
Is there any way to know this?

Doug

Peter Stewart

2024-04-21 22:36:55 UTC

Post by Doug Thompson
William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not
been noted before.
I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice
Lees’ book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth
century. It is an agreement between the Templars and the monks of
Sele Priory concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated
1181 in the charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the
brother of William and also William’s son Philip.
However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether
the William in question is William(II) or William (III).
William(II) died just around this time.
Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat
answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a
brother for William (III). So, without knowing which William is
concerned in the charter, this is evidence for the existence of
this son!
See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html

William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego
Willelmus dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii
Willelmi ... Hanc confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ...
ad hoc autem testes idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum
fratrem meum").
Peter Stewart

Thanks Peter. I don't know how I have missed that one before! I
thought I knew all these St Florent documents well.

The dating to ca 1140 by Marchegay is probably too early by a decade
or so - the prior of Sele at the time is named as Daniel, who occurs
in a charter dated 1153 and was dead by 1169 according to *Heads of
Religious Houses*, second edition (2001) vol 1 p. 108. Amélie Rigollet
in *Mobilités du lignage anglo-normand de Briouze (mi-XIe
siècle-1326)* (2021) placed the letter ca 1153 on the basis of the
charter dated in that year, another donation at Annington, that was
confirmed by William II. Since Berta's parents were not married until
1121, a concession by her younger son Philip is more likely to have
been made ca 1153 that ca 1140.
Michaelmas 1193 - Pipe Roll, ed Doris Stenton (1927) pp. 86-87
(holding from the king at Stanford)
12 September 1220 - his widow Eve and her second husband William of
Naas made a fine of 100 marks for Philip's manor of Grene in Ireland,
*Calendar of the Fine Rolls of the reign of Henry III* (London, 2007),
https://finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_012.html and
here: https://archive.org/details/cu31924091754428/page/147/mode/1up.
Peter Stewart

Agreed about the uncertain dating by Marchegay, but I thought the
references you give below are to the brother of William II not his son.
Is there any way to know this?

William II's brother Philip occurs as a witness along with Berta in
William's confirmation of their grandfather's donations dated after 1110
by Marchegay in *Chartes normandes de l'abbaye de Saint-Florent*, p. 689
no. 20b - however, this is again too early unless he meant long after.
Rigollet placed it ca 1130, also too early. Seifrid I was bishop of
Chichester at the time, placing it between 1125 and 1145. Robert was
prior of Sele, placing it within the range of his uncertainly datable
occurrences from 1126/39 to 1135/53. But Berta's parents, as mentioned
before, were married in 1121 so she could not have become William's wife
until ca 1135 at the earliest.

Sine the brother was active apparently as William II's heir presumptive
after his marriage to Berta but evidently before they had a son, i.e. by
around 1140-45 when this confirmation was probably given, this Philip's
own birth cannot have been far from 1130, making it unlikely that his
remarried widow would be obtaining seisin of her dower in his Irish
estate as late as September 1220. William II died in 1192/93 according
to Ralph Turner in ODNB - it seems to me far more plausible that his son
lived until ca 28 years after him leaving a marriageable widow than that
his brother did.

Peter Stewart

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Doug Thompson

2024-04-22 09:23:44 UTC