Father(?) of Carloman

[Flávio Presciliano]

In these books:
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=eh98_Vfi8bwC&pg=PA171&dq=Tassandro&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip9P6_0NzsAhUxHbkGHcG6BT0Q6AEwBHoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=Tassandro&f=false

https://books.google.com.br/books?id=RlZOAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PT6&dq=hasbenio&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiX3oWN0dzsAhUEH7kGHbJDC9wQ6AEwAXoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=tassandro&f=false

https://books.google.com.br/books?id=INPAEGd1gdAC&pg=PA171&dq=Tassandro&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip9P6_0NzsAhUxHbkGHcG6BT0Q6AEwAHoECAQQAg#v=onepage&q=Tassandro&f=false

You can find a list of the duchi di Brabantia/Brabanza/Brabant, I found something about all of them, less the precedents of Pipino Lauden(Pepin, the Old), I only found that his father, Carloman, above him in the list, actually never existed. I would like someone to answer who is the first seven, and if they existed.

[Peter Stewart]

Post by Flávio Presciliano
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=eh98_Vfi8bwC&pg=PA171&dq=Tassandro&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip9P6_0NzsAhUxHbkGHcG6BT0Q6AEwBHoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=Tassandro&f=false
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=RlZOAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PT6&dq=hasbenio&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiX3oWN0dzsAhUEH7kGHbJDC9wQ6AEwAXoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=tassandro&f=false
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=INPAEGd1gdAC&pg=PA171&dq=Tassandro&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip9P6_0NzsAhUxHbkGHcG6BT0Q6AEwAHoECAQQAg#v=onepage&q=Tassandro&f=false
You can find a list of the duchi di Brabantia/Brabanza/Brabant, I found something about all of them, less the precedents of Pipino Lauden(Pepin, the Old), I only found that his father, Carloman, above him in the list, actually never existed. I would like someone to answer who is the first seven, and if they existed.

Where did you find that Pippin of Landen's father "actually never existed"?

It is advisable to look for information in works more recent than the
17th-century publications you have linked to. For starters, there was no
hereditary title as "duke" under the Merovingians or Carolingians -
pre-eminence in the region that (much) later became the duchy of Brabant
does not make someone retrospectively duke of that region.

Peter Stewart

[Flávio Presciliano]

You are right, I don't explain well. I wanted to mean "we don't know who is his father".
And I don't want to really know who were the dukes of Brabant, I was curious about who were the people of the first seven names(because all the rest, before even the creation of the ducky, existed), I assumed that was a mythical family that "ruled" the region(because one of the lists tells Tassandro was a Christian and lived in the III century, in Belgium, seen an interesting story). Anyway, sorry for the confusion, thanks for your time Peter, if you know something about those people I would appreciate, I couldn't find anything with the names.

[Peter Stewart]

Post by Flávio Presciliano
You are right, I don't explain well. I wanted to mean "we don't know who is his father".

I didn't express myself well, as I should have said that Carloman is the
only name given in medieval sources for the father of Pippin of Landen.
This occurs from the 11th or 12th century onwards. The idea that
Carloman should be doubted or rejected as the name of Pippin's father
was put forward by Karl August Eckhardt in 1965, repeated and amplified
by him in 1975. His argument was basically from onomastics turned upside
down and inside out - he arbitrarily considered that the name Carloman
was a fiction invented in order to provide a namesake ancestor for a few
of his descendants. Why this could not have been his real name
transmitted to the same descendants was not explained.

Post by Flávio Presciliano
And I don't want to really know who were the dukes of Brabant, I was curious about who were the people of the first seven names(because all the rest, before even the creation of the ducky, existed), I assumed that was a mythical family that "ruled" the region(because one of the lists tells Tassandro was a Christian and lived in the III century, in Belgium, seen an interesting story). Anyway, sorry for the confusion, thanks for your time Peter, if you know something about those people I would appreciate, I couldn't find anything with the names.

The names on the lists you found occurring before Pippin of Landen's
father Carloman are not a genealogical succession, and not historical
anyway as rulers of Brabant. The earliest documented instance of the
title 'duke of Brabant' dates from 1188. Several sources from the
late-13th century onwards purport to list dukes of 'Lotharingia and
Brabant', in their time was allegedly called 'Austria' (i.e. Austrasia),
but these were written to glorify the lineage of the actual dukes of
Brabant descended from the counts of Louvain and have very little value
for earlier centuries.

There is a so-called 'Vita Pippini ducis' naming Carloman as the father
of 'the first duke' Pippin (of Landen), which was written at Nivelles
abbey as part of a hagiographic dossier for St Gertrude - the date is
uncertain, probably from the 12th or possibly 13th century although
Christian Settipani for no clear reason asserted that it was written
before 1100. In any case, this just gives his name as Pippin's father
and does not call Carloman himself duke. Subsequent sources usually
title Carloman 'prince' and start the 'ducal' series with Pippin as the
first of and his daughter St Begga as the second.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

Post by Peter Stewart
There is a so-called 'Vita Pippini ducis' naming Carloman as the father
of 'the first duke' Pippin (of Landen), which was written at Nivelles
abbey as part of a hagiographic dossier for St Gertrude - the date is
uncertain, probably from the 12th or possibly 13th century although
Christian Settipani for no clear reason asserted that it was written
before 1100.

On checking I need to correct this - Settipani did give a clear reason,
stating that text from the Vita Pippini was copied in the Vita of
Modoald, bishop of Trier - the latter, though he did not explicitly
mention this, was itself written 1107/12.

However, there has been no modern critical edition of the Vita Pippini
or the three-part hagiography of St Gertrude of which it initially
formed a part, and there may be a question over which way the copying
went. In 1902 Sylvain Balau dated the Vita Pippini to the end of the
11th century, on the same rationale as offered by Settipani, but more
recent scholarship has placed its composition later in the 12th century,
i.e. after the Vita Modoaldi - for instance *Index scriptorum operumque
Latino-Belgicorum medii aevi* vol. 3 (1979) and *Bibliotheca sanctorum*
vol. 10 (1968) - while earlier historians had thought it a 13th century
work.

Anyway, it names Carloman as the father of Pippin of Landen with no more
information about the former.

Peter Stewart