Appleton/Tyrell: A Tangle

[Brad Verity]

Per Plantagenet Ancestry (PA3), pp. 38-39 (sub Appleton), Thomas
Appleton, of Dartford, Kent, was married to Joyce Tyrrell, daughter of
Sir Robert Tyrrell & Christian Hartshorn. The source for this was the
Appulton/Apleton pedigree in the 1612 Visitation of Essex (H.S.P. 13,
p. 134), which begins with: "Thomas Appulton of Kente Gentleman =
Joyce, daugh. to Sr Robert Tirrell of Essex Knight, Mr of the horse to
K. H. the 8th." In the 1558 Tirrell/Tyrrell Visitation pedigree (same
volume, pp. 113-115), there is a "Joyce" (unmarried), daughter of "Sr
Robert Tirrell K. 4 sonn = Christian da. to John Harteshorn of
Bedfordshire = Edward Mackwilliams 1 husband." Sir Robert, in turn,
was the 4th son of "Sr Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Knt. 37 H. 6 = Emme da.
to Sr John Marney of Layer Marney in Essex". It is thru Marney/
Sergeaux/Arundel/Despenser that "Joyce Tyrrell", wife of Thomas
Appleton of Dartford, derives a descent from Edward I, and so is
included in PA3.

But Joyce Tyrell Appleton never existed. The will of Thomas Appleton
of Dartford, written on 13 Feb. 1483, and proved 11 May 1485, has been
transcribed by L.L. Duncan, and published online by the Kent
Archaeological Society's Medieval & Tudor Kent P.C.C. Wills project.
The link to it is here:

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk08/144.htm

Appleton mentions his wife Alice, eldest son Roger, second son Thomas,
3rd & youngest son Humphrey, and four daughters: Margery, Anne,
Elizabeth & Katherine. He also makes his wife Alice, "Humfrey
Tyrell", and his brother-in-law Richard Martyn executors. He asks to
be buried in Holy Trinity Church, Dartford, Kent, near his father's
tomb. As he asks his executors to pay one of his mother's bequests,
we know she, like his father, had died by 1483.

Appleton's brother-in-law Richard Martyn of Dartford left a will dated
29 September 1485, and proved 27 October 1488, also transcribed &
published online:

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk08/150.htm

In it Martyn mentions his wife "Agnes".

Finally, the will of Roger Appleton of Dartford, son & heir of Thomas
Appleton, written on 12 April 1529, and proved on 2 July 1529, has
been transcribed here:

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk09/301.htm

In it, the heirs of "Agnes Martyn doughter of Roger Appulton and
Margery his wife decessed" are named in a remainder. So we know that
Agnes wife of Richard Martyn of Dartford, was a daughter of Roger
Appleton of Dartford (father of Thomas Appleton) and Margery his
wife. Curiously, the mother of Thomas Appleton (and wife of Roger
Appleton) is given as "Elizabeth, daughter of Henry Frowick, of London
and South Mimms, Hertfordshire" in PA3. Either this is another error
(in either first name or parentage) stemming from Visitation
pedigrees, or Roger Appleton had an additional wife named Margery, and
Agnes Appleton Martyn was a half-sister of Thomas Appleton. At
another point in the 1529 will, Roger refers to "Agnes Illenden myn
aunte", so its possible that Agnes Appleton married again after Thomas
Martyn's decease in 1488.

Roger Appleton also mentions in his 1529 will, "John Illenden and
Elizabeth his wife my suster". Elizabeth Appleton Illenden is the
only sibling of Roger's mentioned in his will. As she and her heirs
are mentioned in the remainder immediately before the heirs of Agnes
Martyn, it's likely that Elizabeth's husband John Illenden (a member
of the household of Roger Appleton) was the stepson of their aunt
Agnes Appleton Martyn Illenden.

Roger additionally mentions his son and heir Henry and his daughter
Jane, as well as "Goodlake and Henry Edwards my wifs childern" and
"Wynyfride Edwards". These must have been the children of a previous
marriage of Roger's wife Anne Sulliard. This is an addition then to
PA3, which has her as a descendant of Edward I thru Andrew/Stratton/
Luttrell/Courtenay. As there is no other mention of Roger's wife in
his will, and no provision made for her, she most likely predeceased
him. But as he does not make any provision for prayers for her soul
(as he does for his own, and those of his parents and his ancestors
and friends), the other possibility is that he and his wife were
estranged. Roger states that his parents were buried in Holy Trinity
Church, Dartford, and later refers to "Thomas Appulton my father and
Alice his wife", so we know that Alice was indeed Roger's mother and
had died before 1529. Roger names as his executors "John Wentworth
Esquier, Wm Sulyard gentilman and John Rogers my Fermor [i.e., farmer/
tenant] and supervisor Edward Tyrrell Esquier." Of these, John
Wentworth (later knighted) of North Elmsall was the husband of Roger's
daughter Jane, and William Sulyard was presumably related to Roger's
wife (perhaps her half-brother William). Edward Tyrell may have been
a relative as well.

Could Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton (d. by 1485) and mother of Roger
Appleton (b. after 1462, d. 1529), have been the daughter of Sir
Robert Tyrell & Christian Hartishorn (d. 12 January 1506, bur. Grey
Friars church, Colchester, Essex)? No. Christian Hartishorn's first
husband Edward Macwilliam of Sambourne Hall did not died until 1495.

Could Alice have been the daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell by a previous
wife? H.W. King, in the series "Ancient Wills", published in the
'Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society', transcribed the
will, written 30 Dec. 1507, of Sir Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe (Volume
3, pp. 175-177):

http://books.google.ca/books?id=uaQWAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA175&dq=Robert+Tyrell+died+1507&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eHqVT6zAO4rhiAK71MHwDw&sqi=2&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Robert%20Tyrell%20died%201507&f=false

In it, Tyrell mentions his former wife, Christian, whom he wishes to
be buried next to in the Grey Friars, Colchester, and his now wife
Elizabeth. He also mentions his elder son Thomas Tyrell (who became a
priest), his younger son and heir Robert Tyrell, who settled at
Warwicks, Essex, and died 16 Oct. 1555, and his daughter Margery. His
executors "Willm Alove, lerned man in the lawe, John Danyell, Robert
Teryll my son, and Walter Wyngfield and Willm Cooke, Doctr". From the
wording of his will, Tyrell's three children sound as if they were
minors at the time, which fits with the chronology of the death of
their mother Christian's first husband in 1495. They also match up in
key points to the children assigned to Robert Tyrell & Christian
Hartishorn in the 1558 Tyrell Visitation pedigree, which names their 2
sons and daughter: "Sr John Tirrell a prest", "Robart Tyrrell 2 sonne
= Joyce da. to Crosse" and "Joyce". Two of the first names are wrong
(John the priest should be 'Thomas', and Joyce should be 'Margery'),
but the other information is correct. Admittedly, Robert Tyrell had
these children late in his life. He was the youngest son of Sir
Thomas Tyrell of Heron (c.1411-1476) and Anne Marney (b. at the latest
1414, the year her father died). He was thus in his early 50s (at the
youngest) in 1495 when Christian Hartishorn was widowed.
Chronologically, there is time for him to have had a previous marriage
and have fathered a daughter who was herself a mother of seven in
1483. But the lack of any mention of an Appleton daughter or
grandchildren (or a third wife) in Robert Tyrell's 1507 will, and his
lack of mention in the 1483 will of Thomas Appleton, would seem to
rule out the possibility that Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton, was a
daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell (d. c.1507).

It should be pointed out that the only source we have which provides a
parentage for Thomas Appleton's wife - the 1612 Appleton Visitation
pedigree - is information obtained more than 100 years after the
events, and gets at least two facts incorrect. The first name of
Thomas's wife was Alice, not 'Joyce', and there is no way that Sir
Robert Tyrell could have been Master of the Horse to King Henry VIII,
as he died during the reign of Henry VII when he was in his 60s, at
least.

In conclusion, we know that the wife of Thomas Appleton was named
Alice, not Joyce. We know that he was dead by 1485 and she by 1529,
and that they were buried in Holy Trinity Church, Dartford, Kent. We
know that in addition to their eldest son & heir Roger Appleton, they
had six other children: Thomas, Humphrey, Margery, Anne, Elizabeth and
Katherine. We also know that Christian Hartishorn was not the mother
of Thomas Appleton's wife, and we know almost as certainly that Sir
Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe (d. c.1507), the 4th son of Sir Thomas
Tyrell of Heron (c.1411-1476) & Anne Marney, was not her father. All
of this is additions and corrections to the Appleton descent presented
in PA3.

Indeed the entire line of descent of Thomas Appleton's wife from
Edward I is now in question and needs further research. That there
was a Tyrell connection to the Appletons seems clear from the fact
that Thomas Appleton named a Humphrey Tyrell as one of his executors
in 1483, and his son Roger Appleton named an Edward Tyrell as his
supervisor in 1529, but neither specify a relationship to these Tyrell
men. Alice Appleton, if a Tyrell, needs to be descended from Sir
Thomas Tyrell & Anne Marney in order to maintain an Edward I descent,
and this can't be definite as there are certainly other Tyrell
branches from which she may have sprouted.

Cheers, ------Brad

[John]

Post by Brad Verity
Per Plantagenet Ancestry (PA3), pp. 38-39 (sub Appleton), Thomas
Appleton, of Dartford, Kent, was married to Joyce Tyrrell, daughter of
Sir Robert Tyrrell & Christian Hartshorn.  The source for this was the
Appulton/Apleton pedigree in the 1612 Visitation of Essex (H.S.P. 13,
p. 134), which begins with: "Thomas Appulton of Kente Gentleman =
Joyce, daugh. to Sr Robert Tirrell of Essex Knight, Mr of the horse to
K. H. the 8th."  In the 1558 Tirrell/Tyrrell Visitation pedigree (same
volume, pp. 113-115), there is a "Joyce" (unmarried), daughter of "Sr
Robert Tirrell K. 4 sonn = Christian da. to John Harteshorn of
Bedfordshire = Edward Mackwilliams 1 husband." Sir Robert, in turn,
was the 4th son of "Sr Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Knt. 37 H. 6 = Emme da.
to Sr John Marney of Layer Marney in Essex".  It is thru Marney/
Sergeaux/Arundel/Despenser that "Joyce Tyrrell", wife of Thomas
Appleton of Dartford, derives a descent from Edward I, and so is
included in PA3.
But Joyce Tyrell Appleton never existed.  The will of Thomas Appleton
of Dartford, written on 13 Feb. 1483, and proved 11 May 1485, has been
transcribed by L.L. Duncan, and published online by the Kent
Archaeological Society's Medieval & Tudor Kent P.C.C. Wills project.
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk08/144.htm
Appleton mentions his wife Alice, eldest son Roger, second son Thomas,
3rd & youngest son Humphrey, and four daughters: Margery, Anne,
Elizabeth & Katherine.  He also makes his wife Alice, "Humfrey
Tyrell", and his brother-in-law Richard Martyn executors.  He asks to
be buried in Holy Trinity Church, Dartford, Kent, near his father's
tomb.  As he asks his executors to pay one of his mother's bequests,
we know she, like his father, had died by 1483.
Appleton's brother-in-law Richard Martyn of Dartford left a will dated
29 September 1485, and proved 27 October 1488, also transcribed &
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk08/150.htm
In it Martyn mentions his wife "Agnes".
Finally, the will of Roger Appleton of Dartford, son & heir of Thomas
Appleton, written on 12 April 1529, and proved on 2 July 1529, has
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk09/301.htm
In it, the heirs of "Agnes Martyn doughter of Roger Appulton and
Margery his wife decessed" are named in a remainder.  So we know that
Agnes wife of Richard Martyn of Dartford, was a daughter of Roger
Appleton of Dartford (father of Thomas Appleton) and Margery his
wife.  Curiously, the mother of Thomas Appleton (and wife of Roger
Appleton) is given as "Elizabeth, daughter of Henry Frowick, of London
and South Mimms, Hertfordshire" in PA3.  Either this is another error
(in either first name or parentage) stemming from Visitation
pedigrees, or Roger Appleton had an additional wife named Margery, and
Agnes Appleton Martyn was a half-sister of Thomas Appleton.  At
another point in the 1529 will, Roger refers to "Agnes Illenden myn
aunte", so its possible that Agnes Appleton married again after Thomas
Martyn's decease in 1488.
Roger Appleton also mentions in his 1529 will, "John Illenden and
Elizabeth his wife my suster".  Elizabeth Appleton Illenden is the
only sibling of Roger's mentioned in his will.  As she and her heirs
are mentioned in the remainder immediately before the heirs of Agnes
Martyn, it's likely that Elizabeth's husband John Illenden (a member
of the household of Roger Appleton) was the stepson of their aunt
Agnes Appleton Martyn Illenden.
Roger additionally mentions his son and heir Henry and his daughter
Jane, as well as "Goodlake and Henry Edwards my wifs childern" and
"Wynyfride Edwards".  These must have been the children of a previous
marriage of Roger's wife Anne Sulliard.  This is an addition then to
PA3, which has her as a descendant of Edward I thru Andrew/Stratton/
Luttrell/Courtenay.  As there is no other mention of Roger's wife in
his will, and no provision made for her, she most likely predeceased
him.  But as he does not make any provision for prayers for her soul
(as he does for his own, and those of his parents and his ancestors
and friends), the other possibility is that he and his wife were
estranged.  Roger states that his parents were buried in Holy Trinity
Church, Dartford, and later refers to "Thomas Appulton my father and
Alice his wife", so we know that Alice was indeed Roger's mother and
had died before 1529.  Roger names as his executors "John Wentworth
Esquier, Wm Sulyard gentilman and John Rogers my Fermor [i.e., farmer/
tenant] and supervisor Edward Tyrrell Esquier." Of these, John
Wentworth (later knighted) of North Elmsall was the husband of Roger's
daughter Jane, and William Sulyard was presumably related to Roger's
wife (perhaps her half-brother William).  Edward Tyrell may have been
a relative as well.
Could Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton (d. by 1485) and mother of Roger
Appleton (b. after 1462, d. 1529), have been the daughter of Sir
Robert Tyrell & Christian Hartishorn (d. 12 January 1506, bur. Grey
Friars church, Colchester, Essex)?  No.  Christian Hartishorn's first
husband Edward Macwilliam of Sambourne Hall did not died until 1495.
Could Alice have been the daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell by a previous
wife?  H.W. King, in the series "Ancient Wills", published in the
'Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society', transcribed the
will, written 30 Dec. 1507, of Sir Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe (Volume
http://books.google.ca/books?id=uaQWAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA175&dq=Robert+Tyrel...
In it, Tyrell mentions his former wife, Christian, whom he wishes to
be buried next to in the Grey Friars, Colchester, and his now wife
Elizabeth.  He also mentions his elder son Thomas Tyrell (who became a
priest), his younger son and heir Robert Tyrell, who settled at
Warwicks, Essex, and died 16 Oct. 1555, and his daughter Margery.  His
executors "Willm Alove, lerned man in the lawe, John Danyell, Robert
Teryll my son, and Walter Wyngfield and Willm Cooke, Doctr".  From the
wording of his will, Tyrell's three children sound as if they were
minors at the time, which fits with the chronology of the death of
their mother Christian's first husband in 1495.  They also match up in
key points to the children assigned to Robert Tyrell & Christian
Hartishorn in the 1558 Tyrell Visitation pedigree, which names their 2
sons and daughter: "Sr John Tirrell a prest", "Robart Tyrrell 2 sonne
= Joyce da. to Crosse" and "Joyce".  Two of the first names are wrong
(John the priest should be 'Thomas', and Joyce should be 'Margery'),
but the other information is correct.  Admittedly, Robert Tyrell had
these children late in his life.  He was the youngest son of Sir
Thomas Tyrell of Heron (c.1411-1476) and Anne Marney (b. at the latest
1414, the year her father died).  He was thus in his early 50s (at the
youngest) in 1495 when Christian Hartishorn was widowed.
Chronologically, there is time for him to have had a previous marriage
and have fathered a daughter who was herself a mother of seven in
1483.  But the lack of any mention of an Appleton daughter or
grandchildren (or a third wife) in Robert Tyrell's 1507 will, and his
lack of mention in the 1483 will of Thomas Appleton, would seem to
rule out the possibility that Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton, was a
daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell (d. c.1507).
It should be pointed out that the only source we have which provides a
parentage for Thomas Appleton's wife - the 1612 Appleton Visitation
pedigree - is information obtained more than 100 years after the
events, and gets at least two facts incorrect. The first name of
Thomas's wife was Alice, not 'Joyce', and there is no way that Sir
Robert Tyrell could have been Master of the Horse to King Henry VIII,
as he died during the reign of Henry VII when he was in his 60s, at
least.
In conclusion, we know that the wife of Thomas Appleton was named
Alice, not Joyce.  We know that he was dead by 1485 and she by 1529,
and that they were buried in Holy Trinity Church, Dartford, Kent.  We
know that in addition to their eldest son & heir Roger Appleton, they
had six other children: Thomas, Humphrey, Margery, Anne, Elizabeth and
Katherine.  We also know that Christian Hartishorn was not the mother
of Thomas Appleton's wife, and we know almost as certainly that Sir
Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe (d. c.1507), the 4th son of Sir Thomas
Tyrell of Heron (c.1411-1476) & Anne Marney, was not her father.  All
of this is additions and corrections to the Appleton descent presented
in PA3.
Indeed the entire line of descent of Thomas Appleton's wife from
Edward I is now in question and needs further research.  That there
was a Tyrell connection to the Appletons seems clear from the fact
that Thomas Appleton named a Humphrey Tyrell as one of his executors
in 1483, and his son Roger Appleton named an Edward Tyrell as his
supervisor in 1529, but neither specify a relationship to these Tyrell
men.  Alice Appleton, if a Tyrell, needs to be descended from Sir
Thomas Tyrell & Anne Marney in order to maintain an Edward I descent,
and this can't be definite as there are certainly other Tyrell
branches from which she may have sprouted.
Cheers,                ------Brad

Very interesting, Brad - thanks for posting this. It's a good object
lesson on why NOT to rely solely on visitation pedigrees.

The same line appears, not only in "Plantagenet Ancestry", but also in
its companion volume "Magna Carta Ancestry". In the paragraph on
Joyce Tyrrell [sic] and Thomas Appleton in both volumes, at least two
other sources are cited in addition to the visitation pedigrees:
Morant's Essex 1:263 and Hasted's Kent 2:389-90. I can't check out
Morant, but the Hasted reference discusses Thomas Appleton without
mentioning his wife.

The line also appears in the latest (and final) edition of Gary Boyd
Roberts' RD600, citing only the visitation pedigrees in support.
Given the wide publication of this (now erroneous?) line, this is
perhaps an item which should be written up for publication in one of
the standard journals.

[Douglas Richardson]

There is a pedigree of the Appleton family which was published in
Hawley et al., Vis. of Essex 1552, 1558, 1570, 1612 & 1634 1 (H.S.P.
13) (1878): 134–135 (1612 Vis.) (Appulton ped.). The same basic
pedigree appears in Collins, Baronettage of England 1 (1720): 324–326
(sub Appleton) and in Kent, Banner Display’d (1726): 244–246.

1.Thomas Appulton of Kente Gentleman. = Joyce, daugh. to Sr Robert
Tirrell of Essex Knight, Mr of the horse to K. H. the 8th.

2. Roger Apulton of Kente, esquier, sonne and heire and of Dartford =
Ann, daugh. to Sr John Suliard of Wetherden Hall in com. Suff. Knight.

3. Henry Apulton of Dartford in com. Kent Essequier sonne and heire. =
Margarett, daugh. to John Roper of Kente Esquier

4. Roger Appulton of Benflete in com. Essex esquier, sonne and heire.
= Agnis, daugh. to Edward & sister and heir to Walter Clarke, she
after mar. Thomas Gibbon of Lynne Esquier.

Mr. Verity has kindly supplied a reference to a transcript of the will
of Thomas Appleton, Gen. 1 above, which is dated 13 Feb. 1483 (i.e.,
1483[/84]), and proved 11 May 1485, In the will, Thomas Appleton
refers to his wife, Alice, and his three sons, Roger, Thomas, and
Humphrey, and four daughters, Margery, Anne, Elizabeth, and
Katherine.

Thomas Appleton (or Appulton) [Gen. 1 above] is supposed to be the son
of a Roger Appleton, Gent., of Dartford, Kent, Auditor in the
Exchequer, Escheator of Kent, Escheator of Middlesex, Customer of
Sandwich, Knight of the Shire for Kent, by Elizabeth, daughter of
Henry Frowick, of London and South Mimms, Hertfordshire. I don't
immediate have a source which documents this parentage. I do know
there is a biography of this Roger Appleton published in Sutton,
Coronation of Richard III (1983): 303.

Roger Appleton's wife, Elizabeth Frowick, was married previous to John
Martyn, who died in 1457 [see Sharpe Royal Descent (1875): 123 (Alphew
ped.).]. Elizabeth Frowick was the wife of Roger Appleton in 1464, as
indicated by her mother's will. She subsequently married (3rd) John
Alphew. Elizabeth Frowick is shown with these three husbands in a
Frowick pedogree published in Cass, South Mimms (1877): 70.

I've found one Chancery Proceeding which mentions this Roger Appleton
and his wife, Elizabeth Frowick:

C 1/41/220
Date: 1467-1472. John Bramston, late husband of Johane, daughter of
Thomas Peny, late of Fawkham (Facam). v. Roger Apulton and Elizabeth
his wife, executrix and late the wife of John Martin, late feoffee to
uses, and John the said and other executor of the last named.:
Marriage portion of the said late Johane due from messuage, &c. in
Whitstable.: Kent. END OF QUOTE.

If Roger Appleton and his wife, Elizabeth Frowick, had issue, any
children born of this marriage would necessarily have been born after
1457. As such, it is impossible for them to be the parents of Thomas
Appleton, of Dartford, Kent who left a will dated 13 Feb. 1483[/84],
proved 11 May 1485, naming a wife, Alice, and seven children.

From all appearances, it seems to me that Roger Appleton, husband of
Elizabeth Frowick, was in the same time generation as Thomas Appleton
[Gen. 1 above], died 1485. But they could not be father and son.

In the next generation, Mr. Verity has supplied the transcript of the
will of Roger Appleton, Gent., dated 12 April 1529, proved 2 July
1529. In the will, the testator refers to his own children, Henry and
Jane, and his wife's children, Goodlake and Henry Edwards. Mr. Verity
supposes that the Edwards children were the children of Roger
Appleton's only known wife, Anne Sulliard. However, there is a
visitation pedigree of the Sulliard family in print and it only
mentions Anne Sulliard's marriage to Roger Appleton [see Hervey et al.
Vis. of Suffolk (1882): 69–70 (Sulyard ped.: “Anne [Sulyard], mar. to
Roger Apulton of Dartford, co. Kent, Esq.”)].

Rather, it would seem that following the death of Anne Sulliard, Roger
Appleton had a second marriage to a Widow Edwards. There is in fact a
London marriage license recorded for a Roger Apulton and Anne Edwards,
widow, dated 24 Nov. 1525. For this license, see Chester Allegations
for Marr. Lics.: London 1 (H.S.P. 25) (1887): 4, which may be viewed
at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=euIK_JxRngsC&pg=PA4

With regard to the Tyrrell family, there is helpful information on
Thomas Appleton's father-in-law, Sir Robert Tyrrell, published in
Brown, Tyrells of England (1982). Some years ago, someone kindly sent
me a copy of this information and it supplied various details of the
history of Sir Robert Tyrrell. I believe Mr. Verity is incorrect in
his statement that Edward Mackwilliam, the first husband of Christian
Hartshorn, died in 1495. The book by Brown would likely touch on that
point.

I assume Christian Hartshorn is the Mackwilliam lady who is
commemorated in glass in the church at Stambourne, Essex. See The
Connoisseur 1 (1901): 24, which is available in snippet view at the
following weblink:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=JgRHAQAAIAAJ&q=Edward+Mackwilliam&dq=Edward+Mackwilliam&hl=en&sa=X&ei=brWWT6_cCIiZiQKvx9iECg&sqi=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA

Regarding Thomas Appleton [Gen. 1 above], British History Online
includes a snippet view of a Close Rolls item dated 1478-1482 in which
Thomas Appulton, esquire, occurs as a feoffee with James Tyrell
knight, and Humphrey Tyrell esquire. I assume James Tyrrell and
Humphrey Tyrrell are kinsfolk of his wife.

Lastly, Thomas Appleton [Gen. 1 above] is possibly the Thomas Appulton
who was admitted to Lincoln's Inn at Hilary 1463, and read autumn
1478. See Ives, Common Lawyers of Pre-Reformation England: Thomas
Kebell (1983): 47, which can be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=xu08AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA47

I assume Thomas Appulton of Lincoln's Inn is the same person as the
Thomas Appulton who was an advocate in the court of Canterbury in
1476. See Calendar of Plea and Memoranda Rolls Preserved Among the
Archives of the Corporation of the City of London at the Guild-hall:
1438-1482, pg. 89, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=S8LRAAAAMAAJ&q=%22Thomas+Appulton%22&dq=%22Thomas+Appulton%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lrqWT8q9GoKgiQK1_537CQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBjgo

However, I should point out thatr there was another contemporary
Thomas Appleton, of Great Waldingfield, Suffolk who died in 1507. The
above two items might well refer to him.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Brad Verity]

Post by Douglas Richardson
Roger Appleton's wife, Elizabeth Frowick, was married previous to John
Martyn, who died in 1457 [see Sharpe Royal Descent (1875): 123 (Alphew
ped.).].  Elizabeth Frowick was the wife of Roger Appleton in 1464, as
indicated by her mother's will.  She subsequently married (3rd) John
Alphew.   Elizabeth Frowick is shown with these three husbands in a
Frowick pedogree published in Cass, South Mimms (1877): 70.
If Roger Appleton and his wife, Elizabeth Frowick, had issue, any
children born of this marriage would necessarily have been born after
1457.  As such, it is impossible for them to be the parents of Thomas
Appleton, of Dartford, Kent who left a will dated 13 Feb. 1483[/84],
proved 11 May 1485, naming a wife, Alice, and seven children.
From all appearances, it seems to me that Roger Appleton, husband of
Elizabeth Frowick, was in the same time generation as Thomas Appleton
[Gen. 1 above], died 1485.  But they could not be father and son.

I wonder if Roger Appleton the M.P. (I have not yet seen the entry for
him in Wedgwood's HOP) had two wives? First, Margery, by whom he had
Thomas and Agnes, and then Elizabeth Frowick Martyn? It seems quite
likely that Richard Martyn of Dartford (d. by 1488), husband of Agnes
Appleton, was her stepbrother, the son of Elizabeth Frowick & her
first husband John Martyn (d. 1457)?

Post by Douglas Richardson
Rather, it would seem that following the death of Anne Sulliard, Roger
Appleton had a second marriage to a Widow Edwards.  There is in fact a
London marriage license recorded for a Roger Apulton and Anne Edwards,
widow, dated 24 Nov. 1525.  For this license, see Chester Allegations
for Marr. Lics.: London 1 (H.S.P. 25) (1887): 4, which may be viewed
   http://books.google.com/books?id=euIK_JxRngsC&pg=PA4

Great! Thank you for clearing that up, Douglas.

Post by Douglas Richardson
With regard to the Tyrrell family, there is helpful information on
Thomas Appleton's father-in-law, Sir Robert Tyrrell, published in
Brown, Tyrells of England (1982).  Some years ago, someone kindly sent
me a copy of this information and it supplied various details of the
history of Sir Robert Tyrrell.  I believe Mr. Verity is incorrect in
his statement that Edward Mackwilliam, the first husband of Christian
Hartshorn, died in 1495.  The book by Brown would likely touch on that
point.

I took that death date from the Stambourne website:

http://www.stambourne.com/StambourneParishHistory/Chapter3.html

At different points, both 1495 and 1499 are speculated as his date of
death. The earlier the better, of course, as her three children with
subsequent husband Sir Robert Tyrell, though apparently underage in
December 1507 when he wrote his will, do not sound as if they are
infants or young children, either. Even if Edward Mackwilliam died
ten years earlier, in 1485, say, it is still not possible for
Christian Hartishorn to have been the mother of Alice, wife of Thomas
Appleton, who was herself a mother of seven in 1483, or 1483/4.
Christian had at least one child by her first husband, a son Henry
Mackwilliam, who inherited Stambourne Hall in 1506 after Christian's
death.

Post by Douglas Richardson
I assume Christian Hartshorn is the Mackwilliam lady who is
commemorated in glass in the church at Stambourne, Essex.  See The
Connoisseur 1 (1901): 24, which is available in snippet view at the
http://books.google.ca/books?id=JgRHAQAAIAAJ&q=Edward+Mackwilliam&dq=...

There's a beautiful photo of the stained glass window panel of

Post by Douglas Richardson
Regarding Thomas Appleton [Gen. 1 above], British History Online
includes a snippet view of a Close Rolls item dated 1478-1482 in which
Thomas Appulton, esquire, occurs as a feoffee with James Tyrell
knight, and Humphrey Tyrell esquire.  I assume James Tyrrell and
Humphrey Tyrrell are kinsfolk of his wife.

"Humphrey Tyrell" keeps popping up in association with Thomas
Appleton, as a feoffee above, and as an executor of his will in
1483/4. This seems like the best route to begin to try and place
Alice among the Tyrells. Perhaps the 1982 Tyrell book by Brown that
you mentioned above (which I haven't seen) can be of help.

Cheers, ----Brad

[John]

Post by Brad Verity

Post by Douglas Richardson
Roger Appleton's wife, Elizabeth Frowick, was married previous to John
Martyn, who died in 1457 [see Sharpe Royal Descent (1875): 123 (Alphew
ped.).].  Elizabeth Frowick was the wife of Roger Appleton in 1464, as
indicated by her mother's will.  She subsequently married (3rd) John
Alphew.   Elizabeth Frowick is shown with these three husbands in a
Frowick pedogree published in Cass, South Mimms (1877): 70.
If Roger Appleton and his wife, Elizabeth Frowick, had issue, any
children born of this marriage would necessarily have been born after
1457.  As such, it is impossible for them to be the parents of Thomas
Appleton, of Dartford, Kent who left a will dated 13 Feb. 1483[/84],
proved 11 May 1485, naming a wife, Alice, and seven children.
From all appearances, it seems to me that Roger Appleton, husband of
Elizabeth Frowick, was in the same time generation as Thomas Appleton
[Gen. 1 above], died 1485.  But they could not be father and son.

I wonder if Roger Appleton the M.P. (I have not yet seen the entry for
him in Wedgwood's HOP) had two wives?  First, Margery, by whom he had
Thomas and Agnes, and then Elizabeth Frowick Martyn?  It seems quite
likely that Richard Martyn of Dartford (d. by 1488), husband of Agnes
Appleton, was her stepbrother, the son of Elizabeth Frowick & her
first husband John Martyn (d. 1457)?

Wedgwood's bio of Roger Appleton the MP (d. 1491) gives him only a
single wife: Elizabeth, dau. of Henry Frowick and widow of John
Martin [sic}. As DR has noted above, for chronological reasons this
Roger cannot be the father of Thomas Appleton (d. 1485). And
similarly he cannot be the grandfather of Roger Appleton (b. ca. 1462)
who married Anne Sulliard.

The identification of Roger Appleton and Elizabeth Frowick as the
parents of Thomas Appleton who supposedly married Joyce Tyrell seems
to have been first published in the 2nd edition of Faris' "Plantagenet
Ancestry" (it's not in the 1st edition) and carried forward without
change (or verification?) in DR's later volumes. The identification
of Jouyce Tyrell (and particularly her parentage) seems to appear
first in RD500 (predecessor to RD600), which is cited in the 1st
edition of Faris along with the visitation pedigrees cited by RD500.

[snip]

Post by Brad Verity

Post by Douglas Richardson
I assume Christian Hartshorn is the Mackwilliam lady who is
commemorated in glass in the church at Stambourne, Essex.  See The
Connoisseur 1 (1901): 24, which is available in snippet view at the
http://books.google.ca/books?id=JgRHAQAAIAAJ&q=Edward+Mackwilliam&dq=...

This citation from Google Books (provided by DR, not Brad) appears to
be incorrect in its identification of the book in question. A full-
view version of vol. 1 (1901) of "The Connoisseur" is available (in a
somewhat roundabout way) at the Internet Archive, and it does not
include the pages noted in the snippet view from Google Books. I
haven't yet been able to identify "which" volume of The Connoisseur
might have these pages, but it's definitely not viol. 1 - or vol. 2.

Such are the pitfalls of doing "research" via a text-search mechanism
such as Google Books - especially via snippet views. :-)

[Brad Verity]

Post by Brad Verity
"Humphrey Tyrell" keeps popping up in association with Thomas
Appleton, as a feoffee above, and as an executor of his will in
1483/4.  This seems like the best route to begin to try and place
Alice among the Tyrells.  Perhaps the 1982 Tyrell book by Brown that
you mentioned above (which I haven't seen) can be of help.

There is a bio of Roger Appleton of Dartford & South Benfleet
(1520-1558) in HOP, which curiously is not one of the sources listed
for him in PA3 (2004), p. 39 (sub Appleton):

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/appleton-roger-1520-58

Mention is made in it that the overseer of the will of Roger's father,
Henry Appleton of Dartford (d. 1545), was his 'cousin' Edmund
Tyrrell. Edmund was also made of overseer of Roger's own will,
written on 13 July 1551, and proved on 13 June 1558. There is a bio
of this Edmund Tyrrell in HOP:

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/tyrrell-edmund-1513-76

Edmund Tyrrell of Rawreth (c.1513-1576), was the son of Jasper Tyrrell
(d. 1539), who in turn was the son of William Tyrrell (d. 1543). Hal
Bradley's database has Jasper Tyrrell as the son of William Tyrrell of
Rawreth (d. 1471) & Philippa Thornbury:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hwbradley/aqwg3271.htm

The date of death for William Tyrrell (1471 in Hal's database and 1543
in HOP) don't match up, and they may be two distinct William Tyrrells,
but it would seem that it is this branch of the Tyrrells that is a
good start to search for Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton of Dartford
(d. 1485), since we do have verification from their grandson Henry
Appleton (d. 1545) that Edmund Tyrrell was a cousin. Henry Appleton's
will has also been transcribed & published online:

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk10/383.htm

In it he mentions "my cosyn Edmunde Tyrell Esquier", "my brother Wm
Rooper Esquier and my brother John Pilbarough Esquier". William Roper
of Eltham was actually his brother-in-law, and is famous in history as
the son-in-law of St. Thomas More. John Pilbarough must also have
been a brother-in-law, but whether he was married to a sister of Henry
Appleton or to a sister of Henry's wife Margaret Roper is not clear.
According to the pedigrees, the only sister of Henry Appleton was
Jane, wife first of Sir John Wentworth of North Elmsall, and second of
Sir Thomas Gargrave. Jane is also the only daughter mentioned in the
1529 will of their father Roger Appleton. Henry Appleton (d. 1545)
also mentions in his will "Henry Pilbarough my godsone", who was
presumably son of the John Pilbarough Henry calls "my brother".

Finally, Henry mentions a younger son Edward Appleton, in his will.
Edward is an addition to the Appleton pedigrees and to PA3.

I don't have the Tyrrells of Rawreth in my database, as they aren't
descended from Edward I (to my knowledge), but I see from Hal
Bradley's database that Philippa Thornbury, wife of Sir William
Tyrrell of Rawreth, was also married to John Pympe of Nettlestead and
Sir John Guildford of Rolvenden, both prominent men of Kent, the
county where the Appleton seat of Dartford lies. It may well be from
this branch of the Tyrrells, then, that Thomas Appleton (d. 1485) took
his wife Alice.

Cheers, -----Brad

[Douglas Richardson]

Brad ~

Jasper Tyrrell who is mentioned in your post is almost certainly in
the ancestry of the immigrant, Rose (Stoughton) Otis. Martin Hollick
has done research on this man.

I'll forward a copy of your post onto Martin and ask him to reply here
on the newsgroup. Hopefully Martin can supply details of Jasper
Tyrrell's ancestry.

DR

[[e-mail]]

Edmund Lewkenor, son of Roger and Anne (---) Lewknor, married Joan
Tyrrell, the daughter of Jasper Tyrrell and his wife Anne Goring.
Jasper was the son of William Tyrrell and Philipa Thornbury. William
in turn is the son of John Tyrrell and Alice Coggeshall. The Tyrrells
are outlined in “The Tyrells of England” by Oliver F. Brown
(Phillimore, Chicester, Sussex, 1982). One Edmund Tyrrell was an
overseer of the will of Edmund Lewkenor in 1545 and I presume his
brother-in-law. Joan's identification as the daughter of Jasper rests
upon the chronology working, the location of the family, and her
naming a child Jasper. She is universally given as a Tyrrell in
visitations and in Comber's. Other than that, I have done no in-depth
nor original research on the Tyrrells to date.

[Brad Verity]

Post by ***@mac.com
Jasper was the son of William Tyrrell and Philipa Thornbury.

Martin, thank you for the reply (and thank you to Douglas for
contacting you). Jasper may not have been the son of the couple
above. The William Tyrrell who was father of Jasper is said by HOP to
have died 28 September 1543, when he was succeeded by his grandson,
Edmund Tyrrell, who must have been returned as age 30 and more, so
born by 1513. HOP's source for this is William Tyrrell's IPM
(C142/71/98).

Post by ***@mac.com
William
in turn is the son of John Tyrrell and Alice Coggeshall.  The Tyrrells
are outlined in “The Tyrells of England” by Oliver F. Brown
(Phillimore, Chicester, Sussex, 1982).

Sir John Tyrrell, Speaker of the House of Commons, was born about 1382
and died in 1437. His first wife Alice Coggeshall died in 1422. The
youngest of their five sons was William Tyrrell of Beeches in
Rawreth. The latest date he could be born is 1422. He may be the
William Tyrrell who married Philippa Thornbury, but he most definitely
could not be the William Tyrrell (d. 1543) who was the father of James
(d. 1539), and grandfather of Edmund (c.1513-1576) and your Joan
Tyrrell, wife of Edmund Lewkenor (d. 1545) above.

Cheers, -----Brad

[John]

Post by Brad Verity

Post by ***@mac.com
Jasper was the son of William Tyrrell and Philipa Thornbury.

Martin, thank you for the reply (and thank you to Douglas for
contacting you).  Jasper may not have been the son of the couple
above.  The William Tyrrell who was father of Jasper is said by HOP to
have died 28 September 1543, when he was succeeded by his grandson,
Edmund Tyrrell, who must have been returned as age 30 and more, so
born by 1513.  HOP's source for this is William Tyrrell's IPM
(C142/71/98).

Post by ***@mac.com
William
in turn is the son of John Tyrrell and Alice Coggeshall.  The Tyrrells
are outlined in “The Tyrells of England” by Oliver F. Brown
(Phillimore, Chicester, Sussex, 1982).

Sir John Tyrrell, Speaker of the House of Commons, was born about 1382
and died in 1437.  His first wife Alice Coggeshall died in 1422.  The
youngest of their five sons was William Tyrrell of Beeches in
Rawreth.  The latest date he could be born is 1422.  He may be the
William Tyrrell who married Philippa Thornbury, but he most definitely
could not be the William Tyrrell (d. 1543) who was the father of James
(d. 1539), and grandfather of Edmund (c.1513-1576) and your Joan
Tyrrell, wife of Edmund Lewkenor (d. 1545) above.
Cheers,                   -----Brad

Brown's book on the Tyrrells says that the William Tyrrell who d. 1543
was the nephew, not the father, of Jasper Tyrrell. This William was
the second son of Jasper's elder half-brother John. William had
succeeded his elder brother Edward in the family estates in 1541, but
died himself only two years later without issue (or at least male
issue), and the estates passed to his cousin Edmund the MP (d. 1576).
Apparently the author of the HOP bio of Edmund confused the William
who died 1543 with his (and Edmund's) grandfather William who died
much earlier. It would be interesting to check out the 1543 IPM of
William and see exactly what it has to say on this.

Brown refers to this branch as the Tyrrells of beeches, an estate of
theirs in Rawreck. He gives a couple of clues - but doesn't connect
the dots himself - that the Tyrrell wife of Thomas Appleton was of
this branch. Specifically he says that the manor of South Benfleet
(apparently in the vicinity of Beeches and Rawreck) was held by this
branch, starting with the elder William (son of Sir John and Alice
Coggeshall). The Tyrrells obtained South Benfleet through the
Coggeshall marriage, and it passed to the Appletons through their
Tyrrell marriage.

If the Tyrrell wife of Thomas Appleton (known to be named Alice as
Brad has shown) was of this branch of the family, the chronology would
suggest that she was a daughter of the elder William Tyrrell by one of
his two wives - but Brown is silent on this possibility. Based on
chronology again, she could also have been a sister rather than
daughter of this William, and thus daughter of Sir John and Alice
Coggeshall. Tantalizingly, Brown does mention an Alice daughter of
John Tyrrell (whom he deems to be Sir John) who was in 1419 identified
as wife of "William Skrene the younger". perhaps there's a connection
here....

There is an interesting discussion of this branch of the Tyrrells in
vol. 2 of Philip Benton's "History of Rochford Hundred" (1888)
starting about p. 653:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ioYuAAAAMAAJ

[Brad Verity]

Post by Brad Verity
We now know that's not the case because 1) The chronology makes it
impossible; 2) The daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell & Christian
Hartishorn was actually named 'Margery' not Joyce; and 3) The wife of
Thomas Appleton was actually named 'Alice' not Joyce.

It would appear that Margery Tyrrell, the daughter of Sir Robert
Tyrrell and Christian Hartishorn, married one Hugh Bryce. From the
National Archives:

"C 1/463/61. Robert Amadas. v. Margery, daughter of Robert Tyrell,
knight, and late the wife of Hugh, grandson and heir of Hugh Bryce of
London, knight.: The manor of Jenkyns and messuages and land in
Barking, Dagenham, and London. Subpoena and injunction.: Essex,
London. 1518-1529."

Post by Brad Verity
Brown's book on the Tyrrells says that the William Tyrrell who d. 1543
was the nephew, not the father, of Jasper Tyrrell.  This William was
the second son of Jasper's elder half-brother John.  William had
succeeded his elder brother Edward in the family estates in 1541, but
died himself only two years later without issue (or at least male
issue), and the estates passed to his cousin Edmund the MP (d. 1576).
Apparently the author of the HOP bio of Edmund confused the William
who died 1543 with his (and Edmund's) grandfather William who died
much earlier.  It would be interesting to check out the 1543 IPM of
William and see exactly what it has to say on this.

Thank you, John, for clearing this up. The Edward Tyrell of Beeches
(d. 1541) may be the Edward Tyrell Esquire whom Roger Appleton of
Dartford (d. 1529) named as supervisor of his will.

Post by Brad Verity
Brown refers to this branch as the Tyrrells of beeches, an estate of
theirs in Rawreck.  He gives a couple of clues - but doesn't connect
the dots himself - that the Tyrrell wife of Thomas Appleton was of
this branch.  Specifically he says that the manor of South Benfleet
(apparently in the vicinity of Beeches and Rawreck) was held by this
branch, starting with the elder William (son of Sir John and Alice
Coggeshall).  The Tyrrells obtained South Benfleet through the
Coggeshall marriage, and it passed to the Appletons through their
Tyrrell marriage.

Interesting. Another connection to this branch of the Tyrrells.

Post by Brad Verity
If the Tyrrell wife of Thomas Appleton (known to be named Alice as
Brad has shown) was of this branch of the family, the chronology would
suggest that she was a daughter of the elder William Tyrrell by one of
his two wives - but Brown is silent on this possibility.

The 1470/71 will of William Tyrrell of Beeches names only two
unmarried daughters, Jane and Anne, both under age 16:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=uaQWAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=William+Tyrell+of+Beeches&source=bl&ots=VBXyov3K7N&sig=5FPsi4cL1t6-OIo1-T8mz4vBQ1U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_aCfT4fFKq7MiQLI3MjIAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=William%20Tyrell%20of%20Beeches&f=false

He may have had additional daughters who were not named in the will
because they were married, possibly Alice (named for his mother?), the
wife of Thomas Appleton of Dartford (d. 1485).

Post by Brad Verity
Based on
chronology again, she could also have been a sister rather than
daughter of this William, and thus daughter of Sir John and Alice
Coggeshall.

I think that's stretching the chronology too far. Per her M.I., Alice
Coggeshall Tyrrell did have 4 daughters, including one named Alice.
But all would've had to have been born by 1422, the year of Alice's
death. Alice Appleton had 7 children by 1483/4, all of whom were
under age 21, so born after 1462/3, when the Alice Tyrrell who was the
daughter of Alice Coggeshall would have been in her 40s, at least.

Post by Brad Verity
Tantalizingly, Brown does mention an Alice daughter of
John Tyrrell (whom he deems to be Sir John) who was in 1419 identified
as wife of "William Skrene the younger".  perhaps there's a connection
here....

Thanks again for checking the Brown book.

Post by Brad Verity
There is an interesting discussion of this branch of the Tyrrells in
vol. 2 of Philip Benton's "History of Rochford Hundred" (1888)
starting about p. 653:http://books.google.com/books?id=ioYuAAAAMAAJ

We also have a Humphrey Tyrrell who was named by Thomas Appleton as an
executor in his 1483/4 will. Thomas and Alice Appleton named their
youngest son Humphrey. I'm wondering if this was the Humphrey Tyrrell
(d. 1507, third son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Hall & Anne
Marney), who was later seated at Little Warley Hall?

Cheers, -----Brad

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Post by Brad Verity

Post by ***@mac.com
Jasper was the son of William Tyrrell and Philipa Thornbury.

Martin, thank you for the reply (and thank you to Douglas for
contacting you). Jasper may not have been the son of the couple
above. The William Tyrrell who was father of Jasper is said by HOP to
have died 28 September 1543, when he was succeeded by his grandson,
Edmund Tyrrell, who must have been returned as age 30 and more, so
born by 1513. HOP's source for this is William Tyrrell's IPM
(C142/71/98).

Post by ***@mac.com
William
in turn is the son of John Tyrrell and Alice Coggeshall.  The Tyrrells
are outlined in “The Tyrells of England” by Oliver F. Brown
(Phillimore, Chicester, Sussex, 1982).

Sir John Tyrrell, Speaker of the House of Commons, was born about 1382
and died in 1437. His first wife Alice Coggeshall died in 1422. The
youngest of their five sons was William Tyrrell of Beeches in
Rawreth. The latest date he could be born is 1422. He may be the
William Tyrrell who married Philippa Thornbury, but he most definitely
could not be the William Tyrrell (d. 1543) who was the father of James
(d. 1539), and grandfather of Edmund (c.1513-1576) and your Joan
Tyrrell, wife of Edmund Lewkenor (d. 1545) above.
Cheers, -----Brad

Brad, Martin, Douglas, others

I came across this website which includes transcripts of a number of documents relating to EDWARD DE VERE, 17TH EARL OF OXFORD. A number of the documents pertain to the Tyrrell's and three wills in particular seem to cornfirm the parentage of Jasper Tyrrell was William Tyrrell and Philippa Thornbury unless I am interpreting them incorrectly. They are linked below and are present after some commentary by the author of the pages.

The first is the will dated 16 March 1471, of Sir William
Tyrrell of Beeches
http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-5-167.pdf

The second is the will dated 6 November 1576 and proved 29
November 1576, of Edmund Tyrrell of Ramsden Barrington, the son of Jasper Tyrrell and Anne Goring
http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-58-499.pdf

The third is the will dated 20 December 1493 and proved 28
November 1494, of John Tyrrell of Beeches, eldest son and heir of Sir William Tyrrell
http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-10-311.pdf

There are a number of other documents on this site that may be useful to researchers on the newsgroup.

Regards,
Jordan Vandenberg

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Post by Jordan Vandenberg

Post by Brad Verity

Post by ***@mac.com
Jasper was the son of William Tyrrell and Philipa Thornbury.

Martin, thank you for the reply (and thank you to Douglas for
contacting you). Jasper may not have been the son of the couple
above. The William Tyrrell who was father of Jasper is said by HOP to
have died 28 September 1543, when he was succeeded by his grandson,
Edmund Tyrrell, who must have been returned as age 30 and more, so
born by 1513. HOP's source for this is William Tyrrell's IPM
(C142/71/98).

Post by ***@mac.com
William
in turn is the son of John Tyrrell and Alice Coggeshall.  The Tyrrells
are outlined in “The Tyrells of England” by Oliver F. Brown
(Phillimore, Chicester, Sussex, 1982).

Sir John Tyrrell, Speaker of the House of Commons, was born about 1382
and died in 1437. His first wife Alice Coggeshall died in 1422. The
youngest of their five sons was William Tyrrell of Beeches in
Rawreth. The latest date he could be born is 1422. He may be the
William Tyrrell who married Philippa Thornbury, but he most definitely
could not be the William Tyrrell (d. 1543) who was the father of James
(d. 1539), and grandfather of Edmund (c.1513-1576) and your Joan
Tyrrell, wife of Edmund Lewkenor (d. 1545) above.
Cheers, -----Brad

Brad, Martin, Douglas, others
I came across this website which includes transcripts of a number of documents relating to EDWARD DE VERE, 17TH EARL OF OXFORD. A number of the documents pertain to the Tyrrell's and three wills in particular seem to cornfirm the parentage of Jasper Tyrrell was William Tyrrell and Philippa Thornbury unless I am interpreting them incorrectly. They are linked below and are present after some commentary by the author of the pages.
The first is the will dated 16 March 1471, of Sir William
Tyrrell of Beeches
http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-5-167.pdf
The second is the will dated 6 November 1576 and proved 29
November 1576, of Edmund Tyrrell of Ramsden Barrington, the son of Jasper Tyrrell and Anne Goring
http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-58-499.pdf
The third is the will dated 20 December 1493 and proved 28
November 1494, of John Tyrrell of Beeches, eldest son and heir of Sir William Tyrrell
http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-10-311.pdf
There are a number of other documents on this site that may be useful to researchers on the newsgroup.
Regards,
Jordan Vandenberg

Sorry I neglected to post the link to the page containing the descriptions and links to the documents pertaining to EDWARD DE VERE, 17TH EARL OF OXFORD housed on the Oxford Authorship Site.
http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/documents.html

[Douglas Richardson]

Below is a record which presumably involves Thomas Appleton,
Gentleman, who died 1485.

This record indicates that Thomas Appleton served as a feoffee for a
settlement of the manor of Wivenhoe, Essexi in 1481. Wivenhoe is the
the parish in which his father-in-law, Sir Robert Tyrrell, resided in
1507. The grantor in the record below is Richard, Duke of Gloucester,
who is better known in history as King Richard III.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + +

Norfolk Record Office: Hare Family, Baronets of Stow Bardolph

Hare 6060 227 x 6 Date: 1 Jan 1480/81

Contents:

Richard Duke of Gloucester to John Howard, Knight Lord Howard,
Margaret his wife, Henry Wentworth, Knight, John Wode of Molsey, Esq.
John Clopton, Esq., Henry Colet citizen and alderman of London, James
Hubert, Edward Danyell, John Brame, William Capell, John Draper and
Thomas Appelton

Manor and lordship of Wevenhoo (Essex). Date: 20 Edward IV.

[John]

Post by Douglas Richardson
Below is a record which presumably involves Thomas Appleton,
Gentleman, who died 1485.
This record indicates that Thomas Appleton served as a feoffee for a
settlement of the manor of Wivenhoe, Essexi in 1481.  Wivenhoe is the
the parish in which his father-in-law, Sir Robert Tyrrell, resided in
1507.  The grantor in the record below is Richard, Duke of Gloucester,
who is better known in history as King Richard III.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + +
Norfolk Record Office: Hare Family, Baronets of Stow Bardolph
Hare 6060 227 x 6   Date: 1 Jan 1480/81
Richard Duke of Gloucester to John Howard, Knight Lord Howard,
Margaret his wife, Henry Wentworth, Knight, John Wode of Molsey, Esq.
John Clopton, Esq., Henry Colet citizen and alderman of London, James
Hubert, Edward Danyell, John Brame, William Capell, John Draper and
Thomas Appelton
Manor and lordship of Wevenhoo (Essex).  Date: 20 Edward IV.

Given the increasing uncertainty about the Appleton pedigree, it would
be more accurate to say that this record *may* involve Thomas Appleton
who d. 1485 - not that it "presumably" does. And there is certainly
now considerable doubt (to say the least) as to whether Thomas
Appleton was the son-in-law of Sir Robert Tyrrell.

[Doug]

Post by Brad Verity
Per Plantagenet Ancestry (PA3), pp. 38-39 (sub Appleton), Thomas
Appleton, of Dartford, Kent, was married to Joyce Tyrrell, daughter of
Sir Robert Tyrrell & Christian Hartshorn. The source for this was the
Appulton/Apleton pedigree in the 1612 Visitation of Essex (H.S.P. 13,
p. 134), which begins with: "Thomas Appulton of Kente Gentleman =
Joyce, daugh. to Sr Robert Tirrell of Essex Knight, Mr of the horse to
K. H. the 8th." In the 1558 Tirrell/Tyrrell Visitation pedigree (same
volume, pp. 113-115), there is a "Joyce" (unmarried), daughter of "Sr
Robert Tirrell K. 4 sonn = Christian da. to John Harteshorn of
Bedfordshire = Edward Mackwilliams 1 husband." Sir Robert, in turn,
was the 4th son of "Sr Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Knt. 37 H. 6 = Emme da.
to Sr John Marney of Layer Marney in Essex". It is thru Marney/
Sergeaux/Arundel/Despenser that "Joyce Tyrrell", wife of Thomas
Appleton of Dartford, derives a descent from Edward I, and so is
included in PA3.
But Joyce Tyrell Appleton never existed. The will of Thomas Appleton
of Dartford, written on 13 Feb. 1483, and proved 11 May 1485, has been
transcribed by L.L. Duncan, and published online by the Kent
Archaeological Society's Medieval & Tudor Kent P.C.C. Wills project.
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk08/144.htm
Appleton mentions his wife Alice, eldest son Roger, second son Thomas,
3rd & youngest son Humphrey, and four daughters: Margery, Anne,
Elizabeth & Katherine. He also makes his wife Alice, "Humfrey
Tyrell", and his brother-in-law Richard Martyn executors. He asks to
be buried in Holy Trinity Church, Dartford, Kent, near his father's
tomb. As he asks his executors to pay one of his mother's bequests,
we know she, like his father, had died by 1483.
Appleton's brother-in-law Richard Martyn of Dartford left a will dated
29 September 1485, and proved 27 October 1488, also transcribed &
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk08/150.htm
In it Martyn mentions his wife "Agnes".
Finally, the will of Roger Appleton of Dartford, son & heir of Thomas
Appleton, written on 12 April 1529, and proved on 2 July 1529, has
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk09/301.htm
In it, the heirs of "Agnes Martyn doughter of Roger Appulton and
Margery his wife decessed" are named in a remainder. So we know that
Agnes wife of Richard Martyn of Dartford, was a daughter of Roger
Appleton of Dartford (father of Thomas Appleton) and Margery his
wife. Curiously, the mother of Thomas Appleton (and wife of Roger
Appleton) is given as "Elizabeth, daughter of Henry Frowick, of London
and South Mimms, Hertfordshire" in PA3. Either this is another error
(in either first name or parentage) stemming from Visitation
pedigrees, or Roger Appleton had an additional wife named Margery, and
Agnes Appleton Martyn was a half-sister of Thomas Appleton. At
another point in the 1529 will, Roger refers to "Agnes Illenden myn
aunte", so its possible that Agnes Appleton married again after Thomas
Martyn's decease in 1488.
Roger Appleton also mentions in his 1529 will, "John Illenden and
Elizabeth his wife my suster". Elizabeth Appleton Illenden is the
only sibling of Roger's mentioned in his will. As she and her heirs
are mentioned in the remainder immediately before the heirs of Agnes
Martyn, it's likely that Elizabeth's husband John Illenden (a member
of the household of Roger Appleton) was the stepson of their aunt
Agnes Appleton Martyn Illenden.
Roger additionally mentions his son and heir Henry and his daughter
Jane, as well as "Goodlake and Henry Edwards my wifs childern" and
"Wynyfride Edwards". These must have been the children of a previous
marriage of Roger's wife Anne Sulliard. This is an addition then to
PA3, which has her as a descendant of Edward I thru Andrew/Stratton/
Luttrell/Courtenay. As there is no other mention of Roger's wife in
his will, and no provision made for her, she most likely predeceased
him. But as he does not make any provision for prayers for her soul
(as he does for his own, and those of his parents and his ancestors
and friends), the other possibility is that he and his wife were
estranged. Roger states that his parents were buried in Holy Trinity
Church, Dartford, and later refers to "Thomas Appulton my father and
Alice his wife", so we know that Alice was indeed Roger's mother and
had died before 1529. Roger names as his executors "John Wentworth
Esquier, Wm Sulyard gentilman and John Rogers my Fermor [i.e., farmer/
tenant] and supervisor Edward Tyrrell Esquier." Of these, John
Wentworth (later knighted) of North Elmsall was the husband of Roger's
daughter Jane, and William Sulyard was presumably related to Roger's
wife (perhaps her half-brother William). Edward Tyrell may have been
a relative as well.
Could Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton (d. by 1485) and mother of Roger
Appleton (b. after 1462, d. 1529), have been the daughter of Sir
Robert Tyrell & Christian Hartishorn (d. 12 January 1506, bur. Grey
Friars church, Colchester, Essex)? No. Christian Hartishorn's first
husband Edward Macwilliam of Sambourne Hall did not died until 1495.
Could Alice have been the daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell by a previous
wife? H.W. King, in the series "Ancient Wills", published in the
'Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society', transcribed the
will, written 30 Dec. 1507, of Sir Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe (Volume
http://books.google.ca/books?id=uaQWAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA175&dq=Robert+Tyrell+died+1507&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eHqVT6zAO4rhiAK71MHwDw&sqi=2&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Robert%20Tyrell%20died%201507&f=false
In it, Tyrell mentions his former wife, Christian, whom he wishes to
be buried next to in the Grey Friars, Colchester, and his now wife
Elizabeth. He also mentions his elder son Thomas Tyrell (who became a
priest), his younger son and heir Robert Tyrell, who settled at
Warwicks, Essex, and died 16 Oct. 1555, and his daughter Margery. His
executors "Willm Alove, lerned man in the lawe, John Danyell, Robert
Teryll my son, and Walter Wyngfield and Willm Cooke, Doctr". From the
wording of his will, Tyrell's three children sound as if they were
minors at the time, which fits with the chronology of the death of
their mother Christian's first husband in 1495. They also match up in
key points to the children assigned to Robert Tyrell & Christian
Hartishorn in the 1558 Tyrell Visitation pedigree, which names their 2
sons and daughter: "Sr John Tirrell a prest", "Robart Tyrrell 2 sonne
= Joyce da. to Crosse" and "Joyce". Two of the first names are wrong
(John the priest should be 'Thomas', and Joyce should be 'Margery'),
but the other information is correct. Admittedly, Robert Tyrell had
these children late in his life. He was the youngest son of Sir
Thomas Tyrell of Heron (c.1411-1476) and Anne Marney (b. at the latest
1414, the year her father died). He was thus in his early 50s (at the
youngest) in 1495 when Christian Hartishorn was widowed.
Chronologically, there is time for him to have had a previous marriage
and have fathered a daughter who was herself a mother of seven in
1483. But the lack of any mention of an Appleton daughter or
grandchildren (or a third wife) in Robert Tyrell's 1507 will, and his
lack of mention in the 1483 will of Thomas Appleton, would seem to
rule out the possibility that Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton, was a
daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell (d. c.1507).
It should be pointed out that the only source we have which provides a
parentage for Thomas Appleton's wife - the 1612 Appleton Visitation
pedigree - is information obtained more than 100 years after the
events, and gets at least two facts incorrect. The first name of
Thomas's wife was Alice, not 'Joyce', and there is no way that Sir
Robert Tyrell could have been Master of the Horse to King Henry VIII,
as he died during the reign of Henry VII when he was in his 60s, at
least.
In conclusion, we know that the wife of Thomas Appleton was named
Alice, not Joyce. We know that he was dead by 1485 and she by 1529,
and that they were buried in Holy Trinity Church, Dartford, Kent. We
know that in addition to their eldest son & heir Roger Appleton, they
had six other children: Thomas, Humphrey, Margery, Anne, Elizabeth and
Katherine. We also know that Christian Hartishorn was not the mother
of Thomas Appleton's wife, and we know almost as certainly that Sir
Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe (d. c.1507), the 4th son of Sir Thomas
Tyrell of Heron (c.1411-1476) & Anne Marney, was not her father. All
of this is additions and corrections to the Appleton descent presented
in PA3.
Indeed the entire line of descent of Thomas Appleton's wife from
Edward I is now in question and needs further research. That there
was a Tyrell connection to the Appletons seems clear from the fact
that Thomas Appleton named a Humphrey Tyrell as one of his executors
in 1483, and his son Roger Appleton named an Edward Tyrell as his
supervisor in 1529, but neither specify a relationship to these Tyrell
men. Alice Appleton, if a Tyrell, needs to be descended from Sir
Thomas Tyrell & Anne Marney in order to maintain an Edward I descent,
and this can't be definite as there are certainly other Tyrell
branches from which she may have sprouted.
Cheers, ------Brad

OF Brown's Book, The Tyrells of England, pps 110-112 discusses this family with a chart (p. 112) with Sir Robert who died in 1508 married first to Christina Mackwillian and second to Elizabeth.

He shows by the first wife the children Thomas clerk, Margery, and (Sir) Robert who died 1568 possibly married to a Joyce.

Choldren shown for them include a Thomas and possibly the Joyce married to Thomas Appleton.

Doug Smith

[John]

Post by Doug

Post by Brad Verity
Per Plantagenet Ancestry (PA3), pp. 38-39 (sub Appleton), Thomas
Appleton, of Dartford, Kent, was married to Joyce Tyrrell, daughter of
Sir Robert Tyrrell & Christian Hartshorn.  The source for this was the
Appulton/Apleton pedigree in the 1612 Visitation of Essex (H.S.P. 13,
p. 134), which begins with: "Thomas Appulton of Kente Gentleman =
Joyce, daugh. to Sr Robert Tirrell of Essex Knight, Mr of the horse to
K. H. the 8th."  In the 1558 Tirrell/Tyrrell Visitation pedigree (same
volume, pp. 113-115), there is a "Joyce" (unmarried), daughter of "Sr
Robert Tirrell K. 4 sonn = Christian da. to John Harteshorn of
Bedfordshire = Edward Mackwilliams 1 husband." Sir Robert, in turn,
was the 4th son of "Sr Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Knt. 37 H. 6 = Emme da.
to Sr John Marney of Layer Marney in Essex".  It is thru Marney/
Sergeaux/Arundel/Despenser that "Joyce Tyrrell", wife of Thomas
Appleton of Dartford, derives a descent from Edward I, and so is
included in PA3.
But Joyce Tyrell Appleton never existed.  The will of Thomas Appleton
of Dartford, written on 13 Feb. 1483, and proved 11 May 1485, has been
transcribed by L.L. Duncan, and published online by the Kent
Archaeological Society's Medieval & Tudor Kent P.C.C. Wills project.
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk08/144.htm
Appleton mentions his wife Alice, eldest son Roger, second son Thomas,
3rd & youngest son Humphrey, and four daughters: Margery, Anne,
Elizabeth & Katherine.  He also makes his wife Alice, "Humfrey
Tyrell", and his brother-in-law Richard Martyn executors.  He asks to
be buried in Holy Trinity Church, Dartford, Kent, near his father's
tomb.  As he asks his executors to pay one of his mother's bequests,
we know she, like his father, had died by 1483.
Appleton's brother-in-law Richard Martyn of Dartford left a will dated
29 September 1485, and proved 27 October 1488, also transcribed &
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk08/150.htm
In it Martyn mentions his wife "Agnes".
Finally, the will of Roger Appleton of Dartford, son & heir of Thomas
Appleton, written on 12 April 1529, and proved on 2 July 1529, has
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk09/301.htm
In it, the heirs of "Agnes Martyn doughter of Roger Appulton and
Margery his wife decessed" are named in a remainder.  So we know that
Agnes wife of Richard Martyn of Dartford, was a daughter of Roger
Appleton of Dartford (father of Thomas Appleton) and Margery his
wife.  Curiously, the mother of Thomas Appleton (and wife of Roger
Appleton) is given as "Elizabeth, daughter of Henry Frowick, of London
and South Mimms, Hertfordshire" in PA3.  Either this is another error
(in either first name or parentage) stemming from Visitation
pedigrees, or Roger Appleton had an additional wife named Margery, and
Agnes Appleton Martyn was a half-sister of Thomas Appleton.  At
another point in the 1529 will, Roger refers to "Agnes Illenden myn
aunte", so its possible that Agnes Appleton married again after Thomas
Martyn's decease in 1488.
Roger Appleton also mentions in his 1529 will, "John Illenden and
Elizabeth his wife my suster".  Elizabeth Appleton Illenden is the
only sibling of Roger's mentioned in his will.  As she and her heirs
are mentioned in the remainder immediately before the heirs of Agnes
Martyn, it's likely that Elizabeth's husband John Illenden (a member
of the household of Roger Appleton) was the stepson of their aunt
Agnes Appleton Martyn Illenden.
Roger additionally mentions his son and heir Henry and his daughter
Jane, as well as "Goodlake and Henry Edwards my wifs childern" and
"Wynyfride Edwards".  These must have been the children of a previous
marriage of Roger's wife Anne Sulliard.  This is an addition then to
PA3, which has her as a descendant of Edward I thru Andrew/Stratton/
Luttrell/Courtenay.  As there is no other mention of Roger's wife in
his will, and no provision made for her, she most likely predeceased
him.  But as he does not make any provision for prayers for her soul
(as he does for his own, and those of his parents and his ancestors
and friends), the other possibility is that he and his wife were
estranged.  Roger states that his parents were buried in Holy Trinity
Church, Dartford, and later refers to "Thomas Appulton my father and
Alice his wife", so we know that Alice was indeed Roger's mother and
had died before 1529.  Roger names as his executors "John Wentworth
Esquier, Wm Sulyard gentilman and John Rogers my Fermor [i.e., farmer/
tenant] and supervisor Edward Tyrrell Esquier." Of these, John
Wentworth (later knighted) of North Elmsall was the husband of Roger's
daughter Jane, and William Sulyard was presumably related to Roger's
wife (perhaps her half-brother William).  Edward Tyrell may have been
a relative as well.
Could Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton (d. by 1485) and mother of Roger
Appleton (b. after 1462, d. 1529), have been the daughter of Sir
Robert Tyrell & Christian Hartishorn (d. 12 January 1506, bur. Grey
Friars church, Colchester, Essex)?  No.  Christian Hartishorn's first
husband Edward Macwilliam of Sambourne Hall did not died until 1495.
Could Alice have been the daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell by a previous
wife?  H.W. King, in the series "Ancient Wills", published in the
'Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society', transcribed the
will, written 30 Dec. 1507, of Sir Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe (Volume
http://books.google.ca/books?id=uaQWAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA175&dq=Robert+Tyrel...
In it, Tyrell mentions his former wife, Christian, whom he wishes to
be buried next to in the Grey Friars, Colchester, and his now wife
Elizabeth.  He also mentions his elder son Thomas Tyrell (who became a
priest), his younger son and heir Robert Tyrell, who settled at
Warwicks, Essex, and died 16 Oct. 1555, and his daughter Margery.  His
executors "Willm Alove, lerned man in the lawe, John Danyell, Robert
Teryll my son, and Walter Wyngfield and Willm Cooke, Doctr".  From the
wording of his will, Tyrell's three children sound as if they were
minors at the time, which fits with the chronology of the death of
their mother Christian's first husband in 1495.  They also match up in
key points to the children assigned to Robert Tyrell & Christian
Hartishorn in the 1558 Tyrell Visitation pedigree, which names their 2
sons and daughter: "Sr John Tirrell a prest", "Robart Tyrrell 2 sonne
= Joyce da. to Crosse" and "Joyce".  Two of the first names are wrong
(John the priest should be 'Thomas', and Joyce should be 'Margery'),
but the other information is correct.  Admittedly, Robert Tyrell had
these children late in his life.  He was the youngest son of Sir
Thomas Tyrell of Heron (c.1411-1476) and Anne Marney (b. at the latest
1414, the year her father died).  He was thus in his early 50s (at the
youngest) in 1495 when Christian Hartishorn was widowed.
Chronologically, there is time for him to have had a previous marriage
and have fathered a daughter who was herself a mother of seven in
1483.  But the lack of any mention of an Appleton daughter or
grandchildren (or a third wife) in Robert Tyrell's 1507 will, and his
lack of mention in the 1483 will of Thomas Appleton, would seem to
rule out the possibility that Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton, was a
daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell (d. c.1507).
It should be pointed out that the only source we have which provides a
parentage for Thomas Appleton's wife - the 1612 Appleton Visitation
pedigree - is information obtained more than 100 years after the
events, and gets at least two facts incorrect. The first name of
Thomas's wife was Alice, not 'Joyce', and there is no way that Sir
Robert Tyrell could have been Master of the Horse to King Henry VIII,
as he died during the reign of Henry VII when he was in his 60s, at
least.
In conclusion, we know that the wife of Thomas Appleton was named
Alice, not Joyce.  We know that he was dead by 1485 and she by 1529,
and that they were buried in Holy Trinity Church, Dartford, Kent.  We
know that in addition to their eldest son & heir Roger Appleton, they
had six other children: Thomas, Humphrey, Margery, Anne, Elizabeth and
Katherine.  We also know that Christian Hartishorn was not the mother
of Thomas Appleton's wife, and we know almost as certainly that Sir
Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe (d. c.1507), the 4th son of Sir Thomas
Tyrell of Heron (c.1411-1476) & Anne Marney, was not her father.  All
of this is additions and corrections to the Appleton descent presented
in PA3.
Indeed the entire line of descent of Thomas Appleton's wife from
Edward I is now in question and needs further research.  That there
was a Tyrell connection to the Appletons seems clear from the fact
that Thomas Appleton named a Humphrey Tyrell as one of his executors
in 1483, and his son Roger Appleton named an Edward Tyrell as his
supervisor in 1529, but neither specify a relationship to these Tyrell
men.  Alice Appleton, if a Tyrell, needs to be descended from Sir
Thomas Tyrell & Anne Marney in order to maintain an Edward I descent,
and this can't be definite as there are certainly other Tyrell
branches from which she may have sprouted.
Cheers,                ------Brad

OF Brown's Book, The Tyrells of England, pps 110-112 discusses this family with a chart (p. 112) with Sir Robert who died in 1508 married first to Christina Mackwillian and second to Elizabeth.
He shows by the first wife the children Thomas clerk, Margery, and (Sir) Robert who died 1568 possibly married to a Joyce.
Choldren shown for them include a Thomas and possibly the Joyce married to Thomas Appleton.
Doug Smith

To be clear on this, Brown's book on the Tyrells presents a chart on
page 112 which he labels as a "suggested pedigree". And his tentative
placement (indicated by dotted lines) of Joyce the supposed wife of
Thomas Appleton makes her a granddaughter, not daughter of the Sir
Roger Tyrell who had two wives, Christian and Elizabeth. He makes
this placement primarily based on the fact the wife of the younger Sir
Roger was named Joyce and hence the basis for the name of the daughter
Joyce.

He also identifies the probable source of the identification of Joyce,
daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell (unclear which one), as being Morant's
Essex. But he does not give a specific citation in Morant for this,
saying only that Morant mentions this in the context of the passage of
the manor of South Benfleet from the Coogeshalls to the Tyrells and
then to the Appletons. It should be noted that Brown is very critical
of Morant's treatment of the Tyrell genealogy (calling it "nonsense"
at at least one point), so Morant should perhaps be used with care
here.

It should also be noted, as Doug Smith notes above, that Brown's
"suggested pedigree" differs from the visitation pedigree in saying
that the maiden name of [the elder] Sir Robert Tyrell's first wife
Christian/Christine was Mackwilliam, not Hartshorn, and that it was
his 2nd wife Elizabeth (not the first) who married Edward
Mackwilliam. Brown discusses the differing sources on this point and
makes what he terms a "plausible" case for this. But this is
peripheral to the main point here - the existence or non-existence of
Joyce Tyrell.

BTW, for DR's benefit, Brown's book on the Tyrells is listed as
available in the catalog of the FHL in SLC.

[Brad Verity]

Post by John
To be clear on this, Brown's book on the Tyrells presents a chart on
page 112 which he labels as a "suggested pedigree".  And his tentative
placement (indicated by dotted lines) of Joyce the supposed wife of
Thomas Appleton makes her a granddaughter, not daughter of the Sir
Roger Tyrell who had two wives, Christian and Elizabeth.  He makes
this placement primarily based on the fact the wife of the younger Sir
Roger was named Joyce and hence the basis for the name of the daughter
Joyce.

I'm grateful to both you & Doug Smith, John, for checking this Brown
book on the Tyrells, which I don't have. It sounds as if Brown was
having the same difficulty placing Thomas Appleton's wife in the
Tyrell family. His solution turns out even more impossible
chronologically, but he didn't have the access to the Appleton wills
that we now do. To re-iterate: Alice (as we now know her name was,
not 'Joyce'), the wife of Thomas Appleton, was a mother of seven by
1483/4. We can assume that all seven children were under-age when
their father made his will, for he arranges that a bequest to his
eldest son Roger be given to him when he turns age 21. So Roger
Appleton (d. 1529) was born at some point after 1462/3. Let's
estimate that the childbearing of Thomas & Alice Appleton began
between 1465-1470. If Alice was about age 20 when she began bearing
children, then her birthdate would be about 1445-1450. We could
probably extend it to 1455 & still be safe. If she was a Tyrell, we
then need to look at potential parents for her that were having their
children in the 1440s/1450s. This removes Sir Robert Tyrell of
Wivenhoe (d. c.1507) & Christian Hartishorn (d. 1506) as her parents,
as they were not married until at least the 1480s. I've seen an
estimated birthdate of 1476 for Christian's son (by her first
husband), Henry Mackwillam of Stambourne Hall.

To our knowledge, Sir Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe had no wife prior to
Christian, so that removes him as father to Alice, wife of Thomas
Appleton. The Appleton pedigree of 1612 (as it's been published in
the Harleian series) does NOT say that the wife of Thomas Appleton was
a daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell & Christian Hartishorn. It says she
was a daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell, Master of the Horse to Henry
VIII. Now, it is probably not correct on that point: for Alice's
father to have been Master of the Horse to Henry VIII when he was
King, he would have to have survived until at least 1509, 25 years
after the death of his son-in-law Thomas Appleton. Not impossible,
but not likely either. Perhaps Alice's father was Master of the Horse
to a monarch previous to Henry VIII? Maybe Henry VII, or Henry VI?

It is also noteworthy that in the Tyrell pedigree from the 1558
Visitation, there is no mention of a marriage of any of their
daughters to an Appleton.

Post by John
He also identifies the probable source of the identification of Joyce,
daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell (unclear which one), as being Morant's
Essex.  But he does not give a specific citation in Morant for this,
saying only that Morant mentions this in the context of the passage of
the manor of South Benfleet from the Coogeshalls to the Tyrells and
then to the Appletons.  It should be noted that Brown is very critical
of Morant's treatment of the Tyrell genealogy (calling it "nonsense"
at at least one point), so Morant should perhaps be used with care
here.

It's great to dig back the layers and discover the root of the error.
Morant wrote in 1768, and may have used the 1612 Appleton Visitation
pedigree as a reference (though it wasn't published until 1878).
Someone back in 1612 (whether it was an Appleton descendant, or the
herald taking the Visitation we can't now know), stated three facts
about the wife of Thomas Appleton:

1) That her first name was Joyce (which we know now is incorrect - it
was 'Alice').
2) That she was the daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell
3) That her father Sir Robert was Master of the Horse to King Henry
VIII (which we know now from chronology is highly unlikely, if not
impossible).

Subsequently, someone else (one of the heralds, Morant, Brown,
Richardson, maybe each and all of them) went looking for a Joyce,
daughter of Robert in the Tyrell pedigrees, found a Joyce daughter of
Sir Robert Tyrell & Christian Hartishorn in the 1558 Tyrell Visitation
pedigree, ignored the fact that the pedigree did not assign any
husband to this Joyce, and assumed that she was the wife of Thomas
Appleton.

We now know that's not the case because 1) The chronology makes it
impossible; 2) The daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell & Christian
Hartishorn was actually named 'Margery' not Joyce; and 3) The wife of
Thomas Appleton was actually named 'Alice' not Joyce.

Post by John
It should also be noted, as Doug Smith notes above, that Brown's
"suggested pedigree" differs from the visitation pedigree in saying
that the maiden name of [the elder] Sir Robert Tyrell's first wife
Christian/Christine was Mackwilliam, not Hartshorn, and that it was
his 2nd wife Elizabeth (not the first) who married Edward
Mackwilliam.  Brown discusses the differing sources on this point and
makes what he terms a "plausible" case for this.

The evidence of the stained glass portrait of her in Stambourne Church
proves that Christian, wife of Edward Mackwilliam was a Hartishorn.
And the evidence of Sir Robert Tyrell's will of 1507 proves that he
survived his wife Christian, and so had to be her second husband. I
don't know what logic Brown uses in his argument, but it is pretty
straightforward that it was Sir Robert's first wife Christian who was
the wife of Edward Mackwilliam of Stambourne Hall. As Edward's son
Henry Mackwilliam was in possession of Stambourne Hall in 1506, Edward
was dead by that date. He died then before Sir Robert Tyrell and
cannot have married Tyrell's widow Elizabeth.

Post by John
Wedgwood's bio of Roger Appleton the MP (d. 1491) gives him only a
single wife:  Elizabeth, dau. of Henry Frowick and widow of John
Martin [sic}.  As DR has noted above, for chronological reasons this
Roger cannot be the father of Thomas Appleton (d. 1485).  And
similarly he cannot be the grandfather of Roger Appleton (b. ca. 1462)
who married Anne Sulliard.

Thanks for checking this, John. I didn't have the death date of 1491
for the M.P. Roger Appleton. Of course he couldn't be the same Roger
Appleton who fathered Thomas and Agnes. Both of their parents were
deceased when Thomas made his will in 1483/4. He also states that his
father was buried in Holy Trinity Church, Dartford.

Cheers, ------Brad

[J Cook]

Post by John
To be clear on this, Brown's book on the Tyrells presents a chart on
page 112 which he labels as a "suggested pedigree".  And his tentative
placement (indicated by dotted lines) of Joyce the supposed wife of
Thomas Appleton makes her a granddaughter, not daughter of the Sir
Roger Tyrell who had two wives, Christian and Elizabeth.  He makes
this placement primarily based on the fact the wife of the younger Sir
Roger was named Joyce and hence the basis for the name of the daughter
Joyce.

In "Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society, Volume 3"
H.W. King writes that Morant had badly screwed up the entire Appleton
pedigree, and that King has "recently prepared an elaborate genealogy
of this family, perfect down to the extinction of the Baronetage"
Given this work also has all of the Tyrrell wills above, perhaps
finding where this pedigree was deposited would provide some clues.
(1865)

[Doug]

Post by Brad Verity
Per Plantagenet Ancestry (PA3), pp. 38-39 (sub Appleton), Thomas
Appleton, of Dartford, Kent, was married to Joyce Tyrrell, daughter of
Sir Robert Tyrrell & Christian Hartshorn. The source for this was the
Appulton/Apleton pedigree in the 1612 Visitation of Essex (H.S.P. 13,
p. 134), which begins with: "Thomas Appulton of Kente Gentleman =
Joyce, daugh. to Sr Robert Tirrell of Essex Knight, Mr of the horse to
K. H. the 8th." In the 1558 Tirrell/Tyrrell Visitation pedigree (same
volume, pp. 113-115), there is a "Joyce" (unmarried), daughter of "Sr
Robert Tirrell K. 4 sonn = Christian da. to John Harteshorn of
Bedfordshire = Edward Mackwilliams 1 husband." Sir Robert, in turn,
was the 4th son of "Sr Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Knt. 37 H. 6 = Emme da.
to Sr John Marney of Layer Marney in Essex". It is thru Marney/
Sergeaux/Arundel/Despenser that "Joyce Tyrrell", wife of Thomas
Appleton of Dartford, derives a descent from Edward I, and so is
included in PA3.
But Joyce Tyrell Appleton never existed. The will of Thomas Appleton
of Dartford, written on 13 Feb. 1483, and proved 11 May 1485, has been
transcribed by L.L. Duncan, and published online by the Kent
Archaeological Society's Medieval & Tudor Kent P.C.C. Wills project.
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk08/144.htm
Appleton mentions his wife Alice, eldest son Roger, second son Thomas,
3rd & youngest son Humphrey, and four daughters: Margery, Anne,
Elizabeth & Katherine. He also makes his wife Alice, "Humfrey
Tyrell", and his brother-in-law Richard Martyn executors. He asks to
be buried in Holy Trinity Church, Dartford, Kent, near his father's
tomb. As he asks his executors to pay one of his mother's bequests,
we know she, like his father, had died by 1483.
Appleton's brother-in-law Richard Martyn of Dartford left a will dated
29 September 1485, and proved 27 October 1488, also transcribed &
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk08/150.htm
In it Martyn mentions his wife "Agnes".
Finally, the will of Roger Appleton of Dartford, son & heir of Thomas
Appleton, written on 12 April 1529, and proved on 2 July 1529, has
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk09/301.htm
In it, the heirs of "Agnes Martyn doughter of Roger Appulton and
Margery his wife decessed" are named in a remainder. So we know that
Agnes wife of Richard Martyn of Dartford, was a daughter of Roger
Appleton of Dartford (father of Thomas Appleton) and Margery his
wife. Curiously, the mother of Thomas Appleton (and wife of Roger
Appleton) is given as "Elizabeth, daughter of Henry Frowick, of London
and South Mimms, Hertfordshire" in PA3. Either this is another error
(in either first name or parentage) stemming from Visitation
pedigrees, or Roger Appleton had an additional wife named Margery, and
Agnes Appleton Martyn was a half-sister of Thomas Appleton. At
another point in the 1529 will, Roger refers to "Agnes Illenden myn
aunte", so its possible that Agnes Appleton married again after Thomas
Martyn's decease in 1488.
Roger Appleton also mentions in his 1529 will, "John Illenden and
Elizabeth his wife my suster". Elizabeth Appleton Illenden is the
only sibling of Roger's mentioned in his will. As she and her heirs
are mentioned in the remainder immediately before the heirs of Agnes
Martyn, it's likely that Elizabeth's husband John Illenden (a member
of the household of Roger Appleton) was the stepson of their aunt
Agnes Appleton Martyn Illenden.
Roger additionally mentions his son and heir Henry and his daughter
Jane, as well as "Goodlake and Henry Edwards my wifs childern" and
"Wynyfride Edwards". These must have been the children of a previous
marriage of Roger's wife Anne Sulliard. This is an addition then to
PA3, which has her as a descendant of Edward I thru Andrew/Stratton/
Luttrell/Courtenay. As there is no other mention of Roger's wife in
his will, and no provision made for her, she most likely predeceased
him. But as he does not make any provision for prayers for her soul
(as he does for his own, and those of his parents and his ancestors
and friends), the other possibility is that he and his wife were
estranged. Roger states that his parents were buried in Holy Trinity
Church, Dartford, and later refers to "Thomas Appulton my father and
Alice his wife", so we know that Alice was indeed Roger's mother and
had died before 1529. Roger names as his executors "John Wentworth
Esquier, Wm Sulyard gentilman and John Rogers my Fermor [i.e., farmer/
tenant] and supervisor Edward Tyrrell Esquier." Of these, John
Wentworth (later knighted) of North Elmsall was the husband of Roger's
daughter Jane, and William Sulyard was presumably related to Roger's
wife (perhaps her half-brother William). Edward Tyrell may have been
a relative as well.
Could Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton (d. by 1485) and mother of Roger
Appleton (b. after 1462, d. 1529), have been the daughter of Sir
Robert Tyrell & Christian Hartishorn (d. 12 January 1506, bur. Grey
Friars church, Colchester, Essex)? No. Christian Hartishorn's first
husband Edward Macwilliam of Sambourne Hall did not died until 1495.
Could Alice have been the daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell by a previous
wife? H.W. King, in the series "Ancient Wills", published in the
'Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society', transcribed the
will, written 30 Dec. 1507, of Sir Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe (Volume
http://books.google.ca/books?id=uaQWAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA175&dq=Robert+Tyrell+died+1507&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eHqVT6zAO4rhiAK71MHwDw&sqi=2&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Robert%20Tyrell%20died%201507&f=false
In it, Tyrell mentions his former wife, Christian, whom he wishes to
be buried next to in the Grey Friars, Colchester, and his now wife
Elizabeth. He also mentions his elder son Thomas Tyrell (who became a
priest), his younger son and heir Robert Tyrell, who settled at
Warwicks, Essex, and died 16 Oct. 1555, and his daughter Margery. His
executors "Willm Alove, lerned man in the lawe, John Danyell, Robert
Teryll my son, and Walter Wyngfield and Willm Cooke, Doctr". From the
wording of his will, Tyrell's three children sound as if they were
minors at the time, which fits with the chronology of the death of
their mother Christian's first husband in 1495. They also match up in
key points to the children assigned to Robert Tyrell & Christian
Hartishorn in the 1558 Tyrell Visitation pedigree, which names their 2
sons and daughter: "Sr John Tirrell a prest", "Robart Tyrrell 2 sonne
= Joyce da. to Crosse" and "Joyce". Two of the first names are wrong
(John the priest should be 'Thomas', and Joyce should be 'Margery'),
but the other information is correct. Admittedly, Robert Tyrell had
these children late in his life. He was the youngest son of Sir
Thomas Tyrell of Heron (c.1411-1476) and Anne Marney (b. at the latest
1414, the year her father died). He was thus in his early 50s (at the
youngest) in 1495 when Christian Hartishorn was widowed.
Chronologically, there is time for him to have had a previous marriage
and have fathered a daughter who was herself a mother of seven in
1483. But the lack of any mention of an Appleton daughter or
grandchildren (or a third wife) in Robert Tyrell's 1507 will, and his
lack of mention in the 1483 will of Thomas Appleton, would seem to
rule out the possibility that Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton, was a
daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell (d. c.1507).
It should be pointed out that the only source we have which provides a
parentage for Thomas Appleton's wife - the 1612 Appleton Visitation
pedigree - is information obtained more than 100 years after the
events, and gets at least two facts incorrect. The first name of
Thomas's wife was Alice, not 'Joyce', and there is no way that Sir
Robert Tyrell could have been Master of the Horse to King Henry VIII,
as he died during the reign of Henry VII when he was in his 60s, at
least.
In conclusion, we know that the wife of Thomas Appleton was named
Alice, not Joyce. We know that he was dead by 1485 and she by 1529,
and that they were buried in Holy Trinity Church, Dartford, Kent. We
know that in addition to their eldest son & heir Roger Appleton, they
had six other children: Thomas, Humphrey, Margery, Anne, Elizabeth and
Katherine. We also know that Christian Hartishorn was not the mother
of Thomas Appleton's wife, and we know almost as certainly that Sir
Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe (d. c.1507), the 4th son of Sir Thomas
Tyrell of Heron (c.1411-1476) & Anne Marney, was not her father. All
of this is additions and corrections to the Appleton descent presented
in PA3.
Indeed the entire line of descent of Thomas Appleton's wife from
Edward I is now in question and needs further research. That there
was a Tyrell connection to the Appletons seems clear from the fact
that Thomas Appleton named a Humphrey Tyrell as one of his executors
in 1483, and his son Roger Appleton named an Edward Tyrell as his
supervisor in 1529, but neither specify a relationship to these Tyrell
men. Alice Appleton, if a Tyrell, needs to be descended from Sir
Thomas Tyrell & Anne Marney in order to maintain an Edward I descent,
and this can't be definite as there are certainly other Tyrell
branches from which she may have sprouted.
Cheers, ------Brad

OF Brown (pps 106-110) shows Humphrey Tyrell of Warley as the brother of Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe. This could be the Humphrey you are looking for.

Doug Smith

[Doug]

Post by Brad Verity
Per Plantagenet Ancestry (PA3), pp. 38-39 (sub Appleton), Thomas
Appleton, of Dartford, Kent, was married to Joyce Tyrrell, daughter of
Sir Robert Tyrrell & Christian Hartshorn. The source for this was the
Appulton/Apleton pedigree in the 1612 Visitation of Essex (H.S.P. 13,
p. 134), which begins with: "Thomas Appulton of Kente Gentleman =
Joyce, daugh. to Sr Robert Tirrell of Essex Knight, Mr of the horse to
K. H. the 8th." In the 1558 Tirrell/Tyrrell Visitation pedigree (same
volume, pp. 113-115), there is a "Joyce" (unmarried), daughter of "Sr
Robert Tirrell K. 4 sonn = Christian da. to John Harteshorn of
Bedfordshire = Edward Mackwilliams 1 husband." Sir Robert, in turn,
was the 4th son of "Sr Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Knt. 37 H. 6 = Emme da.
to Sr John Marney of Layer Marney in Essex". It is thru Marney/
Sergeaux/Arundel/Despenser that "Joyce Tyrrell", wife of Thomas
Appleton of Dartford, derives a descent from Edward I, and so is
included in PA3.
But Joyce Tyrell Appleton never existed. The will of Thomas Appleton
of Dartford, written on 13 Feb. 1483, and proved 11 May 1485, has been
transcribed by L.L. Duncan, and published online by the Kent
Archaeological Society's Medieval & Tudor Kent P.C.C. Wills project.
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk08/144.htm
Appleton mentions his wife Alice, eldest son Roger, second son Thomas,
3rd & youngest son Humphrey, and four daughters: Margery, Anne,
Elizabeth & Katherine. He also makes his wife Alice, "Humfrey
Tyrell", and his brother-in-law Richard Martyn executors. He asks to
be buried in Holy Trinity Church, Dartford, Kent, near his father's
tomb. As he asks his executors to pay one of his mother's bequests,
we know she, like his father, had died by 1483.
Appleton's brother-in-law Richard Martyn of Dartford left a will dated
29 September 1485, and proved 27 October 1488, also transcribed &
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk08/150.htm
In it Martyn mentions his wife "Agnes".
Finally, the will of Roger Appleton of Dartford, son & heir of Thomas
Appleton, written on 12 April 1529, and proved on 2 July 1529, has
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk09/301.htm
In it, the heirs of "Agnes Martyn doughter of Roger Appulton and
Margery his wife decessed" are named in a remainder. So we know that
Agnes wife of Richard Martyn of Dartford, was a daughter of Roger
Appleton of Dartford (father of Thomas Appleton) and Margery his
wife. Curiously, the mother of Thomas Appleton (and wife of Roger
Appleton) is given as "Elizabeth, daughter of Henry Frowick, of London
and South Mimms, Hertfordshire" in PA3. Either this is another error
(in either first name or parentage) stemming from Visitation
pedigrees, or Roger Appleton had an additional wife named Margery, and
Agnes Appleton Martyn was a half-sister of Thomas Appleton. At
another point in the 1529 will, Roger refers to "Agnes Illenden myn
aunte", so its possible that Agnes Appleton married again after Thomas
Martyn's decease in 1488.
Roger Appleton also mentions in his 1529 will, "John Illenden and
Elizabeth his wife my suster". Elizabeth Appleton Illenden is the
only sibling of Roger's mentioned in his will. As she and her heirs
are mentioned in the remainder immediately before the heirs of Agnes
Martyn, it's likely that Elizabeth's husband John Illenden (a member
of the household of Roger Appleton) was the stepson of their aunt
Agnes Appleton Martyn Illenden.
Roger additionally mentions his son and heir Henry and his daughter
Jane, as well as "Goodlake and Henry Edwards my wifs childern" and
"Wynyfride Edwards". These must have been the children of a previous
marriage of Roger's wife Anne Sulliard. This is an addition then to
PA3, which has her as a descendant of Edward I thru Andrew/Stratton/
Luttrell/Courtenay. As there is no other mention of Roger's wife in
his will, and no provision made for her, she most likely predeceased
him. But as he does not make any provision for prayers for her soul
(as he does for his own, and those of his parents and his ancestors
and friends), the other possibility is that he and his wife were
estranged. Roger states that his parents were buried in Holy Trinity
Church, Dartford, and later refers to "Thomas Appulton my father and
Alice his wife", so we know that Alice was indeed Roger's mother and
had died before 1529. Roger names as his executors "John Wentworth
Esquier, Wm Sulyard gentilman and John Rogers my Fermor [i.e., farmer/
tenant] and supervisor Edward Tyrrell Esquier." Of these, John
Wentworth (later knighted) of North Elmsall was the husband of Roger's
daughter Jane, and William Sulyard was presumably related to Roger's
wife (perhaps her half-brother William). Edward Tyrell may have been
a relative as well.
Could Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton (d. by 1485) and mother of Roger
Appleton (b. after 1462, d. 1529), have been the daughter of Sir
Robert Tyrell & Christian Hartishorn (d. 12 January 1506, bur. Grey
Friars church, Colchester, Essex)? No. Christian Hartishorn's first
husband Edward Macwilliam of Sambourne Hall did not died until 1495.
Could Alice have been the daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell by a previous
wife? H.W. King, in the series "Ancient Wills", published in the
'Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society', transcribed the
will, written 30 Dec. 1507, of Sir Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe (Volume
http://books.google.ca/books?id=uaQWAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA175&dq=Robert+Tyrell+died+1507&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eHqVT6zAO4rhiAK71MHwDw&sqi=2&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Robert%20Tyrell%20died%201507&f=false
In it, Tyrell mentions his former wife, Christian, whom he wishes to
be buried next to in the Grey Friars, Colchester, and his now wife
Elizabeth. He also mentions his elder son Thomas Tyrell (who became a
priest), his younger son and heir Robert Tyrell, who settled at
Warwicks, Essex, and died 16 Oct. 1555, and his daughter Margery. His
executors "Willm Alove, lerned man in the lawe, John Danyell, Robert
Teryll my son, and Walter Wyngfield and Willm Cooke, Doctr". From the
wording of his will, Tyrell's three children sound as if they were
minors at the time, which fits with the chronology of the death of
their mother Christian's first husband in 1495. They also match up in
key points to the children assigned to Robert Tyrell & Christian
Hartishorn in the 1558 Tyrell Visitation pedigree, which names their 2
sons and daughter: "Sr John Tirrell a prest", "Robart Tyrrell 2 sonne
= Joyce da. to Crosse" and "Joyce". Two of the first names are wrong
(John the priest should be 'Thomas', and Joyce should be 'Margery'),
but the other information is correct. Admittedly, Robert Tyrell had
these children late in his life. He was the youngest son of Sir
Thomas Tyrell of Heron (c.1411-1476) and Anne Marney (b. at the latest
1414, the year her father died). He was thus in his early 50s (at the
youngest) in 1495 when Christian Hartishorn was widowed.
Chronologically, there is time for him to have had a previous marriage
and have fathered a daughter who was herself a mother of seven in
1483. But the lack of any mention of an Appleton daughter or
grandchildren (or a third wife) in Robert Tyrell's 1507 will, and his
lack of mention in the 1483 will of Thomas Appleton, would seem to
rule out the possibility that Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton, was a
daughter of Sir Robert Tyrell (d. c.1507).
It should be pointed out that the only source we have which provides a
parentage for Thomas Appleton's wife - the 1612 Appleton Visitation
pedigree - is information obtained more than 100 years after the
events, and gets at least two facts incorrect. The first name of
Thomas's wife was Alice, not 'Joyce', and there is no way that Sir
Robert Tyrell could have been Master of the Horse to King Henry VIII,
as he died during the reign of Henry VII when he was in his 60s, at
least.
In conclusion, we know that the wife of Thomas Appleton was named
Alice, not Joyce. We know that he was dead by 1485 and she by 1529,
and that they were buried in Holy Trinity Church, Dartford, Kent. We
know that in addition to their eldest son & heir Roger Appleton, they
had six other children: Thomas, Humphrey, Margery, Anne, Elizabeth and
Katherine. We also know that Christian Hartishorn was not the mother
of Thomas Appleton's wife, and we know almost as certainly that Sir
Robert Tyrell of Wivenhoe (d. c.1507), the 4th son of Sir Thomas
Tyrell of Heron (c.1411-1476) & Anne Marney, was not her father. All
of this is additions and corrections to the Appleton descent presented
in PA3.
Indeed the entire line of descent of Thomas Appleton's wife from
Edward I is now in question and needs further research. That there
was a Tyrell connection to the Appletons seems clear from the fact
that Thomas Appleton named a Humphrey Tyrell as one of his executors
in 1483, and his son Roger Appleton named an Edward Tyrell as his
supervisor in 1529, but neither specify a relationship to these Tyrell
men. Alice Appleton, if a Tyrell, needs to be descended from Sir
Thomas Tyrell & Anne Marney in order to maintain an Edward I descent,
and this can't be definite as there are certainly other Tyrell
branches from which she may have sprouted.
Cheers, ------Brad

Just a pure guess but i would place Alice as a daughter of the Sir Thomas who married Anne Marney and therefore a sister of Robert of Wivenhoe and Humphrey of Warley. That would explain the relationships and fit with the chronology.


Doug Smith

[Brad Verity]

Just a pure guess but i would place Alice as a daughter of the Sir Thomas who married Anne Marney and therefore a sister of Robert of Wivenhoe and Humphrey of Warley.  That would explain the relationships  and fit with the chronology.

The chronology works fairly well. Anne Marney was born by 1414, say
between 1410 & 1414, so she could have borne children until the early
1450s. If Alice, wife of Thomas Appleton (d. 1485), was one of her
youngest children, she was born in the late 1440s/early 1450s, and
could easily be a mother of seven by 1483/4.

The Tyrrell pedigree in the 1558 Visitation of Essex is here:

http://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess13byumetc#page/110/mode/2up

It assigns three daughters to Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron (d. 1476) &
Anne Marney:

1) "Anne ux. Edmond Audeley"
2) "Anne ux. John Darcey of Toleshunt"
3) "Elizabeth uxor Robt. Darcey of Danbery 2ly Richard Hawte"

I haven't discovered anything about daughter #1 above, Anne Tyrrell,
wife of Edmund Audley. As the pedigree contains several errors, it's
possible that this is another one. Certainly it would be strange for
Sir Thomas Tyrrell & Anne Marney to give two daughters the same first
name, 'Anne'. Neither have I found anything on the Edmund Audley said
to be her husband.

Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron married three of his children to three
children of Sir Robert Darcy of Maldon (c.1380-1448) & Alice
Fitzlangley:

1) Sir William Tyrrell, his eldest son & heir, was married to Eleanor
Darcy, daughter of Sir Robert above
2) Elizabeth Tyrrell was married to Sir Robert Darcy of Maldon
(1420-1469), elder son & heir of Sir Robert above
3) Anne Tyrrell was married to John (often called 'Thomas' by mistake)
Darcy of Tolleshunt (d. 1485), younger son of Sir Robert above

The Darcy pedigree from the 1558 Visitation of Essex is here:

http://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess13byumetc#page/44/mode/2up

That the husband of Sir Thomas Tyrrell's daughter Anne was named
'John' Darcy and not 'Thomas' is proved by Sir Thomas Tyrrell's 1475
will, in which she and her husband were given a bequest:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=HekGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=Honorary+Secretary,+the+Rev.+E.+L.+Cutts,+read+before+the+Society&source=bl&ots=6-nluuRhmy&sig=CUfEV1cXv4lcA5gn1OCTZX37jSo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FR6gT_cWkdiJAoiqjYUC&sqi=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Honorary%20Secretary%2C%20the%20Rev.%20E.%20L.%20Cutts%2C%20read%20before%20the%20Society&f=false

Sir Thomas also mentions his third & fourth sons Humphrey and Robert
Tyrrell, and his deceased eldest son Sir William Tyrrell. There is no
mention of the second son, Thomas Tyrrell of South Ockendon Hall,
probably because he also predeceased his father. The fact that there
is no mention of Alice or Thomas Appleton in Sir Thomas Tyrrell's will
does not preclude her from being his daughter, as there is apparently
no mention of his daughter Elizabeth, widow of Sir Robert Darcy, or of
her second husband Richard Haute (though it is possible that "Richard
Hunte", one of the men Sir Thomas asks to help execute his will,
should be "Richard Haute"), both of whom were alive when Sir Thomas
made his will in 1475.

But the 1558 Tyrrell Visitation pedigree also assigns 8 daughters to
Sir William Tyrrell of Gipping (c.1415-1462), younger brother of Sir
Thomas Tyrrell of Heron (c.1411-1476), one of whom is named "Alice".
The pedigree only assigns one of those daughters (Eleanor) a husband,
but at least two of the others (Elizabeth and Dorothy) had husbands,
so it's very possible that this Alice could have been the wife of
Thomas Appleton.

Cheers, -----Brad

[Brad Verity]

Post by Brad Verity
http://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess13byumetc#page/110/mode/2up
It assigns three daughters to Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron (d. 1476) &
1) "Anne ux. Edmond Audeley"
2) "Anne ux. John Darcey of Toleshunt"
3) "Elizabeth uxor Robt. Darcey of Danbery 2ly Richard Hawte"
I haven't discovered anything about daughter #1 above, Anne Tyrrell,
wife of Edmund Audley.  As the pedigree contains several errors, it's
possible that this is another one.  Certainly it would be strange for
Sir Thomas Tyrrell & Anne Marney to give two daughters the same first
name, 'Anne'.  Neither have I found anything on the Edmund Audley said
to be her husband.

I want to thank Karen Sims for sending me a message offlist pointing
out the Edmund Audley/Anne Tyrell marriage, which can be seen in the
Audley pedigree from the 1563 Visitation of Norfolk:
http://archive.org/stream/visitationnorfo00dashgoog#page/n142/mode/2up

"Edmund Audley of Great Pagrave, Esq. = Anne, da. of Sir Thomas
Tyrrill, Knt., 2 wife, living 17 Eliz." As the second wife of Edmund
Audley of Palgrave (c.1516-1585), Anne Tyrell of course couldn't have
been the daughter of Sir Thomas Tyrell of Heron Hall (c.1411-1476) and
Anne Marney, as the Tyrell pedigree makes her out to be.

The Awdeley pedigree in another version of the 1563 Visitation of
Norfolk has Anne as the daughter of "Sir Thomas Terrell of Warley":
http://archive.org/stream/visitacionievisi32ryew#page/10/mode/2up

The Tyrells of Little Warley Hall were descended from Sir Thomas
Tyrell (c.1411-1476) & Anne Marney. But per the Tyrell pedigree in
the 1558 Visitation of Essex, there does not appear to have been a
Thomas Tyrell in that branch of the family.

Karen Sims has identified Elizabeth, the second wife of Sir John
Audley of Swaffham Market (d. 1530), the grandfather of Edmund Audley
of Palgrave (c.1516-1585), as the daughter of William Chedworth of
London, and widow of Thomas Blake (d. 1505). Elizabeth was thus a
first cousin of Margaret Chedworth, Duchess of Norfolk, the second
wife of John Howard, 1st Duke of Norfolk (d. 1485). Karen is
currently in the process of transcribing the 1541 will of Elizabeth
Chedworth Blake Audley. In it, she makes bequests to James, Margery,
Charles & Philip Tyrell. Charles, Philip & Margery Tyrell were
siblings. Charles Tyrell (d. 1570) married Margery Golding, the widow
of the Earl of Oxford. His sister Margery Tyrell married Richard
Garneys of Boyland Hall, Norfolk (d. 1586). Charles, Philip & Margery
were the children of James Tyrell of Columbine Hall, Suffolk. James,
in turn, was likely the grandson (but possibly the second son - the
Tyrell pedigree from the 1558 Visitation of Essex doesn't carry the
Columbine Hall line very far down) of another James Tyrell of
Columbine Hall (c.1475-1538) and his wife Anne Hotoft. This first
James Tyrell of Columbine was the younger son of Sir James Tyrell of
Gipping (c.1452-1502, the infamous alleged murderer of the Princes in
the Tower), and his wife Anne Arundell. The will of Charles Tyrell
(d. 1570) has been transcribed here:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:IAnQpo6XihAJ:www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-52_f_105.pdf+Charles+Tyrell+died+1570&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESipGB6HfaNtOdJePGJt4sajKhBb0B1VA2ZXsEoV_5lhiuNdZinT6tN-2UgtYyzd4A8xl7lcqp8jNKzQLiXiI-ubFSZYrLTrZmCp2su1FXO-dAvF3T-lNttMKJL8xScpSkM8fPyF&sig=AHIEtbT0euDh_as18UR3DP1k9v9eXJkJIg

Given this connection, perhaps Anne Tyrell, second wife of Edmund
Audley of Palgrave (c.1516-1585), was rather from the Columbine Hall
branch of the family?

At any rate, there are only two undisputed daughters of Sir Thomas
Tyrell of Heron Hall (c.1411-1476) & Anne Marney: Elizabeth, wife
first of Sir Robert Darcy of Maldon, then of Richard Haute of Ightham
Mote; and Anne, wife of John Darcy of Tolleshunt.

Cheers, ---------Brad

[s***@gmail.com]

Post by Brad Verity

Post by Brad Verity
http://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess13byumetc#page/110/mode/2up
It assigns three daughters to Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron (d. 1476) &
1) "Anne ux. Edmond Audeley"
2) "Anne ux. John Darcey of Toleshunt"
3) "Elizabeth uxor Robt. Darcey of Danbery 2ly Richard Hawte"
I haven't discovered anything about daughter #1 above, Anne Tyrrell,
wife of Edmund Audley.  As the pedigree contains several errors, it's
possible that this is another one.  Certainly it would be strange for
Sir Thomas Tyrrell & Anne Marney to give two daughters the same first
name, 'Anne'.  Neither have I found anything on the Edmund Audley said
to be her husband.

I want to thank Karen Sims for sending me a message offlist pointing
out the Edmund Audley/Anne Tyrell marriage, which can be seen in the
http://archive.org/stream/visitationnorfo00dashgoog#page/n142/mode/2up
"Edmund Audley of Great Pagrave, Esq. = Anne, da. of Sir Thomas
Tyrrill, Knt., 2 wife, living 17 Eliz." As the second wife of Edmund
Audley of Palgrave (c.1516-1585), Anne Tyrell of course couldn't have
been the daughter of Sir Thomas Tyrell of Heron Hall (c.1411-1476) and
Anne Marney, as the Tyrell pedigree makes her out to be.
The Awdeley pedigree in another version of the 1563 Visitation of
http://archive.org/stream/visitacionievisi32ryew#page/10/mode/2up
The Tyrells of Little Warley Hall were descended from Sir Thomas
Tyrell (c.1411-1476) & Anne Marney. But per the Tyrell pedigree in
the 1558 Visitation of Essex, there does not appear to have been a
Thomas Tyrell in that branch of the family.
Karen Sims has identified Elizabeth, the second wife of Sir John
Audley of Swaffham Market (d. 1530), the grandfather of Edmund Audley
of Palgrave (c.1516-1585), as the daughter of William Chedworth of
London, and widow of Thomas Blake (d. 1505). Elizabeth was thus a
first cousin of Margaret Chedworth, Duchess of Norfolk, the second
wife of John Howard, 1st Duke of Norfolk (d. 1485). Karen is
currently in the process of transcribing the 1541 will of Elizabeth
Chedworth Blake Audley. In it, she makes bequests to James, Margery,
Charles & Philip Tyrell. Charles, Philip & Margery Tyrell were
siblings. Charles Tyrell (d. 1570) married Margery Golding, the widow
of the Earl of Oxford. His sister Margery Tyrell married Richard
Garneys of Boyland Hall, Norfolk (d. 1586). Charles, Philip & Margery
were the children of James Tyrell of Columbine Hall, Suffolk. James,
in turn, was likely the grandson (but possibly the second son - the
Tyrell pedigree from the 1558 Visitation of Essex doesn't carry the
Columbine Hall line very far down) of another James Tyrell of
Columbine Hall (c.1475-1538) and his wife Anne Hotoft. This first
James Tyrell of Columbine was the younger son of Sir James Tyrell of
Gipping (c.1452-1502, the infamous alleged murderer of the Princes in
the Tower), and his wife Anne Arundell. The will of Charles Tyrell
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:IAnQpo6XihAJ:www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-52_f_105.pdf+Charles+Tyrell+died+1570&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESipGB6HfaNtOdJePGJt4sajKhBb0B1VA2ZXsEoV_5lhiuNdZinT6tN-2UgtYyzd4A8xl7lcqp8jNKzQLiXiI-ubFSZYrLTrZmCp2su1FXO-dAvF3T-lNttMKJL8xScpSkM8fPyF&sig=AHIEtbT0euDh_as18UR3DP1k9v9eXJkJIg
Given this connection, perhaps Anne Tyrell, second wife of Edmund
Audley of Palgrave (c.1516-1585), was rather from the Columbine Hall
branch of the family?
At any rate, there are only two undisputed daughters of Sir Thomas
Tyrell of Heron Hall (c.1411-1476) & Anne Marney: Elizabeth, wife
first of Sir Robert Darcy of Maldon, then of Richard Haute of Ightham
Mote; and Anne, wife of John Darcy of Tolleshunt.
Cheers, ---------Brad

Hi Brad


The Charles Tyrell who married the widow of John de Vere, Earl of Oxford is said by CP X: 249 to have been the sixth son of Thomas Tyrell and Constance Blount.

If that Charles were proved to be a son of James Tyrell of Columbine than a correction to CP is in the offing.

Doug Smith

[Steve Riggan]

Thanks for clarifying, Brad. Anne Tyrrell and Robert Darcy are in my Amy Kempe Skipwith line. I have seen Anne Marney's name as "Emma" in posted genealogies and have never figured what source that came from. In fact, it was the first time I had seen an alternative name for her.

Steve
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <***@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 18:28:44
To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Subject: Re: Appleton/Tyrell: A Tangle

Post by Brad Verity
http://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess13byumetc#page/110/mode/2up
It assigns three daughters to Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron (d. 1476) &
1) "Anne ux. Edmond Audeley"
2) "Anne ux. John Darcey of Toleshunt"
3) "Elizabeth uxor Robt. Darcey of Danbery 2ly Richard Hawte"
I haven't discovered anything about daughter #1 above, Anne Tyrrell,
wife of Edmund Audley.  As the pedigree contains several errors, it's
possible that this is another one.  Certainly it would be strange for
Sir Thomas Tyrrell & Anne Marney to give two daughters the same first
name, 'Anne'.  Neither have I found anything on the Edmund Audley said
to be her husband.

I want to thank Karen Sims for sending me a message offlist pointing
out the Edmund Audley/Anne Tyrell marriage, which can be seen in the
Audley pedigree from the 1563 Visitation of Norfolk:
http://archive.org/stream/visitationnorfo00dashgoog#page/n142/mode/2up

"Edmund Audley of Great Pagrave, Esq. = Anne, da. of Sir Thomas
Tyrrill, Knt., 2 wife, living 17 Eliz."  As the second wife of Edmund
Audley of Palgrave (c.1516-1585), Anne Tyrell of course couldn't have
been the daughter of Sir Thomas Tyrell of Heron Hall (c.1411-1476) and
Anne Marney, as the Tyrell pedigree makes her out to be.

The Awdeley pedigree in another version of the 1563 Visitation of
Norfolk has Anne as the daughter of "Sir Thomas Terrell of Warley":
http://archive.org/stream/visitacionievisi32ryew#page/10/mode/2up

The Tyrells of Little Warley Hall were descended from Sir Thomas
Tyrell (c.1411-1476) & Anne Marney.  But per the Tyrell pedigree in
the 1558 Visitation of Essex, there does not appear to have been a
Thomas Tyrell in that branch of the family.

Karen Sims has identified Elizabeth, the second wife of Sir John
Audley of Swaffham Market (d. 1530), the grandfather of Edmund Audley
of Palgrave (c.1516-1585), as the daughter of William Chedworth of
London, and widow of Thomas Blake (d. 1505).  Elizabeth was thus a
first cousin of Margaret Chedworth, Duchess of Norfolk, the second
wife of John Howard, 1st Duke of Norfolk (d. 1485).  Karen is
currently in the process of transcribing the 1541 will of Elizabeth
Chedworth Blake Audley.  In it, she makes bequests to James, Margery,
Charles & Philip Tyrell.  Charles, Philip & Margery Tyrell were
siblings.  Charles Tyrell (d. 1570) married Margery Golding, the widow
of the Earl of Oxford.  His sister Margery Tyrell married Richard
Garneys of Boyland Hall, Norfolk (d. 1586).  Charles, Philip & Margery
were the children of James Tyrell of Columbine Hall, Suffolk.  James,
in turn, was likely the grandson (but possibly the second son - the
Tyrell pedigree from the 1558 Visitation of Essex doesn't carry the
Columbine Hall line very far down) of another James Tyrell of
Columbine Hall (c.1475-1538) and his wife Anne Hotoft.  This first
James Tyrell of Columbine was the younger son of Sir James Tyrell of
Gipping (c.1452-1502, the infamous alleged murderer of the Princes in
the Tower), and his wife Anne Arundell.  The will of Charles Tyrell
(d. 1570) has been transcribed here:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&amp;q=cache:IAnQpo6XihAJ:www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-52_f_105.pdf&#43;Charles&#43;Tyrell&#43;died&#43;1570&amp;hl=en&amp;gl=ca&amp;pid=bl&amp;srcid=ADGEESipGB6HfaNtOdJePGJt4sajKhBb0B1VA2ZXsEoV_5lhiuNdZinT6tN-2UgtYyzd4A8xl7lcqp8jNKzQLiXiI-ubFSZYrLTrZmCp2su1FXO-dAvF3T-lNttMKJL8xScpSkM8fPyF&amp;sig=AHIEtbT0euDh_as18UR3DP1k9v9eXJkJIg

Given this connection, perhaps Anne Tyrell, second wife of Edmund
Audley of Palgrave (c.1516-1585), was rather from the Columbine Hall
branch of the family?

At any rate, there are only two undisputed daughters of Sir Thomas
Tyrell of Heron Hall (c.1411-1476) & Anne Marney: Elizabeth, wife
first of Sir Robert Darcy of Maldon, then of Richard Haute of Ightham
Mote; and Anne, wife of John Darcy of Tolleshunt.

Cheers,                            ---------Brad
 
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[Brad Verity]

Post by Steve Riggan
Thanks for clarifying, Brad. Anne Tyrrell and Robert Darcy are in my Amy Kempe Skipwith line. I have seen Anne Marney's name as "Emma" in posted genealogies and have never figured what source that came from. In fact, it was the first time I had seen an alternative name for her.

Steve, 18th century antiquarian Philip Morant is the source where the
name 'Emma' instead of 'Anne' Marney came from. H.W. King (1865)
explains: "Sir Thomas Tyrell married Anne (not Emma as Morant says in
several places) daughter of Sir William Marney, of Layer Marney,
ancestor of the Lord Marney."

Post by Steve Riggan
The Charles Tyrell who married the widow of John de Vere, Earl of Oxford is said by CP X: 249 to have been the sixth son of Thomas Tyrell and Constance Blount.
If that Charles were proved to be a son of James Tyrell of Columbine than a correction to CP is in the offing.

Doug, Thomas Tyrell and Constance Blount did have a son named
Charles. But the introduction to the will of Charles Tyrell that I
linked to in my previous post details how the husband of Margery
Golding was not the same Charles Tyrell as their son. So, yes, a
correction to CP is in order.

Cheers, -------Brad