In addition to this compelling evidence presented by John is a charter
Weaverthorpe to St Peter's, York. This charter was witnessed by the
presumably nephews of Reginald.
"Carta D. Reginaldi filii Herberti, de Ecclesia de Wiverthorpe
Reginaldus filius Petri, salutem in Domino. Noveritis me dedisse,
pertinentiis. Habendam et tenendam eisdem decano et capitulo, et
exactione in perpetuum. Ego vero Reginaldus et haeredes mei
warrantizabimus, &c. eidem decano et capitulo, contra omnes gentes in
perpetuum, &c. In cujus rei testimonium praesens scriptum sigillo meo
domino Willielmo de Ros, domino Roberto de Thweng; domino W. de
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum VI(3):1196, Num. CXII
anciently held by the Archbishop of York. It was worth 30l. p.a. in
William the Conqueror it was considered waste in the Domesday account.
Post by John P. Ravilious
A. Werthorp (Wiverthorpe), Yorks. was one of the holdings of the
FitzHerberts (later lords of Blaen Llyfni), and was to be found later
in the maritagium of Mary de Ros, wife of Sir William de Braose of
Bramber and Gower.
1. Grant, 1109x1119 by Thomas, Archbishop of York to 'Lord
Herbert the Chamberlain, and his son in fee Londesbrough, with
Tolthorp, Wiverthorpe, ....' ["Thomas Dei gratia Eboracensis
archiepiscopus,.... Notum vobis facio, quod ego dedi domino
Herberto Camerario, et filio ejus, in feodum Laundesbrough,
cum Tolethorpe, Wiverthorpe, ...."] 
2. Confirmation, 1135x1143 by King Stephen to 'William the
treasurer of York, my chaplain.... Know that I have grant to
the same William those churches held in fee by Herbert his
brother, .... that is, the church of Wiverthorpe, the church
of Laundesbrough, and teh church of 'Cleram', with chapels
and appurtenances; and the church of Staunton .... And will
and precept that these be held well, peacefully and honorably
just as by his father and his brother Herbert to whom these
were given and granted , and just as the charter of King
Henry attests. ' ["Stephanus rex Angliae ... Sciatis me
concessisse eidem Willielmo [thesaurarius Eborum, capellanus
meus] ecclesias quas tenet de feodo Herberti fratris sui,...
scilicet ecclesiam de Wiverthorpe, ecclesiam de Laundesbrough
et ecclesiam de Clera[m], cum capellis et pertinentibus; et
eccelsiam de Staunton cum terris et decimis omnibus et rebus
eis pertinentibus. Et volo et praecipio, quod bene et in
pace, et honorifice tenent, sicut pater ejus et frater ejus
Herbertus eas ei dederunt et concesserunt, et sicut carta
regis Henr. testatur. Testibus, G. archiepisc. Eborum; D.
episcopo Elm. et Johanne episc. Sag. et Roberto de Veer; et
Willielmo Martell, apud Eborum. ' 
3. Confirmation, 1154x1181 by Stephen, son of Herbert the
Chamberlain, of the grant by William de Scures to St. Peter's
of York of the church of Blessed Mary of Thornton and the
advowson of the church of Acklam. 
4. Grant, 1264x1269 by Reginald fitz Peter (d. 1285) to St.
Peter's of York of the advowson of Wiverthorpe [final concord
between Reginald fitz Peter, querent and William, dean of St.
Peter's, in the court of King Henry III at Westminster,
53 Hen. III]. 
Wiverthorpe [als. Werthorp, Weaverthorpe], co. Yorks. or a moiety
thereof was evidently the maritagium of Lucy, daughter of Piers fitz
Herbert and wife of Robert de Ros. Her granddaughter Mary de Ros had
lands in 'Werthorp' as her maritagium when married to Sir William de
B. Chronology supports Piers fitz Herbert as Lucy's father.
Sir William de Ros and his wife Lucy were likely born say
1200-1210. Their eldest grandson, Sir William de Ros of Helmsley, was
born ca. 1253-1255, and evidently before 27 June 1255 (he was stated
as being aged '30 and more' at one of his father's IPMs, 27 June
1285). The Yorkshire IPM states he was '32 and more' on 12 June 1285
Piers fitz Herbert and his wife Alice were married ca. 28 Nov
1203, the date of their marriage settlement . Lucy could have
easily been their daughter: it is virtually impossible for their son
Reynold (born say 1204-1214) to have been the great-grandfather of Sir
William de Ros (b. ca. 1253/55, or before).
C. Onomastic evidence supports the FitzHerbert identification of
The issue of Sir William de Ros and his wife Lucy include a
second son Piers, and a fifth son Herbert, both FitzHerbert names. We
have a charter of Sir Robert, witnessed by his brothers Sir Peter, Sir
William, Sir Alexander and Sir Herbert [ " Hiis testibus: Dominis
Petro de Ros, Willelmo de Ros, Alexandro de Ros, Herberto de Ros,
militibus et fratribus,..." ] enfeoffing Thomas de Werke, chaplain, in
certain lands in Helmsley, dated 1264x1285 . Evidently, Piers de
Ros was named for his maternal grandfather. As to the two known
daughters, the source of the name of Lucy is obvious; that of Alice
(wife of John Comyn of Badenoch, whose maritagium included the manor
of Ulceby, co. Lincs.] was taken from Alice 'fitz Roger', wife of
Piers fitz Herbert.
The evidence for this identification I find is quite compelling,
to the point where I see no basis for dispute. That is, that Lucy was
the sister (not daughter) of Sir Reynold fitz Piers, and daughter of
Piers fitz Herbert of Blaen Llyfni.
 Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum VI(3):1196, Num. CIX.
 Dugdale, ibid., Num. CX.
 Dugdale, ibid., Num. CXI.
 Dugdale, ibid., Nums. CXII, CXIII.
 CP II:302, note (i).
 Yorks. Inqs. II:32-36.
 CP V:465.
 Rutland MSS. [HMC series], IV:84, no. (21).
Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
? ? Here is the de Ros ancestry of Agnes de Ros, as I currently have
it. ?Of course, any criticism or added documentation would be welcome.
188.8.131.52.1 Sir William de Ros
Death: ? ? ca 1264
Burial: ? ?Kirkham
of Helmsley in Holderness, co. York
heir of his aunt Hilaire on her death (1241), inherited her
?share of the Trussebut fee [her share consisted of 3 1/2
?knights' fees, including Melton, Copgrave and Stivelingflet
?(Stillingfleet), incl. West Cottingwith [Yorks. Inqs. I:10,
?IPM of her sister Agatha Trussebut; also VCH East Riding
on pilgrimage to Santiago del Compostela, 1252
'Will'm de Ros', knight
? ?Arms: ?' Gules three water bougets argent ' [ H S London,
?Rolls of Arms, Henry III, Aspilogia 2, Society of Antiquaries,
?London, 1967 - ca. 1252 or later, B 66 ]
Spouse: ? ?Lucy 'filia Piers'
Death: ? ? aft 1265
Father: ? ?Piers fitz Herbert, of Blaen Llyfni (->1235)
Mother: ? ?Alice fitz Roger
? 'she is said by Dugdale ... to have been da. of "Reginald Fitz-piers of
? Blewbeny in Wales". ?If she belonged to this family, she was presumably
? ... da. of Piers FitzHerbert, lords of the Honour of Brecknock, whose
? castle was at Blaenllyfni.'
Do you have any firmer sources for this ancestry?
?????????????For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/-Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -