Discussion:
Parentage of Bertha von Kirchberg, wife of Hugo [VI.] Graf von Montfort-Tosters
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Carl-Henry Geschwind
2021-03-09 15:34:03 UTC
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In a charter from 1360 (published in Adam Friedrich Glafey, Anecdotorum S.R.J. Historiam Ac Jus Publicum Illustrantium Collectio (Dresden: 1734), pp. 364-366, nr. CCL, viewable at https://books.google.com/books?id=BPxgAAAAcAAJ), the estate of Graue Hugen von Montfort was divided between his two daughters Nese (i.e., Agnes) and Anna (from the further history of these two daughters it is apparent that this Hugo is the same as Hugo Graf von Montfort, Herr zu Tosters, who had still been alive in 1351). The mother of the girls was named as "Berchte" (i.e., Bertha); she in turn was named as daughter of Graue Wilhelm von Kirchperg, who was appointed as guardian for the daughters in case there should be a court dispute about the division. This implies that this Wilhelm Graf von Kirchberg was still alive in 1360.

In Genealogics, following ESNF 12:52, this Bertha von Kirchberg has been assigned not as the daughter, but as the sister of Wilhelm I. Graf von Kirchberg, who died 1365/66 leaving only one daughter Agnes (https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00112580&tree=LEO). This Wilhelm I. Graf von Kirchberg did indeed have a sister Bertha - we know this from the division of this Wilhelm's properties, as two-thirds went to his son-in-law Ulrich von Matsch, while one-third had gone (as a dowry) to his sister Bertha. But that Bertha had been married to a Heinrich Graf von Werdenberg, who in 1369 sold his third of the properties to Ulrich von Matsch, incidentally noting that his wife Bertha von Kirchberg had died around 1352 (see Justinian Ladurner, "Die Vögte von Matsch, später auch Grafen von Kirchberg," Zeitschrift des Ferdinandeums für Tirol und Vorarlberg, 3rd ser., vol. 16 (1871), pp. 5-292, on pp. 180-181, viewable at http://zeitschrift.tiroler-landesmuseen.at/index.php?mybuch=Ferdinandeum_1871_Folge_3_Bd16&mypage=180).

The Grafen von Kirchberg were a Swabian family from what later became Württemberg. A reconstruction of the 14th-century family tree is presented in Friedrich von Stälin, Wirtembergische Geschichte (Stuttgart: 1841-1873), III: 681 (viewable at https://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb10021660_00705.html), which indicates that at this time there was another Wilhelm Graf von Kirchberg, Herr von Wullenstetten, who (in Stälin's reconstruction) was a third cousin to the Wilhelm I. discussed above. This Wilhelm von Kirchberg zu Wullenstetten still had a guardian in 1332 (Regesta sive rerum Boicarum VII: 59, viewable at digital.bib-bvb.de/view/bvbmets/viewer.0.6.4.jsp?folder_id=0&dvs=1615302143906~910&pid=3021048&locale=de&usePid1=true&usePid2=true), entered into a marriage contract in 1339 (Reg. Boic. VII: 242-243, viewable at digital.bib-bvb.de/view/bvbmets/viewer.0.6.4.jsp?folder_id=0&dvs=1615302143906~910&pid=3021048&locale=de&usePid1=true&usePid2=true), and was apparently dead by 1370 when his three sons were enfeoffed (Reg. Boic. IX: 244, viewable at digital.bib-bvb.de/view/bvbmets/viewer.0.6.4.jsp?folder_id=0&dvs=1615302621438~167&pid=3154030&locale=de&usePid1=true&usePid2=true).

As far as I can tell, there is no positive evidence that this Wilhelm von Kirchberg zu Wullenstetten had a daughter named Bertha, and for him to have been the grandfather of the girls Agnes and Anna in 1360 would require that a daughter of his born soon after his marriage in 1339 would have had to have been married as a teenager. Nonetheless, I think the fact that there was more than one Wilhelm Graf von Kirchberg at this time means that there are viable alternatives to the apparently untenable solution proposed by ESNF.
John Higgins
2021-03-11 03:13:34 UTC
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Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
In a charter from 1360 (published in Adam Friedrich Glafey, Anecdotorum S.R.J. Historiam Ac Jus Publicum Illustrantium Collectio (Dresden: 1734), pp. 364-366, nr. CCL, viewable at https://books.google.com/books?id=BPxgAAAAcAAJ), the estate of Graue Hugen von Montfort was divided between his two daughters Nese (i.e., Agnes) and Anna (from the further history of these two daughters it is apparent that this Hugo is the same as Hugo Graf von Montfort, Herr zu Tosters, who had still been alive in 1351). The mother of the girls was named as "Berchte" (i.e., Bertha); she in turn was named as daughter of Graue Wilhelm von Kirchperg, who was appointed as guardian for the daughters in case there should be a court dispute about the division. This implies that this Wilhelm Graf von Kirchberg was still alive in 1360.
In Genealogics, following ESNF 12:52, this Bertha von Kirchberg has been assigned not as the daughter, but as the sister of Wilhelm I. Graf von Kirchberg, who died 1365/66 leaving only one daughter Agnes (https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00112580&tree=LEO). This Wilhelm I. Graf von Kirchberg did indeed have a sister Bertha - we know this from the division of this Wilhelm's properties, as two-thirds went to his son-in-law Ulrich von Matsch, while one-third had gone (as a dowry) to his sister Bertha. But that Bertha had been married to a Heinrich Graf von Werdenberg, who in 1369 sold his third of the properties to Ulrich von Matsch, incidentally noting that his wife Bertha von Kirchberg had died around 1352 (see Justinian Ladurner, "Die Vögte von Matsch, später auch Grafen von Kirchberg," Zeitschrift des Ferdinandeums für Tirol und Vorarlberg, 3rd ser., vol. 16 (1871), pp. 5-292, on pp. 180-181, viewable at http://zeitschrift.tiroler-landesmuseen.at/index.php?mybuch=Ferdinandeum_1871_Folge_3_Bd16&mypage=180).
The Grafen von Kirchberg were a Swabian family from what later became Württemberg. A reconstruction of the 14th-century family tree is presented in Friedrich von Stälin, Wirtembergische Geschichte (Stuttgart: 1841-1873), III: 681 (viewable at https://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb10021660_00705.html), which indicates that at this time there was another Wilhelm Graf von Kirchberg, Herr von Wullenstetten, who (in Stälin's reconstruction) was a third cousin to the Wilhelm I. discussed above. This Wilhelm von Kirchberg zu Wullenstetten still had a guardian in 1332 (Regesta sive rerum Boicarum VII: 59, viewable at digital.bib-bvb.de/view/bvbmets/viewer.0.6.4.jsp?folder_id=0&dvs=1615302143906~910&pid=3021048&locale=de&usePid1=true&usePid2=true), entered into a marriage contract in 1339 (Reg. Boic. VII: 242-243, viewable at digital.bib-bvb.de/view/bvbmets/viewer.0.6.4.jsp?folder_id=0&dvs=1615302143906~910&pid=3021048&locale=de&usePid1=true&usePid2=true), and was apparently dead by 1370 when his three sons were enfeoffed (Reg. Boic. IX: 244, viewable at digital.bib-bvb.de/view/bvbmets/viewer.0.6.4.jsp?folder_id=0&dvs=1615302621438~167&pid=3154030&locale=de&usePid1=true&usePid2=true).
As far as I can tell, there is no positive evidence that this Wilhelm von Kirchberg zu Wullenstetten had a daughter named Bertha, and for him to have been the grandfather of the girls Agnes and Anna in 1360 would require that a daughter of his born soon after his marriage in 1339 would have had to have been married as a teenager. Nonetheless, I think the fact that there was more than one Wilhelm Graf von Kirchberg at this time means that there are viable alternatives to the apparently untenable solution proposed by ESNF.
I think the issue here is a missing linkage in Genealogics – as well as a probable error in the 1360 charter mention in your first paragraph.

At least per ESNF, Bertha the wife of Hugo VI von Montfort was the daughter of Bruno II von Kirchberg – and thus the sister (not daughter) of Wilhelm I von Kirchberg. This is shown in both ESNF 12:52 (Montfort) and ESNF 12:75 (Kirchberg). This is in disagreement with the 1360 charter, but it would solve the chronological problem of Wilhelm I being the supposed grandfather of the two children of Hugo VI von Montfort – he was their uncle instead. As you noted, this is how Bertha is shown in Genealogics.

Of course this means that Wilhelm I von Kirchberg has TWO sisters named Bertha – unusual but not impossible. This is the relationship as it is shown in ESNF 12:75 (Kirchberg). Bertha the wife of Heinrich II von Werdenberg is shown in Genealogics without parents (and both sources for her are wrong as well). https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00314863&tree=LEO The pedigree in the Friedrich von Stälin work that you cited does show this Bertha as the sister of Wilhelm (without noting the other Bertha). OTOH ESNF 12:51 (Werdenberg) says that Bertha the wife of Heinrich II von Werdenberg was the daughter of Konrad von Kirchberg – presumably the Konrad who was the brother of Bruno II, father of Willhelm and the two Berthas. I can’t presently resolve this difference.

BTW I noted an error in the Friedrich von Stälin work - at least as compared to ESNF 12:75 (Kirchberg). Agnes the daughter of Wilhelm I von Kirchberg is shown as having married (1) Ulrich, Vogt von Matsch, and (2) Wölflin, Graf von Nellenburg. ESNF 12:75 separates her into two Agnes, with the Nellenburg wife being the daughter of Wilhelm II von Kirchberg zu Wullenstetten (mentioned in your post), although her husband there is called Wilhelm instead of Wölflin .

In anticipation of your likely interest (!!), I’ll send you a copy of the Kirchberg table from ESNF, along with its sources. Let me know if you’d like to see other tables.
Carl-Henry Geschwind
2021-03-11 05:43:20 UTC
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Post by John Higgins
I think the issue here is a missing linkage in Genealogics – as well as a probable error in the 1360 charter mention in your first paragraph.
At least per ESNF, Bertha the wife of Hugo VI von Montfort was the daughter of Bruno II von Kirchberg – and thus the sister (not daughter) of Wilhelm I von Kirchberg. This is shown in both ESNF 12:52 (Montfort) and ESNF 12:75 (Kirchberg). This is in disagreement with the 1360 charter, but it would solve the chronological problem of Wilhelm I being the supposed grandfather of the two children of Hugo VI von Montfort – he was their uncle instead. As you noted, this is how Bertha is shown in Genealogics.
Of course this means that Wilhelm I von Kirchberg has TWO sisters named Bertha – unusual but not impossible. This is the relationship as it is shown in ESNF 12:75 (Kirchberg). Bertha the wife of Heinrich II von Werdenberg is shown in Genealogics without parents (and both sources for her are wrong as well). https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00314863&tree=LEO The pedigree in the Friedrich von Stälin work that you cited does show this Bertha as the sister of Wilhelm (without noting the other Bertha). OTOH ESNF 12:51 (Werdenberg) says that Bertha the wife of Heinrich II von Werdenberg was the daughter of Konrad von Kirchberg – presumably the Konrad who was the brother of Bruno II, father of Willhelm and the two Berthas. I can’t presently resolve this difference.
BTW I noted an error in the Friedrich von Stälin work - at least as compared to ESNF 12:75 (Kirchberg). Agnes the daughter of Wilhelm I von Kirchberg is shown as having married (1) Ulrich, Vogt von Matsch, and (2) Wölflin, Graf von Nellenburg. ESNF 12:75 separates her into two Agnes, with the Nellenburg wife being the daughter of Wilhelm II von Kirchberg zu Wullenstetten (mentioned in your post), although her husband there is called Wilhelm instead of Wölflin .
In anticipation of your likely interest (!!), I’ll send you a copy of the Kirchberg table from ESNF, along with its sources. Let me know if you’d like to see other tables.
Hi John:

Thank you for taking a look at this.

For my own personal tree the issue is fairly easy to resolve (because I'm using a very strict standard of proof) - my ancestors are Hugo VI von Montfort and his wife Bertha von Kirchberg, and I have a charter that asserts she was the daughter of a Graf Wilhelm von Kirchberg, but there are no indications in the charter as to which Graf Wilhelm von Kirchberg he was, and there were also no property transfers from the Kirchberg family to the Montfort-Tosters family that might help to identify her family line, so I cut the line right there as being "unable to determine parents".

However, for those who don't want to just throw their hands up in the air:

The documentation for the family of Wilhelm I. von Kirchberg is indeed a bit confusing. My problem here is that I have not yet found a reference to published versions of the relevant charters; all I have are the descriptive summaries of unpublished documents in the 1871 article by Justinian Ladurner that I cited in my first post. The relevant documents are:

1) on 14 March 1366 Ulrich von Matsch, as owner of two-thirds of the lordship of Kirchberg, together with his maternal uncle Heinrich von Werdenberg, co-owner of the county of Kirchberg, assigns income from a toll.

2) on 12 May 1366 Ulrich von Matsch is enfeoffed by emperor Karl IV with the two thirds of castle and county of Kirchberg which had fallen to his wife Agnes von Kirchberg from her father Wilhelm Graf von Kirchberg (there's another abstract of this at http://www.regesta-imperii.de/id/dee8f834-711d-4889-9c6c-b58837930353)

3) on 10 August 1369, Heinrich Graf von Werdenberg sells the third of the castle and lordship of Kirchberg that he had inherited around 1352 from his wife Bertha von Kirchberg, daughter of count Conrad [!] von Kirchberg, to his sister-son Ulrich von Matsch.

One genealogical complication here is that Heinrich II von Werdenberg was related not just through his wife to Ulrich von Matsch - our Ulrich von Matsch (Ulrich IV) was the son of Ulrich III von Matsch and his wife Agnes von Werdenberg, who was the sister of Heinrich II von Werdenberg. Both Heinrich II von Werdenberg and his nephew Ulrich IV von Matsch had then married von Kirchbergs, who between them owned the three thirds of the castle and county of Kirchberg.

I have some trouble seeing how the Bertha of Kirchberg, wife of Heinrich II von Werdenberg, could have been a cousin of Wilhelm I von Kirchberg (that is, daughter of Konrad von Werdenberg, the brother of Wilhelm I's father Bruno von Kirchberg) - how, in that case, would she have ended up with one-third of castle and county, rather than one-half (or none)? A portion of one-third sounds like dowry to me - which makes it seem more reasonable to me that it would have been Bruno who would have split castle and county, with one-third going as dowry to a daughter Bertha and the remaining two-thirds to son Wilhelm. Incidentally, I did find an abstract of a charter from 15 May 1346 (Reg. Boic. VIII: 73, at https://books.google.com/books?id=1kVIAAAAYAAJ) which states that Liutgard (Bruno's widow) and her daughter Bertha (at this point still unmarried) came to an agreement with Wilhelm, Liutgard's son, that Wilhelm would be given the whole of Kirchberg in exchange for certain pawns given to Liutgard that would then go to Bertha (perhaps these were later exchanged for one-third of Kirchberg when Bertha finally married?). There is also a reference in Vanotti's Geschichte der Grafen von Montfort und von Werdenberg, p. 373 (at https://books.google.com/books?id=mGcPAAAAQAAJ) that in a charter from 1360 Heinrich von Werdenberg called Wilhelm von Kirchberg his brother-in-law (Schwager). All in all this would suggest that the charter of 10 August 1369 was in error in calling Bertha the daughter of Konrad von Kirchberg rather than of Bruno von Kirchberg. Note that Sarah Hadry, in her 2011 article on the Grafen von Kirchberg in the "Historisches Lexikon Bayerns" (which is the main source for the German Wikipedia article on them) also calls the Bertha who married Heinrich II von Werdenberg as Wilhelm I's sister (see https://www.historisches-lexikon-bayerns.de/Lexikon/Kirchberg,_Grafen_von#Zwischenspiel:_Die_V.C3.B6gte_von_Matsch_als_Inhaber_der_Grafschaft_Kirchberg)

In any case, the fact that two-thirds of Kirchberg went to Wilhelm's daughter Agnes, and one-third to Bertha the wife of Heinrich II von Werdenberg does suggest that Bertha the wife of Hugo VI von Montfort-Tosters must have been more distantly related. She cannot have been a daughter of this Wilhelm, for in that case she would have split Wilhelm's portion with Agnes (the fact that Agnes inherited means that Wilhelm did not have a surviving son). And if she was sister to Wilhelm, while the Bertha who married Heinrich II von Werdenberg was only cousin to Wilhelm, then why did the latter get the remaining one-third of Kirchberg while the former went empty-handed?

You are right that Stälin appears to be in error in assigning two husbands to Agnes the daughter and heir of Wilhelm I; however, I'm not sure ESNF has the right solution either. Stälin's evidence is that Agnes, the wife of Wölflin von Nellenburg, was called "Agnes von Kilberg [i.e., Kirchberg]" in a charter of 1398, suggesting a maiden name. But Ladurner (on p. 184 of his article) indicates that she was a daughter of Ulrich III von Matsch and was married to Wolfram [=Wölflin] von Nellenburg by 1350 - apparently after Ulrich IV von Matsch acquired the county of Kirchberg his sister also started using von Kirchberg as her maiden name.

Overall, I have to admit that, at least on these obscure German lordlets, I'm starting to be less than convinced that ESNF has the right solution when the source documentation is confusing or contradictory (I may become as grumpy about ESNF as Peter is about Cawley/Medlands). One example that really gave me pause - ESNF 12:130 (of which you kindly gave me a copy) shows Agnes von Habsburg-Laufenburg as the wife of Donat von Toggenburg. But as Albert Bodmer pointed out in an article in 1955 (an article that ESNF actually cites as a source for this table), there is absolutely no support whatsoever for a family name for this Donat's wife Agnes (and no mention of her in Habsburg documents or family histories); her parentage seems to have originated as an unsupported throw-away line in a 19th-century county history and then been simply uncritically copied by others (see Albert Bodmer, "Verwandschaft und Erbfolge des letzten Grafen von Toggenburg," Schweizer Archiv für Heraldik, 69 (1955): 17-40, on p. 18, viewable at https://www.e-periodica.ch/digbib/view?pid=ahe-003%3A1955%3A0#24).
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