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Roger fitz Richard of Warkworth
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a***@gmail.com
2018-11-03 08:40:28 UTC
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Hello,
Is the Roger fitz Richard, Lord of Warkworth, d. 1177, who married Alice de Vere and had a son; Robert, the same person as the Roger fitz Richard who had a daughter, Alice, who married John fitz Richard of Chester, Baron of Pontefract?
If so, is Alice de Vere the mother of both children?
I would also appreciate finding more about his father Richard and his mother Jane Bigod. Are her parents Roger Bigod and Alice de Toeni?
Thank you!
Yours truly,
David, on the central coast, California, USA
Wow, it's amazing how much misinformation there is, presented in such a confident manner. But not surprising, as Keats-Rohan's Domesday People and the Complete Peerage do the same (and both often need correcting). My credentials are as a professional historian who has studied the de Veres for over 40 years.

Alice of Essex married as her second husband Roger fitz Richard, knight. He was said to have been a nephew of Hugh Bigod, first earl of Norfolk. He held Warkworth in-chief as a gift of King Henry II, as well as land of the earls of Norfolk and Essex. The couple had 3 children (as reported in the Rotuli de Dominabus): Robert fitz Roger, his father's heir; Roger fitz Roger; and Alice, who married John fitz Eustace, constable of Chester, before 1185. Roger fitz Richard died in late 1177.

Alice, wife of John fitz Eustace, is sometimes confused with her mother and with her first cousin, Alice daughter of Aubrey III de Vere, first earl of Oxford. Alice made a grant to Rufford Abbey, stating that she was the widow of John and granddaughter of Aubrey de Vere (Aubrey II, master chamberlain of England, died 1141). Her husband had been a patron of Rufford Abbey. He died on crusade with King Richard I in late 1190. Their son Roger inherited the office of constable of the earldom of Chester. Roger inherited the sizeable estate of his paternal grandmother Aubreye and he then took the surname de Lacy/Lascy in recognition of that lineage. He died in 1211. He may have had as brothers Richard, Geoffrey and Eustace.

I can provide citations for this on request.
r***@fernside.co.nz
2018-11-04 05:04:18 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Wow, it's amazing how much misinformation there is, presented in such a confident manner. But not surprising, as Keats-Rohan's Domesday People and the Complete Peerage do the same (and both often need correcting). My credentials are as a professional historian who has studied the de Veres for over 40 years.
Alice of Essex married as her second husband Roger fitz Richard, knight. He was said to have been a nephew of Hugh Bigod, first earl of Norfolk. He held Warkworth in-chief as a gift of King Henry II, as well as land of the earls of Norfolk and Essex. The couple had 3 children (as reported in the Rotuli de Dominabus): Robert fitz Roger, his father's heir; Roger fitz Roger; and Alice, who married John fitz Eustace, constable of Chester, before 1185. Roger fitz Richard died in late 1177.
The foundation charter of Aynho hospital in Northamptonshire shows that the two sons of Roger fitz Richard and Alice were named Robert and William, who gave their consent to the charter. No mention of a Roger.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Alice, wife of John fitz Eustace, is sometimes confused with her mother and with her first cousin, Alice daughter of Aubrey III de Vere, first earl of Oxford. Alice made a grant to Rufford Abbey, stating that she was the widow of John and granddaughter of Aubrey de Vere (Aubrey II, master chamberlain of England, died 1141). Her husband had been a patron of Rufford Abbey. He died on crusade with King Richard I in late 1190. Their son Roger inherited the office of constable of the earldom of Chester. Roger inherited the sizeable estate of his paternal grandmother Aubreye and he then took the surname de Lacy/Lascy in recognition of that lineage. He died in 1211. He may have had as brothers Richard, Geoffrey and Eustace.
I can provide citations for this on request.
Rosie Bevan

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