Discussion:
More C.P. Additions: John de Segrave, son and heir apparent of John de Segrave, 4th Lord Segrave, and his siblings
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Douglas Richardson
2009-01-12 21:49:46 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 610–611 (sub Segrave) has a good account
of the life of Sir John de Segrave, Knt., 4th Lord Segrave, and his
wife, Margaret (usually styled Margaret Marshal), daughter of Thomas
of Brotherton, Knt., Earl of Norfolk, Marshal of England. In the
record of their issue, however, only one child is mentioned, namely
one daughter and heiress, Elizabeth de Segrave, wife of John de
Mowbray, Knt., 4th Lord Mowbray. Actually John de Segrave and his
wife, Margaret of Norfolk, had four children in all, namely two sons
named John, and two daughters, Elizabeth and Margaret. This is
indicated by a contemporary record of this couple's family dated c.
1358. This information was provided by John de Segrave's own widow,
Margaret, and her 2nd husband, Walter de Mauney, K.G., Lord Mauney,
when they were admitted as members of the Corpus Christi at
Cambridge. A transcript of this record was published many years ago
in Mary Bateson, ed., Cambridge Gild Records (Cambridge Antiq. Soc.
39) (1903): 56-57, which source may viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=wxsjAAAAMAAJ&dq=Cambridge+Gild+Records&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=ENPc1RSTGA&sig=fsHImW-DSpw366yOjsoIBGw7LcA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA56,M1

Besides the three additional Segrave children, it appears that
Margaret of Norfolk and her 2nd husband, Sir Walter de Mauney,
likewise had a daughter, Isabel de Mauney, whose existence has also
been hitherto overlooked. In total, the Corpus Christ Gild record
adds four new great-grandchildren to the posterity of King Edward I of
England, as Margaret of Norfolk, the mother of these children, was the
king's granddaughter.

It is somewhat odd that Complete Peerage should have missed the second
son of John de Segrave and Margaret of Norfolk named John, as mention
of his existence has appeared elsewhere in print. It is known that
the younger John de Segrave was contracted on about 4 May 1347 to
marry Blanche of Lancaster, 3rd but 2nd surviving daughter and co-
heiress of Henry of Lancaster, K.G., Duke of Lancaster, Earl of Derby,
Lincoln, and Leicester, Steward of England (descendant of King Henry
III), by Isabel, daughter of Henry de Beaumont, Knt., 1st Lord
Beaumont, Earl of Buchan and Moray [in Scotland], hereditary Constable
of Scotland [Reference: Berkeley Castle Muniments, BCM/D/5/101/8].
Blanche of Lancaster was born about 1340–1343 (aged 18, 19, or 20 in
1361, aged 22 in 1362). This marriage agreement was subsequently
voided, and the marriage did not take place. Blanche of Lancaster
instead married John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster, about whom much has
been written in history books.

John de Segrave was next dispensed to marry on 25 March 1349 Blanche
Mowbray, daughter of John de Mowbray, Knt., 3rd Lord Mowbray, by his
1st wife, Joan, daughter of Henry of Lancaster, Knt., Earl of
Lancaster [Reference: Papal Registers: Letters, 3 (1897): 305,
available at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=AiDD_XU7P4kC&pg=PA305&dq=Papal+Registers+Blanche+Segrave].
This marriage actually took place, and is duly noted in a pedigree of
the Segrave family kept at Chaucombe Abbey:

“… Predictus Johannes [de Segrave] nupsit Blanche filie Johannis
domini de Mowbraye, & obiit sine herede de se.” [Reference: Nichols,
History & Antiqs. of Leicestershire, 3(1) (1800): 240].

As John de Segrave was earlier contracted to marry another party, so
was Blanche Mowbray. I find that before she married John de Segrave,
Blanche Mowbray was contracted in May 1343 to marry Edward de Montagu,
son and heir apparent of Edward de Montagu, Knt., Lord Montagu, by his
1st wife, Alice, daughter and co-heiress of Thomas of Brotherton,
Knt., Earl of Norfolk, Marshal of England (younger son of King Edward
I). This marriage agreement was subsequently voided, and the marriage
of Blanche and Edward did not take place.

The death date of young John de Segrave is unknown, but he evidently
predeceased his father without issue sometime before 1 April 1353.
John de Segrave's widow, Blanche Mowbray, subsequently had four more
marriages. I find she married (2nd) before Nov. 1363 Robert Bertram,
Knt., Baron of Bothal, Northumberland; (3rd) before 5 June 1372 Thomas
de Poynings (or Ponynges), 2nd Lord Poynings; (4th) before 21 March
1377/8 John de Worth (or Worthe), Knt., and (5th) before 5 Nov. 1394
John de Wiltshire, Knt. Blanche was one of the noble ladies appointed
to meet King Richard II's wife, Isabel of France, in 1396, and to
attend her in 1401 to Calais on her return to France. Blanche died
without issue 21 July 1409.

I've presented below a copy of my current file account of young John
de Segrave, and his much married wife, Blanche Mowbray. Needless to
say, the records of this couple and Blanche's various other spouses
are scattered through many sources. The cross references below such
as "[see LANCASTER 7 for her ancestry]" are to my book, Plantagenet
Ancestry (2004). Those interested in obtaining a copy of that book or
my other book, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), may do so by contacting me
privately by e-mail.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + +
John de Segrave, son and heir apparent of Sir John de Segrave, Knt.,
4th Lord Segrave, and his wife, Blanche Mowbray

I. JOHN DE SEGRAVE (2nd son of that name), son and heir apparent. On
or about 4 May 1347 his father contracted him to marry BLANCHE OF
LANCASTER, younger daughter and co-heiress of Henry of Lancaster,
K.G., Duke of Lancaster, Earl of Derby, Lincoln, and Leicester,
Steward of England (descendant of King Henry III), by Isabel, daughter
of Henry de Beaumont, Knt., 1st Lord Beaumont, Earl of Buchan and
Moray [in Scotland], hereditary Constable of Scotland (descendant of
King Henry II) [see LANCASTER 7 for her ancestry]. She was born about
1340–1343 (aged 18, 19, or 20 in 1361, aged 22 in 1362). This
marriage agreement was voided, and the marriage did not take place.
John subsequently married by dispensation dated 25 March 1349 (they
being related in the 4th degree of kindred) BLANCHE MOWBRAY, daughter
of John de Mowbray, Knt., 3rd Lord Mowbray, by his 1st wife, Joan,
daughter of Henry of Lancaster, Knt., Earl of Lancaster [see MOWBRAY 8
for her ancestry]. JOHN DE SEGRAVE died without issue sometime before
1 April 1353. His widow, Blanche, married (2nd) (as his 2nd wife)
ROBERT BERTRAM, Knt., Baron of Bothal, Northumberland, Sheriff of
Northumberland. In 1358 Roger Mauduit, Knt., of Northumberland, owed
him a debt of £1000. In 1359 he owed a debt of £40 to Hugh de Mitton,
Citizen of York. The same year he and Thomas de Bretby owed a debt of
£200 to Richard de Stanhope, burgess of Newcastle-on-Tyne,
Northumberland. In 1359–1360 John de Cobham son of the Countess
Marshal quitclaimed the manor of Rolleston, Leicestershire to him. In
1362 he, Walter de Campden, clerk, and John Hatfield, citizen and
merchant of London, owed a debt of £500 to John Philipot, citizen of
London. In Nov. 1363 Robert had license to settle the castle and
manor of Bothal, Northumberland on himself and Blanche his wife, in
tail, with remainder to his right heirs. SIR ROBERT BERTRAM died in
1363, and was buried in the church of the Grey Friars, London. She
married (3rd) before 5 June 1372 THOMAS DE POYNINGS (or PONYNGES), 2nd
Lord Poynings, son and heir of Michael de Poynings, Knt., 1st Lord
Poynings, by his wife, Joan. He was born at Slaugham, Sussex, and
baptized there 19 April 1349. He was a legatee in the 1369 will of
his mother. He had an order for livery of his lands in May 1370. He
was going with John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster, in March 1372/3 on
the king’s proposed expedition to Gascony. He and his wife, Blanche,
attended the memorial service for Blanche, Duchess of Lancaster, John
of Gaunt’s 1st wife, in 1374, at the Duke’s expense. He was on the
commission for the peace for Sussex in 1375. THOMAS DE POYNINGS, 2nd
Lord Poynings, died shortly before 25 June 1375, and was buried in the
parish church of Poynings, Sussex. He left a will dated 28 Oct.
1374. His widow, Blanche, married (4th) before 21 March 1377/8 JOHN
DE WORTH (or WORTHE), Knt., Steward of the lands of Joan, Princess of
Wales and an executor of her will, son and heir of John de Worth,
Knt., by his 1st wife, Beatrice, daughter of Nicholas de Seymour (or
Saint Maur), Knt., 1st Lord Seymour. He was born about 1339 (aged 19
in 1358, of age in 1362). They had no issue. He was heir in 1358 to
his uncle, Thomas de Seymour, Knt. [see LISLE 5.i ]. In 1362 John de
Worth, as cousin and heir of Thomas de Seymour, conveyed two parts of
the manor of Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex to Roger Dalyngruge and
Alice his wife. In 1374 he released all his lands in Fletching,
Maresfield, and Horsted Keynes, Sussex to Roger Dalyngruge. In 1379
he successfully sued John Peyto, Knt. for the manor of Milcote (in
Weston-upon-Avon), Warwickshire, which he claimed as the heir of Joan
Trillowe. In 1382 he requested an assize of mort d’ancestor regarding
a messuage in St. Peter Bradestrete, London against Richard de
Seymour, Knt., John claiming the property as nephew and heir of Thomas
de Seymour, Knt. Both he and his wife, Blanche, Lady Poynings, were
excluded from court in Jan. 1388 by order of the Lords Appellant. On
the king’s restoration to independence, she returned to Court. SIR
JOHN DE WORTH died shortly before 1 June 1391. She married (5th)
before 5 Nov. 1394 JOHN WILTSHIRE, Knt., in right of his 2nd wife, of
Heylesdon and Drayton, Norfolk, Gentleman of the Earl of Arundel’s
household. They had no issue. In 1381 he was charged with having
rescued a prisoner from the custody of the Keeper of the Fleet. He
was granted letters of protection in 1386, he then about to serve John
of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster in Spain. In 1394 he and his wife,
Blanche, were granted the commote of Cymytmaen, Carnarvonshire, Wales
for life. He and his wife, Blanche, were granted certain messuages in
Calais in October 1395. Blanche was one of the noble ladies appointed
to meet Queen Isabel in 1396, and to attend her in 1401 to Calais on
her return to France. He was present in 1397 with Thomas, Archbishop
of Canterbury, and others when King Richard II promised Richard, Earl
of Arundel, that no harm should come to him, notwithstanding the earl
was immediately apprehended. Sir John obtained letters of protection
on going abroad in 1398. In 1402 he and Nicholas Hauberk, Knt. owed
£266 to William Brestour, Citizen and saddler of London. In October
1403 he, John Sutheron, and John Waleys, Esq. obtained letters of
general attorney. In April 1405 he served as proxy for Thomas, Earl
of Arundel and Surrey, at the Earl’s marriage is Lisbon to Beatrice of
Portugal. In 1406 he was made a trustee of Earl Thomas’ widespread
estates. His wife, Blanche, died 21 July 1409. She left a will dated
16 July 1409, requesting burial at St. Pancras Priory, Lewes, Sussex.
He married (2nd) Alice Heylesdon, widow of John Gurney, Esq. (died
1408), of Harpley, Drayton, and Heylesdon, Norfolk, and daughter and
heiress of John de Heylesdon, of Heylesdon and Drayton, Norfolk,
Citizen of London, by his wife, Joan. They had no issue. In 1412 he
was appointed a commissioner to settle a dispute respecting the ransom
of the Count of Denin. In 1415 he was nominated an executor of the
will of Thomas, Earl of Arundel. In 1422 he and other Arundel
feoffees demised the manor of Bignor, Sussex to Beatrice, Countess of
Arundel, for life. In 1423–1424 he and other Arundel feoffees demised
the manors of South Stoke, Warningcamp, etc. to John Clamorde, master,
and the chaplains of the college in the parish church of Arundel
founded by Richard, late Earl of Arundel. SIR JOHN WILTSHIRE died
before 13 Feb. 1429, and was buried in Lewes Priory, Sussex. His
widow, Alice, married (3rd) (as his 2nd wife) Richard Selling (or
Sellyng), Esq., of Heylesdon, Norfolk.

References:

Nichols, Hist. & Antiqs. of Leicestershire 3(1) (1800): 240 (Segrave
pedigree from Chronicis apud Chaucombe: “… Predictus Johannes [de
Segrave] nupsit Blanche filie Johannis domini de Mowbraye, & obiit
sine herede de se.”). Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 82 (will
of Joan, Lady Poynings), 92–93 (will of Thomas de Poynings, 2nd Lord
Poynings), 122–123 (will of Richard de Poynings, 3rd Lord Poynings).
Coll. Top. et Gen. 1 (1834): 81–82. Williams, Chronicque de la
traïson et mort de Richart Deux roy Dengleterre (1846): 132. Gurney,
Rec. of the House of Gournay (1848): 374–381. Sussex Arch. Colls. 12
(1860): 221–231. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1377–1381 (1895): 308. Papal
Regs.: Petitions 1 (1896): 151. Papal Regs.: Letters 3 (1897): 305.
Cal. Patent Rolls, 1385–1389 (1900): 428 ([Blanche], lady de Ponynges,
styled “king’s kinswoman” by King Richard II of England). Rye, Cal.
of Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 254. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1422–
1429 (1901): 16, 115, 282, 537. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1388–1392 (1902):
195, 197, 386 (instances of [Blanche], lady de Ponynges, styled
“king’s kinswoman” by King Richard II of England). Cal. Patent Rolls,
1399–1401 (1903): 86. Bateson, Cambridge Gild Records (Cambridge
Antiq. Soc. 39) (1903): 56-57. Gairdner, The Paston Letters, A.D.
1422–1509 2 (1904): 188–189. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1391–1396 (1905): 217
([Blanche], lady de Ponynges, styled “king’s kinswoman” by King
Richard II of England). D.N.B. 17 (1909): 1167 (biog. of Richard
Sellyng). John of Gaunt’s Register (Camden Soc.) (1911): no. 982
([Blanche], lady of Ponynges, styled “tres cher cousine” by John of
Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster in 1372). Cal. Patent Rolls, 1361–1364
(1912): 415, 488, 493. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1370–1374 (1914): 169
(Blanche Bertram, baroness of Bothel, styled “sister” of John de
Mowbray, lord of the isle of Axiholm). Kingsford The Grey Friars of
London (1915): 70–133 (“Et ad dexteram eius inmediate sub longo lapide
jacet dominus Robertus Bertram, baro de Bothale: qui obiit 21 …”), 134–
139. Cal. Close Rolls, 1399–1402 (1927): 94–96. Misc. Gen. et
Heraldica 5th Ser. 9 (1935–37): 162–168. Bull. John Rylands Library
21 (1937): 190, footnote 2. Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 661–662 (sub
Poynings); 11 (1945): 359, footnote i (sub Saint Maur). VCH Warwick 5
(1949): 198–202. Russell English Intervention in Spain & Portugal
(1955): 546. Segrave, Segrave Fam. 1066 to 1935 (1963): 51–54. Chew,
London Possessory Assizes: a Calendar (1965): 46–72 (no. 154). Roche,
Philippa: Dona Filipa of Portugal (1971): 78. Ancient Deeds—Series B
3 (List & Index Soc. 113) (1975): B.10,062–10,065. Davis, Paston
Letters & Papers of the Fifteenth Century 3 (1975): 100. Hector,
Westminster Chronicle 1381–1394 (1982): 230–231. Roskell, House of
Commons 1386–1421 4 (1992): 874–875 (biog. of John Wiltshire).
Archer, Rulers & Ruled in Late Medieval England (1995): 144. Leese,
Blood Royal (1996): 80–92. Saul, Richard II (1997): 454 (“A
particular favourite [of King Richard II] appears to have been
Blanche, Lady Poynings. In 1397 Richard presented her with a precious
ring, and in the following year he granted her £40 ‘of his gift.’ It
is hard to know what degree of affection lay behind Richard’s favour
to Lady Poynings and her like.”). National Archives, C 241/138/78; C
241/139/201; C 241/144/138; C 241/151/30; C 241/192/85; E 329/23; SC
8/139/6933 (abstract of documents available online at
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp). Berkeley
Castle Muniments, Reference: BCM/D/1/1/11 (marriage agreement of
Edward de Montagu and Blanche Mowbray dated 1343) (abstract of
document available online at http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
Berkeley Castle Muniments, BCM/D/5/101/8 (document relating to
contracted marriage of John de Segrave and Blanche of Lancaster dated
4 May 1347) (abstract of document available online at
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
wjhonson
2009-01-14 03:13:27 UTC
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Post by Douglas Richardson
His widow, Blanche, married (4th) before 21 March 1377/8 JOHN
DE WORTH (or WORTHE), Knt., Steward of the lands of Joan, Princess of
Wales and an executor of her will, son and heir of John de Worth,
Knt., by his 1st wife, Beatrice, daughter of Nicholas de Seymour (or
Saint Maur), Knt., 1st Lord Seymour.  He was born about 1339 (aged 19
in 1358, of age in 1362).  They had no issue.  He was heir in 1358 to
his uncle, Thomas de Seymour, Knt. [see LISLE 5.i ].  In 1362 John de
Worth, as cousin and heir of Thomas de Seymour, conveyed two parts of
the manor of Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex to Roger Dalyngruge and
Alice his wife.  In 1374 he released all his lands in Fletching,
Maresfield, and Horsted Keynes, Sussex to Roger Dalyngruge.  In 1379
he successfully sued John Peyto, Knt. for the manor of Milcote (in
Weston-upon-Avon), Warwickshire, which he claimed as the heir of Joan
Trillowe.  In 1382 he requested an assize of mort d’ancestor regarding
a messuage in St. Peter Bradestrete, London against Richard de
Seymour, Knt., John claiming the property as nephew and heir of Thomas
de Seymour, Knt.  Both he and his wife, Blanche, Lady Poynings, were
excluded from court in Jan. 1388 by order of the Lords Appellant.  On
the king’s restoration to independence, she returned to Court.  SIR
JOHN DE WORTH died shortly before 1 June 1391.  
----------------

Perhaps but a few years ago mjcar and Mardicar had an exchange
regarding this Sir John Wrothe and although detailing two wives, they
did not include a widow Blanche. Also the documents they cited seem
to come perilously close, if not overlapping the time that John should
have had a wife Blanche.

See in particular Gen-Med, May 2006
"Re: Wroth of London: originally de Wrotham?"
and
"Margaret Buckland married John Wroth"

Will Johnson
Douglas Richardson
2009-01-14 04:00:23 UTC
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Permalink
On Jan 13, 8:13 pm, wjhonson <***@aol.com> wrote:
< Perhaps but a few years ago mjcar and Mardicar had an exchange
< regarding this Sir John Wrothe and although detailing two wives,
they
< did not include a widow Blanche.  Also the documents they cited seem
< to come perilously close, if not overlapping the time that John
should
< have had a wife Blanche.
<
< See in particular Gen-Med, May 2006
< "Re: Wroth of London: originally de Wrotham?"
< and
< "Margaret Buckland married John Wroth"
<
< Will Johnson

Blanche Mowbray's 4th husband was Sir John Worth (or Worthe), not
Wrothe. I suspect you are confusing two different surnames.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
wjhonson
2009-01-14 06:09:07 UTC
Reply
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Post by Douglas Richardson
Blanche Mowbray's 4th husband was Sir John Worth (or Worthe), not
Wrothe.  I suspect you are confusing two different surnames.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-----------

Thank you but specific mention was made of this Sir John's parents,
the same parents as you stated, which is how I was able to match them
together.

The connection of this Sir John to his parents, was not made by me,
but rather by those posters, I mentioned in their thread, which I'm
repeating in my database.

They presented some documentation, which is worth reviewing.

Will Johnson
wjhonson
2009-01-14 06:34:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Douglas Richardson
Blanche Mowbray's 4th husband was Sir John Worth (or Worthe), not
Wrothe.  I suspect you are confusing two different surnames.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-----------

Thank you but specific mention was made of this Sir John's parents,
the same parents as you stated, which is how I was able to match them
together.

The connection of this Sir John to his parents, was not made by me,
but rather by those posters, I mentioned in their thread, which I'm
repeating in my database.

They presented some documentation, which is worth reviewing.

Will Johnson
Douglas Richardson
2009-01-14 16:16:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Jan 13, 11:34 pm, wjhonson <***@aol.com> wrote:

< They presented some documentation, which is worth reviewing.
Post by wjhonson
Will Johnson
Documentation? Where? I read what they wrote. There was no
documentation. Unless your definition of documentation is an
unsourced statement from a secondary work [Weaver]. Is it?

As I stated, Sir John de Worth (or Worthe) is a separate and distinct
person from John Wrothe, of Middlesex and Wiltshire, father and son.
Here is the proof. I've listed below three listings of inquistions
post mortem from the index in the National Archives catalogue. The
first inquisition is for John Worthe, knight and is dated 14 Richard
II [1390-1]. This individual was the husband of Blanche Mowbray. He
died shorty before 1 June 1391. In 1379 he successfully sued John
Peyto, Knt. for the manor of Milcote (in Weston-upon-Avon),
Warwickshire, which he claimed as the heir of Joan Trillowe. This
explains why he is shown holding lands in Warwickshire at the time of
his death. Sir John de Worth (or Worthe) was born about 1339 (aged 19
in 1358, of age in 1362), being the son and heir of John de Worth,
Knt., by his 1st wife, Beatrice, daughter of Nicholas de Seymour (or
Saint Maur), Knt., 1st Lord Seymour. He was heir in 1358 to his
uncle, Thomas de Seymour, Knt.

The second and third inquisitions listed below are for John Wroth, who
died in 20 Richard II [1396], and his son and heir, Sir John Wroth,
who died in 8 Henry IV [1407]. These are different dates, different
men, and different land holdings from Sir John de Worth above who
married Blanche Mowbray. The first of these men was John Wroth, of
Enfield, Middlesex, and Downton, Wiltshire, who died in 1396. The
second of these men is his son and heir, Sir John Wroth, of Middlesex,
who died in 1407, leaving a PCC will proved 1408.

C 136/67/18 John Worthe, knight: Warwickshire 14 Rich II
C 136/95/19 John Wroth: Hampshire, Wiltshire, Middlesex 20 Rich
II
C 137/58/23 John Wroth, knight: Middlesex, Wiltshire, Hampshire 8
Hen IV

As far as I can tell, the Worth(e) family has no connection whatsoever
to the Wroth family.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
wjhonson
2009-01-15 01:34:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Douglas Richardson
The second and third inquisitions listed below are for John Wroth, who
died in 20 Richard II [1396], and his son and heir, Sir John Wroth,
who died in 8 Henry IV [1407].  These are different dates, different
men, and different land holdings from Sir John de Worth above who
married Blanche Mowbray.  The first of these men was John Wroth, of
Enfield, Middlesex, and Downton, Wiltshire, who died in 1396.  The
second of these men is his son and heir, Sir John Wroth, of Middlesex,
who died in 1407, leaving a PCC will proved 1408.
C 136/67/18    John Worthe, knight: Warwickshire        14 Rich II
C 136/95/19     John Wroth: Hampshire, Wiltshire, Middlesex     20 Rich
II
C 137/58/23        John Wroth, knight: Middlesex, Wiltshire, Hampshire  8
Hen IV
As far as I can tell, the Worth(e) family has no connection whatsoever
to the Wroth family.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
--------------------

None of which has any bearing on what I stated.
What is in dispute is not the years they had IPM, but rather, which
man, married which woman, and which parents, belong to which man.

That's what's in dispute.

Will Johnson
Douglas Richardson
2009-01-15 05:52:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Jan 14, 6:34 pm, wjhonson <***@aol.com> wrote:

< None of which has any bearing on what I stated.
< What is in dispute is not the years they had IPM, but rather, which
< man, married which woman, and which parents, belong to which man.
<
< That's what's in dispute.
<
< Will Johnson

You have a different man, with different lands, a different wife, a
different death date, and a different surname.

Other than that, Will, you're right on target.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
wjhonson
2009-01-15 05:57:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Douglas Richardson
< None of which has any bearing on what I stated.
< What is in dispute is not the years they had IPM, but rather, which
< man, married which woman, and which parents, belong to which man.
<
< That's what's in dispute.
<
< Will Johnson
You have a different man, with different lands, a different wife, a
different death date, and a different surname.
Other than that, Will, you're right on target.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
We already knew that you were convinced of your own brilliance Dougie.
But you have presented zero evidence on the specific issues I raised.
An index of IPMs is not evidence on which woman married which man, nor
on whose parents belong to whom.

Will "Nice Try Mouse" Johnson
Douglas Richardson
2009-01-15 06:18:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by wjhonson
We already knew that you were convinced of your own brilliance Dougie.
But you have presented zero evidence on the specific issues I raised.
An index of IPMs is not evidence on which woman married which man, nor
on whose parents belong to whom.
Will "Nice Try Mouse" Johnson
You have a different man, with different lands, a different wife, a
different death date, and a different surname.

Other than that, you're right on target.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Andrew Lancaster
2019-10-04 20:00:18 UTC
Reply
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Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 610–611 (sub Segrave) has a good account
of the life of Sir John de Segrave, Knt., 4th Lord Segrave, and his
wife, Margaret (usually styled Margaret Marshal), daughter of Thomas
of Brotherton, Knt., Earl of Norfolk, Marshal of England. In the
record of their issue, however, only one child is mentioned, namely
one daughter and heiress, Elizabeth de Segrave, wife of John de
Mowbray, Knt., 4th Lord Mowbray. Actually John de Segrave and his
wife, Margaret of Norfolk, had four children in all, namely two sons
named John, and two daughters, Elizabeth and Margaret. This is
indicated by a contemporary record of this couple's family dated c.
1358. This information was provided by John de Segrave's own widow,
Margaret, and her 2nd husband, Walter de Mauney, K.G., Lord Mauney,
when they were admitted as members of the Corpus Christi at
Cambridge. A transcript of this record was published many years ago
in Mary Bateson, ed., Cambridge Gild Records (Cambridge Antiq. Soc.
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=wxsjAAAAMAAJ&dq=Cambridge+Gild+Records&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=ENPc1RSTGA&sig=fsHImW-DSpw366yOjsoIBGw7LcA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA56,M1
Besides the three additional Segrave children, it appears that
Margaret of Norfolk and her 2nd husband, Sir Walter de Mauney,
likewise had a daughter, Isabel de Mauney, whose existence has also
been hitherto overlooked. In total, the Corpus Christ Gild record
adds four new great-grandchildren to the posterity of King Edward I of
England, as Margaret of Norfolk, the mother of these children, was the
king's granddaughter.
It is somewhat odd that Complete Peerage should have missed the second
son of John de Segrave and Margaret of Norfolk named John, as mention
of his existence has appeared elsewhere in print. It is known that
the younger John de Segrave was contracted on about 4 May 1347 to
marry Blanche of Lancaster, 3rd but 2nd surviving daughter and co-
heiress of Henry of Lancaster, K.G., Duke of Lancaster, Earl of Derby,
Lincoln, and Leicester, Steward of England (descendant of King Henry
III), by Isabel, daughter of Henry de Beaumont, Knt., 1st Lord
Beaumont, Earl of Buchan and Moray [in Scotland], hereditary Constable
of Scotland [Reference: Berkeley Castle Muniments, BCM/D/5/101/8].
Blanche of Lancaster was born about 1340–1343 (aged 18, 19, or 20 in
1361, aged 22 in 1362). This marriage agreement was subsequently
voided, and the marriage did not take place. Blanche of Lancaster
instead married John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster, about whom much has
been written in history books.
John de Segrave was next dispensed to marry on 25 March 1349 Blanche
Mowbray, daughter of John de Mowbray, Knt., 3rd Lord Mowbray, by his
1st wife, Joan, daughter of Henry of Lancaster, Knt., Earl of
Lancaster [Reference: Papal Registers: Letters, 3 (1897): 305,
http://books.google.com/books?id=AiDD_XU7P4kC&pg=PA305&dq=Papal+Registers+Blanche+Segrave].
This marriage actually took place, and is duly noted in a pedigree of
“… Predictus Johannes [de Segrave] nupsit Blanche filie Johannis
domini de Mowbraye, & obiit sine herede de se.” [Reference: Nichols,
History & Antiqs. of Leicestershire, 3(1) (1800): 240].
As John de Segrave was earlier contracted to marry another party, so
was Blanche Mowbray. I find that before she married John de Segrave,
Blanche Mowbray was contracted in May 1343 to marry Edward de Montagu,
son and heir apparent of Edward de Montagu, Knt., Lord Montagu, by his
1st wife, Alice, daughter and co-heiress of Thomas of Brotherton,
Knt., Earl of Norfolk, Marshal of England (younger son of King Edward
I). This marriage agreement was subsequently voided, and the marriage
of Blanche and Edward did not take place.
The death date of young John de Segrave is unknown, but he evidently
predeceased his father without issue sometime before 1 April 1353.
John de Segrave's widow, Blanche Mowbray, subsequently had four more
marriages. I find she married (2nd) before Nov. 1363 Robert Bertram,
Knt., Baron of Bothal, Northumberland; (3rd) before 5 June 1372 Thomas
de Poynings (or Ponynges), 2nd Lord Poynings; (4th) before 21 March
1377/8 John de Worth (or Worthe), Knt., and (5th) before 5 Nov. 1394
John de Wiltshire, Knt. Blanche was one of the noble ladies appointed
to meet King Richard II's wife, Isabel of France, in 1396, and to
attend her in 1401 to Calais on her return to France. Blanche died
without issue 21 July 1409.
I've presented below a copy of my current file account of young John
de Segrave, and his much married wife, Blanche Mowbray. Needless to
say, the records of this couple and Blanche's various other spouses
are scattered through many sources. The cross references below such
as "[see LANCASTER 7 for her ancestry]" are to my book, Plantagenet
Ancestry (2004). Those interested in obtaining a copy of that book or
my other book, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), may do so by contacting me
privately by e-mail.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + +
John de Segrave, son and heir apparent of Sir John de Segrave, Knt.,
4th Lord Segrave, and his wife, Blanche Mowbray
I. JOHN DE SEGRAVE (2nd son of that name), son and heir apparent. On
or about 4 May 1347 his father contracted him to marry BLANCHE OF
LANCASTER, younger daughter and co-heiress of Henry of Lancaster,
K.G., Duke of Lancaster, Earl of Derby, Lincoln, and Leicester,
Steward of England (descendant of King Henry III), by Isabel, daughter
of Henry de Beaumont, Knt., 1st Lord Beaumont, Earl of Buchan and
Moray [in Scotland], hereditary Constable of Scotland (descendant of
King Henry II) [see LANCASTER 7 for her ancestry]. She was born about
1340–1343 (aged 18, 19, or 20 in 1361, aged 22 in 1362). This
marriage agreement was voided, and the marriage did not take place.
John subsequently married by dispensation dated 25 March 1349 (they
being related in the 4th degree of kindred) BLANCHE MOWBRAY, daughter
of John de Mowbray, Knt., 3rd Lord Mowbray, by his 1st wife, Joan,
daughter of Henry of Lancaster, Knt., Earl of Lancaster [see MOWBRAY 8
for her ancestry]. JOHN DE SEGRAVE died without issue sometime before
1 April 1353. His widow, Blanche, married (2nd) (as his 2nd wife)
ROBERT BERTRAM, Knt., Baron of Bothal, Northumberland, Sheriff of
Northumberland. In 1358 Roger Mauduit, Knt., of Northumberland, owed
him a debt of £1000. In 1359 he owed a debt of £40 to Hugh de Mitton,
Citizen of York. The same year he and Thomas de Bretby owed a debt of
£200 to Richard de Stanhope, burgess of Newcastle-on-Tyne,
Northumberland. In 1359–1360 John de Cobham son of the Countess
Marshal quitclaimed the manor of Rolleston, Leicestershire to him. In
1362 he, Walter de Campden, clerk, and John Hatfield, citizen and
merchant of London, owed a debt of £500 to John Philipot, citizen of
London. In Nov. 1363 Robert had license to settle the castle and
manor of Bothal, Northumberland on himself and Blanche his wife, in
tail, with remainder to his right heirs. SIR ROBERT BERTRAM died in
1363, and was buried in the church of the Grey Friars, London. She
married (3rd) before 5 June 1372 THOMAS DE POYNINGS (or PONYNGES), 2nd
Lord Poynings, son and heir of Michael de Poynings, Knt., 1st Lord
Poynings, by his wife, Joan. He was born at Slaugham, Sussex, and
baptized there 19 April 1349. He was a legatee in the 1369 will of
his mother. He had an order for livery of his lands in May 1370. He
was going with John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster, in March 1372/3 on
the king’s proposed expedition to Gascony. He and his wife, Blanche,
attended the memorial service for Blanche, Duchess of Lancaster, John
of Gaunt’s 1st wife, in 1374, at the Duke’s expense. He was on the
commission for the peace for Sussex in 1375. THOMAS DE POYNINGS, 2nd
Lord Poynings, died shortly before 25 June 1375, and was buried in the
parish church of Poynings, Sussex. He left a will dated 28 Oct.
1374. His widow, Blanche, married (4th) before 21 March 1377/8 JOHN
DE WORTH (or WORTHE), Knt., Steward of the lands of Joan, Princess of
Wales and an executor of her will, son and heir of John de Worth,
Knt., by his 1st wife, Beatrice, daughter of Nicholas de Seymour (or
Saint Maur), Knt., 1st Lord Seymour. He was born about 1339 (aged 19
in 1358, of age in 1362). They had no issue. He was heir in 1358 to
his uncle, Thomas de Seymour, Knt. [see LISLE 5.i ]. In 1362 John de
Worth, as cousin and heir of Thomas de Seymour, conveyed two parts of
the manor of Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex to Roger Dalyngruge and
Alice his wife. In 1374 he released all his lands in Fletching,
Maresfield, and Horsted Keynes, Sussex to Roger Dalyngruge. In 1379
he successfully sued John Peyto, Knt. for the manor of Milcote (in
Weston-upon-Avon), Warwickshire, which he claimed as the heir of Joan
Trillowe. In 1382 he requested an assize of mort d’ancestor regarding
a messuage in St. Peter Bradestrete, London against Richard de
Seymour, Knt., John claiming the property as nephew and heir of Thomas
de Seymour, Knt. Both he and his wife, Blanche, Lady Poynings, were
excluded from court in Jan. 1388 by order of the Lords Appellant. On
the king’s restoration to independence, she returned to Court. SIR
JOHN DE WORTH died shortly before 1 June 1391. She married (5th)
before 5 Nov. 1394 JOHN WILTSHIRE, Knt., in right of his 2nd wife, of
Heylesdon and Drayton, Norfolk, Gentleman of the Earl of Arundel’s
household. They had no issue. In 1381 he was charged with having
rescued a prisoner from the custody of the Keeper of the Fleet. He
was granted letters of protection in 1386, he then about to serve John
of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster in Spain. In 1394 he and his wife,
Blanche, were granted the commote of Cymytmaen, Carnarvonshire, Wales
for life. He and his wife, Blanche, were granted certain messuages in
Calais in October 1395. Blanche was one of the noble ladies appointed
to meet Queen Isabel in 1396, and to attend her in 1401 to Calais on
her return to France. He was present in 1397 with Thomas, Archbishop
of Canterbury, and others when King Richard II promised Richard, Earl
of Arundel, that no harm should come to him, notwithstanding the earl
was immediately apprehended. Sir John obtained letters of protection
on going abroad in 1398. In 1402 he and Nicholas Hauberk, Knt. owed
£266 to William Brestour, Citizen and saddler of London. In October
1403 he, John Sutheron, and John Waleys, Esq. obtained letters of
general attorney. In April 1405 he served as proxy for Thomas, Earl
of Arundel and Surrey, at the Earl’s marriage is Lisbon to Beatrice of
Portugal. In 1406 he was made a trustee of Earl Thomas’ widespread
estates. His wife, Blanche, died 21 July 1409. She left a will dated
16 July 1409, requesting burial at St. Pancras Priory, Lewes, Sussex.
He married (2nd) Alice Heylesdon, widow of John Gurney, Esq. (died
1408), of Harpley, Drayton, and Heylesdon, Norfolk, and daughter and
heiress of John de Heylesdon, of Heylesdon and Drayton, Norfolk,
Citizen of London, by his wife, Joan. They had no issue. In 1412 he
was appointed a commissioner to settle a dispute respecting the ransom
of the Count of Denin. In 1415 he was nominated an executor of the
will of Thomas, Earl of Arundel. In 1422 he and other Arundel
feoffees demised the manor of Bignor, Sussex to Beatrice, Countess of
Arundel, for life. In 1423–1424 he and other Arundel feoffees demised
the manors of South Stoke, Warningcamp, etc. to John Clamorde, master,
and the chaplains of the college in the parish church of Arundel
founded by Richard, late Earl of Arundel. SIR JOHN WILTSHIRE died
before 13 Feb. 1429, and was buried in Lewes Priory, Sussex. His
widow, Alice, married (3rd) (as his 2nd wife) Richard Selling (or
Sellyng), Esq., of Heylesdon, Norfolk.
Nichols, Hist. & Antiqs. of Leicestershire 3(1) (1800): 240 (Segrave
pedigree from Chronicis apud Chaucombe: “… Predictus Johannes [de
Segrave] nupsit Blanche filie Johannis domini de Mowbraye, & obiit
sine herede de se.”). Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 82 (will
of Joan, Lady Poynings), 92–93 (will of Thomas de Poynings, 2nd Lord
Poynings), 122–123 (will of Richard de Poynings, 3rd Lord Poynings).
Coll. Top. et Gen. 1 (1834): 81–82. Williams, Chronicque de la
traïson et mort de Richart Deux roy Dengleterre (1846): 132. Gurney,
Rec. of the House of Gournay (1848): 374–381. Sussex Arch. Colls. 12
(1860): 221–231. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1377–1381 (1895): 308. Papal
Regs.: Petitions 1 (1896): 151. Papal Regs.: Letters 3 (1897): 305.
Cal. Patent Rolls, 1385–1389 (1900): 428 ([Blanche], lady de Ponynges,
styled “king’s kinswoman” by King Richard II of England). Rye, Cal.
of Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 254. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1422–
195, 197, 386 (instances of [Blanche], lady de Ponynges, styled
“king’s kinswoman” by King Richard II of England). Cal. Patent Rolls,
1399–1401 (1903): 86. Bateson, Cambridge Gild Records (Cambridge
Antiq. Soc. 39) (1903): 56-57. Gairdner, The Paston Letters, A.D.
1422–1509 2 (1904): 188–189. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1391–1396 (1905): 217
([Blanche], lady de Ponynges, styled “king’s kinswoman” by King
Richard II of England). D.N.B. 17 (1909): 1167 (biog. of Richard
Sellyng). John of Gaunt’s Register (Camden Soc.) (1911): no. 982
([Blanche], lady of Ponynges, styled “tres cher cousine” by John of
Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster in 1372). Cal. Patent Rolls, 1361–1364
(1912): 415, 488, 493. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1370–1374 (1914): 169
(Blanche Bertram, baroness of Bothel, styled “sister” of John de
Mowbray, lord of the isle of Axiholm). Kingsford The Grey Friars of
London (1915): 70–133 (“Et ad dexteram eius inmediate sub longo lapide
jacet dominus Robertus Bertram, baro de Bothale: qui obiit 21 …”), 134–
139. Cal. Close Rolls, 1399–1402 (1927): 94–96. Misc. Gen. et
Heraldica 5th Ser. 9 (1935–37): 162–168. Bull. John Rylands Library
21 (1937): 190, footnote 2. Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 661–662 (sub
Poynings); 11 (1945): 359, footnote i (sub Saint Maur). VCH Warwick 5
(1949): 198–202. Russell English Intervention in Spain & Portugal
(1955): 546. Segrave, Segrave Fam. 1066 to 1935 (1963): 51–54. Chew,
London Possessory Assizes: a Calendar (1965): 46–72 (no. 154). Roche,
Philippa: Dona Filipa of Portugal (1971): 78. Ancient Deeds—Series B
3 (List & Index Soc. 113) (1975): B.10,062–10,065. Davis, Paston
Letters & Papers of the Fifteenth Century 3 (1975): 100. Hector,
Westminster Chronicle 1381–1394 (1982): 230–231. Roskell, House of
Commons 1386–1421 4 (1992): 874–875 (biog. of John Wiltshire).
Archer, Rulers & Ruled in Late Medieval England (1995): 144. Leese,
Blood Royal (1996): 80–92. Saul, Richard II (1997): 454 (“A
particular favourite [of King Richard II] appears to have been
Blanche, Lady Poynings. In 1397 Richard presented her with a precious
ring, and in the following year he granted her £40 ‘of his gift.’ It
is hard to know what degree of affection lay behind Richard’s favour
to Lady Poynings and her like.”). National Archives, C 241/138/78; C
241/139/201; C 241/144/138; C 241/151/30; C 241/192/85; E 329/23; SC
8/139/6933 (abstract of documents available online at
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp). Berkeley
Castle Muniments, Reference: BCM/D/1/1/11 (marriage agreement of
Edward de Montagu and Blanche Mowbray dated 1343) (abstract of
document available online at http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
Berkeley Castle Muniments, BCM/D/5/101/8 (document relating to
contracted marriage of John de Segrave and Blanche of Lancaster dated
4 May 1347) (abstract of document available online at
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
Dear Douglas

I am trying to disentangle several John Segraves and I found this old 2014 post important to me for understanding the difference between your books and CP. For those who want a different link to the Cambridge Gilds Register here is one: https://archive.org/details/cambridgegildre00cunngoog/page/n102

(To remind everyone, google books links do not always work for all people in the same way.)

I wanted to check my understanding. I hope you can help.

1. You propose based on this register that John Segrave and his wife Margaret Marshall (daughter of Thomas Brotherton) that there are 3 more children apart from their daughter Elizabeth, the only one who survived her parents. You include two Johns.

2. You remark that it is surprising CP did not mention them. I suppose the reason CP would not list all children is that these ones all pre-deceased their mother and probably also their father? In general your remark about CP not listing all the children seems a bit odd because they normally don't? (And indeed your books quite often don't.)

3. More important I suppose is whether can confidently connect these records of 3 dead children to any other records. The most important conclusion you come to in this regard is that one of the sons named John must have been the one who married Blanche Mowbray, although he must have died quite soon after?

4. On the other hand I notice that CP actually did mention a John Segrave who had a wife Blanche in exactly this time. See Vol.11 p.609, note n.

THE QUERY. How can we reassure ourselves that this John Segrave of Folkestone is not the one who married Blanche Mowbray? I have not yet found an answer.

For convenience the IPMs which are cited by CP in that footnote can be found here:

no.598: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol9/406-422

no.295: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol9/pp248-275

no.463: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol8/pp308-330

And this Fine Rolls page: https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015017688956?urlappend=%3Bseq=341
Andrew Lancaster
2019-10-04 20:24:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Dear Douglas
I am trying to disentangle several John Segraves and I found this old 2014 post important to me for understanding the difference between your books and CP. For those who want a different link to the Cambridge Gilds Register here is one: https://archive.org/details/cambridgegildre00cunngoog/page/n102
(To remind everyone, google books links do not always work for all people in the same way.)
I wanted to check my understanding. I hope you can help.
1. You propose based on this register that John Segrave and his wife Margaret Marshall (daughter of Thomas Brotherton) that there are 3 more children apart from their daughter Elizabeth, the only one who survived her parents. You include two Johns.
2. You remark that it is surprising CP did not mention them. I suppose the reason CP would not list all children is that these ones all pre-deceased their mother and probably also their father? In general your remark about CP not listing all the children seems a bit odd because they normally don't? (And indeed your books quite often don't.)
3. More important I suppose is whether can confidently connect these records of 3 dead children to any other records. The most important conclusion you come to in this regard is that one of the sons named John must have been the one who married Blanche Mowbray, although he must have died quite soon after?
4. On the other hand I notice that CP actually did mention a John Segrave who had a wife Blanche in exactly this time. See Vol.11 p.609, note n.
THE QUERY. How can we reassure ourselves that this John Segrave of Folkestone is not the one who married Blanche Mowbray? I have not yet found an answer.
no.598: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol9/406-422
no.295: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol9/pp248-275
no.463: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol8/pp308-330
And this Fine Rolls page: https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015017688956?urlappend=%3Bseq=341
As an update, I see Chris Phillips addressed my question long ago and felt that the dispensation records at least confirmed that Blanche Mowbray was to marry a son of Lord Segrave, not a Segrave of Folkestone.

Old post: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/NUB8F4FFGTU/gY_bl35EICoJ

CP corrections and proposals on his website:

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/segrave.shtml

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/p_segrave.shtml

(I have not found a link online for the dispensations which I can access.)

It seems the question of who the second John Segrave of Folkestone did marry is still open though?? Could she have been another Blanche?

Best Regards
Andrew

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