Sir Edward Lewknor d.1522 -- Large Shield of 12 Arms - Help needed identifying ancestors 2 arms are associated with

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Hello Newsgroup,

In the Visitation of the County of Suffolk, 1561 with additions by William Hervey, there is a section that speaks about a Lewknor monument in small chapel within Denham Church erected for Sir Edward Lewknor and his wife Susan Heigham. On the monument are a number of arms, and one is a large shield of arms, which is the canopy centerpiece bearing 12 arms relating to Edward Lewknor's great-grandfather, Sir Edward Lewknor who died in 1522. In the visitation they are identified as:

(Written as in visitation as follows)

1 Lewkenor Azure 3 chevronels Argent a mullet for difference
2 Bardolphe Azure 3 cinquefoils Or
3 Tregose Azure 2 bars gemelles Or in chief a lion passant of the second
4 Dalingridge als Delahache Or a croaa engrailed Gules
5 Broos alias Bruce Gules 3 bara vairee Argent and Azure
6 Echingham Azure a fret Argent
7 Camoys Or on a chief Gules 3 bezants
8 Radmylde Barry of 6 Ermine and Gules
9 d’Oyley Gules 3 buck's heads caboshed Or 2 and 1
10 Noell 3 pales Gules in a field Or
11 Halsham Argent a chevron Gules between 3 torteaux
12 Lewkenor as above

https://books.google.ca/books?id=LCgAAAAAQAAJ&lpg=PA232&ots=MC2E1O6S7F&dq=%22Radmylde%2C%20Ralph%22&pg=PA231#v=onepage&q=%22Radmylde,%20Ralph%22&f=false
Pages 230-232 in visitation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lewknor_(died_1605) (has a picture of the monument)

1) Lewknor
2) Bardolph (Katherine Bardolph who married Sir Roger Lewknor d.1362/63)
3) Tregoz (Margaret de Tregoz who married John d’Oyley whose daughter Joan d’Oyley was married to Thomas Lewknor d.1375)
4) Dalingridge (Philippa Dalingridge who married Thomas Lewknor d.1452)
5) Broos alias Bruce (Braose?) ????? No idea who this relates to.
6) Echingham (Elizabeth de Echingham other wife of Thomas Lewknor d.1452)
7) Camoys (Margaret Camoys the wife of Ralph Radmylde parents of Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
8) Radmylde (Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
9) d’Oyley (Joan d’Oyley wife of Thomas Lewknor d.1375)
10) Noel(l) ????? No idea who this relates to.
11) Halsham (Jane Halsham mother of Ralph Radmylde who was the father of Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
12) Lewknor

There are two arms listed that I can’t place in the Lewknor ancestry. They are #5 Broos alias Bruce (which wikipedia lists in their entry about Edward Lewknor that mentions the monument as Braose), and #10 Noell.

I was wondering if anyone knew what Lewknor ancestors these two arms are related to.

Thanks,
Jordan Vandenberg.

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by Jordan Vandenberg
Hello Newsgroup,
(Written as in visitation as follows)
1 Lewkenor Azure 3 chevronels Argent a mullet for difference
2 Bardolphe Azure 3 cinquefoils Or
3 Tregose Azure 2 bars gemelles Or in chief a lion passant of the second
4 Dalingridge als Delahache Or a croaa engrailed Gules
5 Broos alias Bruce Gules 3 bara vairee Argent and Azure
6 Echingham Azure a fret Argent
7 Camoys Or on a chief Gules 3 bezants
8 Radmylde Barry of 6 Ermine and Gules
9 d’Oyley Gules 3 buck's heads caboshed Or 2 and 1
10 Noell 3 pales Gules in a field Or
11 Halsham Argent a chevron Gules between 3 torteaux
12 Lewkenor as above
https://books.google.ca/books?id=LCgAAAAAQAAJ&lpg=PA232&ots=MC2E1O6S7F&dq=%22Radmylde%2C%20Ralph%22&pg=PA231#v=onepage&q=%22Radmylde,%20Ralph%22&f=false
Pages 230-232 in visitation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lewknor_(died_1605) (has a picture of the monument)
1) Lewknor
2) Bardolph (Katherine Bardolph who married Sir Roger Lewknor d.1362/63)
3) Tregoz (Margaret de Tregoz who married John d’Oyley whose daughter Joan d’Oyley was married to Thomas Lewknor d.1375)
4) Dalingridge (Philippa Dalingridge who married Thomas Lewknor d.1452)
5) Broos alias Bruce (Braose?) ????? No idea who this relates to.
6) Echingham (Elizabeth de Echingham other wife of Thomas Lewknor d.1452)
7) Camoys (Margaret Camoys the wife of Ralph Radmylde parents of Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
8) Radmylde (Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
9) d’Oyley (Joan d’Oyley wife of Thomas Lewknor d.1375)
10) Noel(l) ????? No idea who this relates to.
11) Halsham (Jane Halsham mother of Ralph Radmylde who was the father of Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
12) Lewknor
There are two arms listed that I can’t place in the Lewknor ancestry. They are #5 Broos alias Bruce (which wikipedia lists in their entry about Edward Lewknor that mentions the monument as Braose), and #10 Noell.
I was wondering if anyone knew what Lewknor ancestors these two arms are related to.

This is a shot in the dark; but could the "Noel" arms just be a confusion for Etchingham Arms?

--Joe COok

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by j***@gmail.com

Post by Jordan Vandenberg
Hello Newsgroup,
(Written as in visitation as follows)
1 Lewkenor Azure 3 chevronels Argent a mullet for difference
2 Bardolphe Azure 3 cinquefoils Or
3 Tregose Azure 2 bars gemelles Or in chief a lion passant of the second
4 Dalingridge als Delahache Or a croaa engrailed Gules
5 Broos alias Bruce Gules 3 bara vairee Argent and Azure
6 Echingham Azure a fret Argent
7 Camoys Or on a chief Gules 3 bezants
8 Radmylde Barry of 6 Ermine and Gules
9 d’Oyley Gules 3 buck's heads caboshed Or 2 and 1
10 Noell 3 pales Gules in a field Or
11 Halsham Argent a chevron Gules between 3 torteaux
12 Lewkenor as above
https://books.google.ca/books?id=LCgAAAAAQAAJ&lpg=PA232&ots=MC2E1O6S7F&dq=%22Radmylde%2C%20Ralph%22&pg=PA231#v=onepage&q=%22Radmylde,%20Ralph%22&f=false
Pages 230-232 in visitation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lewknor_(died_1605) (has a picture of the monument)
1) Lewknor
2) Bardolph (Katherine Bardolph who married Sir Roger Lewknor d.1362/63)
3) Tregoz (Margaret de Tregoz who married John d’Oyley whose daughter Joan d’Oyley was married to Thomas Lewknor d.1375)
4) Dalingridge (Philippa Dalingridge who married Thomas Lewknor d.1452)
5) Broos alias Bruce (Braose?) ????? No idea who this relates to.
6) Echingham (Elizabeth de Echingham other wife of Thomas Lewknor d.1452)
7) Camoys (Margaret Camoys the wife of Ralph Radmylde parents of Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
8) Radmylde (Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
9) d’Oyley (Joan d’Oyley wife of Thomas Lewknor d.1375)
10) Noel(l) ????? No idea who this relates to.
11) Halsham (Jane Halsham mother of Ralph Radmylde who was the father of Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
12) Lewknor
There are two arms listed that I can’t place in the Lewknor ancestry. They are #5 Broos alias Bruce (which wikipedia lists in their entry about Edward Lewknor that mentions the monument as Braose), and #10 Noell.
I was wondering if anyone knew what Lewknor ancestors these two arms are related to.

This is a shot in the dark; but could the "Noel" arms just be a confusion for Etchingham Arms?
--Joe COok

Disregard' I misread this post..

[Vance Mead]

There are some in Alumni Cantabrigienses.

https://archive.org/details/p1alumnicantabri03univuoft/page/82

Apparently of Kingston Bowey, Sussex.

Post by Jordan Vandenberg
Hello Newsgroup,
(Written as in visitation as follows)
1 Lewkenor Azure 3 chevronels Argent a mullet for difference
2 Bardolphe Azure 3 cinquefoils Or
3 Tregose Azure 2 bars gemelles Or in chief a lion passant of the second
4 Dalingridge als Delahache Or a croaa engrailed Gules
5 Broos alias Bruce Gules 3 bara vairee Argent and Azure
6 Echingham Azure a fret Argent
7 Camoys Or on a chief Gules 3 bezants
8 Radmylde Barry of 6 Ermine and Gules
9 d’Oyley Gules 3 buck's heads caboshed Or 2 and 1
10 Noell 3 pales Gules in a field Or
11 Halsham Argent a chevron Gules between 3 torteaux
12 Lewkenor as above
https://books.google.ca/books?id=LCgAAAAAQAAJ&lpg=PA232&ots=MC2E1O6S7F&dq=%22Radmylde%2C%20Ralph%22&pg=PA231#v=onepage&q=%22Radmylde,%20Ralph%22&f=false
Pages 230-232 in visitation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lewknor_(died_1605) (has a picture of the monument)
1) Lewknor
2) Bardolph (Katherine Bardolph who married Sir Roger Lewknor d.1362/63)
3) Tregoz (Margaret de Tregoz who married John d’Oyley whose daughter Joan d’Oyley was married to Thomas Lewknor d.1375)
4) Dalingridge (Philippa Dalingridge who married Thomas Lewknor d.1452)
5) Broos alias Bruce (Braose?) ????? No idea who this relates to.
6) Echingham (Elizabeth de Echingham other wife of Thomas Lewknor d.1452)
7) Camoys (Margaret Camoys the wife of Ralph Radmylde parents of Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
8) Radmylde (Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
9) d’Oyley (Joan d’Oyley wife of Thomas Lewknor d.1375)
10) Noel(l) ????? No idea who this relates to.
11) Halsham (Jane Halsham mother of Ralph Radmylde who was the father of Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
12) Lewknor
There are two arms listed that I can’t place in the Lewknor ancestry. They are #5 Broos alias Bruce (which wikipedia lists in their entry about Edward Lewknor that mentions the monument as Braose), and #10 Noell.
I was wondering if anyone knew what Lewknor ancestors these two arms are related to.
Thanks,
Jordan Vandenberg.

[g***@gmail.com]

Thomas Noel of Ellenhall and Raunton d 1206 leaving two daughters as joint heirs. The younger daughter
Joan Noel m William de Duston. Their daughter
Rose de Dunston was heir of Raunton, b c 1195. She married John d’Oyly who was de jure Lord of Raunton. Their son, also
John d’Oyly, b c 1220 had a son also
John d’Oyly b c 1245 also Lord of Raunton. His son
Thomas d’Oyly m Margaret de Hastings. Their son
John d’Oyly b c 1310 and also Lord of Raunton married Margaret de Tregoz and their daughter
Joan d’Oyly b c 1350 married Thomas Lewkenor of Greatworth and Broadhurst. Their son
Roger Lewkenor m Margaret Carew, their son
Thomas Lewkenor m secondly Philippa Dalyngridge herself an heiress
Their descendants were therefore entitled to both the Dalyngridge, Noel and d’Oyly arms
This from Jim Weber’s Rootweb file, Stirnet, Burkes Peerage etc- see Jims files for references which I cannot vouch for
Don’t know about the Brus, Broos, Bruce connection
Hope this helps
Geoff

[John Higgins]

Post by g***@gmail.com
Thomas Noel of Ellenhall and Raunton d 1206 leaving two daughters as joint heirs. The younger daughter
Joan Noel m William de Duston. Their daughter
Rose de Dunston was heir of Raunton, b c 1195. She married John d’Oyly who was de jure Lord of Raunton. Their son, also
John d’Oyly, b c 1220 had a son also
John d’Oyly b c 1245 also Lord of Raunton. His son
Thomas d’Oyly m Margaret de Hastings. Their son
John d’Oyly b c 1310 and also Lord of Raunton married Margaret de Tregoz and their daughter
Joan d’Oyly b c 1350 married Thomas Lewkenor of Greatworth and Broadhurst. Their son
Roger Lewkenor m Margaret Carew, their son
Thomas Lewkenor m secondly Philippa Dalyngridge herself an heiress
Their descendants were therefore entitled to both the Dalyngridge, Noel and d’Oyly arms
This from Jim Weber’s Rootweb file, Stirnet, Burkes Peerage etc- see Jims files for references which I cannot vouch for
Don’t know about the Brus, Broos, Bruce connection
Hope this helps
Geoff

Jim Weber's database does not actually support this Noel-Dunston-D'Oyly connection. For a couple of the D'Oyly generations, he provides no source at all, while for a couple of other D'Oyly generations he cites BP 1999 - but the cited pages in BP do not actually mention the generations for which BP is being cited. There may be support for the Dunston-D'Oyly part of this descent, but it's not in the Weber database AFAIK.

As to the Noel-Dunston marriage which starts this descent, back in August 2018 Todd Farmerie mentioned this in a post concerning a different issue involving the Dunston family. The full thread is here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/john$20d$27oyly|sort:date/soc.genealogy.medieval/Qsm_1LOiNTM/5Tm9iIsnDwAJ

In the part pertinent to the Noel connection, Todd cited George Bridgeman, in Collections for a History of Staffs, vol. 1, 1880, p. 384, who says this regarding the Noel marriage:

"The Manor of Raunton was inherited by the Lewknors from the family of D'Oyly, who inherited from the Dunstons. It did not come, however, as Erdeswick and others have asserted, by the marriage of William Dunston with Joan daughter and coheiress of Thomas Noell, for the said Joan had for her only husband Roger fitz Eustace fitz Stephen, and her share of the Noell inheritance was transmitted to her issue by him. William de Dunston or Duston, who was Lord of Duston and Weekly, co. Northampton, was Lord of Raunton by no such marriage, but as feoffee of Thomas Noell, of whom he also held lands in Shropshire (Eyton's Ant. Shropsh., vol. iii, p. 136, and vol. viii, p. 208), and of whom and his successors, the Harcourts, he and his successors continued to hold the manor of Raunton and other lands. This William de Dunston died in 1218, leaving a son William, who died without issue in 1231, and three daughters, who became coheirs to their brother. Of these Isabella, the eldest, married Walter de Grey, Lord of Rotherfield, and had Duston, and two-thirds of her father's estate at Ditton in Kent, for her share. Rose, the second, married Sir John D'Oyly, Knight; and Joane, the youngest, married Manger le Vavasour, to whom she brought Weekly and a third of Ditton."

In the same post. Todd cited a discussion of the Dunston family appearing in vol. 1 of William Farrer's "Honours and Knights' Fees" (1923). At the time that source was available in only a snippet view via Google Books, but all three volumes of Farrer's work are now fully available via the FHL. The Dunston article there, although mentioning the Raunton property which later passed to the D'Oyly family, does not appear to mention any Noel marriage for the Dunstons.

It seems that the D'Oyly family believed that they had acquired the Raunton property via a long-ago marriage with the Noel family. but apparently that was not true.

[Richard Smith]

Post by Jordan Vandenberg
6 Echingham Azure a fret Argent

The normal form form of the Echingham arms is Azure, fretty argent, not
just a single fret. I know the individual fret originated as a
corruption of a fretty field, but by the 16th century, they were quite
separate charges.

Probably this is no importance, but it might be worth trying to verify
whether the arms actually displayed on the memorial do clearly only have
a single fret – it's possible there might be damage to the corners
making it impossible to be sure – and if so, then considering whether
these arms could have been misidentified.

Richard

[Peter Howarth]

Post by Richard Smith

Post by Jordan Vandenberg
6 Echingham Azure a fret Argent

The normal form form of the Echingham arms is Azure, fretty argent, not
just a single fret. I know the individual fret originated as a
corruption of a fretty field, but by the 16th century, they were quite
separate charges.

I agree that Echingham was originally ‘azure fretty argent’, but I am not convinced that fretty and a single fret were by the sixteenth century “quite separate charges”. What happened was that often fretty became a single fret, especially in the reduced area of a quarter. See for example the Despenser arms, where the second and third quarters were fretty in Glover’s Roll (c.1253) B 114, the Antiquaries’ Roll (c.1360) AN 98 and a brass to Robert Clere (1529), Ormesby St Margaret church, Norfolk; but just a single fret in the Galloway Roll (1300) GA 61, Willement’s Roll (c.1395) S 44 and on a seal (1430) of Richard de Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, Birch 7253.

And when we look in detail at Glover’s Roll above, we find that the original roll in blazon (c.1253) is now lost and we only have copies made much later. The two most reliable are those made Robert Glover, Somerset Herald 1570-88, and Robert Cooke, Clarenceux King of Arms 1567-93. Glover made his copy in 1586, copying the original names and blazon and adding tricks (outline drawings labelled with the tinctures). Cooke, also in 1586, just drew tricks. For entry B 114, Glover wrote 'Hugh’ le Despenser esquartele d’argent et de gules od un bend [de sable] lescu [le gu] frette d’or’ and drew his trick fretty. On the other hand, Cooke’s trick, based on the same original copy, just has a fret. (See H S London, ‘Glover’s and Walford’s Rolls’, Aspilogia II, London, 1967, p 137.) This all suggests that a fret and fretty were still interchangeable in the second half of the sixteenth century. I agree that later on, certainly by the nineteenth century, they had become separate charges.

In the Lewknor arms, quarterly of twelve, the quarters are severely reduced. I therefore don't feel that the single fret for Etchingham is of significance.

Peter Howarth

[Adrian Channing]

Post by Jordan Vandenberg
Hello Newsgroup,
(Written as in visitation as follows)
1 Lewkenor Azure 3 chevronels Argent a mullet for difference
2 Bardolphe Azure 3 cinquefoils Or
3 Tregose Azure 2 bars gemelles Or in chief a lion passant of the second
4 Dalingridge als Delahache Or a croaa engrailed Gules
5 Broos alias Bruce Gules 3 bara vairee Argent and Azure
6 Echingham Azure a fret Argent
7 Camoys Or on a chief Gules 3 bezants
8 Radmylde Barry of 6 Ermine and Gules
9 d’Oyley Gules 3 buck's heads caboshed Or 2 and 1
10 Noell 3 pales Gules in a field Or
11 Halsham Argent a chevron Gules between 3 torteaux
12 Lewkenor as above
https://books.google.ca/books?id=LCgAAAAAQAAJ&lpg=PA232&ots=MC2E1O6S7F&dq=%22Radmylde%2C%20Ralph%22&pg=PA231#v=onepage&q=%22Radmylde,%20Ralph%22&f=false
Pages 230-232 in visitation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lewknor_(died_1605) (has a picture of the monument)
1) Lewknor
2) Bardolph (Katherine Bardolph who married Sir Roger Lewknor d.1362/63)
3) Tregoz (Margaret de Tregoz who married John d’Oyley whose daughter Joan d’Oyley was married to Thomas Lewknor d.1375)
4) Dalingridge (Philippa Dalingridge who married Thomas Lewknor d.1452)
5) Broos alias Bruce (Braose?) ????? No idea who this relates to.
6) Echingham (Elizabeth de Echingham other wife of Thomas Lewknor d.1452)
7) Camoys (Margaret Camoys the wife of Ralph Radmylde parents of Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
8) Radmylde (Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
9) d’Oyley (Joan d’Oyley wife of Thomas Lewknor d.1375)
10) Noel(l) ????? No idea who this relates to.
11) Halsham (Jane Halsham mother of Ralph Radmylde who was the father of Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
12) Lewknor
There are two arms listed that I can’t place in the Lewknor ancestry. They are #5 Broos alias Bruce (which wikipedia lists in their entry about Edward Lewknor that mentions the monument as Braose), and #10 Noell.
I was wondering if anyone knew what Lewknor ancestors these two arms are related to.
Thanks,
Jordan Vandenberg.

On 01/02/07 (I guess 2 Jan, but in UK 1 Feb) Douglas Richardson message entitled "Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, and his Despenser connection" gave details of a tapestry called the "Lewknor Carpet" thought to date from 1562 which contains the Lewknor coat of arms. I have not tried to identified the families therein, but perhaps it would be of some help. The information came from Sussex Archaelogical Collection 70 (1929): 1-7. DR gave a web address for this, but does not work for me today, although I have retained a copy of the tapestry.

[John Higgins]

Post by Adrian Channing

Post by Jordan Vandenberg
Hello Newsgroup,
(Written as in visitation as follows)
1 Lewkenor Azure 3 chevronels Argent a mullet for difference
2 Bardolphe Azure 3 cinquefoils Or
3 Tregose Azure 2 bars gemelles Or in chief a lion passant of the second
4 Dalingridge als Delahache Or a croaa engrailed Gules
5 Broos alias Bruce Gules 3 bara vairee Argent and Azure
6 Echingham Azure a fret Argent
7 Camoys Or on a chief Gules 3 bezants
8 Radmylde Barry of 6 Ermine and Gules
9 d’Oyley Gules 3 buck's heads caboshed Or 2 and 1
10 Noell 3 pales Gules in a field Or
11 Halsham Argent a chevron Gules between 3 torteaux
12 Lewkenor as above
https://books.google.ca/books?id=LCgAAAAAQAAJ&lpg=PA232&ots=MC2E1O6S7F&dq=%22Radmylde%2C%20Ralph%22&pg=PA231#v=onepage&q=%22Radmylde,%20Ralph%22&f=false
Pages 230-232 in visitation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lewknor_(died_1605) (has a picture of the monument)
1) Lewknor
2) Bardolph (Katherine Bardolph who married Sir Roger Lewknor d.1362/63)
3) Tregoz (Margaret de Tregoz who married John d’Oyley whose daughter Joan d’Oyley was married to Thomas Lewknor d.1375)
4) Dalingridge (Philippa Dalingridge who married Thomas Lewknor d.1452)
5) Broos alias Bruce (Braose?) ????? No idea who this relates to.
6) Echingham (Elizabeth de Echingham other wife of Thomas Lewknor d.1452)
7) Camoys (Margaret Camoys the wife of Ralph Radmylde parents of Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
8) Radmylde (Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
9) d’Oyley (Joan d’Oyley wife of Thomas Lewknor d.1375)
10) Noel(l) ????? No idea who this relates to.
11) Halsham (Jane Halsham mother of Ralph Radmylde who was the father of Sir Edward Lewknor’s mother Elizabeth Radmylde)
12) Lewknor
There are two arms listed that I can’t place in the Lewknor ancestry. They are #5 Broos alias Bruce (which wikipedia lists in their entry about Edward Lewknor that mentions the monument as Braose), and #10 Noell.
I was wondering if anyone knew what Lewknor ancestors these two arms are related to.
Thanks,
Jordan Vandenberg.

On 01/02/07 (I guess 2 Jan, but in UK 1 Feb) Douglas Richardson message entitled "Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, and his Despenser connection" gave details of a tapestry called the "Lewknor Carpet" thought to date from 1562 which contains the Lewknor coat of arms. I have not tried to identified the families therein, but perhaps it would be of some help. The information came from Sussex Archaelogical Collection 70 (1929): 1-7. DR gave a web address for this, but does not work for me today, although I have retained a copy of the tapestry.

It appears that much of the information in the 1929 SAC article has been captured in the blogpost mentioned below. Scroll down to (or search for) "The Lewkenor [sic] Carpet">
http://wasfu-man-dedishamhistory.blogspot.com/

However, it may not add much to the discussion in the current thread....