Discussion:
English/British Heirs by Absolute Primogeniture
(too old to reply)
Louis Epstein
2019-01-28 19:37:25 UTC
Permalink
When the Succession to the Crown Act was enacted,
much fuss was made about how the British throne might have
descended had it applied to descendants from Queen Victoria.

Much as I prefer the principle of absolute primogeniture for any
newly created title I regard it as more important that rules for
a title never change once established if the new rule having applied
since creation of the title would have resulted in any person who
historically succeeded not doing so.

Obviously if a princess ranked ahead of her younger brother in
succession her being sent off to a foreign court or betrothed to
a wealthy subject in marriage would have been entirely different
considerations and historical descendants of such princesses might
well never have been born.

Regardless...even leaving out Scotland (though James I of England
was absolute primogeniture heir of James II of Scotland,the
succession from James I of Scotland or earlier monarchs would
have diverged) there are numerous previous points of divergence
had the system of "Heirs Numenorean" (Tolkien posited this law
of succession for the throne of Numenor before any earthly kings
adopted it) applied at that point.

Certain successions may be held to have established particular
principles as applying at the time (Alfred the Great in place
of his elder brother's young sons as requiring an adult,or
Henry I's descendants in place of his elder sister's as requiring
preference for male lines,or George I's as requiring Protestantism)
but if we are to retrospectively apply indifference to those matters:

Descendants of Alfred the Great's elder brother probably exist
but the lines are fuzzy from the early generations on.

Edmund the Elder was the son of Edward the Elder's third marriage,
and among the children of his second marriage Ethelwerd/Aelfweard
is said by Patrick Montague-Smith to have left descendants;
in any case his sisters who married Charles the Simple
and Otto the Great left descendants.

As for the post-Conquest:

DIVERGING PRINCESS:St. Adela of Normandy,Countess of Blois
ELDER SISTER OF:Henry I
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Elder brothers of King Stephen,such as
William Count of Sully or Theobald of Blois
(Queen Elizabeth is a descendant,though not the absolute
primogeniture heir)

DIVERGING PRINCESS:Matilda,Duchess of Saxony
ELDER SISTER OF:Richard Coeur de Lion (and John)
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Herman VI of Baden unless his sisters were older

DIVERGING PRINCESS:Eleanor,Countess of Bar
ELDER SISTER OF:Edward II (and three other sisters older than
Edward who also left descendants)
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Jeanne of Bar

DIVERGING PRINCESS:Isabella Countess of Bedford
ELDER SISTER OF:all children of Edward III other than the Prince
of Wales,pre-empting Clarence,Lancaster,or York claims
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Jeanne of Bar (intermarriage with line
immediately above...I believe after 1799 (death of
Elector of Bavaria) this line reverts to Dukes of Arenberg
unless I've missed some elder sisters en route)

DIVERGING PRINCESS:Anne of York,Duchess of Exeter
ELDER SISTER OF:Edward IV (and Richard III)
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Anne St. Leger,Baroness de Ros
(Viscount De L'Isle is the accepted heir general
but not all instances of a sister being older than
a brother are clear)

DIVERGING PRINCESS:Elizabeth of York
ELDER SISTER OF:Edward V
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Margaret Tudor (below)

DIVERGING PRINCESS:Margaret Tudor,Queen of Scotland
ELDER SISTER OF:Henry VIII
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Elizabeth Stuart (below)

DIVERGING PRINCESS:Elizabeth Stuart,Queen of Bohemia
ELDER SISTER OF:Charles I
HEIRESS:Margherita Archduchess of Austria-Este

DIVERGING PRINCESS:Augusta of Hanover,Duchess of Brunswick-Wolffenbuttel
ELDER SISTER OF:George III
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:House of Wurttemberg...Prince Alexander of Wied?

DIVERGING PRINCESS:Victoria,Princess Royal,Empress Frederick
ELDER SISTER OF:Edward VII
HEIRESS:Friederike Von der Osten.

Does anyone have any improvements upon the above?

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
taf
2019-01-28 22:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Epstein
Much as I prefer the principle of absolute primogeniture for any
newly created title I regard it as more important that rules for
a title never change once established if the new rule having applied
since creation of the title would have resulted in any person who
historically succeeded not doing so.
This seems to be predicated on an assumption that there has been a single consistent rule of succession from the foundation of the title. If English royal history tells you anything, it is that the rules have been made up as they went along, and changed when the exigencies of realpolitik called for it.
Post by Louis Epstein
Certain successions may be held to have established particular
principles as applying at the time (Alfred the Great in place
of his elder brother's young sons as requiring an adult,
This is putting it backwards. An infant son succeeding would have been the anomaly, and for that matter, father-son succession was atypical in the Wessex kingdom down to this point, but then, so was brother-brother succession. The real anomaly was Edward succeeding Alfred, and that didn't happen without a rebellion by AEthelred's son.
Post by Louis Epstein
or
Henry I's descendants in place of his elder sister's as requiring
preference for male lines,
This had entirely to do with the unique circumstances involving Stephen and Matilda, and did not establish any principle (there has not been an analogous situation since).
Post by Louis Epstein
or George I's as requiring Protestantism)
It was not his succession that established this, it was the Act of Parliament that did. If anything, this reaffirmed the right of Parliament to establish the succession as they saw fit. In that sense, the recent Act did not change the overarching rule of succession, which is that it is whatever Parliament says it is.
Post by Louis Epstein
Edmund the Elder was the son of Edward the Elder's third marriage,
and among the children of his second marriage Ethelwerd/Aelfweard
is said by Patrick Montague-Smith to have left descendants;
On what possible basis?
Post by Louis Epstein
DIVERGING PRINCESS:St. Adela of Normandy,Countess of Blois
ELDER SISTER OF:Henry I
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Elder brothers of King Stephen,such as
William Count of Sully or Theobald of Blois
(Queen Elizabeth is a descendant,though not the absolute
primogeniture heir)
The succession after the deaths of both William I and Henry I just prove there were no rules, other than the Golden Rule (he who has the gold . . . ) One would be hard-pressed to make an argument for any rule existing between the reigns of William I and Henry II.

taf
Richard Smith
2019-01-29 16:03:02 UTC
Permalink
This is putting it backwards. An infant son succeeding would have
been the anomaly, and for that matter, father-son succession was
atypical in the Wessex kingdom down to this point, but then, so was
brother-brother succession. The real anomaly was Edward succeeding
Alfred, and that didn't happen without a rebellion by AEthelred's son.
When you talk about Æthelred's son, are you referring to Alfred's
nephew, Æthelwald? If so, he did rebel against Edward the Elder and
died in the attempt at the Battle of Holme. Or have I misunderstood who
you're talking about?

Richard
taf
2019-01-29 16:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Smith
This is putting it backwards. An infant son succeeding would have
been the anomaly, and for that matter, father-son succession was
atypical in the Wessex kingdom down to this point, but then, so was
brother-brother succession. The real anomaly was Edward succeeding
Alfred, and that didn't happen without a rebellion by AEthelred's son.
When you talk about Æthelred's son, are you referring to Alfred's
nephew, Æthelwald? If so, he did rebel against Edward the Elder and
died in the attempt at the Battle of Holme. Or have I misunderstood who
you're talking about?
I said (perhaps confusingly with a double negative) that it _didn't_ happen _without_ a rebellion. It was AEthelwold's rebellion to which I referred.

taf
Richard Smith
2019-01-29 17:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Richard Smith
This is putting it backwards. An infant son succeeding would have
been the anomaly, and for that matter, father-son succession was
atypical in the Wessex kingdom down to this point, but then, so was
brother-brother succession. The real anomaly was Edward succeeding
Alfred, and that didn't happen without a rebellion by AEthelred's son.
When you talk about Æthelred's son, are you referring to Alfred's
nephew, Æthelwald? If so, he did rebel against Edward the Elder and
died in the attempt at the Battle of Holme. Or have I misunderstood who
you're talking about?
I said (perhaps confusingly with a double negative) that it _didn't_
happen _without_ a rebellion. It was AEthelwold's rebellion to which
I referred.
Ah, apologies. Yes, rereading what you wrote it should have been clear.

Richard
taf
2019-01-29 18:22:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Smith
Ah, apologies. Yes, rereading what you wrote it should have been clear.
No apologies necessary. I am glad it is clear now.

taf
Hovite
2019-02-11 13:36:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Epstein
Edmund the Elder was the son of Edward the Elder's third marriage,
and among the children of his second marriage Ethelwerd/Aelfweard
is said by Patrick Montague-Smith to have left descendants;
Ælfweard died sixteen days after his father. He is not known to have married or left descendants.

There may have been some confusion with Æthelweard the Historian, Earldorman of the West Country. He was a great-great-grandson King Æthelræd I, and left a son and grand-children.

https://ia800503.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/2/items/anglosaxonbisho00sear/anglosaxonbisho00sear_jp2.zip&file=anglosaxonbisho00sear_jp2/anglosaxonbisho00sear_0451.jp2&scale=4&rotate=0

Another line of interest:

Æthelflæd, eldest child of King Ælfræd, was wife and successor of Æthelræd, Ealdorman of Mercia. She was briefly succeeded in Mercia by her daughter Ælfwynn, whose ultimate fate is unknown (but was probably sent to a nunnery).

https://ia800503.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/2/items/anglosaxonbisho00sear/anglosaxonbisho00sear_jp2.zip&file=anglosaxonbisho00sear_jp2/anglosaxonbisho00sear_0406.jp2&scale=4&rotate=0

Other families existed, but their affiliation to the royal line is undocumented, and the males tended to get slaughtered by Danes.
Louis Epstein
2019-02-13 20:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Epstein
When the Succession to the Crown Act was enacted,
much fuss was made about how the British throne might have
descended had it applied to descendants from Queen Victoria.
Much as I prefer the principle of absolute primogeniture for any
newly created title I regard it as more important that rules for
a title never change once established if the new rule having applied
since creation of the title would have resulted in any person who
historically succeeded not doing so.
Obviously if a princess ranked ahead of her younger brother in
succession her being sent off to a foreign court or betrothed to
a wealthy subject in marriage would have been entirely different
considerations and historical descendants of such princesses might
well never have been born.
Regardless...even leaving out Scotland (though James I of England
was absolute primogeniture heir of James II of Scotland,the
succession from James I of Scotland or earlier monarchs would
have diverged) there are numerous previous points of divergence
had the system of "Heirs Numenorean" (Tolkien posited this law
of succession for the throne of Numenor before any earthly kings
adopted it) applied at that point.
Certain successions may be held to have established particular
principles as applying at the time (Alfred the Great in place
of his elder brother's young sons as requiring an adult,or
Henry I's descendants in place of his elder sister's as requiring
preference for male lines,or George I's as requiring Protestantism)
Descendants of Alfred the Great's elder brother probably exist
but the lines are fuzzy from the early generations on.
Edmund the Elder was the son of Edward the Elder's third marriage,
and among the children of his second marriage Ethelwerd/Aelfweard
is said by Patrick Montague-Smith to have left descendants;
in any case his sisters who married Charles the Simple
and Otto the Great left descendants.
DIVERGING PRINCESS:St. Adela of Normandy,Countess of Blois
ELDER SISTER OF:Henry I
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Elder brothers of King Stephen,such as
William Count of Sully or Theobald of Blois
(Queen Elizabeth is a descendant,though not the absolute
primogeniture heir)
DIVERGING PRINCESS:Matilda,Duchess of Saxony
ELDER SISTER OF:Richard Coeur de Lion (and John)
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Herman VI of Baden unless his sisters were older
DIVERGING PRINCESS:Eleanor,Countess of Bar
ELDER SISTER OF:Edward II (and three other sisters older than
Edward who also left descendants)
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Jeanne of Bar
DIVERGING PRINCESS:Isabella Countess of Bedford
ELDER SISTER OF:all children of Edward III other than the Prince
of Wales,pre-empting Clarence,Lancaster,or York claims
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Jeanne of Bar (intermarriage with line
immediately above...I believe after 1799 (death of
Elector of Bavaria) this line reverts to Dukes of Arenberg
unless I've missed some elder sisters en route)
This line appears to lead to an uncle and now a first cousin of
(believe it or not) Princess Michael of Kent.Her mother was the
younger sister of Laszlo Szapary.

King Edward I died 1307.
His daughter Eleanor (1269-1298) was older than Edward II (1284-1327).
Her son Edward Count of Bar was a minor when he succeeded to Bar in 1302
and died in 1336.
Eleanor's daughter Joan died in 1361 and if she was older was the
heir in preference to Edward and his children but appears to have
had no children of her own.
Edward's three children were Henry IV of Bar(1315?-1344),Eleanor,and
Beatrice;
I'd welcome information on their birth order.Eleanor died in 1332
after a brief childless marriage,if Beatrice was older than Henry
AND her husband Guido Gonzaga's descendants were by her,
the people listed below are not absolute-primogeniture heirs of
Edward I but only of Edward III after the de Coucy marriage.
Edward II of Bar was born 1339,and (unless Joan was older than Edward)
presumed heir 1344-1352...this is the format I use below,
with each person listed the child of
the one above unless another relationship is specified:
(birth year,heirship start year-death year)...persons who were
in the line of descent to heirs but were never heir themselves are
in square brackets:[name birth year-death year]
Robert I of Bar(1344,1352-1411)
[Henry of Bar(1362?-1397) married Marie de Coucy(1366-1404/5),elder
daughter of Isabella Countess of Bedford]
Robert of Bar(1390,1411-1415)
Jeanne of Bar(1415,1415-1462)
John of Luxemburg(?,1462-1476)
Jacqueline of Luxemburg(?,1476-1511)[SISTER...presuming she was older than
her other brothers and her sister Helene]
Henry de Croy(?,1511-1514)
Philip II de Croy(1496,1514-1549)
Charles II de Croy(1522,1549-1551)
Louise de Croy(1524,1551-1585)[SISTER]
Philip III de Croy(1526,1585-1595)[BROTHER]
Charles III de Croy(1560,1595-1612)
Anne de Croy(1563,1612-1635)[SISTER]
Philippe Charles of Arenberg(1587,1635-1640)
Philippe Francois 1st Duke of Arenberg(1625,1640-1674)
Charles Eugene,2nd Duke of Arenberg(1633,1674-1681)[BROTHER]
Philippe Charles,3rd Duke of Arenberg(1663,1681-1691)
Marie Anne d'Arenberg (1689,1691-1736)
[Anne Henriette de la Tour d'Auvergne 1708-1728]
Karl Theodor,Elector Palatine (1724,1736-1799)
The Elector left no legitimate issue in 1799,
so we revert to the line of
Marie Anne's younger brother,
[Leopold Philippe 4th Duke of Arenberg 1690-1754]
[Charles 5th Duke of Arenberg 1721-1778][older sisters Marie Victoire
1714-93 and Marie Adelaide 1719-1792 were childless]
and resume succession with
Louis 6th Duke of Arenberg(1750,1799-1820)
[Pauline d' Arenberg 1774-1810]
Marie Eleonore of Schwarzenberg (1796,1820-1848)
Alfred II of Windisch-Graetz(1819,1848-1876) [older sister Aglae 1818-43
childless??]
Alfred III of Windisch-Graetz (1851,1876-1927)
[Hedwig of Windisch-Graetz 1878-1918]
Laszlo Graf Szapary de Muraszombath(1910,1927-1998)
Christina,Nikolaus,or Peter?(not known to me,1998- )
Post by Louis Epstein
DIVERGING PRINCESS:Anne of York,Duchess of Exeter
ELDER SISTER OF:Edward IV (and Richard III)
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Anne St. Leger,Baroness de Ros
(Viscount De L'Isle is the accepted heir general
but not all instances of a sister being older than
a brother are clear)
DIVERGING PRINCESS:Elizabeth of York
ELDER SISTER OF:Edward V
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Margaret Tudor (below)
DIVERGING PRINCESS:Margaret Tudor,Queen of Scotland
ELDER SISTER OF:Henry VIII
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:Elizabeth Stuart (below)
DIVERGING PRINCESS:Elizabeth Stuart,Queen of Bohemia
ELDER SISTER OF:Charles I
HEIRESS:Margherita Archduchess of Austria-Este
DIVERGING PRINCESS:Augusta of Hanover,Duchess of Brunswick-Wolffenbuttel
ELDER SISTER OF:George III
HEIR TRACES THROUGH:House of Wurttemberg...Prince Alexander of Wied?
DIVERGING PRINCESS:Victoria,Princess Royal,Empress Frederick
ELDER SISTER OF:Edward VII
HEIRESS:Friederike Von der Osten.
Does anyone have any improvements upon the above?
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Olivier
2019-02-14 10:15:22 UTC
Permalink
To do the same from King Edward Ist, I found a Danish citizen Hendrik Carl Willem Moltke born in 1941.

Edward I
Eleanor
Edouard of Bar
Henri
Robert
Yolande
Marie of Anjou
Yolande of France
Anne of Savoy
Carlotta of Aragona
Anne of Laval
Louis of La Trémoïlle
Claude
Henri
Henri Charles
Charlotte Amélie
Anton II von Aldenburg
Charlotte Sophie
Anton Bentinck
Willem
Otteline
Gustavine van Nagell
Johan Huyssen van Kattendijke
Hendrik
Helene
Henrik Moltke

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