Discussion:
Daumarle, Grenville, Cokyn, Derneford
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J. Sardina
2021-10-23 17:32:01 UTC
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Hello,

While trying to research certain Coykins or Cokyns of Devon and Cornwall, i came across the following wikipedia article that gives a summary of heiresses of Gidleigh Castle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gidleigh_Castle

Some time after the ca. 1393 death of Sir John Daumarle, Alice de Moels' son, his inheritance including the manor of Gidleigh and thus its castle was claimed by Joan (née Cokyn), a granddaughter of his sister and wife of John Dernford, alias Carnadon. She, in turn, left a sole daughter and heiress upon her death in 1454, who took the inheritance to the Coode family of Morval.[7]

The page does not say that these women held the castle.

and reference 7 is to Picken, W. M. M. (1963). "The Descent of Coode of Morval from Prouz, Moeles and Daumarle". Devon and Cornwall Notes and Queries, Vol. XXIX. pp. 142–145

I am trying to confirm the paternal family of Joan in particular.

This succession seems to correspond in part to what is stated in another website, https://www.lustleigh-society.org.uk/the-early-lords-of-the-manor-of-lustleigh-1/

On the death of Sir William le Prous in 1316, the manor passed to his daughter Emma, who was married to Roger de Moelis. From then on several ancestors and relatives of theirs held the manor of Lustleigh: Firstly inherited by their daughter Alice de Moelis and her husband John Daumarle. Secondly by their son – Sir John Daumarle and his wife Isabella. Thirdly – as John and Isabella had no children – the manor passed to Clarice, Sir John’s sister. She was married to Richard Grenville. There is some uncertainty as to who succeeded them, as by rights it should have been Clarice’s daughter Alice Carndon and thereafter to their daughter and her husband – Joan and John Durford. Historical evidence suggests that these three women were tricked out of their rightful inheritance by the machinations of the sons of Isabella by her first marriage to John Tremayne.

Which adds Carndon as last name for Alice, or possibly to her husband, and the name of Clarice's husband, apparently a Grenville.

The wikipedia seems to say that Clarice's daughter Joanna was married to a man whose alias was Carnadon, or Carndon.

A third website , http://www.teachergenealogist007.com/2020/10/henry-cokyn-alice-caryndoun.html

seems to make Joanna a daughter of Henry Cokayn, and gives a citation to an undated document:

Child of Henry and Alice:

i. Joan Cokayn (262595), born ~1382 in Gidleigh, Cornwall, England.

[Undated] John Deneford and Johanne, his wife, daughter of Alice, daughter of Clarice, sister of John Daumarle (d.1392), of Devon, knight, vs. Nicholas Tremayn, feoffee to uses. Manors, advowsons, and lands in Flute Daumarle, Sydenham, Guddelegh, Northhiwyssh, Throulegh, and Seintmarie Tavy; a rent in Colyton; land in Holbeghton and Witcherche. (s)

The citation seems to be to:
(S) Lists and Indexes, Iss16, 1903, P485.

It turns out there is a document in the National Archives that may be the source of this pedigree.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7452364


Short title: Derneford v Tremayn. Plaintiffs: John Derneford and Johanne, his wife,...


Reference: C 1/68/69
Description:
Short title: Derneford v Tremayn.

Plaintiffs: John Derneford and Johanne, his wife, daughter of Alice, daughter of Clarice, sister of John Daumarle, of Devon, knight.

Defendants: Nicholas Tremayn, feoffee to uses.

Subject: Manors, advowsons, and lands in Flute Daumarle, Sydenham, Guddelegh, Northiwyssh, Throulegh, and Seintmarie Tavy; a rent in Colyton; land in Holbeghton and Whitcherche. Devon

Date: 1386-1486
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Language: French
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description

I would like to confirm these lines and find out more about Joanna's paternal family.

J. Sardina
J. Sardina
2021-10-23 18:10:47 UTC
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Post by J. Sardina
Hello,
While trying to research certain Coykins or Cokyns of Devon and Cornwall, i came across the following wikipedia article that gives a summary of heiresses of Gidleigh Castle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gidleigh_Castle
Some time after the ca. 1393 death of Sir John Daumarle, Alice de Moels' son, his inheritance including the manor of Gidleigh and thus its castle was claimed by Joan (née Cokyn), a granddaughter of his sister and wife of John Dernford, alias Carnadon. She, in turn, left a sole daughter and heiress upon her death in 1454, who took the inheritance to the Coode family of Morval.[7]
The page does not say that these women held the castle.
and reference 7 is to Picken, W. M. M. (1963). "The Descent of Coode of Morval from Prouz, Moeles and Daumarle". Devon and Cornwall Notes and Queries, Vol. XXIX. pp. 142–145
I am trying to confirm the paternal family of Joan in particular.
This succession seems to correspond in part to what is stated in another website, https://www.lustleigh-society.org.uk/the-early-lords-of-the-manor-of-lustleigh-1/
On the death of Sir William le Prous in 1316, the manor passed to his daughter Emma, who was married to Roger de Moelis. From then on several ancestors and relatives of theirs held the manor of Lustleigh: Firstly inherited by their daughter Alice de Moelis and her husband John Daumarle. Secondly by their son – Sir John Daumarle and his wife Isabella. Thirdly – as John and Isabella had no children – the manor passed to Clarice, Sir John’s sister. She was married to Richard Grenville. There is some uncertainty as to who succeeded them, as by rights it should have been Clarice’s daughter Alice Carndon and thereafter to their daughter and her husband – Joan and John Durford. Historical evidence suggests that these three women were tricked out of their rightful inheritance by the machinations of the sons of Isabella by her first marriage to John Tremayne.
Which adds Carndon as last name for Alice, or possibly to her husband, and the name of Clarice's husband, apparently a Grenville.
The wikipedia seems to say that Clarice's daughter Joanna was married to a man whose alias was Carnadon, or Carndon.
A third website , http://www.teachergenealogist007.com/2020/10/henry-cokyn-alice-caryndoun.html
i. Joan Cokayn (262595), born ~1382 in Gidleigh, Cornwall, England.
[Undated] John Deneford and Johanne, his wife, daughter of Alice, daughter of Clarice, sister of John Daumarle (d.1392), of Devon, knight, vs. Nicholas Tremayn, feoffee to uses. Manors, advowsons, and lands in Flute Daumarle, Sydenham, Guddelegh, Northhiwyssh, Throulegh, and Seintmarie Tavy; a rent in Colyton; land in Holbeghton and Witcherche. (s)
(S) Lists and Indexes, Iss16, 1903, P485.
It turns out there is a document in the National Archives that may be the source of this pedigree.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7452364
Short title: Derneford v Tremayn. Plaintiffs: John Derneford and Johanne, his wife,...
Reference: C 1/68/69
Short title: Derneford v Tremayn.
Plaintiffs: John Derneford and Johanne, his wife, daughter of Alice, daughter of Clarice, sister of John Daumarle, of Devon, knight.
Defendants: Nicholas Tremayn, feoffee to uses.
Subject: Manors, advowsons, and lands in Flute Daumarle, Sydenham, Guddelegh, Northiwyssh, Throulegh, and Seintmarie Tavy; a rent in Colyton; land in Holbeghton and Whitcherche. Devon
Date: 1386-1486
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Language: French
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
I would like to confirm these lines and find out more about Joanna's paternal family.
J. Sardina
And to add to the sites above, the line of Johanna Cokeyn is shown in THE VISITATIONS OF THE COUNTY OF CORNWALL, edited by Vivian. on page 94 for COODE OF MORVAL.
The arms of this family are described as Arg. a chevron Gu. between three cocks Sa. armed , crested ,
and jelloped of the second ; quartering, Gu. three crescents Or.

which sound a bit like the arms for various Cokaynes.

Clarissa is shown married to one John Birrie, with her daughter Alicia marrying John Carndon, of whom nothing is given.
Alicia and John are shown as the parents of one daughter, Alicia, who is shown marrying Henricus Cokeyne.
Of this one there is a note saying he is named in the deed of enfeoffment dated fifth of Henry IV given at Caryndon, but unfortunately no more details are given.

J. Sardina
taf
2021-10-24 00:30:27 UTC
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Post by J. Sardina
While trying to research certain Coykins or Cokyns of Devon and Cornwall, i
came across the following wikipedia article that gives a summary of heiresses
of Gidleigh Castle.
There were probably a dozen articles in D&CN&Q and TDA discussing Gidlegh, Lustleigh and their inheritance, many of which give contradictory pedigrees, so you might want to be a little careful trusting Wikipedia, where often an editor has simply summarized the one article they have seen,being unaware of others giving different information (that or cherry-picking specific details and ignoring contradictory ones). That said, the Coode article was one of the better ones.
Post by J. Sardina
Reference: C 1/68/69
Short title: Derneford v Tremayn.
Plaintiffs: John Derneford and Johanne, his wife, daughter of Alice, daughter of Clarice, sister of John Daumarle, of Devon, knight.
Defendants: Nicholas Tremayn, feoffee to uses.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no68/IMG_0082.htm

taf
J. Sardina
2021-10-24 18:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by J. Sardina
While trying to research certain Coykins or Cokyns of Devon and Cornwall, i
came across the following wikipedia article that gives a summary of heiresses
of Gidleigh Castle.
There were probably a dozen articles in D&CN&Q and TDA discussing Gidlegh, Lustleigh and their inheritance, many of which give contradictory pedigrees, so you might want to be a little careful trusting Wikipedia, where often an editor has simply summarized the one article they have seen,being unaware of others giving different information (that or cherry-picking specific details and ignoring contradictory ones). That said, the Coode article was one of the better ones.
Post by J. Sardina
Reference: C 1/68/69
Short title: Derneford v Tremayn.
Plaintiffs: John Derneford and Johanne, his wife, daughter of Alice, daughter of Clarice, sister of John Daumarle, of Devon, knight.
Defendants: Nicholas Tremayn, feoffee to uses.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no68/IMG_0082.htm
taf
Great. This is exactly one of the documents in question. I will check.
I will try locating at least some of the various articles.
The line here seems to be slightly different from the line shown in the visitations, as edited by Vivian.

Thanks

J. Sardina
J. Sardina
2021-10-25 02:45:15 UTC
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The line here seems to be slightly different from the line shown in the visitations, as edited by Vivian.
This has been discussed here before, back in ancient times: Vivian is very much not a reliable source. The pages of D&CN&Q had article after article correcting his mistakes. I know one family that he has assigned the wrong mother to 6 successive generations of a family, and likewise missed the passage of the family property from a childless holder to his first cousin, then to that person's half-brother, instead making the last-named the son of the childless man. Every one of his pedigrees needs to be independently confirmed or corrected. Fortunately, some of the articles I mentioned did exactly that for different parts of the descent you are talking about.
taf
Thanks for the hint. I see in the index online, that at least four or five articles mention the families of interest.

I am thinking of researching more in the notes and queries just in case there happens to be something about the Coykins/Cokyns, Cokaynes of Devon and Cornwall.

There is a slight chance that by accident there might be something my Cuertons in to Devon or Cornwall, but possibly not through male lines, perhaps through the Cokayne if the Cuerton pedigree is not an invention or a mistake on that point.

but turning back to the pedigree of the family being discussed, it seems that Vivian found two Alices in succession when there might have been just only one.

J. Sardina
taf
2021-10-25 13:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Sardina
Secondly by their son – Sir John Daumarle and his wife Isabella. Thirdly –
as John and Isabella had no children – the manor passed to Clarice, Sir
John’s sister. She was married to Richard Grenville. There is some uncertainty
as to who succeeded them, as by rights it should have been Clarice’s daughter
Alice Carndon and thereafter to their daughter and her husband – Joan and
John Durford. Historical evidence suggests that these three women were
tricked out of their rightful inheritance by the machinations of the sons of
Isabella by her first marriage to John Tremayne.
I am not familiar with this particular case, and this could have been exactly what happened, but this could also simply represent a family's resentment over a perfectly legitimate course of events that nonetheless cut them out. There is a sloppy tendency among genealogists and earlier historians to assume inheritance was the only manner in which land could pass, and that if it passed another way it must have been some sort of violation of the 'rules' (or there must be some undetected genealogical link). Fines were relatively common, and these allowed the 'rightful' inheritance to be altered, legally. Had there been a fine representing a marriage settlement at the time John and Isabel wed, it could, for example, have settled the property on them and the heirs of their bodies, and in default of such issue to the heirs of John's body, then Isabel's body individually. In that case, the sons of Isabel would indeed have been the rightful inheritors, and it might have been Clarice who was the interloper. As such I would be a little careful in talking about being 'tricked out of their rightful inheritance' unless you know that is what truly happened.

taf
J. Sardina
2021-10-25 14:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Sardina
Secondly by their son – Sir John Daumarle and his wife Isabella. Thirdly –
as John and Isabella had no children – the manor passed to Clarice, Sir
John’s sister. She was married to Richard Grenville. There is some uncertainty
as to who succeeded them, as by rights it should have been Clarice’s daughter
Alice Carndon and thereafter to their daughter and her husband – Joan and
John Durford. Historical evidence suggests that these three women were
tricked out of their rightful inheritance by the machinations of the sons of
Isabella by her first marriage to John Tremayne.
I am not familiar with this particular case, and this could have been exactly what happened, but this could also simply represent a family's resentment over a perfectly legitimate course of events that nonetheless cut them out. There is a sloppy tendency among genealogists and earlier historians to assume inheritance was the only manner in which land could pass, and that if it passed another way it must have been some sort of violation of the 'rules' (or there must be some undetected genealogical link). Fines were relatively common, and these allowed the 'rightful' inheritance to be altered, legally. Had there been a fine representing a marriage settlement at the time John and Isabel wed, it could, for example, have settled the property on them and the heirs of their bodies, and in default of such issue to the heirs of John's body, then Isabel's body individually. In that case, the sons of Isabel would indeed have been the rightful inheritors, and it might have been Clarice who was the interloper. As such I would be a little careful in talking about being 'tricked out of their rightful inheritance' unless you know that is what truly happened.
taf
Thanks. The author of the comments at the website does not say if the interpretation was found in some document, but it may be that what happened was that Isabella's children inherited the manors in questions though they were John's step-children. Vivian's notes on the chart indicate that the Clarice's line had some claims and apparently had to be bought off by the family that ended up owning the properties. I haven't looked at the Tremaynes' tree to see if they were descendants of Isabella or her nephews. I am hoping that the articles in the notes and queries clarify at least the genealogical issues. But apart from those issues, if the later descendants shown in Vivian's tree were descendants of Alice, Clarice and Joanna, wouldn't they have inherited also the right to quarter the arms of each of those lines though they probably ended up with no properties?

J. Sardina

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