Discussion:
Who married Aubrey de Vere II (d. 1141)?
(too old to reply)
Greg Cooke
2021-08-13 22:16:49 UTC
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Has this been discussed before? If so, I could not find it. Given the potential change to CP, it seems like it should have been. However it is answered it seems it will be a correction either to Royal Ancestry or to CP, DD, Genealogics, and Ancestral Roots etc., ad infinitum.

In AR7 (1992) & AR8 (2004), line 246D (prepared by Douglas Richardson) #25, we find Adeliza (or Alice) de Clare [daughter of #24 Gilbert Fitz Richard and Adeliza de Clermont] married to Aubrey de Vere, sheriff of London & Middlesex, Justice and Master Chamberlain of England, slain in London 15 May 1141. This entry cites CP X:193-199 and App. J, 110-112.

CP 10:198n(f) seems to offer compelling contemporary evidence: “Adeliza, filia Gilberti de Clare, viri nobilis et eximii inter praecipuous regni principes,” citing William de Vere, in Leland 5:172. This William de Vere, Bishop of Hereford and son of Aubrey II and Alice was referring to his own mother. See also CP 10 App. J: 114-115.

Fast forward to 2013 and Royal Ancestry shows something much different, though not highlighted in its own list of changes, discoveries, etc. (1:xxv). It would seem Douglas has changed his mind, though not announcing it, here or elsewhere, that I can find.

The Vere line in RA starts with the MCS, Robert de Vere, 3rd Earl of Oxford who is a grandson of the couple in question (RA 5:250), so the question is not covered here.

At 2:174 (Clare 2.vi)/4:343 (Percy 3) Alice, daughter of Gilbert Fitz Richard and Adeliza de Clermont, formerly assigned as wife to Aubrey, as Alice de Tonbridge is married off to William de Percy citing in the main, Round, Feudal England (1895) 468-479. But a further citation is made to 10:440-445 (sub Percy). More specifically, at 10:441n(j) CP finds it more likely on chronological grounds that this Alice was daughter of Richard Fitz Gilbert rejecting what Round stated on 473: “She can only, therefore, in my opinion have been a daughter of Gilbert ‘de Tunbridge’; and with this conclusion the dates harmonize well.”

Traditionally, it seems it was Richard’s daughter Alice who married William de Percy (see AR8 161-24). However, at RA 2:175 (Clare 3.iii) we find Richard’s daughter Alice marrying (b. 1151) Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan (d. 1172). The citation includes a long quote from Eyton, Antiquities of Shropshire 10 (1860): 256-257, the original of which can be found here:

https://archive.org/details/antiquitiesshro16eytogoog

The passage concludes, “Cadwalader’s wife, Alice, was a Sister of Earl Gilbert and a daughter of Earl Richard de Clare, and, finally a niece of Ranulph, Earl of Chester.”

In various places in RA, sketches of Aubrey’s children or grandchildren refer to the couple with varying wording, with little consistency. There may be more, but the ones I found can be seen at:
• 1:361 (Bigod 6) refers to Juliane, wife of Hugh Bigod, 3rd Earl of Norfolk as: “daughter of Aubrey de Vere, of Great Addington and Drayton, Northamptonshire and Hedingham, Essex.” Her mother is not named.
• 2:218 (Clavering 2) refers to Alice, wife of Richard Fitz Richard as: “daughter of Aubrey de Vere, of Hedingham, Essex, Great Addington and Drayton, Northamptonshire, etc., by his wife Alice.”
• 4:558 (Say 3.i) refers to Rohese, wife of Godfrey de Mandeville (d. 1144) as “daughter of Aubrey de Vere, Chamberlain of England, by his wife Alice.”
• 5:284 (Wake 3.iii) refers to Robert, husband of Margaret Fitz Baldwin, as “son of Aubrey de Vere, Constable of King Henry I.” His mother is not named.

It seems to me there are not enough identified Alice’s to go around. What say the rest of you? Hopefully, we can have a civil discussion of the merits of both sides of the case. Please let’s not have any “consider the source” type of comments. I think we’ve read enough of those over the years.

Many thanks,

Greg
joseph cook
2021-08-13 22:56:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Cooke
Has this been discussed before? If so, I could not find it. Given the potential change to CP, it seems like it should have been. However it is answered it seems it will be a correction either to Royal Ancestry or to CP, DD, Genealogics, and Ancestral Roots etc., ad infinitum.
In AR7 (1992) & AR8 (2004), line 246D (prepared by Douglas Richardson) #25, we find Adeliza (or Alice) de Clare [daughter of #24 Gilbert Fitz Richard and Adeliza de Clermont] married to Aubrey de Vere, sheriff of London & Middlesex, Justice and Master Chamberlain of England, slain in London 15 May 1141. This entry cites CP X:193-199 and App. J, 110-112.
CP 10:198n(f) seems to offer compelling contemporary evidence: “Adeliza, filia Gilberti de Clare, viri nobilis et eximii inter praecipuous regni principes,” citing William de Vere, in Leland 5:172. This William de Vere, Bishop of Hereford and son of Aubrey II and Alice was referring to his own mother. See also CP 10 App. J: 114-115.
Fast forward to 2013 and Royal Ancestry shows something much different, though not highlighted in its own list of changes, discoveries, etc. (1:xxv). It would seem Douglas has changed his mind, though not announcing it, here or elsewhere, that I can find.
The Vere line in RA starts with the MCS, Robert de Vere, 3rd Earl of Oxford who is a grandson of the couple in question (RA 5:250), so the question is not covered here.
At 2:174 (Clare 2.vi)/4:343 (Percy 3) Alice, daughter of Gilbert Fitz Richard and Adeliza de Clermont, formerly assigned as wife to Aubrey, as Alice de Tonbridge is married off to William de Percy citing in the main, Round, Feudal England (1895) 468-479. But a further citation is made to 10:440-445 (sub Percy). More specifically, at 10:441n(j) CP finds it more likely on chronological grounds that this Alice was daughter of Richard Fitz Gilbert rejecting what Round stated on 473: “She can only, therefore, in my opinion have been a daughter of Gilbert ‘de Tunbridge’; and with this conclusion the dates harmonize well.”
https://archive.org/details/antiquitiesshro16eytogoog
The passage concludes, “Cadwalader’s wife, Alice, was a Sister of Earl Gilbert and a daughter of Earl Richard de Clare, and, finally a niece of Ranulph, Earl of Chester.”
• 1:361 (Bigod 6) refers to Juliane, wife of Hugh Bigod, 3rd Earl of Norfolk as: “daughter of Aubrey de Vere, of Great Addington and Drayton, Northamptonshire and Hedingham, Essex.” Her mother is not named.
• 2:218 (Clavering 2) refers to Alice, wife of Richard Fitz Richard as: “daughter of Aubrey de Vere, of Hedingham, Essex, Great Addington and Drayton, Northamptonshire, etc., by his wife Alice.”
• 4:558 (Say 3.i) refers to Rohese, wife of Godfrey de Mandeville (d. 1144) as “daughter of Aubrey de Vere, Chamberlain of England, by his wife Alice.”
• 5:284 (Wake 3.iii) refers to Robert, husband of Margaret Fitz Baldwin, as “son of Aubrey de Vere, Constable of King Henry I.” His mother is not named.
It seems to me there are not enough identified Alice’s to go around. What say the rest of you? Hopefully, we can have a civil discussion of the merits of both sides of the case. Please let’s not have any “consider the source” type of comments. I think we’ve read enough of those over the years.
As far as I can recall, backed up by some searching, this question was last asked 7 years ago here:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/DNf7dVBdO4o/m/vf1EpmFqfwEJ

There was not much engagement on the question at that time; very interested to see if anyone pops in with useful info here.
--Joe Cook
Peter Stewart
2021-08-13 23:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Cooke
Has this been discussed before? If so, I could not find it. Given the potential change to CP, it seems like it should have been. However it is answered it seems it will be a correction either to Royal Ancestry or to CP, DD, Genealogics, and Ancestral Roots etc., ad infinitum.
In AR7 (1992) & AR8 (2004), line 246D (prepared by Douglas Richardson) #25, we find Adeliza (or Alice) de Clare [daughter of #24 Gilbert Fitz Richard and Adeliza de Clermont] married to Aubrey de Vere, sheriff of London & Middlesex, Justice and Master Chamberlain of England, slain in London 15 May 1141. This entry cites CP X:193-199 and App. J, 110-112.
CP 10:198n(f) seems to offer compelling contemporary evidence: “Adeliza, filia Gilberti de Clare, viri nobilis et eximii inter praecipuous regni principes,” citing William de Vere, in Leland 5:172. This William de Vere, Bishop of Hereford and son of Aubrey II and Alice was referring to his own mother. See also CP 10 App. J: 114-115.
Fast forward to 2013 and Royal Ancestry shows something much different, though not highlighted in its own list of changes, discoveries, etc. (1:xxv). It would seem Douglas has changed his mind, though not announcing it, here or elsewhere, that I can find.
The Vere line in RA starts with the MCS, Robert de Vere, 3rd Earl of Oxford who is a grandson of the couple in question (RA 5:250), so the question is not covered here.
At 2:174 (Clare 2.vi)/4:343 (Percy 3) Alice, daughter of Gilbert Fitz Richard and Adeliza de Clermont, formerly assigned as wife to Aubrey, as Alice de Tonbridge is married off to William de Percy citing in the main, Round, Feudal England (1895) 468-479. But a further citation is made to 10:440-445 (sub Percy). More specifically, at 10:441n(j) CP finds it more likely on chronological grounds that this Alice was daughter of Richard Fitz Gilbert rejecting what Round stated on 473: “She can only, therefore, in my opinion have been a daughter of Gilbert ‘de Tunbridge’; and with this conclusion the dates harmonize well.”
https://archive.org/details/antiquitiesshro16eytogoog
The passage concludes, “Cadwalader’s wife, Alice, was a Sister of Earl Gilbert and a daughter of Earl Richard de Clare, and, finally a niece of Ranulph, Earl of Chester.”
• 1:361 (Bigod 6) refers to Juliane, wife of Hugh Bigod, 3rd Earl of Norfolk as: “daughter of Aubrey de Vere, of Great Addington and Drayton, Northamptonshire and Hedingham, Essex.” Her mother is not named.
• 2:218 (Clavering 2) refers to Alice, wife of Richard Fitz Richard as: “daughter of Aubrey de Vere, of Hedingham, Essex, Great Addington and Drayton, Northamptonshire, etc., by his wife Alice.”
• 4:558 (Say 3.i) refers to Rohese, wife of Godfrey de Mandeville (d. 1144) as “daughter of Aubrey de Vere, Chamberlain of England, by his wife Alice.”
• 5:284 (Wake 3.iii) refers to Robert, husband of Margaret Fitz Baldwin, as “son of Aubrey de Vere, Constable of King Henry I.” His mother is not named.
It seems to me there are not enough identified Alice’s to go around. What say the rest of you? Hopefully, we can have a civil discussion of the merits of both sides of the case. Please let’s not have any “consider the source” type of comments. I think we’ve read enough of those over the years.
I don't know why you would seek to protect Round, Eyton and CP from
adverse comments, but in any case when posting to this forum you don't
get to determine the tone or content of responses.

As for spreading around the available Alices, you might like to check
the note by Huw Pryce in *The Acts of Welsh Rulers, 1120-1283* (2005) p.
330: "Lloyd, following Eyton, identified Cadwaladr's wife as an
otherwise unknown daughter of Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare, the lord of
Ceredigion killed by the Welsh in 1136, and thus a niece of Ranulf;
Lloyd also pointed out that she could not be identified as Gilbert fitz
Richard's daughter Alice, who married Aubrey II de Vere of Hedingham,
Essex, as she entered a nunnery on her husband's death ... Another
possibility, however, is that Aliz is a corrupt reading for Adeliza
rather than Alicia, and that the lady was Richard's widow, and Ranulf's
sister, Adeliza. This receives some support from Welsh genealogical
collections, extant in manuscripts of the late fifteenth century
onwards, which name Adles ferch iarll Klaer (Adles daughter of the earl
of Clare) as the mother of four of Cadwaladr's sons, two of whom,
significantly, were named Rhicerd (i.e. Richard) and Randwlff (i.e.
Ranulf), the others bearing the Venedotian dynastic names of Cunedda and
Gruffudd ... The form Adles is more likely to derive from Adeliza than
from Alicia."

Peter Stewart

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