Discussion:
C.P. Addition: Death date of Clemence de Fougères, wife of Alain de Vitré (or Dinan), and Ranulph, Earl of Chester
(too old to reply)
c***@gmail.com
2019-07-08 17:12:27 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

In my post yesterday, I inadvertedly addressed an addition to Complete Peerage. The issue at hand was the death date of Clemence de Fougères, wife successively of Alain de Vitré (or Dinan) (died 1198), seigneur of Dinan, and Ranulph, Earl of Chester, Vicomte d'Avranches (died 1232).

As discussed in my earlier post in another thread, Paul Martin Remfry in his book "The Aberconwy Register and Aberconwy Abbey," states that Clemence de Fougères died 26 December 1252. However, being the poor historian that he is, he supplies no documentation for this information.

I thought perhaps Mr. Remfry lifted his date of death from Complete Peerage. In fact, Complete Peerage 3 (1913): 167-169 (sub Chester) has a long account of Ranulph, Earl of Chester, the second husband of Clemence de Fougères.

Here is what Complete Peerage says about Countess Clemence's date of death:

"His widow, who had dower in 1233, survived him 20 years, and died 1252." END OF QUOTE.

Once again, no documentation is provided for this information. Grrrr!

The following four records prove that Clemence, Countess of Chester, died testate shortly before 6 August 1252. As such, she was already cold and long in her grave before Mr. Remfry says she died on 26 December 1252.

(1) On 6 August 1252 the king gave mandate to the queen and Richard, Earl of Cornwall, "so soon as a partition has been made amongst the parceners of the lands late of Clemence, countess of Chester, of the lands which fall to Henry de Hastinges, who is in the king's ward ward, to cause to be assigned to William de Sancto Ermino, king’s knight, £40 yearly of land ..." [Reference: Calendar of the Patent Rolls, 1247–1258 (1908): 220].

(2) On 27 August 1252 the king ordered his escheator in Nottinghamshire to take into the king’s hand all lands formerly of Clemence, countess of Chester in his bailiwick and to keep them safely until the king orders otherwise [Reference: Henry III Fine Rolls Project, 36/1031 (available at www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_033.html)].

(3) On 29 August 1252 the king mandated that the Abbot of Pershore, the king's escheator, take sufficient security from the executors of the will of the late Clemence, Countess of Derby, for the payment of debts. [Reference: Cal. of Close Rolls 1251–1253 (1927): 151].

(4) On 27 Nov. 1252 the king appointed Baldwin de Paunton and Walter de Bereford to extend the manor of Repindon [Repton], Derbyshire, with all other lands which she held in dower of the inheritance of Randolf, Earl of Chester [Reference: Reference: Calendar of the Patent Rolls, 1247–1258 (1908): 224].

Clemence de Fougères, Countess of Chester, had no issue by her marriage to Ranulph, Earl of Chester. However, by her 1st marriage to Alain de Vitré (or Dinan), seigneur of Dinan (died 1198), she was the mother of Gervaise de Dinan (died sometime before June 1248), wife successively of Juhel II de Mayenne, seigneur of Mayenne and Dinan (died 2 or 4 May 1220), Geoffroi I, Vicomte of Rohan (died 25 Sept. 1221), and Richard Marshal, Knt., 6th Earl of Pembroke, hereditary Master Marshal.

I should mention that Gervaise de Dinan's last husband, Sir Richard Marshal, Earl of Pembroke, was the younger son of the famous Sir William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke (died 1219), from whom virtually all members of the newsgroup are descended. As such, Gervaise de Dinan is the aunt by marriage to most newsgroup members. In a similar vein, Gervaise's mother, Clemence de Fougères, is likewise the aunt by marriage to most newsgroup members by her marriage to Ranulph, Earl of Chester.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Peter Stewart
2019-07-08 23:02:32 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear Newsgroup ~
In my post yesterday, I inadvertedly addressed an addition to Complete Peerage. The issue at hand was the death date of Clemence de Fougères, wife successively of Alain de Vitré (or Dinan) (died 1198), seigneur of Dinan, and Ranulph, Earl of Chester, Vicomte d'Avranches (died 1232).
As discussed in my earlier post in another thread, Paul Martin Remfry in his book "The Aberconwy Register and Aberconwy Abbey," states that Clemence de Fougères died 26 December 1252. However, being the poor historian that he is, he supplies no documentation for this information.
I thought perhaps Mr. Remfry lifted his date of death from Complete Peerage. In fact, Complete Peerage 3 (1913): 167-169 (sub Chester) has a long account of Ranulph, Earl of Chester, the second husband of Clemence de Fougères.
"His widow, who had dower in 1233, survived him 20 years, and died 1252." END OF QUOTE.
Once again, no documentation is provided for this information. Grrrr!
The following four records prove that Clemence, Countess of Chester, died testate shortly before 6 August 1252. As such, she was already cold and long in her grave before Mr. Remfry says she died on 26 December 1252.
(1) On 6 August 1252 the king gave mandate to the queen and Richard, Earl of Cornwall, "so soon as a partition has been made amongst the parceners of the lands late of Clemence, countess of Chester, of the lands which fall to Henry de Hastinges, who is in the king's ward ward, to cause to be assigned to William de Sancto Ermino, king’s knight, £40 yearly of land ..." [Reference: Calendar of the Patent Rolls, 1247–1258 (1908): 220].
(2) On 27 August 1252 the king ordered his escheator in Nottinghamshire to take into the king’s hand all lands formerly of Clemence, countess of Chester in his bailiwick and to keep them safely until the king orders otherwise [Reference: Henry III Fine Rolls Project, 36/1031 (available at www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_033.html)].
(3) On 29 August 1252 the king mandated that the Abbot of Pershore, the king's escheator, take sufficient security from the executors of the will of the late Clemence, Countess of Derby, for the payment of debts. [Reference: Cal. of Close Rolls 1251–1253 (1927): 151].
The level of pig-headed obtuseness and disregard for evidence shown in
this post is surprising even to me.

You were advised yesterday that the first record, dated 6 August, is
from 1253 not 1252.

If the statement of this fact on the page you took it from is not clear
and bright enough to penetrate the fog in your skull, then the context -
if you bothered to read your quotation - might give you a hint.

How could Clementia's lands be already in the hands of her heirs on 6
August if the king was still rattling on about her executors three weeks
later?

The text of the last record above contains an instruction to the abbot
of Pershore to place Clementia's goods and chattels at the disposal of
her executors so that they can carry out their duty ("executoribus
testamenti ipsius Clemencie plenam administracionem habere faciat de
omnibus bonis et catallis que fuerunt predicte Clemencie in ballia sua,
ad execucionem testamenti sui inde faciendam"). This was on 29 August
1252, and by 6 August 1253 the heirs were in possession.

Hence there is no documented evidence that she had died by 6 August
1252, but only records from 27 and 29 August 1252 showing that she was
dead by that time.

Of course if you insist on making as big a fool of yourself in print
over this as you have online, go right ahead.

Peter Stewart
c***@gmail.com
2019-07-08 23:53:47 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
You were advised yesterday that the first record, dated 6 August, is
from 1253 not 1252.
Peter Stewart
The date of the first record is 1252, not 1253, as you say. Thanks for the correction.

DR
Peter Stewart
2019-07-08 23:58:29 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Stewart
You were advised yesterday that the first record, dated 6 August, is
from 1253 not 1252.
Peter Stewart
The date of the first record is 1252, not 1253, as you say. Thanks for the correction.
Still, still far wide - maybe not yet quite as mad as King Lear but your
typing fingers are busily getting there.

The date of the first record is 1253, not 1252.

Peter Stewart
c***@gmail.com
2019-07-09 00:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Stewart
You were advised yesterday that the first record, dated 6 August, is
from 1253 not 1252.
Peter Stewart
The date of the first record is 1252, not 1253, as you say. Thanks for the correction.
Still, still far wide - maybe not yet quite as mad as King Lear but your
typing fingers are busily getting there.
The date of the first record is 1253, not 1252.
Peter Stewart
Yes, of course. DR
Peter Stewart
2019-07-09 05:14:37 UTC
Permalink
As Douglas Richardson has shown, Clemence died before 27 August 1252.

One of her heirs was Ralph de Somery, who was a minor at that time and
himself dead shortly before 26 January 1271 when his four sisters and
their husbands entered a petition claiming to be his heirs.

Out of idle interest, since some errors in Medieval Lands came to notice
yesterday in another thread, I looked to see what Charles Cawley had to
say about this, here:
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3P-S.htm#_Toc389068648.

Predictably he has managed to go wrong, placing Ralph's death
(unverified according to his own square brackets usage) "before 1253".

Elsewhere he has actually quoted from the source (Calendar of
Inquisitions post mortem: Henry III, p.258 no. 779) indicating that
Ralph was lately deceased in January 1271, in his notice for Clemence
herself here:
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL.htm.

It seems that even when he looks directly at good and relevant
information Cawley is incapable of making proper use of his luck.

Peter Stewart

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