Discussion:
OT (somewhat): Parentage/Ancestry of Mrs. Tacy (Cooper) Hubbard, 1608/09-1697
(too old to reply)
j***@albion.edu
2015-07-15 00:33:15 UTC
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Am trying to ascertain if there is any new evidence regarding this New World immigrant, particularly as concerns her claimed grandparents Edmund Cooper and Mary Wynne of Henlow, Bedfordshire -- making her a first cousin to Mayflower passenger Henry Samson, and descendant of several ancient (but non-royal) families of medieval England. Tacy (also spelled Tasy) was the wife of immigrant Samuel Hubbard, one of the founders of the Seventh-Day Baptist Church in Newport, Rhode Island. Samuel was born in Mendlesham, Suffolk, resulting in the claim that Tacy was baptized 12 Feb 1608/09 in Mendlesham, the daughter of one Thomas Cooper. (Her mother has been variously claimed to be named Mary Raynor or Sarah Slye or Mary Slye.) I find it highly suspect that father Thomas Cooper has been identified with Thomas Cowper or Cooper, baptized 20 May 1583 in Henlow, Bedfordshire, the child of Edmund and Mary (Wynne) Cooper. Can someone tell me if any of this data has been conclusively proven/disproven? Thanks,
Jim+
Vance Mead
2015-07-15 09:38:07 UTC
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I can't tell you definitely if Thomas Cooper/Cowper is the son of Edmund, but I can provide a bit more information about them.

You should search the Suffolk RO catalogue:

http://www.suffolkheritagedirect.org.uk/advanced-search.aspx

There's a Thomas Cooper or Cowper of Mendlesham, turner, in the early 17th century:

1618. Anne Cooper, daughter of Thomas Cooper, placed apprentice by churchwardens and overseers to Miles Keble of Mendlesham, yeoman
1625. Margaret Cowper, daughter of William Cowper of Mendlesham, placed apprentice to Thomas Cowper of Mendlesham, turner, by churchwardens and overseers

And the Bedford catalogue:

http://bedsarchivescat.bedford.gov.uk/search/advanced

There's a will of Michael Cowper of Henlow, 1539/40
http://bedsarchivescat.bedford.gov.uk/Details/archive/110106056

He had several children, including Edmund, but it looks like Edmund was an adult, so too old to have a child in 1583.

Also one item in Common Pleas, Michael Cowper of Arlesey, Beds, probably the son of Michael Cowper of Henlow. The two are about a mile apart.

Hilary term 1543. f 424, first entry
The first defendant is Michael Cowper, of Arlesey, Beds, yeoman.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/H8/CP40no1116/aCP40no1116fronts/IMG_0424.htm
Vance Mead
2015-07-15 09:41:56 UTC
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Also one question:

Is Tacy a nickname for Leticia? Because Edmund Cowper in Henlow had a sister named "Lettes", which would be the same name.
p***@gmail.com
2018-05-14 22:20:24 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
Is Tacy a nickname for Leticia? Because Edmund Cowper in Henlow had a sister named "Lettes", which would be the same name.
Tace was a popular Puritan name.
Vance Mead
2015-07-15 13:31:05 UTC
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This is the information from the will of Michael Cowper, of Henlow, Beds, yeoman, Prerogative Court of Canterbury, 1556
John Cowper, eldest son, land "bought of my brother William Cowper in Arlessey".
Edmund my son, a house in Henlow
Elizabeth my wife. She is to have the land and goods given to Edmund for six years (probably meaning he is 15 years old)
Olyver my son
George my son
Richard my son
Agnes my daughter
Judith my daughter
Executors Elizabeth my wife and my brother in law William Papworth
a***@mindspring.com
2015-07-15 18:37:12 UTC
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See TAG 52: 206. TG 6: 166-186. Harvey et al., Vis. of Bedfordshire 1566, 1582, 1634 & 1669 (H.S.P. 19) (1884): 44-45.

For further leads.


Doug
j***@albion.edu
2015-07-15 21:02:00 UTC
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Vance, very much appreciate the details. Yes, the Michael Cowper/Cooper who had his will in 1556 is the father of the Edmund Cooper of Henlow, who is the man I mentioned. Edmund's daughter Martha married James Sam(p)son, and was the mother of Mayflower passenger Henry Sam(p)son; Edmund's daughter Ann/Agnes was married to William Tilley, and they both emigrated on the Mayflower as well (they were the ones who took Henry with them). Through Michael Cooper's wife Elizabeth, nee Page, this family has medieval ancestry, though no (proven) royalty yet (the most likely avenue is through the Greene line) -- the beginning of this ancestry can be seen in the Visitation of Bedfordshire, which Doug kindly referenced, which shows Elizabeth Page of Arlesey married to Michael "Coper" of Arlesey, yeoman, and "after to Jasper Smithe of Arlesey aforesayd yeoman."

Doug, thanks for the TAG and TG references also, I will have to order the articles to re-read when I am able; but as far as I recall, Ward dealt specifically with the direct ancestry of Henry Sampson and the Coopers. I wondered if any new evidence had come to light since 1985. Specifically, I can't recall much detail given to Martha and Ann/Agnes' brother Thomas Cooper, whom some have claimed to be the father of Tacy (Cooper) Hubbard. Also, I have noticed some online skepticism recently about the Sampson/Cooper ancestry -- in particular, Jamie Allen's "fabpedigree" page (which, admittedly, is not necessarily scholarly or to be taken at face value, but which does try to at least note where a line has problems). Allen writes only a "possibly" for the three generations of Coopers before Henry Sampson, then a "probably not" for Elizabeth (Page) Cooper's parents, Robert Page and Cecily Greene. As far as I knew, this line was unchallenged since Ward's work.....?

One more thing, Vance, the name is never given as anything else but "Tacy," or its variant "Tasy." I don't know of anyone who has connected it to a more traditional name, and it recurs in her descendants just that way. The unusual naming might be an avenue for tracing her origins, but I haven't found any "Tacy" records in
England yet. Someone apparently found a baptismal record in 1608/09, but I have not seen it.
Jim+
a***@mindspring.com
2015-07-16 14:55:11 UTC
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The Thomas Cooper who married Sarah Slye and died in Springfield in 1675 is covered in Robert Charles Anderson, The Great Migration 1634-1635, Boston, 2009, Vol. II, pps 205-212. He was having children in the 1640's and 1650's and appears to be of about the same generation as Tacy, although i suppose he could have been older and had a wife before Sarah Slye.

Doug Smith
a***@mindspring.com
2015-07-16 15:08:07 UTC
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The Thomas Cooper who married Mary Raynor is covered in Robert Charles Anderson, The Great Migration 1634-1635, Boston, 2009, Vol. II, pps 202-204. Anderson, George F. Sanborn Jr., Melinde Lutz Sanborn, The Great Migration 1634-1635, Boston, 2009, Vol. VI, pps 14-19. He was born in 1626/7 and could not have been the father of Tacy.

Doug Smith
j***@albion.edu
2015-07-16 16:02:00 UTC
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This is one of the many reasons I am skeptical of Tacy's parentage. I knew that Thomas Cooper/Sarah Slye had been shoehorned into several trees inappropriately (and unbelievably), and suspected the same of Thomas Cooper/Mary Raynor. I am tempted to write off all claims of Tacy's origin entirely, but for the specificity of the baptism date (sometimes called a birth date) of 12 Feb 1608/09 in Mendlesham. I can find no one able to give me a solid source for this datum, so perhaps it really must be relegated to some sloppy genealogist's fantasy.
p***@gmail.com
2017-05-05 05:09:53 UTC
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Post by j***@albion.edu
This is one of the many reasons I am skeptical of Tacy's parentage. I knew that Thomas Cooper/Sarah Slye had been shoehorned into several trees inappropriately (and unbelievably), and suspected the same of Thomas Cooper/Mary Raynor. I am tempted to write off all claims of Tacy's origin entirely, but for the specificity of the baptism date (sometimes called a birth date) of 12 Feb 1608/09 in Mendlesham. I can find no one able to give me a solid source for this datum, so perhaps it really must be relegated to some sloppy genealogist's fantasy.
I, too, am looking for Tacy's lineage. I am a direct maternal descendant from Tacy's daughter Bethiah, to her daughter to her daughter, down to my mother. Therefore, her mtDNA would match my group, J2a2e. So far only 3 people have been found with this DNA which orginates in the Middle East and my particular version had a variation about 2,000 years ago setting us apart. The SDB church (which, to correct comments on this page, Tacy was more founder than her husband as she would not let him accept Puritan customs like infant baptism and is documented as ADAMANT about it, Hubbard caved 6 months later) this church had a very unusual story about their origins. Working with a well known geneticist, he posits that this DNA was brought by Roman auxiliary soldiers recruited to guard the Welsh frontier, from Syria (and their wives). Wales is where many of my other family members originate from and are well documented, also Scots borders. Tacy is the big mystery. We are looking for other female descendants with the same exact DNA group, women who are cousins to me who would be interested in a discussion group/ DNA comparison group. The geneticist doubts Tacy was from Mendlesham, as others with her DNA would have shown up there. Please contact me if you have further information, or would like to discuss: ***@gmail.com.
p***@gmail.com
2018-05-14 22:22:27 UTC
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Post by j***@albion.edu
This is one of the many reasons I am skeptical of Tacy's parentage. I knew that Thomas Cooper/Sarah Slye had been shoehorned into several trees inappropriately (and unbelievably), and suspected the same of Thomas Cooper/Mary Raynor. I am tempted to write off all claims of Tacy's origin entirely, but for the specificity of the baptism date (sometimes called a birth date) of 12 Feb 1608/09 in Mendlesham. I can find no one able to give me a solid source for this datum, so perhaps it really must be relegated to some sloppy genealogist's fantasy.
Thanks for you reply..........
p***@gmail.com
2018-05-14 22:39:59 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by j***@albion.edu
This is one of the many reasons I am skeptical of Tacy's parentage. I knew that Thomas Cooper/Sarah Slye had been shoehorned into several trees inappropriately (and unbelievably), and suspected the same of Thomas Cooper/Mary Raynor. I am tempted to write off all claims of Tacy's origin entirely, but for the specificity of the baptism date (sometimes called a birth date) of 12 Feb 1608/09 in Mendlesham. I can find no one able to give me a solid source for this datum, so perhaps it really must be relegated to some sloppy genealogist's fantasy.
Thanks for you reply..........
Forgot to mention Mendlesham had a Quaker meeting house........someone lives there now
p***@gmail.com
2018-05-14 23:02:05 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by j***@albion.edu
This is one of the many reasons I am skeptical of Tacy's parentage. I knew that Thomas Cooper/Sarah Slye had been shoehorned into several trees inappropriately (and unbelievably), and suspected the same of Thomas Cooper/Mary Raynor. I am tempted to write off all claims of Tacy's origin entirely, but for the specificity of the baptism date (sometimes called a birth date) of 12 Feb 1608/09 in Mendlesham. I can find no one able to give me a solid source for this datum, so perhaps it really must be relegated to some sloppy genealogist's fantasy.
Thanks for you reply..........
Forgot to mention Mendlesham had a Quaker meeting house........someone lives there now
Because I am supposedly eligible as a Quaker by birth, I am going to try to access the records that are not public.
p***@gmail.com
2018-05-14 22:25:23 UTC
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Post by a***@mindspring.com
The Thomas Cooper who married Sarah Slye and died in Springfield in 1675 is covered in Robert Charles Anderson, The Great Migration 1634-1635, Boston, 2009, Vol. II, pps 205-212. He was having children in the 1640's and 1650's and appears to be of about the same generation as Tacy, although i suppose he could have been older and had a wife before Sarah Slye.
Doug Smith
Thanks for your reply!.....
p***@gmail.com
2018-05-14 22:36:41 UTC
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Post by j***@albion.edu
Vance, very much appreciate the details. Yes, the Michael Cowper/Cooper who had his will in 1556 is the father of the Edmund Cooper of Henlow, who is the man I mentioned. Edmund's daughter Martha married James Sam(p)son, and was the mother of Mayflower passenger Henry Sam(p)son; Edmund's daughter Ann/Agnes was married to William Tilley, and they both emigrated on the Mayflower as well (they were the ones who took Henry with them). Through Michael Cooper's wife Elizabeth, nee Page, this family has medieval ancestry, though no (proven) royalty yet (the most likely avenue is through the Greene line) -- the beginning of this ancestry can be seen in the Visitation of Bedfordshire, which Doug kindly referenced, which shows Elizabeth Page of Arlesey married to Michael "Coper" of Arlesey, yeoman, and "after to Jasper Smithe of Arlesey aforesayd yeoman."
Doug, thanks for the TAG and TG references also, I will have to order the articles to re-read when I am able; but as far as I recall, Ward dealt specifically with the direct ancestry of Henry Sampson and the Coopers. I wondered if any new evidence had come to light since 1985. Specifically, I can't recall much detail given to Martha and Ann/Agnes' brother Thomas Cooper, whom some have claimed to be the father of Tacy (Cooper) Hubbard. Also, I have noticed some online skepticism recently about the Sampson/Cooper ancestry -- in particular, Jamie Allen's "fabpedigree" page (which, admittedly, is not necessarily scholarly or to be taken at face value, but which does try to at least note where a line has problems). Allen writes only a "possibly" for the three generations of Coopers before Henry Sampson, then a "probably not" for Elizabeth (Page) Cooper's parents, Robert Page and Cecily Greene. As far as I knew, this line was unchallenged since Ward's work.....?
One more thing, Vance, the name is never given as anything else but "Tacy," or its variant "Tasy." I don't know of anyone who has connected it to a more traditional name, and it recurs in her descendants just that way. The unusual naming might be an avenue for tracing her origins, but I haven't found any "Tacy" records in
England yet. Someone apparently found a baptismal record in 1608/09, but I have not seen it.
Jim+
Thanks again Jim. There is some piece of this puzzle missing. I am also direct descendant of John Warren (of Watertown/Marlboro) whose daughter married John Bigelow. John Warren was accused of harboring Quakers many times and was fined many times for not attending church. There seems to be a strong indication he was a Quaker himself. He and John Hammond were accused together and had their houses searched by the Boston authorities. Besides Sabbatarians there are quite a few Quaker ancestor in my tree, and my lineage is very endogamous. My ancestors seem to come with strong connections back in England, not at all random and they continue their lineages and intermarriages in a surprisingly small circle until my mother.
p***@gmail.com
2018-05-14 22:35:13 UTC
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Post by a***@mindspring.com
See TAG 52: 206. TG 6: 166-186. Harvey et al., Vis. of Bedfordshire 1566, 1582, 1634 & 1669 (H.S.P. 19) (1884): 44-45.
For further leads.
Doug
Thanks again Doug. There is some piece of this puzzle missing. I am also direct descendant of John Warren (of Watertown/Marlboro) whose daughter married John Bigelow. John Warren was accused of harboring Quakers many times and was fined many times for not attending church. There seems to be a strong indication he was a Quaker himself. He and John Hammond were accused together and had their houses searched by the Boston authorities. Besides Sabbatarians there are quite a few Quaker ancestor in my tree, and my lineage is very endogamous. My ancestors seem to come with strong connections back in England, not at all random and they continue their lineages and intermarriages in a surprisingly small circle until my mother.
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