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C.P. Addition: Ela Lovel, wife of John le Marshal, 2nd Lord Marshal, and Robert Fitz Payn, Knt., 2nd Lord Fitz Payn
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c***@gmail.com
2019-10-02 22:48:13 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage 5 (1926): 448–453 (sub Fitzpayn) and 8 (1932): 529 (sub Marshal) include accounts of Ela (died 1356), wife successively of John le Marshal (died 1316), 2nd Lord Marshal, hereditary Marshal of Ireland, and Robert Fitz Payn, Knt. (died 1354), 2nd Lord Fitz Payn. Neither account provides the maiden name or parentage of this woman.

Complete Peerage 8 (1932): 529 (sub Marshal) says the following regarding Ela's 1st marriage to John le Marshal:

John Marshal, Lord Marshal ... He married before 6 Dec. 1311, Ela, whose parentage is not known. He died s.p. 12 August 1316. His widow married 2ndly, Robert Fitz-Payn [Lord FitzPayn], and died 16 Feb. 1355/6." END OF QUOTE.

Complete Peerage 5 (1926): 451 (sub Fitzpayn) states the following regarding Ela's 2nd marriage:

"Robert [FitzPayn], Lord FitzPayn ... The name of his 1st wife is unknown. He married, 2ndly (royal licence dated 29 June 1219), Ela, widow of John le Mareschal, of Hingham, Hockering, and Buxton, Norfolk, and Aslackby, co. Lincoln, hereditary Marshal of Ireland ... He died 30 Nov. 1354. She died 16 Feb. 1355/6." END OF QUOTE.

In most instances, the parentage of the wife of two prominent men of baronial rank can easily be discovered in contemporary records. However, having surveyed many records in the past, the parentage of Ela has remained unknown to me.

Recently, however, I unexpectedly encountered a record which proves that Ela was the sister of one Hugh Lovel. The record is found in the published Coroners Rolls of London. It concerns the murder of one John de Forde in London in 1342. A partial abstract of the published account is given below.

Reference: Sharpe, Calendar of Coroners Rolls, City of London, A.D. 1300–1378 (1913): 185–187.

Date: 1 May 1342. “Information given to the aforesaid Coroner and Sheriffs that John de Forde, a chaplain, lay dead of a death other than his rightful death in the High Street opposite the church of St. Michael ‘atte Corne’ in the same parish, in the Ward of Farndone Within. The jurors ... say that a quarrel having broken out some time since between Ela, wife of Sir Robert Filz Payn, and the aforesaid John, the said Ela persuaded Hugh Lovel, her brother, Hugh de Colne, John le Stronge, late her servants, and two others to kill him; that accordingly on the preceding Friday after the hour of Vespers, they waylaid him in Shepe [sic] opposite Bredestrete, ... and that thereupon the said Hugh Lovel struck the said John de Forde secretly with a knife called ‘anelaz’ on the throat, while Hugh de Colne and John le Strong struck him with their knives called ‘Long-knives’ on the belly inflicting mortal wounds of which he died.” END OF QUOTE.

As we see above, Hugh Lovel is styled the brother of Ela, wife of Sir Robert Fitz Payn. Question is: Who is Hugh Lovel?

I considered the possibilty that Ela Lovel and her brother, Hugh, might be children of Sir Richard Lovel, of Castle Cary, Somerset, whose father's name was Hugh and who had Ela's 2nd husband, Robert Fitz Payn, as one of his tenants. Reviewing the records of the Lovel family of Castle Cary, it appears that Sir Richard Lovel and his wife, Muriel de Soules, were married in or before 1305, and Ela Lovel married her 1st husband John le Marshal in or about 1311. While it is still possible that Ela was a member of the Lovel family of Castle Cary, it would seem that Sir Richard Lovel and Ela Lovel were contemporaries to one another and could only be siblings, not father and daughter.

While I was mulling over the possibility of Ela Lovel's connection to the Lovel family of Castle Cary, I unexpectedly encountered another record which sent me in an entirely different direction. As I was going through Common Pleas lawsuits for the year 1340 this past month, I encountered a reference to Ela Lovel's first husband, John le Marshal, who died many years previously. The lawsuit concerns a presentation made by John le Marshal in 1316 (the year of his death) to the church of Aslackby, Lincolnshire, which manor was one of his land holdings. The plaintiff was suing William Lovel and Walter de Pavely, knights. Below is a brief abstract of the lawsuit:

In Michaelmas term 1340 Hugh de Hakeford, clerk, arraigned an assize of novel disseisin against William Lovel, Knt., and Walter de Pavely, Knt., in the Court of Common Pleas to determine if John le Mareschal presented the said Hugh to the church of Aslackby, Lincolnshire 26 July 1316, together with an annual rent of 100s. in Hingham, Norfolk.

Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/324, image 73f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no324/aCP40no324fronts/IMG_0073.htm).

Sir William Lovel appears to be the man of that name of Irchester, Northamptonshire. Sir Walter de Pavely was a famous Knight of the Garter.
Lovel, Pavely, and John le Marshal all held lands in Northamptonshire. I presently have no idea how or why either Sir William Lovel or Sir Walter de Pavely would be involved in the affairs of John le Marshal. However, it is entirely possible that Sir William Lovel was the brother of John le Marshal's wife, Ela Lovel.

For now, further research needs to be done to determine which Lovel family to which Ela Lovel belonged.

One last matter. It is known that Ela Lovel's 2nd husband, Sir Robert Fitz Payn, was married previously to an unknown 1st wife, by which marriage he had a son and heir apparent, Robert Fitz Payn, who died in his father's lifetime c.1322. Besides the one son, Sir Robert Fitz Payn also had one daughter, Isabel, wife of Sir John Chideock, who is named in his inquisition post mortem. Complete Peerage left it uncertain which of Sir Robert Fitz Payn's wives was the mother of Isabel. Given that Isabel was stated to be aged 30 at her father's death in 1354, it has been commonly assumed by me and others that Isabel was the child of Sir Robert Fitz Payn's 2nd wife, Ela Lovel.

However, there is an inquisition post mortem taken following Ela Lovel's death in 1356. It has been published in Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, 10 (1921): 245-259. The jurors in two counties said the following about Ela's heir:

Somerset: "The said Ela died on Tuesday before St. Peter in Cathedra last, but who is her heir the jury know not, because she has none begotten of her or otherwise known in the county. She had no other lands &c. in the county." END OF QUOTE.

Dorset: She died on Tuesday before St. Peter in Cathedra last, but who is her heir the jury know not, because she had none begotten of herself or in any way known in the county. She had no other lands, &c. in the county." END OF QUOTE

Both juries state that Ela Lovel had "none begotten of her." This means that Ela Lovel can not have been the mother of Sir Robert Fitz Payn's daughter, Isabel. Both juries state quite plainly that Ela died childless.

Both juries also state that they did not know Ela's heir. Having seen many inquisitions from this time period, this latter statement surely means that Ela came from outside Somerset and Dorset, otherwise the juries would surely have known her next heir. As such, I would take this to be concrete evidence that Ela Lovel was not a member of the Lovel family of Castle Cary, Somerset. Rather her family would necessarily be found some distance from Somerset and Dorset. Northamptonshire would work.

In closing, I should mention that I whisked by the Wikitree account of this family as I was preparing this post. Among other glaring errors, I see Wikitree claims that Ela Lovel was the daughter of Sir Guy de Bryan, died 1307. This is obviously an error. Whoever prepared this account has apparently confused Ela Lovel with her husband's nephew, also named Robert Fitz Payn, who married Elizabeth, a known daughter of Sir Guy de Bryan, Lord Bryan, who died in 1390.

Wikitree also claims that Ela Lovel was the mother of her husband's daughter, Isabel Fitz Payn, wife of Sir John Chideock. We've seen contemporary evidence above that this claim is totally baseless. Isabel was clearly Ela Lovel's step-daughter.

Lastly Ela Lovel's husband, Sir Robert Fitz Payn, is assigned another daughter by his 1st marriage, namely Alice (or Azilia), wife of Robert de Glastonia. This daughter is total fiction, as is the claim that Alice (or Aziia) is the ancestress of the New World immigrant, Thomas Newberry. The fradulent Newberry ancestry was debunked here on the newsgroup several years ago. He is not a descendant of Alice (or Azilia) [if she even existed] or the Fitz Payn family. Keeping the myth of fabulous Newberry ancestry alive long after it has been shown to be a fraud is why I do not trust Wikitree for much of anything.

I see Andrew Lancaster from the newsgroup is one of the contributors to the Fitz Payn wikitree account. Hopefully Andrew can arrange for various corrections to be made so that an honest appraisal of the Fitz Payn family can be reflected on Wikitree. My comments here should not be construed as a personal attack on Andrew Lancaster. I like and respect Andrew. Presumably Andrew made a previous correction to a seriously flawed wikitree account and was simply credited for the correction. If that is the case, Andrew is to be commended.

For interest's sake, I've copied below my current file account of Ela Lovel and her two husbands. All of my sources are included.

Ela Lovel has no modern descendants. However, there are New World immigrants that descend from John le Marshal's sister and also from Robert Fitz Payn's sister.

Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist

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JOHN LE MARSHAL, 2nd Lord Marshal, hereditary Marshal of Ireland, of Hingham, Aldeby, Buxton, Foulsham, and Hockering, Norfolk, Aslackby, Lincolnshire, Greens Norton, Northamptonshire, etc., son and heir, born 1 August 1292. He married before 6 Dec. 1311 (date of license to grant lands) ELA LOVEL, sister of Hugh Lovel. He is probably the John Marshal who was setting out for Scotland on the king’s business in April 1314, in the retinue of Queen Isabel. He was summoned for military service against the Scots in Feb. 1315/16, subsequently the muster was postponed to 10 August, only 2 days before his death. He presented to the churches of Aslackby, Lincolnshire, 1316, and Hingham, Norfolk, 1316. JOHN MARSHAL died 12 August 1316. His widow, Ela, married (2nd) by royal license dated 29 June 1319 (as his 2nd wife) ROBERT FITZ PAYN, Knt., 2nd Lord Fitz Payn, of Marshwood, Chelborough, Okeford Fitzpaine, Wootton Fitzpaine, and Wraxall, Dorset, Allowenshay (in Kingstone), Cary Fitzpaine (in Charlton Mackrell), Charlton Mackrell, Cheddon Fitzpaine, Radway Fitzpaine (in Cannington), Staple Fitzpaine, Stogursey, and Tatworth (in Chard), Somerset, etc., son and heir of Robert Fitz Payn, 1st Lord Fitz Payn, of Allowenshay (in Kingstone), Somerset, Steward of the King’s Household, Keeper of the Forest south of Trent, by Isabel, daughter of John de Clifford, Knt. He was born about 1285–87 (aged 28 or 30 in 1315). He married previously an unknown 1st wife, by whom he had one son, Robert, Knt.(died before 10 Dec. 1322), and one daughter, Isabel (wife of John Chideock, Knt.). He presented to the churches of Greens Norton, Northamptonshire, 1323, 1330, 1345, 1348, 1350, Cheddon Fitzpaine, Somerset, 1328, Pitney, Somerset, 1339, Kingstone (near Ilminster), Somerset, 1342, 1343, 1349, 1353, Keinton Mandeville, Somerset, 1345, 1346, and Skilgate, Somerset, 1349, 1350. In 1323 Jordan de Byntre, chaplain, granted Robert and Ela his wife and the heirs of Robert the manors of Cary Fitzpaine (in Charlton Mackrell), Charlton Mackrell, Radway Fitzpaine (in Cannington), and Stogursey, together with the Hundred of Cannington, Somerset. In 1324 Jordan de Byntre, parson of Wraxall, Dorset, and another, granted Robert and Ela his wife the manors of Bridgehampton (in Yeovilton), Speckington (in Yeovilton), and Cheddon, Somerset for the term of their lives, with successive remainders to Robert son of Richard de Grey, of Codnor, and his wife; Gilbert his brother and his heirs; and thence to the right heirs of Robert Fitz Payn. In 1324 Jordan de Byntre, parson of Wraxall, Dorset, and another granted Robert and Ela his wife and their heirs male the manors of Stogursey, Radway Fitzpaine (in Cannington), Cary Fitzpaine (in Charleton Mackrell), Charleton Mackrell, and Staple Fitzpaine, and the hundred of Cannington, Somerset; with successive remainders to Robert son of Richard de Grey, of Codnor, and his wife, Gilbert his brother and his heirs; and then to the right heirs of Robert Fitz Payn. He was summoned to Parliament from 3 Dec. 1326 to 15 Nov. 1351, by writs directed Roberto filio Pagani, fuitz Payn, or fitz Payn. In 1327 Sibyl, widow of Alan de Plokenet, sued Robert and Ela his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding dower in the manor and advowson of the church of Puddington, Devon. In 1327 and 1328 Jordan de Byntre, chaplain, sued Robert le fitz Payn and Ela his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manors and advowsons of Wootton Fitzpaine, Frome Whitfield, and Marshwood, Dorset, and Worth, Devon. In 1327 and 1328 the executors of Raymund Herynd sued him in the Court of Common Pleas in a Dorset plea regarding a debt. In 1327, 1328, and 1330 Thomas de Weston sued Robert and Ela his wife in the Court of Common Pleas in a Norfolk plea regarding a debt of £9. In 1328 Jordan de Byntre, chaplain, grantor in a fine, and Robert Fitz Payn and Ela his wife, grantees, sued Maud, widow of Robert Fitz Payn le fitz, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Worth, Devon. The same year Robert Fitz Payn conveyed the manor and advowson of Pole, Wiltshire to John Mautravers the younger, which Maud, widow of Robert Fitz Payn le Fitz held in dower. The same year Richard son of John de Clifford sued Robert son of Robert Fitz Payn and Ela his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding land and rent in Frampton on Severn, Gloucestershire. In 1328 William son of John Qwarel, of Whittlebury, Norfolk, sued Walter Dawe, of Whittlebury, and others regarding land in Norton by Towcester, Northamptonshire; appeal from the court of Robert Fitz Payn and Ela his wife of Norton by Towcester. In 1329 Jordan de Byntre, parson of Wraxall, Dorset, granted Robert and Ela his wife and their heirs the manors of Kingston (in Yeovil) and Sevenhampton, Somerset, with remainder in default of issue to the right heirs of Ela. The same year Walter de Thornhull and Margery his wife acknowledged the right of Ela as to the manor of Downhead, Somerset to hold to Robert and Ela and the heirs of Ela. He and Ela his wife presented to the church of Charlton Mackrell, Somerset in 1330. In 1331 Ela his wife was convicted of adultery. In 1332 Jordan de Byntre, chaplain, whom Robert le Fitz Payn and Ela his wife called to warrant, sued Robert le Fitz Payn in the Court of Common Pleas that he warrant him the third part of the manor of Kingston (in Yeovil), Somerset, which Denise, widow of John de Wygeton, claimed as her dower. In 1324 Jordan de Byntre, parson of Wroxshal, and another, granted Robert and Ela his wife the manors of Brighampton, Speckington, and Cedene, Somerset for the term of their lives, with successive remainders to Robert son of Richard de Grey, of Codnor, and his wife; Gilbert his brother and his heirs; and thence to the right heirs of Robert Fitz Payn. In Michaelmas term 1340 Hugh de Hakeford, clerk, arraigned an assize of novel disseisin against William Lovel, Knt., and Walter de Pavely, Knt., in the Court of Common Pleas to determine if John le Mareschal presented the said Hugh to the church of Aslackby, Lincolnshire 26 July 1316, together with an annual rent of 100s. in Hingham, Norfolk. In 1340 Robert and Ela his wife sued John de Lorty and others in the Court of Common Pleas regarding messuages, lands, and rent in West Camel, Somerset. In 1344 he and Ela his wife conveyed the manor and the advowson of the chapel of Kingston (in Yeovil), Somerset to John de Chideock. In 1344 William de Morley sued Robert and Ela his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding waste in the manor of Aslackby, Lincolnshire, which the said Ela held in dower of the inheritance of William. In 1348 Margaret de Wygeton sued Robert son of Robert le Fitz Payn and Ela his wife in a Somerset plea regarding land. In 1349 he leased to Robert de Sambourn, rector of Kingstone, Somerset, the pasture called Somerlese in the manor of Allowenshay (in Kingstone), Somerset. The same year James de Audeleye sued him in the Court of Common Pleas regarding services which Edward, Prince of Wales, demanded of him of the fee which the said Robert held in Shobrooke, Devon. In 1350 Robert and Ela his wife settled the manor of Allowenshay (in Kingstone), Somerset on Robert for life, with reversion to John de Chidiok, Knt., and his heirs. In 1354 Robert and Ela his wife quitclaimed the manor of Downhead, Somerset to Richard de Acton and John de Somerton and the heirs of Richard. In 1354 Robert and Ela his wife acknowledged the right of William de Wyngham to the manor of Sevenhampton Deneys, Somerset to hold to him and his heirs. In 1354 Thomas Wygod, parson of Wotton, and another granted Robert Fitz Payn and his heirs male the manors of Cary Fitzpaine (in Charleton Mackrell), Charleton Mackrell, Cheddon Fitzpaine (in Charlton Fitzpaine), and Staple Fitzpaine, Somerset; in default of heirs male of the said Robert, the manors to revert to Robert son of Richard de Grey, of Codnor, and Elizabeth his wife and their heirs male, and if Robert son of Richard die without such heirs, then after the decease of Elizabeth his wife, the manors to remain to the right heirs of Robert Fitz Payn. SIR ROBERT FITZ PAYN, 2nd Lord Fitz Payn, died 30 Nov. 1354. His widow, Ela, died 16 Feb. 1355/6.

References:

Bridges, Hist. & Antiqs. of Northamptonshire 1 (1791): 241. Blomefield, Essay towards a Topog. Hist. of Norfolk 2 (1805): 432–445. Baker, Hist. & Antiqs. of the County of Northampton 2 (1836–41): 59–60 (Mareschall-Morley ped.). Gentleman’s Mag. n.s. 8 (1837): 21–22. Carthew, Hundred of Launditch & Deanery of Brisley 1 (1877): 67–69 (Rye-Marischal-Morley-Lovell-Parker ped.). Year Books of Edward III: Year XIV 4 (Rolls Ser. 31b) (1888): 24–34. Weaver, Somerset Incumbents (1889): 49, 113, 166, 330, 390, 434. C.P.R. 1307–1313 (1894): 403. Green, Feet of Fines for Somerset 2 (Somerset Rec. Soc. 12) (1898): 90–91, 93, 120–121, 134–135, 164, 226; 3 (Somerset Rec. Soc. 17) (1902): 17–18, 25, 27. C.P.R. 1317–1321 (1903): 44. Pike, Year Books of Edward III: Years XVIII–XIX 12 (Rolls Ser. 31b) (1905): 22–23. Index of Placita de Banco 1327–1328 1 (PRO Lists and Indexes 32) (1910): 108, 117, 118, 121, 166, 467; 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 32) (1910): 495. Sharpe, Cal. of Coroners Rolls, City of London, A.D. 1300–1378 (1913): 185–187 (Date: 1 May 1342. “Information given to the aforesaid Coroner and Sheriffs that John de Forde, a chaplain, lay dead of a death other than his rightful death in the High Street opposite the church of St. Michael ‘atte Corne’ in the same parish, in the Ward of Farndone Within. The jurors ... say that a quarrel having broken out some time since between Ela, wife of Sir Robert Filz Payn, and the aforesaid John, the said Ela persuaded Hugh Lovel, her brother, Hugh de Colne, John le Stronge, late her servants, and two others to kill him; that accordingly on the preceding Friday after the hour of Vespers, they waylaid him in Shepe [sic] opposite Bredestrete, ... and that thereupon the said Hugh Lovel struck the said John de Forde secretly with a knife called ‘anelaz’ on the throat, while Hugh de Colne and John le Strong struck him with their knives called ‘Long-knives’ on the belly inflicting mortal wounds of which he died.”). Cal. IPM 10 (1921): 140–155, 245–259. C.P. 5 (1926): 448–453 (sub Fitzpayn); 8 (1932): 529 (sub Marshal). Elrington, Abs. of Feet of Fines Rel. Wiltshire (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 29) (1974): 17, 104. VCH Somerset 3 (1974): 203–209. Bennett, Beneficed Clergy in the Diocese of Lincoln during the Episcopate of Henry Burghersh, 1320–1340 2 (Ph.D. thesis, Univ. of York, 1989): 138. Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice, AR/1/738 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/282, image 229f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no282/aCP40no282fronts/IMG_0229.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/290, image 584f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no290/aCP40no290fronts/IMG_0584.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/324, image 73f (Hakeford vs. Lovel & Pavely) (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no324/aCP40no324fronts/IMG_0073.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/354, image 890 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E3/CP40no354/aCP40no354frNo1to200/IMG_0885.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/359, image 8865f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E3/CP40no359/aCP40no359mm1toEnd/IMG_8865.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/359, image 9175d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E3/CP40no359/bCP40no359mm1dtoEnd/IMG_9175.htm). Justices Itinerant: JUST1, no. 1426A, Image 2954, Year: 1339, Somerset (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/Just1no1426A/aJUST1no1426Afronts/IMG_2954.htm). Justices Itinerant: JUST1, no. 1426A, Image 2999, Year: 1339, Dorset (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/Just1no1426A/bJUST1no1426Adorses/IMG_2999.htm). National Archives, CP 25/1/177/79, #372; CP 25/1/177/80, #413; CP 25/1/286/32, #224 [see abstract of fines at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html].
Andrew Lancaster
2019-10-03 07:33:11 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
I see Andrew Lancaster from the newsgroup is one of the contributors to the Fitz Payn wikitree account. Hopefully Andrew can arrange for various corrections to be made so that an honest appraisal of the Fitz Payn family can be reflected on Wikitree. My comments here should not be construed as a personal attack on Andrew Lancaster. I like and respect Andrew. Presumably Andrew made a previous correction to a seriously flawed wikitree account and was simply credited for the correction. If that is the case, Andrew is to be commended.
Dear Doug

No problem! I will try to look at this ASAP. I am not sure what the article history is at this moment.

FYI, Wikitree has this policy of people being managers of profiles, but I am not a fan of it, at least for profiles before 1800 or so. As a result of the policy, just to work effectively editors end up having their name attached to profiles too often, and this can't be seen as showing a close connection between the "manager" and the content of the profile. The situation continues to evolve, with pre-1500 profiles now increasingly managed only by projects.

Best Regards
Andrew
Andrew Lancaster
2019-10-03 07:51:00 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
I see Andrew Lancaster from the newsgroup is one of the contributors to the Fitz Payn wikitree account. Hopefully Andrew can arrange for various corrections to be made so that an honest appraisal of the Fitz Payn family can be reflected on Wikitree. My comments here should not be construed as a personal attack on Andrew Lancaster. I like and respect Andrew. Presumably Andrew made a previous correction to a seriously flawed wikitree account and was simply credited for the correction. If that is the case, Andrew is to be commended.
Dear Doug
No problem! I will try to look at this ASAP. I am not sure what the article history is at this moment.
FYI, Wikitree has this policy of people being managers of profiles, but I am not a fan of it, at least for profiles before 1800 or so. As a result of the policy, just to work effectively editors end up having their name attached to profiles too often, and this can't be seen as showing a close connection between the "manager" and the content of the profile. The situation continues to evolve, with pre-1500 profiles now increasingly managed only by projects.
Best Regards
Andrew
FWIW, I misunderstood. You really did mean only that I contributed an edit to the profile for Robert FitzPayn. However the edit was only me adding Robert into a list of holders of the early feudal barony of Powerstock.

I've been trying to work through Sanders' early baronies on Wikitree, which I do hope will become a useful resource. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Early_English_Feudal_Baronies

(In principle there is no reason we can not eventually do this for every manor in England for example.)

In any case, I think the fixes needed for the problem you mention look easy. I'll first make sure no one has objections, but these should be fixed very soon. (Or else, in case we find a problem with your proposal, one of us Wikitree editors might come back here and comment or ask more questions!)
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