Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
There is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.
I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.
It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So you cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".
The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.
It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.
The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had illegitimate children.
I think the argument was that, if Clark showed no legitimate children for the elder Sir Edward Stradling, then Katherine must have been legitimate (a pretty weak argument, actually). But since Clark DOES list both legitimate and illegitimate children for Sir Edward Stradling and does NOT include Katherine in either group, there is no way to determine - from that source - whether Katherine was legitimate or illegitimate. And the 2004 discussion did not provide any other source indicating her maternity.
So...do you still feel, as you stated at the beginning of this current thread, that there "is no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity" i.e., that she was the daughter of Joan Beaufort as claimed by Douglas Richardson back in 2004? If so, what is now your reason for continuing to support that claim?
Hi John, thank you for the detailed replies! I was going to ask you about the source referring to the Stradling illegitimate children and you shared it in your last comment. There were comments in the past about how there was a mix up between the two Sir Edwards, but I wasn't able to find a detailed explanation about it. As such, I was curious to read the source myself and my main observation is that there are some errors and contradictions contained in it (on the basis of my quick review of relevant entries).
1) Clark indicates Alice, daughter of Earl of Arundel as the mother of Jane Beaufort
2) He assigns John as a bastard to the first Sir Edward and makes him the ancestor of Stradlings of Gelligaer. However, that entry (pg. 440) shows John’s grandson marrying in 1608 and having issue, which would make it impossible for the first Sir Edward (d. 1452) to be this John’s father.
3) He lists Catherine, d. of Sir Edward Stradling as the 1st wife of Morris Dennis and the mother of Walter Dennis (pg. 382) without indicating her being base born, even though he didn't list Catherine as one of Sir Edward Stradling's children (pg. 435).
Based on these, in my mind, Clark doesn’t appear to be a reliable source in regard to indicating 15th century legitimacy/illegitimacy and as such, since Sir Edward Stradling had only one wife, I would personally lean towards his daughter, Katherine, as being legitimate.
Plus, as Paolo said, an illegitimate daughter of knight would not have been an advantageous match for Maurice Dennis. As it happens, only yesterday I came across this passage in the The House of Beaufort (by Nathan Amin) about John of Gaunt's efforts to marry his (then) illegitimate daughter: "The Ferrers were an established gentry family based in Shropshire and Staffordshire, and had fought for the duke of Lancaster in the French wars. It was a solid, if unspectacular, engagement for Joan, with the marriage eventually taking place in 1392, shortly after Robert’s sixteenth birthday. On account of her illegitimate status, Joan was restricted from bringing any lands or titles to the marriage, and was therefore not an attractive marital prospect for any bachelors further up the social ladder seeking an estate by right of their wife"
Again, thank you all for your responses, they are very helpful.