Discussion:
Ancestry of Friedrich IV Graf von Toggenburg
(too old to reply)
Carl-Henry Geschwind
2021-03-05 23:46:00 UTC
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Genealogics.org currently does not provide any ancestry for Friedrich IV Graf von Toggenburg, who died at the battle of Morgarten in 1315 (see https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00703964&tree=LEO). The source provided in genealogics.org is Detlev Schwennicke's Europäische Stammtafeln 12:129-130; as I currently do not have access to ESNF, I do not know whether it is this source or just genealogics.org that stops at Friedrich IV.

The ancestry for Friedrich IV going back four generations to Diethelm I Graf von Toggenburg (fl. 1210-1229) is outlined in Genealogisches Handbuch zur Schweizer Geschichte, I (1908): 46-50. This outline (which can be accessed at https://archive.org/details/genealogischesh01gesegoog/page/n53/mode/2up) has the advantage that it actually cites original charters and other sources for all of its genealogical claims. I have followed the citations and have found the conclusions to be sound, at least as far as the paternal ancestry is concerned.

Cawley, in his February 2021 update to "Swabia: German-Speaking Switzerland" (https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SWABIAN%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc514513201), provides the same ancestry (though with different numbering of the individuals) and gives much the same documentation. As he closely follows the Genealogisches Handbuch (except in expressing doubt on some of the conclusions concerning wives) he seems to have gotten this ancestry correct - and thus this is a case where Cawley/Medlands offers more at present than genealogics.org.

I understand there are members of this group who have been in contact with the current operator of genealogics.org. Is this something that might be of interest to him?
joseph cook
2021-03-06 02:22:40 UTC
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Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
Genealogics.org currently does not provide any ancestry for Friedrich IV Graf von Toggenburg, who died at the battle of Morgarten in 1315 (see https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00703964&tree=LEO). The source provided in genealogics.org is Detlev Schwennicke's Europäische Stammtafeln 12:129-130; as I currently do not have access to ESNF, I do not know whether it is this source or just genealogics.org that stops at Friedrich IV.
The ancestry for Friedrich IV going back four generations to Diethelm I Graf von Toggenburg (fl. 1210-1229) is outlined in Genealogisches Handbuch zur Schweizer Geschichte, I (1908): 46-50. This outline (which can be accessed at https://archive.org/details/genealogischesh01gesegoog/page/n53/mode/2up) has the advantage that it actually cites original charters and other sources for all of its genealogical claims. I have followed the citations and have found the conclusions to be sound, at least as far as the paternal ancestry is concerned.
Cawley, in his February 2021 update to "Swabia: German-Speaking Switzerland" (https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SWABIAN%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc514513201), provides the same ancestry (though with different numbering of the individuals) and gives much the same documentation. As he closely follows the Genealogisches Handbuch (except in expressing doubt on some of the conclusions concerning wives) he seems to have gotten this ancestry correct - and thus this is a case where Cawley/Medlands offers more at present than genealogics.org.
I understand there are members of this group who have been in contact with the current operator of genealogics.org. Is this something that might be of interest to him?
Yes, and if you click on an individual's "suggest" tab, and enter the addition there with evidence/source, these are monitored and used!
--Joe C
Carl-Henry Geschwind
2021-03-06 11:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by joseph cook
Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
I understand there are members of this group who have been in contact with the current operator of genealogics.org. Is this something that might be of interest to him?
Yes, and if you click on an individual's "suggest" tab, and enter the addition there with evidence/source, these are monitored and used!
--Joe C
Thank you, Joe. You are right, he is indeed very responsive.
Peter Stewart
2021-03-06 03:08:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
Genealogics.org currently does not provide any ancestry for Friedrich IV Graf von Toggenburg, who died at the battle of Morgarten in 1315 (see https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00703964&tree=LEO). The source provided in genealogics.org is Detlev Schwennicke's Europäische Stammtafeln 12:129-130; as I currently do not have access to ESNF, I do not know whether it is this source or just genealogics.org that stops at Friedrich IV.
The ancestry for Friedrich IV going back four generations to Diethelm I Graf von Toggenburg (fl. 1210-1229) is outlined in Genealogisches Handbuch zur Schweizer Geschichte, I (1908): 46-50. This outline (which can be accessed at https://archive.org/details/genealogischesh01gesegoog/page/n53/mode/2up) has the advantage that it actually cites original charters and other sources for all of its genealogical claims. I have followed the citations and have found the conclusions to be sound, at least as far as the paternal ancestry is concerned.
Thanks for bringing up this family, which apparently has not been
mentioned here since a glancing notice of a daughter of Friedrich V in a
2002 thread.

There is a fairly extensive literature about Friedrich IV's predecessors
more recent than 1908 - you may find the following useful:

Paul Kläui, ‘Die Entstehung der Grafschaft Toggenburg’ in *Zeitschrift
für die Geschichte des Oberrheins* 90 (1938) 161-206

Jakob Bösch, ‘Die Grafen von Toggenburg’ in *Unser Rheintal* (1964) 27-40

Heinz Müller, ‘Die Grafen von Toggenburg: ein bedeutendes
ostschweizerisches Dynastengeschlecht’ in *Appenzeller Kalender* 147
(1968) unpaginated, here
https://www.e-periodica.ch/cntmng?pid=apk-002:1968:247::184

Otto Paul Clavadetscher, ‘Aufstieg, Machtbereich und Bedeutung der
Grafen von Toggenburg’ in *Die Stadt Uznach und die Grafen von
Toggenburg: historische Beiträge zum Uznacher Stadtjubiläum 1228-1978*
(Uznach, 1978) 9-36, here
http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/a/a149729.pdf

Regula Keller, *Die Grafen von Toggenburg: Aufstieg eines
ostschweizerischen Adelsgeschlechts in der Zeit von 1300 bis 1394*
(University of Zurich dissertation, 1993)

Charles Weber & René Stäheli, *Die Grafen von Toggenburg:
Nachschlagewerk* (Lichtensteig, 1997)

Erwin Eugster, Die Herren von Toggenburg in *Wirtschaft und Herrschaft:
Beiträge zur ländlichen Gesellschaft in der östlichen Schweiz
(1200-1800)*, edited by Roger Sablonier & Thomas Meier (Zurich, 1999)
311-342

Peter Stewart
Carl-Henry Geschwind
2021-03-06 03:32:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Thanks for bringing up this family, which apparently has not been
mentioned here since a glancing notice of a daughter of Friedrich V in a
2002 thread.
There is a fairly extensive literature about Friedrich IV's predecessors
Paul Kläui, ‘Die Entstehung der Grafschaft Toggenburg’ in *Zeitschrift
für die Geschichte des Oberrheins* 90 (1938) 161-206
Jakob Bösch, ‘Die Grafen von Toggenburg’ in *Unser Rheintal* (1964) 27-40
Heinz Müller, ‘Die Grafen von Toggenburg: ein bedeutendes
ostschweizerisches Dynastengeschlecht’ in *Appenzeller Kalender* 147
(1968) unpaginated, here
https://www.e-periodica.ch/cntmng?pid=apk-002:1968:247::184
Otto Paul Clavadetscher, ‘Aufstieg, Machtbereich und Bedeutung der
Grafen von Toggenburg’ in *Die Stadt Uznach und die Grafen von
Toggenburg: historische Beiträge zum Uznacher Stadtjubiläum 1228-1978*
(Uznach, 1978) 9-36, here
http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/a/a149729.pdf
Regula Keller, *Die Grafen von Toggenburg: Aufstieg eines
ostschweizerischen Adelsgeschlechts in der Zeit von 1300 bis 1394*
(University of Zurich dissertation, 1993)
Nachschlagewerk* (Lichtensteig, 1997)
Beiträge zur ländlichen Gesellschaft in der östlichen Schweiz
(1200-1800)*, edited by Roger Sablonier & Thomas Meier (Zurich, 1999)
311-342
Peter Stewart
Peter:

Thank you very much for this 20th-century bibliography! I will definitely look at the ones I can access via internet (around here libraries are still shut down due to COVID, and even inter-library loan isn't working, so I am unable to do proper library research - at least the Swiss have been good at putting 20th-century journals online).

--Carl-Henry
John Higgins
2021-03-06 05:24:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
Genealogics.org currently does not provide any ancestry for Friedrich IV Graf von Toggenburg, who died at the battle of Morgarten in 1315 (see https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00703964&tree=LEO). The source provided in genealogics.org is Detlev Schwennicke's Europäische Stammtafeln 12:129-130; as I currently do not have access to ESNF, I do not know whether it is this source or just genealogics.org that stops at Friedrich IV.
The ancestry for Friedrich IV going back four generations to Diethelm I Graf von Toggenburg (fl. 1210-1229) is outlined in Genealogisches Handbuch zur Schweizer Geschichte, I (1908): 46-50. This outline (which can be accessed at https://archive.org/details/genealogischesh01gesegoog/page/n53/mode/2up) has the advantage that it actually cites original charters and other sources for all of its genealogical claims. I have followed the citations and have found the conclusions to be sound, at least as far as the paternal ancestry is concerned.
Cawley, in his February 2021 update to "Swabia: German-Speaking Switzerland" (https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SWABIAN%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc514513201), provides the same ancestry (though with different numbering of the individuals) and gives much the same documentation. As he closely follows the Genealogisches Handbuch (except in expressing doubt on some of the conclusions concerning wives) he seems to have gotten this ancestry correct - and thus this is a case where Cawley/Medlands offers more at present than genealogics.org.
I understand there are members of this group who have been in contact with the current operator of genealogics.org. Is this something that might be of interest to him?
John Higgins
2021-03-06 05:44:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
Genealogics.org currently does not provide any ancestry for Friedrich IV Graf von Toggenburg, who died at the battle of Morgarten in 1315 (see https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00703964&tree=LEO). The source provided in genealogics.org is Detlev Schwennicke's Europäische Stammtafeln 12:129-130; as I currently do not have access to ESNF, I do not know whether it is this source or just genealogics.org that stops at Friedrich IV.
The ancestry for Friedrich IV going back four generations to Diethelm I Graf von Toggenburg (fl. 1210-1229) is outlined in Genealogisches Handbuch zur Schweizer Geschichte, I (1908): 46-50. This outline (which can be accessed at https://archive.org/details/genealogischesh01gesegoog/page/n53/mode/2up) has the advantage that it actually cites original charters and other sources for all of its genealogical claims. I have followed the citations and have found the conclusions to be sound, at least as far as the paternal ancestry is concerned.
Cawley, in his February 2021 update to "Swabia: German-Speaking Switzerland" (https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SWABIAN%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc514513201), provides the same ancestry (though with different numbering of the individuals) and gives much the same documentation. As he closely follows the Genealogisches Handbuch (except in expressing doubt on some of the conclusions concerning wives) he seems to have gotten this ancestry correct - and thus this is a case where Cawley/Medlands offers more at present than genealogics.org.
I understand there are members of this group who have been in contact with the current operator of genealogics.org. Is this something that might be of interest to him?
ESNF 12:129 does indeed go further back than Friedrich IV von Tottenburg - albeit with doubts at points. A quick review suggests that its earlier generations are somewhat the same, but not exactly, as the two sources you cite: Genealogisches Handbuch zur Schweizer Geschichte and Cawley's Medlands.

I'd recommend that you follow Joe's comment and use the "suggest" tab on Friedrich IV in Genealogics to advise Ian Fettes (the manager of Genealogics) that earlier ancestry is available for Friedrich IV. I'd include a link to this thread for his reference. He can then decide if he wants to take the effort to add this to Genealogics. It's up to him... Keep in mind that he has made it clear that there are limits to what he can do to maintain, or extend, Genealogics. Here is what he says on the website:

"Since the passing of Leo van de Pas, I have been maintaining the website in what I described as a maintenance mode. By this is meant that amendments and corrections to the data presented will be amended when advised by users. As well, specific additions are made to the database where these link together people already shown or are of general interest together with special projects I undertake from time to time. The scope of this is significantly less that Leo was able to do in his full-time role, whereas I am only able to do it in a part-time one."

Note the comment about "additions....of general interest". I respect Ian's judgments is this regard.

FWIW Friedrich IV von Tottenburg is ancestral to Prince William of Wales, and thus this extension may be of interest to Ian.
Carl-Henry Geschwind
2021-03-06 11:43:50 UTC
Permalink
ESNF 12:129 does indeed go further back than Friedrich IV von Tottenburg - albeit with doubts at points. A quick review suggests that its earlier generations are somewhat the same, but not exactly, as the two sources you cite: Genealogisches Handbuch zur Schweizer Geschichte and Cawley's Medlands.
"Since the passing of Leo van de Pas, I have been maintaining the website in what I described as a maintenance mode. By this is meant that amendments and corrections to the data presented will be amended when advised by users. As well, specific additions are made to the database where these link together people already shown or are of general interest together with special projects I undertake from time to time. The scope of this is significantly less that Leo was able to do in his full-time role, whereas I am only able to do it in a part-time one."
Note the comment about "additions....of general interest". I respect Ian's judgments is this regard.
FWIW Friedrich IV von Tottenburg is ancestral to Prince William of Wales, and thus this extension may be of interest to Ian.
Thank you, John - these are very good insights.
Carl-Henry Geschwind
2021-03-08 15:12:06 UTC
Permalink
ESNF 12:129 does indeed go further back than Friedrich IV von Tottenburg - albeit with doubts at points. A quick review suggests that its earlier generations are somewhat the same, but not exactly, as the two sources you cite: Genealogisches Handbuch zur Schweizer Geschichte and Cawley's Medlands.
John:

I am interested in your statement that ESNF 12:129 (to which I currently do not have access) does not have the exact same genealogy as the two other sources.

I am wondering whether ESNF at least agrees on this minimal genealogy for Friedrich IV., for which I believe the evidence is particularly strong (and which is not only ancestral to Prince Charles, but also provides a connection to someone already in Genealogics):

Parent:
Friedrich III. Graf von Toggenburg (fl. 1260-1300, dead by 1309)

Grandparent:
Kraft I. Graf von Toggenburg (fl. 1228-1249, dead by 1255)

Great-grandparents:
Diethelm II. Graf von Toggenburg (fl. 1214-1236, dead by 1247)
Gertrude von Neuenburg (buried March 1260)

Great-great-grandparents:
Diethelm I. Graf von Toggenburg (fl. 1210-1228, dead by 1236)
Guota/Jutta [no evidence that she was a von Rapperswil] (fl. 1214-1226)
Ulrich III. Graf von Neuenburg - https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00197145&tree=LEO

Thanks!
John Higgins
2021-03-09 22:55:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
ESNF 12:129 does indeed go further back than Friedrich IV von Tottenburg - albeit with doubts at points. A quick review suggests that its earlier generations are somewhat the same, but not exactly, as the two sources you cite: Genealogisches Handbuch zur Schweizer Geschichte and Cawley's Medlands.
I am interested in your statement that ESNF 12:129 (to which I currently do not have access) does not have the exact same genealogy as the two other sources.
Friedrich III. Graf von Toggenburg (fl. 1260-1300, dead by 1309)
Kraft I. Graf von Toggenburg (fl. 1228-1249, dead by 1255)
Diethelm II. Graf von Toggenburg (fl. 1214-1236, dead by 1247)
Gertrude von Neuenburg (buried March 1260)
Diethelm I. Graf von Toggenburg (fl. 1210-1228, dead by 1236)
Guota/Jutta [no evidence that she was a von Rapperswil] (fl. 1214-1226)
Ulrich III. Graf von Neuenburg - https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00197145&tree=LEO
Thanks!
For the generations you list above (ancestral to Fredrich IV), ESNF is in agreement with the other two sources with respect to the names of the individuals (and their spouses), although there are some minor differences in some of the dates. If you send me an email offline, I can send you copies of the relevant pages from ESNF, along with the source ESNF uses. My username for Yahoo mail is "jhigginsgen".

With respect to Jutta/Guota von Rapperswil, ESNF shows her in table 129 of vol. 12 (Toggenburg) as daughter of Ulrich von Rapperswil zu Wandelburg. The same relationship is given in table 127 of vol. 12 (Rapperswil). As it happens, the first source listed by ESNF for both families is the volume of Genealogisches Handbuch zur Schweizer Geschichte that you cited. In the case of Rapperswil, the chart pedigree on p. 63 of that volume is quite at variance with the ESNF tables 127-128 for Rapperswil. Go figure....

Thanks for pointing out the connection to Ulrich III, Graf von Neuenburg. When I have a chance, I'll send a note to Ian Fettes so that he can extend the Toggenburg line back to Ulrich III.
Carl-Henry Geschwind
2021-03-09 23:27:31 UTC
Permalink
For the generations you list above (ancestral to Fredrich IV), ESNF is in agreement with the other two sources with respect to the names of the individuals (and their spouses), although there are some minor differences in some of the dates. If you send me an email offline, I can send you copies of the relevant pages from ESNF, along with the source ESNF uses. My username for Yahoo mail is "jhigginsgen".
With respect to Jutta/Guota von Rapperswil, ESNF shows her in table 129 of vol. 12 (Toggenburg) as daughter of Ulrich von Rapperswil zu Wandelburg. The same relationship is given in table 127 of vol. 12 (Rapperswil). As it happens, the first source listed by ESNF for both families is the volume of Genealogisches Handbuch zur Schweizer Geschichte that you cited. In the case of Rapperswil, the chart pedigree on p. 63 of that volume is quite at variance with the ESNF tables 127-128 for Rapperswil. Go figure....
Thanks for pointing out the connection to Ulrich III, Graf von Neuenburg. When I have a chance, I'll send a note to Ian Fettes so that he can extend the Toggenburg line back to Ulrich III.
Hi John:

Thank you very much for your response. I will send you a separate e-mail offline.

I did expect there to be slight discrepancies in the dates, as I was being conservative (there is no doubt that the death of Friedrich III. can be bracketed to 1300 x 1309; bracketing it to 1303 x 1305 relies on the presence or absence of "junioris" as a modifier for the name of Friedrich IV. in a couple of charters).

As to the counts of Rapperswil - yeah, that genealogy seems to be a mess. There is a reference on p. 64 in the Genealogisches Handbuch to an intense controversy among late 19th century Swiss genealogists about how many Rudolphs of Rapperswil there actually were, and if the relationships between them were father-son or uncle-nephew - perhaps 20th-century genealogists have come to some kind of resolution (haven't pursued it yet, as not relevant to my personal tree). As far as I can tell Guota (for which the modern German standardization would be Jutta) appears only in a single charter (from 1214) with no surname (she was still alive, but not named, when her husband donated Toggenburg and Wil in 1226). I believe it has been assumed that she was a von Rapperswil in order to explain how the castle of Uznaberg (about 6 miles east of Rapperswil) ended up in Toggenburg hands by the 1230s. While this certainly is a possibility, I don't think it is the only conceivable way through which Uznaberg might have been acquired.
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