Discussion:
Location of charter naming Constance as daughter of Adélaïde alias Blanche of Anjou
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The Hoorn
2017-11-11 20:00:21 UTC
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According to Stewart Baldwin's Henry Project, Constance of Arles, wife of King Robert of France (996–1031) "last occurs in a securely dated document from Provence with her mother (Adélaïde alias Blanche of Anjou, wife of Guillaume I (or II), count of Provence (Arles)) and brother in a charter for Montmajour dated in August 1001 [“in mense Augusto…Indictione XIV”, “signum Adalax Comitissæ et filii sui Willelmi Comitis et filiæ suæ Constantiæ, qui hanc Chartam facere jusserunt”, quoted in RHF 10:569.

In reviewing RHF 10:569, no reference is given to the primary source document. Did this appear in any printed version of the charter in its entirety or is there a manuscript number and repository where one can view the document?

Thanks in advance for your help.
Peter Stewart
2017-11-12 00:44:30 UTC
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Post by The Hoorn
According to Stewart Baldwin's Henry Project, Constance of Arles, wife of King
Robert of France (996–1031) "last occurs in a securely dated document from
Provence with her mother (Adélaïde alias Blanche of Anjou, wife of Guillaume I
(or II), count of Provence (Arles)) and brother in a charter for Montmajour dated
in August 1001 [“in mense Augusto…Indictione XIV”, “signum Adalax Comitissæ et
filii sui Willelmi Comitis et filiæ suæ Constantiæ, qui hanc Chartam facere
jusserunt”, quoted in RHF 10:569.
In reviewing RHF 10:569, no reference is given to the primary source document.
Did this appear in any printed version of the charter in its entirety or is
there a manuscript number and repository where one can view the document?
I'm afraid not, Hans - the original charter is no longer extant, and at the time I wrote the Henry Project page for Constance there was no closer approximation available to me than the brief quotation in RHF 10.

Due to disgraceful negligence on the part of Gallica (and, less reprehensibly, of Google Books' partner libraries too) the highly important history of Montmajour that provides the only published edition of this charter I know of is not yet digitised - this is 'Histoire de Montmajour, d'après Dom Chantelou, avec documents inédits', edited by Scipion du Roure in a supplement to *Revue historique de Provence* 1 (1890-1891), in which this charter is on pp. 70-71 as cited by Georges de Manteyer in *La Provence du premier au douzième siècle* (1908) p. 257 note 1 (where the date is not quoted).

The charter may be edited also in Louis Royer's thesis *L'abbaye de Montmajour-lez-Arles du Xe au XVe siècle* (Ecole des chartes, 1910), but I haven't seen this, and given that the document had been published not long before I doubt that it was included.

Meanwhile the closest approximation I can find now is a summary of the charter in *Monasticon Benedictinum*, tome 29 (Paris, Bibliothèque nationale, ms latin 12686) fol 13r, here: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10520063g/f33.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2017-11-12 01:37:32 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Post by The Hoorn
According to Stewart Baldwin's Henry Project, Constance of Arles, wife of King
Robert of France (996–1031) "last occurs in a securely dated document from
Provence with her mother (Adélaïde alias Blanche of Anjou, wife of Guillaume I
(or II), count of Provence (Arles)) and brother in a charter for Montmajour dated
in August 1001 [“in mense Augusto…Indictione XIV”, “signum Adalax Comitissæ et
filii sui Willelmi Comitis et filiæ suæ Constantiæ, qui hanc Chartam facere
jusserunt”, quoted in RHF 10:569.
In reviewing RHF 10:569, no reference is given to the primary source document.
Did this appear in any printed version of the charter in its entirety or is
there a manuscript number and repository where one can view the document?
I'm afraid not, Hans - the original charter is no longer extant, and at the time I wrote the Henry Project page for Constance there was no closer approximation available to me than the brief quotation in RHF 10.
Due to disgraceful negligence on the part of Gallica (and, less reprehensibly, of Google Books' partner libraries too) the highly important history of Montmajour that provides the only published edition of this charter I know of is not yet digitised - this is 'Histoire de Montmajour, d'après Dom Chantelou, avec documents inédits', edited by Scipion du Roure in a supplement to *Revue historique de Provence* 1 (1890-1891), in which this charter is on pp. 70-71 as cited by Georges de Manteyer in *La Provence du premier au douzième siècle* (1908) p. 257 note 1 (where the date is not quoted).
I should add that one of the manuscripts of Chantelou's history of
Montmajour is held in the Bibliothèque nationale, and this too they have
not yet placed on Gallica. Whoever decides their priorities for
digitising items concerning medieval Provence ought to be ashamed.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2017-11-12 05:30:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by The Hoorn
According to Stewart Baldwin's Henry Project, Constance of Arles, wife of King
Robert of France (996–1031) "last occurs in a securely dated document from
Provence with her mother (Adélaïde alias Blanche of Anjou, wife of Guillaume I
(or II), count of Provence (Arles)) and brother in a charter for Montmajour dated
in August 1001 [“in mense Augusto…Indictione XIV”, “signum Adalax Comitissæ et
filii sui Willelmi Comitis et filiæ suæ Constantiæ, qui hanc Chartam facere
jusserunt”, quoted in RHF 10:569.
In reviewing RHF 10:569, no reference is given to the primary source document.
Did this appear in any printed version of the charter in its entirety or is
there a manuscript number and repository where one can view the document?
I'm afraid not, Hans
My apologies to you and to Hans Vogels for addressing you by his name - you are both among the few here who share some of my own areas of interest, and of course I owed you the courtesy of noting correctly who raised this topic.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2017-11-12 13:15:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by The Hoorn
According to Stewart Baldwin's Henry Project, Constance of Arles, wife of King
Robert of France (996–1031) "last occurs in a securely dated document from
Provence with her mother (Adélaïde alias Blanche of Anjou, wife of Guillaume I
(or II), count of Provence (Arles)) and brother in a charter for Montmajour dated
in August 1001 [“in mense Augusto…Indictione XIV”, “signum Adalax Comitissæ et
filii sui Willelmi Comitis et filiæ suæ Constantiæ, qui hanc Chartam facere
jusserunt”, quoted in RHF 10:569.
In reviewing RHF 10:569, no reference is given to the primary source document.
Did this appear in any printed version of the charter in its entirety or is
there a manuscript number and repository where one can view the document?
I'm afraid not, Hans - the original charter is no longer extant, and at the
time I wrote the Henry Project page for Constance there was no closer
approximation available to me than the brief quotation in RHF 10.
Due to disgraceful negligence on the part of Gallica (and, less reprehensibly,
of Google Books' partner libraries too) the highly important history of
Montmajour that provides the only published edition of this charter I know of
is not yet digitised - this is 'Histoire de Montmajour, d'après Dom Chantelou,
avec documents inédits', edited by Scipion du Roure in a supplement to *Revue
historique de Provence* 1 (1890-1891), in which this charter is on pp. 70-71 as
cited by Georges de Manteyer in *La Provence du premier au douzième siècle*
(1908) p. 257 note 1 (where the date is not quoted).
The charter may be edited also in Louis Royer's thesis *L'abbaye de Montmajour-
lez-Arles du Xe au XVe siècle* (Ecole des chartes, 1910), but I haven't seen
this, and given that the document had been published not long before I doubt
that it was included.
Meanwhile the closest approximation I can find now is a summary of the charter
in *Monasticon Benedictinum*, tome 29 (Paris, Bibliothèque nationale, ms latin
12686) fol 13r, here: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10520063g/f33.
A manuscript copy of Chaude Chantelou's history of Montmajour (Arles, Médiathèque, MS 164) is available online - the transcription of this charter is on pp. 82-83, here:

http://www.e-corpus.org/notices/103672/gallery/1208507

and here:

http://www.e-corpus.org/notices/103672/gallery/1208508

or at least I think these are the right links, but the website is cumbersome and my internet speed and patience are not up to the task of waiting to check. I viewed it in "turn the pages" mode but can't provide a link that way. In any case it adds little to the summary version on Gallica linked above.

In this copy the transcription is clumsily inaccurate at the start, with Guillaume's name in the genitive instead of nominative and Constance ostensibly as his daughter rather than Adelaide's, "Ego in Dei nomen Adalax comitissa, et filius meus Willelmi [sic] comes, et filia sua [sic] Constantia".

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2017-11-12 13:23:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by The Hoorn
According to Stewart Baldwin's Henry Project, Constance of Arles, wife of King
Robert of France (996–1031) "last occurs in a securely dated document from
Provence with her mother (Adélaïde alias Blanche of Anjou, wife of Guillaume I
(or II), count of Provence (Arles)) and brother in a charter for Montmajour dated
in August 1001 [“in mense Augusto…Indictione XIV”, “signum Adalax Comitissæ et
filii sui Willelmi Comitis et filiæ suæ Constantiæ, qui hanc Chartam facere
jusserunt”, quoted in RHF 10:569.
In reviewing RHF 10:569, no reference is given to the primary source document.
Did this appear in any printed version of the charter in its entirety or is
there a manuscript number and repository where one can view the document?
I'm afraid not, Hans - the original charter is no longer extant, and at the
time I wrote the Henry Project page for Constance there was no closer
approximation available to me than the brief quotation in RHF 10.
Due to disgraceful negligence on the part of Gallica (and, less reprehensibly,
of Google Books' partner libraries too) the highly important history of
Montmajour that provides the only published edition of this charter I know of
is not yet digitised - this is 'Histoire de Montmajour, d'après Dom Chantelou,
avec documents inédits', edited by Scipion du Roure in a supplement to *Revue
historique de Provence* 1 (1890-1891), in which this charter is on pp. 70-71 as
cited by Georges de Manteyer in *La Provence du premier au douzième siècle*
(1908) p. 257 note 1 (where the date is not quoted).
The charter may be edited also in Louis Royer's thesis *L'abbaye de Montmajour-
lez-Arles du Xe au XVe siècle* (Ecole des chartes, 1910), but I haven't seen
this, and given that the document had been published not long before I doubt
that it was included.
Meanwhile the closest approximation I can find now is a summary of the charter
in *Monasticon Benedictinum*, tome 29 (Paris, Bibliothèque nationale, ms latin
12686) fol 13r, here: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10520063g/f33.
http://www.e-corpus.org/notices/103672/gallery/1208507
http://www.e-corpus.org/notices/103672/gallery/1208508
or at least I think these are the right links,
The links may be right (I still don't know) but the page references are
askew - 82-83 are the page numbers according to the "turn the page" mode
view, but in the manuscript they are numbered 78-79.

Peter Stewart
taf
2017-11-12 16:01:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
A manuscript copy of Chaude Chantelou's history of Montmajour (Arles,
Médiathèque, MS 164) is available online - the transcription of this
http://www.e-corpus.org/notices/103672/gallery/1208507
http://www.e-corpus.org/notices/103672/gallery/1208508
or at least I think these are the right links, but the website is
cumbersome and my internet speed and patience are not up to the task
of waiting to check. I viewed it in "turn the pages" mode but can't
provide a link that way. In any case it adds little to the summary
version on Gallica linked above.
What a horrible interface - I can't get the images to load at all.

taf
The Hoorn
2017-11-12 20:21:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Peter: Thanks for your very detailed and informing reply. I appreciate your taking the time to post the links to this group. Like others, I am having trouble obtaining or being able to download the images. But that's not your problem. That's on the e-corpus site.

Again, my thanks.
Peter Stewart
2017-11-12 21:17:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Peter Stewart
A manuscript copy of Chaude Chantelou's history of Montmajour (Arles,
Médiathèque, MS 164) is available online - the transcription of this
http://www.e-corpus.org/notices/103672/gallery/1208507
http://www.e-corpus.org/notices/103672/gallery/1208508
or at least I think these are the right links, but the website is
cumbersome and my internet speed and patience are not up to the task
of waiting to check. I viewed it in "turn the pages" mode but can't
provide a link that way. In any case it adds little to the summary
version on Gallica linked above.
What a horrible interface - I can't get the images to load at all.
I thought it was just my incompetence and/or slow connection, but since
it happens also to a competent user elsewhere it is apparently their fault.

It's a mystery why anyone would design a website so poorly, both
visually and technically, and then not allow download of material that
is offered to view. It's like wanting to become a parent by getting half
pregnant. Anyway, "turn the page" mode works for me.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2017-11-14 00:58:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
A manuscript copy of Chaude Chantelou's history of Montmajour (Arles,
Médiathèque, MS 164) is available online
I have been asked off-list if this is Chantelou's own manuscrript - the answer is no, this is an incomplete later copy.

The original manuscript is in the Bibliothèque nationale, MS latin 13915, which they have not yet bothered to place on Gallica.

The published version I mentioned before was not edited from this, but from one of the copies held in the Médiathèque d'Arles, MS 755, which they also have not yet placed online. But anyway this is reportedly a very defective copy, and the authorities in charge of Gallica should have pulled out their collective fingers long ago to make BnF latin 13915 available.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2021-04-16 07:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
A manuscript copy of Chaude Chantelou's history of Montmajour (Arles,
Médiathèque, MS 164) is available online
I have been asked off-list if this is Chantelou's own manuscrript - the answer is no, this is an incomplete later copy.
The original manuscript is in the Bibliothèque nationale, MS latin 13915, which they have not yet bothered to place on Gallica.
The published version I mentioned before was not edited from this, but from one of the copies held in the Médiathèque d'Arles, MS 755, which they also have not yet placed online. But anyway this is reportedly a very defective copy, and the authorities in charge of Gallica should have pulled out their collective fingers long ago to make BnF latin 13915 available.
Happily they did this last November - here: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10073789v.

Peter Stewart

Paulo Canedo
2017-11-12 21:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Stewart, in the thread http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2002-05/1021700097 in 2005 you said that you believed that the Adelaide who married Raymond of Gothia, Louis V of France and Guillaume I of Provence was more likely the daughter of the Adelaide who married Etiénne de Brioude rather than the Adelaide who married Etiénne de Brioude herself. Do you still endorse that hypothesis or have you changed your opinion?
Peter Stewart
2017-11-12 22:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Canedo
Mr. Stewart, in the thread http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2002-05/1021700097 in 2005 you said that you believed that the Adelaide who married Raymond of Gothia, Louis V of France and Guillaume I of Provence was more likely the daughter of the Adelaide who married Etiénne de Brioude rather than the Adelaide who married Etiénne de Brioude herself. Do you still endorse that hypothesis or have you changed your opinion?
No, I revised that years ago though I don't recall the thread. The
evidence is that the same Adelaide married Étienne (the acute is on the
first letter in the name, not on the second 'e') and all three other
husbands. The problem of the age of her sons by Étienne is more likely
to indicate unreliability of the source rather than providing good
evidence against hyper-extended childbearing years on her part.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2017-11-13 03:12:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Canedo
Mr. Stewart, in the thread http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2002-05/1021700097 in 2005 you said that you believed that the Adelaide who married Raymond of Gothia, Louis V of France and Guillaume I of Provence was more likely the daughter of the Adelaide who married Etiénne de Brioude rather than the Adelaide who married Etiénne de Brioude herself. Do you still endorse that hypothesis or have you changed your opinion?
I have tried to find the thread in which I rejected my own speculation,
but the search engine doesn't come up with it for any terms I can think
of entering.

The thread linked above was in 2002, not 2005. I suppose the topic has
come up several times over the past 15 years. In the Henry Project page
for Robert II's wife Constance of Arles
(http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/const000.htm, uploaded
in 2012) I gave her mother as "Adélaïde alias Blanche, d. 1026, daughter
of Foulques II, count of Anjou" so I assume the elusive SGM thread was
before then.

Peter Stewart
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