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William de Beauchamp, baron of Bedford (died 1260) & Ida Longespée his wife
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c***@gmail.com
2019-02-09 00:55:24 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

Note: This is a revision of a post which I made earlier today. In the earlier post, I inadvertedly confused William de Beauchamp, baron of Bedford, died 1260, with his son of the same name who died in 1262. The two men have been sorted out correctly in the current post. I apologize for any confusion.

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Sir William de Beauchamp, baron of Bedford (died 1260) had a long and interesting life. He was a Baron of the Exchequer, Sheriff of Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire, 1235–7, hereditary Grand Almoner at Coronation of King Henry III, and lived to an advanced age. His second wife, Ida, was the daughter of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury (died 1226), and hence a granddaughter of King Henry II.

Below are various records which concern the last years of Sir William de Beauchamp's life.

1. He presented to the church of Tyringham, Buckinghamshire in 1251–2. Reference: Lipscomb, History & Antiqs. of Buckingham 4 (1847): 379, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=mXkgAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA379

2. On 8 June 1256 the Abbot of Wardon was quit of 50 marks at which he was amerced before the king against William de Beauchamp of Bedford for a false claim. Reference: Henry III Fine Rolls Project, Fine Rolls of Henry III, 41/825 available at the following weblink:

http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/home.html

3. About 25 Jan. 1257 his son, Simon’s widow, Isabel de Beauchamp, arraigned an assize of novel disseisin against him in a Bedfordshire plea. Reference: Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/1185, image 746 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/JUST1/JUST1no1185/IMG_0746.htm).

4. On 10 June 1257 he granted his son, William de Beauchamp, the Castle and barony of Bedford, Bedfordshire, the manor of Beauchamp, Essex, one messuage in Hendon, Middlesex, and one messuage, lands, and rent in Ickleton, Cambridgeshire. Reference: Fowler, Calendar of Feet of Fines for Bedfordshire (Pubs. Bedfordshire Hist. Soc. 6) (1919): 164, which is available at the following weblink:

https://archive.org/details/publicationsofbe06bedf/page/n285

5. On 30 June 1257 the king recorded that he had granted respite "from William de Beauchamp of Bedford and Ida his wife until the Assumption of Blessed Mary from 60 marks which they owed to the king and which was exacted from them by summons of the Exchequer concerning several debts." Reference: Henry III Fine Rolls Project, Fine Rolls of Henry III, 41/825 available at the following weblink:

http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/home.html

6. On 5 May 1257. "Concerning a fine of William de Beauchamp. The king has ratified and agreed to the gift which William de Beauchamp of Bedford made to William de Beauchamp his son of all his lands which he held of the king in chief, and the same William son of William for that ratification has made fine with the king by 500 marks, concerning which he will render 50 marks at the Exchequer of Michaelmas in the forty-first year and 50 marks at the Exchequer of Easter next following, and thus 100 marks from year to year at the same terms until the aforesaid 500 marks are paid. And concerning the aforesaid lands and tenements which the aforesaid his father held of the king in chief he will do the service due and accustomed therefor. And he has the king’s letters patent in respect thereof." Reference: Henry III Fine Rolls Project, Fine Rolls of Henry III, 41/612 available at the following weblink:

http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/home.html

7. Matthew Paris discusses the persecution of the Abbot of Wardon by Sir William de Beauchamp and Ida his wife. He states that Ida was of noble birth ["genere nobilem"]. On pages 356 and 554-555, he mentions William and Ida by name. Below is a partial transcript of the discussion on page 554.

pg. 554-555: “De Willelmo de Bello-Campo et Yda uxore ejus. Erat autem tunc temporis quidam miles dives, Willelmus de Bello-campo dictus, uxorem habens nomine Ydam, genere nobilem sed moribus degenerem nimis et ignobilem, quæ circumdegentium religiosorum et religiosarum persecutrix fuerat indefessa. Hæc igitur nacta jam nocendi abbati de Waredune de regis ira oportunitate ....”) Reference: Luard Matthæi Parisiensis, Monachi Sancti Albani, Chronica Majora 5 (Rolls Ser. 57) (1880): 356, 554–555, which may be viewed at the following weblinks:

https://books.google.com/books?id=bW_SAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA356

https://books.google.com/books?id=bW_SAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA554

8. For transcripts of undated letters written to Sir William de Beauchamp and his wife, Ida, see Brewer, Monumenta Franciscana 1 (Rolls Ser. 4) (1858): 286 (letter to William de Beauchamp), 301 (letter to Ida, wife of William de Beauchamp). These may be viewed at the following weblinks:

https://books.google.com/books?id=mklgfIm0FjAC&pg=PA286

https://books.google.com/books?id=mklgfIm0FjAC&pg=PA301

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The published Annals of Dunstable in Luard, Annales Monastici 3 (Rolls Ser. 36) (1866): 215 indicate that Sir William de Beauchamp died in 1260. Below is a transcript of that record which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=sYBJAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA215

Annals of Dunstable sub A.D. 1260 — “Eodem anno mortuus est Willelmus de Bellocampo senior; et domina Ida dotem suam ad libitum suum recepit, et statim ad Simonem de Pateshulle conversa, manerium suum apud Craule ingressa est, domos prostravit, arbores incidit, et alia damna enormis ibidem perpetravit.”).

Recently I was going through Common Pleas lawsuits for 1260 and I came across a lawsuit involving Sir William's widow, Ida Longespée, in the Michaelmas term of that year. Below is a brief abstract of this record:

In Michaelmas term 1260 Ida widow of William de Beauchamp sued Simon de Pateshill in the Court of Common Pleas in a Bedfordshire plea regarding dower.

Reference: Court of Common Pleas, KB26/169, image 8f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H3/KB26no169/aKB26no169fronts/IMG_0008.htm).

Michaelmas term in 1260 ran from 9 October to 29 November. As such, it would appear that Sir William de Beauchamp, baron of Bedford, died in 1260, sometime before 9 October 1260.

In Michaelmas term 1261 following, there is another suit between Sir William's widow, Ida, and Simon de Pateshulle in the Court of the King's Bench. In that lawsuit, Ida as William's widow sued Simon de Pateshulle for her dower in Legh and Sharnbrook, Bedfordshire.

Reference: Court of King’s Bench, KB26/171, image 13f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H3/KB26no171/aKB26no171fronts/IMG_0013.htm).

Claiming to take her dower at her choice, Ida, raided Simon's manor at Little Crawley (in North Crawley), Buckinghamshire, “pulled down houses, cut down trees, and did other enormous damage,” for which actions she was subsequently fined five marks.

On 16 April 1261 the king pardoned Ida de Beauchamp the 5 marks which she was amerced the previous year [the words "previous year" are interlined] before Gilbert of Preston in an assize of novel dissesin that Simon of Pattishall arraigned before the same Gilbert against her, concerning a tenement in Craul' [Little Crawley, Buckinghamshire]. The king gave order to the barons of the Exchequer to cause Ida to be quit from the aforesaid 5 marks. Reference: Henry III Fine Rolls Project, Fine Rolls of Henry III, 45/360 and 45/361 (16 April 1261) available at the following weblink:

http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/home.html

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir William de Beauchamp and his wife, Ida Longespée:

Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Samuel Argall, William Asfordby, Walter Aston, Barbara Aubrey, Charles Barham, Audrey Barlow, Marmaduke Beckwith, Dorothy Beresford, John Bevan, Essex Beville, Joseph Bickley, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Edward Bromfield, Nathaniel Browne, Stephen Bull, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth, John, and Thomas Butler, Charles & Leonard Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Edward Digges, George Elkington, John Fenwick, Henry Filmer, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Katherine Hamby, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Edmund Jennings, Edmund, Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Anne Lovelace, Henry, Jane, Nicholas, & Vincent Lowe, Percival Lowell, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John & Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, Elizabeth Saint John, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Rose Stoughton, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Jemima Waldegrave, Olive Welby, John West, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.

Do you descend from Sir William de Beauchamp and his wife, Ida Longespée? If so, I'd very much appreciate seeing your line(s) of descent from this couple down to about 1650. Thanks!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Jan Wolfe
2019-02-09 03:38:28 UTC
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On Friday, February 8, 2019 at 7:55:26 PM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
...
Post by c***@gmail.com
Do you descend from Sir William de Beauchamp and his wife, Ida Longespée? If so, I'd very much appreciate seeing your line(s) of descent from this couple down to about 1650. Thanks!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Possibly:
Maud de Beauchamp = Roger de Mowbray, d. 1266
Isabel de Mowbray = Adam de Newmarch, d. bef. 20 Jan 1303
de Newmarch = Geoffrey de Barnardiston
Thomas de Barnardiston, d. bef. 1316 = Margaret Willoughby
Thomas Barnardiston = Lucy Havering
Thomas Barnardiston = Joanna Frank
Roger Barnardiston, d. c. 1442 =Isabella Kelke
Thomas Barnardiston, d. 1461 =Joan Vavasour, d. 1453
Thomas Barnardiston, d. 1503 = Elizabeth Newport, d. 1526
Thomas Barnardiston, d. 1542 = bef 1 Jul 1510 Anne Lucas, d. c. 1560
Thomas Barnardiston, d. 1551 = Mary Walsingham
Thomas Barnardiston, d. 1619 = Elizabeth Hanchet, d. 1584
Thomas Barnardiston, d. 1610 = 1585 Mary Knightley, d. 1595
Thomas Barnardiston, d. 1681 = 1635 Anne Polsted, d. 1681
g***@gmail.com
2019-02-09 03:51:43 UTC
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First line, to Rose Stoughton:
1. Sir William de Beauchamp, Knt. = (2) Ida Longespée
2. Maud de Beauchamp = (1) Sir Roger de Mowbray, Knt.
3. Sir Roger de Mowbray, Knt. = Rose de Clare
4. Sir John de Mowbray, Knt. = Aline de Brewes
5. Sir John de Mowbray, Knt. = (1) Joan of Lancaster
6. Eleanor Mowbray = Robert La Warre
7. Joan La Warre = Sir Thomas West, Knt.
8. Reynold West, 6th Baron La Warre = Margaret Thorley
9. Mary West = Sir Roger Lewkenor, Knt.
10. Roger Lewkenor = Anne (--?--)
11. Edmund Lewkenor = Joan Tyrell
12. Elizabeth Lewkenor = Thomas Stoughton
13. Lawrence Stoughton = Rose Ive
14. Anthony Stoughton = Agnes Pierce
15. Rose Stoughton = Richard Otis

2nd Line, to my gr-grandmother, stopping at the recently mentioned (in the Peverel thread) Francis & Frances (St. Quintin) Lascelles:
1. Sir William de Beauchamp, Knt. = (2) Ida Longespée
2. Beatrice de Beauchamp = (1) Thomas Fitz Otes
3. Maud Fitz Thomas = Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt
4. Ada Botetourt = John de St. Philibert
5. Maud de St. Philibert = Sir Warin Trussell, Knt.
6. Maud Trussell = John Hastang
7. Maud Hastang = Ralph Stafford
8. Sir Humphrey Stafford, Knt.= Elizabeth Burdet
9. Sir Humphrey Stafford, Knt. = Eleanor Aylesbury
10. Joyce Stafford = Sir Marmaduke Constable, Knt.
11. Robert Constable = Joan Ingleby
12. Margaret Constable = (1) John St. Quintin
13. William St. Quintin = Dorothy Hastings
14. Gabriel St. Quintin = Dorothy Griffith
15. Sir George St. Quintin, Knt. = Agnes Creyke
16. Sir William St. Quintin, Knt., Bnt, = Mary Lacy
17. Frances St. Quintin = Colonel Francis Lascelles

Thanks,

Greg
P J Evans
2019-02-09 04:31:29 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear Newsgroup ~
Note: This is a revision of a post which I made earlier today. In the earlier post, I inadvertedly confused William de Beauchamp, baron of Bedford, died 1260, with his son of the same name who died in 1262. The two men have been sorted out correctly in the current post. I apologize for any confusion.
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Sir William de Beauchamp, baron of Bedford (died 1260) had a long and interesting life. He was a Baron of the Exchequer, Sheriff of Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire, 1235–7, hereditary Grand Almoner at Coronation of King Henry III, and lived to an advanced age. His second wife, Ida, was the daughter of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury (died 1226), and hence a granddaughter of King Henry II.
Below are various records which concern the last years of Sir William de Beauchamp's life.
https://books.google.com/books?id=mXkgAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA379
http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/home.html
3. About 25 Jan. 1257 his son, Simon’s widow, Isabel de Beauchamp, arraigned an assize of novel disseisin against him in a Bedfordshire plea. Reference: Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/1185, image 746 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/JUST1/JUST1no1185/IMG_0746.htm).
https://archive.org/details/publicationsofbe06bedf/page/n285
http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/home.html
http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/home.html
7. Matthew Paris discusses the persecution of the Abbot of Wardon by Sir William de Beauchamp and Ida his wife. He states that Ida was of noble birth ["genere nobilem"]. On pages 356 and 554-555, he mentions William and Ida by name. Below is a partial transcript of the discussion on page 554.
https://books.google.com/books?id=bW_SAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA356
https://books.google.com/books?id=bW_SAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA554
https://books.google.com/books?id=mklgfIm0FjAC&pg=PA286
https://books.google.com/books?id=mklgfIm0FjAC&pg=PA301
+ + + + + + + + + +
https://books.google.com/books?id=sYBJAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA215
Annals of Dunstable sub A.D. 1260 — “Eodem anno mortuus est Willelmus de Bellocampo senior; et domina Ida dotem suam ad libitum suum recepit, et statim ad Simonem de Pateshulle conversa, manerium suum apud Craule ingressa est, domos prostravit, arbores incidit, et alia damna enormis ibidem perpetravit.”).
In Michaelmas term 1260 Ida widow of William de Beauchamp sued Simon de Pateshill in the Court of Common Pleas in a Bedfordshire plea regarding dower.
Reference: Court of Common Pleas, KB26/169, image 8f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H3/KB26no169/aKB26no169fronts/IMG_0008.htm).
Michaelmas term in 1260 ran from 9 October to 29 November. As such, it would appear that Sir William de Beauchamp, baron of Bedford, died in 1260, sometime before 9 October 1260.
In Michaelmas term 1261 following, there is another suit between Sir William's widow, Ida, and Simon de Pateshulle in the Court of the King's Bench. In that lawsuit, Ida as William's widow sued Simon de Pateshulle for her dower in Legh and Sharnbrook, Bedfordshire.
Reference: Court of King’s Bench, KB26/171, image 13f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H3/KB26no171/aKB26no171fronts/IMG_0013.htm).
Claiming to take her dower at her choice, Ida, raided Simon's manor at Little Crawley (in North Crawley), Buckinghamshire, “pulled down houses, cut down trees, and did other enormous damage,” for which actions she was subsequently fined five marks.
http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/home.html
Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Samuel Argall, William Asfordby, Walter Aston, Barbara Aubrey, Charles Barham, Audrey Barlow, Marmaduke Beckwith, Dorothy Beresford, John Bevan, Essex Beville, Joseph Bickley, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Edward Bromfield, Nathaniel Browne, Stephen Bull, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth, John, and Thomas Butler, Charles & Leonard Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Edward Digges, George Elkington, John Fenwick, Henry Filmer, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Katherine Hamby, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Edmund Jennings, Edmund, Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Anne Lovelace, Henry, Jane, Nicholas, & Vincent Lowe, Percival Lowell, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John & Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, Elizabeth Saint John, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Rose Stoughton, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Jemima Waldegrave, Olive Welby, John West, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.
Do you descend from Sir William de Beauchamp and his wife, Ida Longespée? If so, I'd very much appreciate seeing your line(s) of descent from this couple down to about 1650. Thanks!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
One of my great-great-grandmothers is descended from both Audrey Barlow and Jeremy Clarke, and my niece-by-marriage is a descendant of Rose Stoughton.
Richard Smith
2019-02-09 15:44:29 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Do you descend from Sir William de Beauchamp and his wife, Ida
Longespée? If so, I'd very much appreciate seeing your line(s) of
descent from this couple down to about 1650. Thanks!
Not really sure how useful it is to post an unsourced line, and I don't
have time to write a detailed post giving my sources, but here's mine:

1. William de Beauchamp = Ida Longespée
2. Beatrice de Beauchamp = Thomas fitz Otes
3. Maud fitz Thomas = John Botetourt
4. Otes Botetourt = Sibyl
5. John Botetourt = Katherine de Weyland
6. Joan Botetourt = John Knyvet
7. Margaret Knyvet = Thomas Echyngham
8. Anne Echyngham (est 1425-1498) = John Rogers
9. Henry Rogers (c1446-c1506)
10. Margaret (est 1480-aft 1556) = Richard Lovell
11. Henry Lovell (est 1510-c1556) = Edith Camplin
12. Henry Lovell (1548-1612) = Bridget Rickman
13. John Lovell (1601-1643) = Jane Howell
14. Jane Lovell (1630-1695) = Francis Bull

Dates marked 'est' are crude estimates, probably accurate to no more
than plus or minus ten years. I've not included dates on the earlier
generations as I've done little primary research there myself and the
people are all well known.

I do have some concerns about the earlier generations, and in particular
whether there's any real evidence that Margaret Knyvet was the mother of
Anne Echyngham, or for that matter any of his other children. Many
secondary sources give Sir Thomas Echyngham an earlier wife, Agnes
Shoyswell, which seems to originate from an unsourced paper in 1850 by
Spencer Hall. My early thoughts are that this is probably wrong — that
there was no Agnes Shoyswell, at least not in that generation — but
others have accepted it and I don't been I've done enough research yet
to properly reject it. If Sir Thomas did marry Agnes Shoyswell, it must
have been before Margaret Knyvet, in which case it seems likely on
chronological grounds that all of Thomas's children were by Agnes.

Margaret in generation 10 is the illegitimate daughter of Sir Henry
Rogers. The identity of her mother is not stated in any sources I've
seen, which only referred to her with phrases like "Margaret bastard
daughter of Sir Henry Rogers". I have not assumed she bore his surname
prior to her marriage.

A brief summary of my research into generations 8-14 can be found in:

Smith, Richard A. "Royalty in the Forest". The Hampshire Family
Historian 43:3 (2016): 148–51, 43:4 (2016): 196–99 & 44:1 (2017): 32–35.

Richard
c***@gmail.com
2019-02-09 23:41:58 UTC
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Dear Richard ~

Thank you for your post. Much appreciated.

My comments are interspersed below. DR

On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 8:44:32 AM UTC-7, Richard Smith wrote:

< Not really sure how useful it is to post an unsourced line, and I don't
< have time to write a detailed post giving my sources, but here's mine:
<
< 1. William de Beauchamp = Ida Longespée
< 2. Beatrice de Beauchamp = Thomas fitz Otes
< 3. Maud fitz Thomas = John Botetourt
< 4. Otes Botetourt = Sibyl

Norfolk Antiq. Misc. 2nd Ser. 1 (1906): 81–87 (Knyvet ped. dated 1651) identifies Sibyl, wife of John [recte Otes] Botetourt, as “una filiarum et heredum … Domini de Dainecourte.”

Sibyl Botetourt was possibly a daughter of William or Reynold Deincourt, younger sons of Edmund Deincourt, Lord Deincourt, both of whom were killed at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314 — see Paget, Baronage 171 (1957): 3–5 (sub Deincourt)].

< 5. John Botetourt = Katherine de Weyland
< 6. Joan Botetourt = John Knyvet
< 7. Margaret Knyvet = Thomas Echyngham

I believe Margaret Knyvet was the sole wife of Sir Thomas Echingham and the mother of all of his children. See, for example, Benolte et al., Vis. of Sussex 1530, 1633–4 (H.S.P. 53) (1905): 124–126 (Echingham ped.), which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=j6wKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA124

F.H. Suckling in Genealogist n.s. 21 (1905): 243–250 states as follows:

“Mr. Hall assigns to this Sir Thomas two wives, ‘Margaret daughter of Sir Thomas Knyvett of the county of Norfolk, knight, and Agnes, daughter of John de Shoyswell, Lord of Shoyswell, which is situated to the north of the parish of Echyngham.’ Now three horseshoes, the arms of Shoyswell, were impaled with those of Echingham on the tomb of Sir William Echingham, grandfather of Sir Thomas, in the chancel of the Echingham church, so that unless, as is very probably, an error has been made, and Agnes de Shoyswell belonged to a previous generation, there must have been a double connection between the families. At any rate it may be regarded as certain that the widow of Sir Thomas, and the mother of his son Richard, if not also of his elder son, was Margaret Knyvett, not daughter of Sir Thomas Knyvett, as stated by Mr. Hall, but of ‘John Knyvett, senior,’ of the charters of which abstracts are printed below.”). END OF QUOTE.

Insofar as the date of marriage of Sir Thomas Echingham and Margaret Knyvet is concerned, Mr. Suckling believes it took place before 1424, when Thomas presented to the church of Barsham, Suffolk, a property held by Margaret's 1st husband, Robert Tye. The date 1424/5 may be the date intended for the actual presentation [i.e., in the 1st three months of 1425], as Margaret Knyvet was still styled widow of Thomas Marny, Knt., in a Common Pleas lawsuit dated Hilary 1425 [i.e., 1424/5], but was declared the wife of Thomas Echingham in a followup proceeding dated Michaelmas 1426. Likewise, if I read the Hilary 1425 proceeding correctly, Thomas Echingham served as one of Margaret's sureties on that date and conceivably she married him soon afterwards, possibly as early as that term and year.

An abstract of the Hilary 1425 lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink:

Court of Common Pleas, CP 40/659, rot. 425; CP 40/667, rot. 578; CP 40/669, rot. 114 (available at www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=1272).

Elsewhere Suckling in his work, History & Antiqs. of Suffolk 1 (1846): 44 lists all the early presentations to the church of Barsham, including the one made in 1424 by Thomas de Echingham. However, he provides only the year of each presentation, no days or months whatsoever. So I'm unable to tell if 1424/5 might actually be intended for this date. See the following weblink for Suckling's list:

https://books.google.com/books?id=EPI9AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA44

Be that as it may, I believe you are on safe ground to advance Margaret Knyvet as the mother of your Anne Echingham, wife of John Rogers.

< 8. Anne Echyngham (est 1425-1498) = John Rogers
< 9. Henry Rogers (c1446-c1506)
< 10. Margaret (est 1480-aft 1556) = Richard Lovell
< 11. Henry Lovell (est 1510-c1556) = Edith Camplin
< 12. Henry Lovell (1548-1612) = Bridget Rickman
< 13. John Lovell (1601-1643) = Jane Howell
< 14. Jane Lovell (1630-1695) = Francis Bull
<
< Dates marked 'est' are crude estimates, probably accurate to no more
< than plus or minus ten years. I've not included dates on the earlier
< generations as I've done little primary research there myself and the
< people are all well known.
<
< I do have some concerns about the earlier generations, and in particular
< whether there's any real evidence that Margaret Knyvet was the mother of
< Anne Echyngham, or for that matter any of his other children. Many
< secondary sources give Sir Thomas Echyngham an earlier wife, Agnes
< Shoyswell, which seems to originate from an unsourced paper in 1850 by
< Spencer Hall. My early thoughts are that this is probably wrong — that
< there was no Agnes Shoyswell, at least not in that generation — but
< others have accepted it and I don't been I've done enough research yet
< to properly reject it. If Sir Thomas did marry Agnes Shoyswell, it must
< have been before Margaret Knyvet, in which case it seems likely on
< chronological grounds that all of Thomas's children were by Agnes.
<
< A brief summary of my research into generations 8-14 can be found in:
<
Post by Richard Smith
Smith, Richard A. "Royalty in the Forest". The Hampshire Family
< Historian 43:3 (2016): 148–51, 43:4 (2016): 196–99 & 44:1 (2017): 32–35.
<
< Richard
a***@gmail.com
2019-02-09 21:18:52 UTC
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Do you descend from Sir William de Beauchamp and his wife, Ida Longespée? > If so, I'd very much appreciate seeing your line(s) of descent from this > > couple down to about 1650. Thanks!
My descent from William de Beauchamp (c1184-1260) and Ida Longespee (1204-1268):
Beatrice de Beauchamp (af 1219-bef Sep 1285) m. William de Munchensy (c 1229-bef May 1302)
William de Munchensy (c 1279-bef Nov 1318) m. Alice ___ (living 1317)
Thomas de Munchensy (c1314-bef 1364) m. Unknown
Thomas de Munchensy (bef 1343-bef Mar 1404) m. Joan Vauncy (?-?)
Joan Munchensy (?-Sep 1450) m. Richard Waldegrave (1379-Feb 1435)
Richard Waldegrave (?-c1464) m. Joan Doreward (?-af 1453)
Thomas Waldegrave (c1435-1472) m. Elizabeth Fray (1441-1478)
William Waldegrave (c1464-1527) m. Margaret Wentworth (c1463-1539)
George Waldegrave (c1483-1528) m. Anne Drury (1484-1572)
Edward Waldegrave (c1513-1584) m. Joan Acworth (1518-1590)
Margaret Waldegrave (af Apr 1556-?) m. William Clopton (c1539-1616)
Walter Clopton (1585-1622) m. Margaret Maidstone (1589-1666)
Rev William Clopton (1613-1671) m. Elizabeth Sutcliffe (?-1683)
William Clopton (1655-bef 1733) m. Ann Booth (1647-1717)
c***@gmail.com
2019-02-14 14:03:15 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

Here are a couple of new lawsuits involving Sir William de Beauchamp [died 1260], baron of Bedford, and his wife, Ida Longespée. The first lawsuit proves that William de Beauchamp was living as late as Michaelmas 1259. It also indicates that the fight between the Beauchamp family and Simon de Pateshull started before William de Beauchamp's death, not afterwards as implied by the Annals of Dunstable. The second lawsuit proves Ida Longespée was living as late as 1267.

1. In Michaelmas term 1259 Simon de Pateshull sued William de Beauchamp and Ida his wife in a Buckinghamshire pleas regarding the detention of cattle and trespass.

Reference: Court of King’s Bench, KB26/161, image 38f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H3/KB26no161/aKB26no161fronts/IMG_0038.htm).

2. In 1267 Robert Pugeys sued Ida de Beauchamp in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the theft of cattle at Stoke Poges, Buckinghamshire.

Reference: Court of Common Pleas, KB26/180, image 1904d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H3/KB26no180/bKB26no180dorses/IMG_1904.htm).

Do you descend from Sir William de Beauchamp and Ida Longespée? If so, I'd very much appreciate seeing your line(s) of descent from this couple down to about 1650. Thanks!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Wayne Morgan
2019-02-16 01:12:01 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear Newsgroup ~
Here are a couple of new lawsuits involving Sir William de Beauchamp [died 1260], baron of Bedford, and his wife, Ida Longespée. The first lawsuit proves that William de Beauchamp was living as late as Michaelmas 1259. It also indicates that the fight between the Beauchamp family and Simon de Pateshull started before William de Beauchamp's death, not afterwards as implied by the Annals of Dunstable. The second lawsuit proves Ida Longespée was living as late as 1267.
1. In Michaelmas term 1259 Simon de Pateshull sued William de Beauchamp and Ida his wife in a Buckinghamshire pleas regarding the detention of cattle and trespass.
Reference: Court of King’s Bench, KB26/161, image 38f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H3/KB26no161/aKB26no161fronts/IMG_0038.htm).
2. In 1267 Robert Pugeys sued Ida de Beauchamp in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the theft of cattle at Stoke Poges, Buckinghamshire.
Reference: Court of Common Pleas, KB26/180, image 1904d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H3/KB26no180/bKB26no180dorses/IMG_1904.htm).
Do you descend from Sir William de Beauchamp and Ida Longespée? If so, I'd very much appreciate seeing your line(s) of descent from this couple down to about 1650. Thanks!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Here are two similar routes from William de Beauchamp to Anne Lloyd/Yale/Eaton:

1. William de Beauchamp – Ida Longespee
2. Maud de Beauchamps – Roger de Mowbray
3. Roger de Mowbray – Roese de Clare
4. John de Mowbray – Aline de Braoise
5. Christianna de Mowbray – William de Plumpton
6. Alice de Plummpton – John Boteler
7. Elizabeth Butler – Piers de Dutton
8. Elizabeth de Dutton – John Donne
9. John Donne – Cecily Troutbeck
10. Elizabeth Donne – Thomas Hen Salusberry
11. Elsbeth Ferch Salusberry - Huw CONWY HÉN AP ROBIN AP GRUFFUDD GOCH, OF LLYS BRYNEURYN
12. Renold Conwy – Maud ferch William
13. Hugh Conwy Fichan – Annes VERCH OWEN AP MEURIG AP LLYEWLYN
14. Jonet Conwy – Meredith Lloyd
15. George Lloyd – Anne Wilkenson
16. Ann Lloyd – Theophilus Eaton


1. William de Beauchamp – Ida Longespee
2. Maud de Beauchamps – Roger de Mowbray
3. Roger de Mowbray – Roese de Clare
4. John de Mowbray – Aline de Braoise
5. Christianna de Mowbray – William de Plumpton
6. Alice de Plummpton – John Boteler
7. Elizabeth Butler – Piers de Dutton
8. Elizabeth de Dutton – John Donne
9. John Donne – Cecily Troutbeck
10. John Donne – Elizabeth de Wevere
11. Ellen Donne – David Middleton Hen
12. Anne Middleton – Morus Gethin
13. Margaret Gethin – John Lloyd
14. Meredith Lloyd – Jonet Conwy
15. George Lloyd – Anne Wilkenson
16. Ann Lloyd – Theophilus Eaton
Bronwen Edwards
2019-09-23 01:13:08 UTC
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William Beauchamp & Ida Longespee
Maud Beauchamp & Sir Roger Mowbray
Sir Roger Mowbray & Rohese de Clare
Sir John Mowbray & Aline de Braose
John Mowbray & Joan of Lancaster
John Mowbray & Elizabeth Segrave
Eleanor Mowbray & Sir John Welles
Ives/Eudo de Welles & Maud Greystoke
Sir William Welles & Anne Barnewall
*[splits into 2 lines here]*
Elizabeth Welles & James Fleming Lord Slane Ellen Welles & Walter Cheevers
George Fleming & Margaret Butler Margaret Cheevers & Bartholomew Aylmer
James Fleming & Ismay Dillon Anna Aylmer & Sir Thomas Luttrell
Thomas Fleming & Katherine Preston Margaret Luttrell & Sir Luke Netterville
Katherine Fleming & Piers FitzThomas Butler John Netterville & Eleanor Gernon
Sir Edmond Butler & Anne Butler Nicholas Netterville & Eleanor Bathe
Piers Butler & Margaret Netterville
*[back to a single line]*
Edmond Butler & Catherine Crispe
Piers Butler & Domville Hartpole
Edmond Butler & Anne Skellern
Bridget Butler & Theobald "Big Toby" Butler
William Butler & Caroline Massy
Caroline Butler & Hugh Massey Barrett
Joseph Barrett & Henrietta MacInnes
Elizabeth Barrett & Maurice Emile Newman
Claire Newman & Sidney Valdes Webb
Elizabeth Webb & Charles Loloma
me
Bronwen Edwards
2019-09-24 02:22:22 UTC
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I found another descent:

Ela Beauchamp & Sir Baldwin Wake
Ida Wake & Sir John Stonegrave
Isabella Stonegrave & Simon Pateshull
Sir John Pateshull & Mabella de Grandison
Sybil Pateshull & Roger Beauchamp
Sir Roger Beauchamp & Joanna Clopton
Sir Roger Beauchamp & Mary
Sir John Beauchamp & Edith Stourton
Margaret Beauchamp & Sir Oliver St. John
Sir John St. John & Alice Bradshaw
Eleanor St. John & John La Zouche
Elizabeth La Zouche & Gerald Oge FitzGerald
Katherine FitzGerald & Jenico Preston
Katherine Preston & Thomas Fleming
Katherine Fleming & Piers FitzThomas Butler of Duisk
Sir Edmond Butler of Grange & Anne Butler of Mountgarret
Piers Butler of Barrowmount & Margaret Netterville
Edmond Butler of Killoshulan & Catherine Crispe
Piers Butler of Newtown & Domville Hartpole
Edmond Butler of Newtown & Anne Skellern
Bridget Butler & Theobald "Big Toby" Butler of Drom
William Butler of Drom & Caroline Massy
Caroline Butler & Hugh Massey Barrett
Joseph Barrett & Henrietta Rudyard Clark MacInnes
Elizabeth Barrett & Maurice Emile Newman
Clair Newman & Sidney Valdes Webb
Elizabeth Webb & Charles Sequevya Loloma
me
wjhonson
2019-09-24 16:41:57 UTC
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Post by Bronwen Edwards
Katherine FitzGerald & Jenico Preston
Katherine Preston & Thomas Fleming
Katherine Fleming & Piers FitzThomas Butler of Duisk
Sir Edmond Butler of Grange & Anne Butler of Mountgarret
Piers Butler of Barrowmount & Margaret Netterville
Edmond Butler of Killoshulan & Catherine Crispe
What are your sources for this part of your line, which seems suspect.
Bronwen Edwards
2019-09-26 06:16:44 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
Post by Bronwen Edwards
Katherine FitzGerald & Jenico Preston
Katherine Preston & Thomas Fleming
Katherine Fleming & Piers FitzThomas Butler of Duisk
Sir Edmond Butler of Grange & Anne Butler of Mountgarret
Piers Butler of Barrowmount & Margaret Netterville
Edmond Butler of Killoshulan & Catherine Crispe
What are your sources for this part of your line, which seems suspect.
Just do your research. This is not an esoteric line. Check Genealogics for example or anyone anywhere.
John Higgins
2019-09-26 23:00:21 UTC
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Post by Bronwen Edwards
Post by wjhonson
Post by Bronwen Edwards
Katherine FitzGerald & Jenico Preston
Katherine Preston & Thomas Fleming
Katherine Fleming & Piers FitzThomas Butler of Duisk
Sir Edmond Butler of Grange & Anne Butler of Mountgarret
Piers Butler of Barrowmount & Margaret Netterville
Edmond Butler of Killoshulan & Catherine Crispe
What are your sources for this part of your line, which seems suspect.
Just do your research. This is not an esoteric line. Check Genealogics for example or anyone anywhere.
This particular segment of the descent is indeed in Genealogics. However, no [public] source is given there for these generations.

OTOH the segment can be easily verified through standard sources for Irish gentry - and Will should know what these are. As Bronwen suggests, do your homework, Will, before you post saying that something is "suspect".

Hint: check Stirnet if you have access to it.

Bronwen Edwards
2019-09-26 20:08:03 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
Post by Bronwen Edwards
Katherine FitzGerald & Jenico Preston
Katherine Preston & Thomas Fleming
Katherine Fleming & Piers FitzThomas Butler of Duisk
Sir Edmond Butler of Grange & Anne Butler of Mountgarret
Piers Butler of Barrowmount & Margaret Netterville
Edmond Butler of Killoshulan & Catherine Crispe
What are your sources for this part of your line, which seems suspect.
By the way, what seems suspect to you? Just curious.
j***@gmail.com
2019-02-20 00:17:30 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear Newsgroup ~
Note: This is a revision of a post which I made earlier today. In the earlier post, I inadvertedly confused William de Beauchamp, baron of Bedford, died 1260, with his son of the same name who died in 1262. The two men have been sorted out correctly in the current post. I apologize for any confusion.
+ + + + + + + +
<snip>
Post by c***@gmail.com
Do you descend from Sir William de Beauchamp and his wife, Ida Longespée? If so, I'd very much appreciate seeing your line(s) of descent from this couple down to about 1650. Thanks!
1. William de Beauchamp m. Ida Longespee
2. Ela de Beauchamp m. Baldwin Wake d.1282
3. Ida Wake m. John de Stonegrave d.1295
4. Isabel de Stonegrave b.c.1272 m. Simon de Pateshulle
5. John de Pateshulle b.c.1292 m. Mabel de Grandison
6. Alice de Pateshulleb.c.1325 m. Thomas Wake
7. Anne Wake m. Philip Courtenay
8. John Courtenay m. Joan Champernoun
9. Philip Courtenay b.1404 m Elizabeth Hungerford
10. Elizabeth Courtenay m. James Luttrellb.c.1427
11. Hugh Luttrell m. Margaret Hill
12. Eleanor Luttrell m. Roger Yorke
13. Elizabeth Yorke m. Edmund Percival b.c.1506
14. Christian Percival m. Richard Lowle
15. Percival Lowle b.1571 m. Rebecca
16. Richard Lowle b.1602 m. Margaret
17. Rebeckah Lowle b.1642 m. John Hale
18. John Hale m. Sarah Jacques.
j***@gmail.com
2019-02-20 00:23:49 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear Newsgroup ~
<snip>
Post by c***@gmail.com
Do you descend from Sir William de Beauchamp and his wife, Ida Longespée? If so, I'd very much appreciate seeing your line(s) of descent from this couple down to about 1650. Thanks!
1. William de Beauchamp m. Ida Longespee
2. Maud de Beauchamp m. Roger de Mowbray b.c.1220
3. Roger de Mowbray b.c.1256 m. Rohese de Clare
4. John de Mowbray b.1286 m. Aline de Brewes
5. John de Mowbray b.1310 m. Joan of Lancaster
6. John de Mowbray b.1340 m. Elizabeth de Segrave
7. Eleanor Mowbray b.c.1360 m. John de Welles
8. Eudes Welles b.c.1380 m. Maud de Greystoke
9. Lionel Welles b.c.1406 m. Joan Waterton
10. Margaret Welles b.c.1432 m. Thomas Dymoke
11. Lionel Dymoke b.c.1465 m. Joan Griffith
12. Anne Dymoke m. John Goodrick
13. Lionel Goodrick b.c.1519 m. Winifred Sapcote
14. Anne Goodrick m. Benjamin Bolles
15. Thomas Bolles b.1576 m. Elizabeth Perkins
16. Joseph Bolles b.1609 m. Mary Howell
17. Mary Bolles b.1641 m. Charles Frost
18. Lydia Frost b.1674 m. Benjamin Pierce.

Of course, there are other probably lines for Thomas Bradbury as well as Thomas Dudley.

--Joe Cook
s***@gmail.com
2019-09-22 09:41:23 UTC
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On Friday, February 8, 2019 at 6:55:26 PM UTC-6, ***@gmail.com wrote:

I descend from multiple lines, so I will try and put them up as best as possible.


William=Ida
Roger Mowbray=Maud de Beauchamp
Roger Mowbray=Rohese de Clare
John Mowbray=Aline de Braose
John Mowbray=Joan Plantagenet
Eleanor de Mowbray=Roger de la Warre
Joan de la Warre=Thomas West
Reginald West=Margaret Thorley
Richard West=Katherine Hungerford
Thomas West=Eleanor Copley
George West=Eleanor Rosier Morton
William West=Eleanor le Strange
Thomas West=Anne Knollys
John West=Anne Percy


William=Ida
Roger Mowbray=Maud de Beauchamp
Roger Mowbray=Rohese de Clare
John Mowbray=Aline de Braose
John Mowbray=Joan Plantagenet
John de Mowbray=Elizabeth de Segrave
Eleanor de Mowbray=John Welles
Eudes de Welles=Maud de Greystoke
Lionel Welles=Joan Waterton
Eleanor Welles=Thomas Hoo
Ann Hoo=Roger Copley
Eleanor Copley=Thomas West
Thomas West=Eleanor Copley
George West=Eleanor Rosier Morton
William West=Eleanor le Strange
Thomas West=Anne Knollys
John West=Anne Percy


William=Ida
Roger Mowbray=Maud de Beauchamp
Roger Mowbray=Rohese de Clare
John Mowbray=Aline de Braose
John Mowbray=Joan Plantagenet
John de Mowbray=Elizabeth de Segrave
Thomas de Mowbray=Elizabeth FitzAlan
Isabel Mowbray=James de Berkeley
Maurice de Berkeley=Isabel Mead
Ann de Berkeley=William Denys
Eleanor Denys(Dennis)=William Lygon
Elizabeth Lygon=William Norwood
Richard Norwood=Elizabeth Stuard
William Norwood=Lydia Jordan


William=Ida
Roger Mowbray=Maud de Beauchamp
Roger Mowbray=Rohese de Clare
John Mowbray=Aline de Braose
John Mowbray=Joan Plantagenet
John de Mowbray=Elizabeth de Segrave
Thomas de Mowbray=Elizabeth FitzAlan
Isabel Mowbray=James de Berkeley
Maurice de Berkeley=Isabel Mead
Thomas de Berkeley=Ailianore Constable
Muriel de Berkely=Robert Throckmorton
Katherine Throckmorton=Robert Henry Norwood



William=Ida
Roger Mowbray=Maud de Beauchamp
Roger Mowbray=Rohese de Clare
John Mowbray=Aline de Braose
John Mowbray=Joan Plantagenet
John de Mowbray=Elizabeth de Segrave
Thomas de Mowbray=Elizabeth FitzAlan
Isabel Mowbray=Adam de Newmarch
Margery de Newmarch=Jordan Foliot II
Richard Foliot=Jane de Braose
Margaret Foliot=John de Camoys'
Catherine de Camoys=Hamon de le Strange
John le Strange=Eleanor Walkefare
John le Strange II=Alice de Beaumont
Henry le Strange=Catherine Drury
John le Strange=Anne le Strange
Thomas le Strange
Elizabeth le Strange=William West
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