Discussion:
DENDERMONDE x BUYSSCHEURE (ROZOY)
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antoin...@gmail.com
2020-08-12 15:16:06 UTC
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Dear all,

My children have among their ancestors the couple Wouter 2 van DENDERMONDE, lord of Dendermonde, and Adelisa/Adela van BUYSSCHEURE. This Adelisa would have had as a second husband Gerard 3 van GRIMBERGEN.
Although she married two powerful lords, her own identity is unclear, Warlop doesn't give her parents while many people pretend she was daughter of Renaud de ROZOY/ROSOY and Julienne de RUMIGNY without giving any reference. I found this piece of information only in "Histoire généalogique et héraldique des pairs de France.."Jean B. Courcelles
https://books.google.fr/books?id=ZUsWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5&dq=tenremonde%2Brosoy&hl=en&ei=2RCWTea-AdKz8QP09pQX&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=tenremonde&f=false

I would welcome any information on this misterious Adelisa..
thank you

antoine
wjhonson
2020-08-12 20:17:42 UTC
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https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FLEMISH%20NOBILITY.htm#MathildeDendermondeMGuillaumeIIIBethune
Post by ***@gmail.com
Dear all,
My children have among their ancestors the couple Wouter 2 van DENDERMONDE, lord of Dendermonde, and Adelisa/Adela van BUYSSCHEURE. This Adelisa would have had as a second husband Gerard 3 van GRIMBERGEN.
Although she married two powerful lords, her own identity is unclear, Warlop doesn't give her parents while many people pretend she was daughter of Renaud de ROZOY/ROSOY and Julienne de RUMIGNY without giving any reference. I found this piece of information only in "Histoire généalogique et héraldique des pairs de France.."Jean B. Courcelles
https://books.google.fr/books?id=ZUsWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5&dq=tenremonde%2Brosoy&hl=en&ei=2RCWTea-AdKz8QP09pQX&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=tenremonde&f=false
I would welcome any information on this misterious Adelisa..
thank you
antoine
Peter Stewart
2020-08-13 03:15:42 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FLEMISH%20NOBILITY.htm#MathildeDendermondeMGuillaumeIIIBethune
I don't have a clue what use you think this could be in response to
Antoine's query, but (as almost invariably with Medieval Lands) it is
wrong anyway.

It says:

'ADELISA, daughter of --- (-25 Feb after [1180]) ... The necrology of
Béthune Saint-Barthélemy records the death “V Kal Mar” of “Aelidis
Teneremundæ domina”.'

The necrology entry from Béthune places her death a day earlier than one
from Ninove but accords with one from Dendermonde that adds the year;
however, this indicates 26 February, not 25, since she died in a leap
year (1212 new style).

By the way, the identification by Butkens of her brother Roger as the
seigneur of Rozoy is not only unproven as to family but also highly
implausible as to generation within that family - Roger the eldest son
of Renaud of Rozoy & Chamont-Porcien by Julienne of Rumigny died between
1244 & 1247; his wife Alix of Avesnes had died between 1237 & 1246.
Compare these dates to the occurrences of Adelisa's brother Roger (1201,
1206, 1209 and 1211) and to the deaths of Adelisa's second husband
(1200), of Adelisa herself (1212), and of her younger daughter Margareta
(1238), and the unlikelihood that Roger of Rozoy was brother and uncle
to these ladies should be clear.

Peter Stewart
Denis Beauregard
2020-08-13 15:47:02 UTC
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On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:15:42 +1000, Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
however, this indicates 26 February, not 25, since she died in a leap
year (1212 new style).
"new style" began about 1580 ! Must be old style...


Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
joseph cook
2020-08-13 21:54:15 UTC
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Post by Denis Beauregard
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:15:42 +1000, Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
however, this indicates 26 February, not 25, since she died in a leap
year (1212 new style).
"new style" began about 1580 ! Must be old style...
What is meant when someone says "February 1212 New Style" is that they are talking about the February that precedes April 1212.

That is all,
Joe C
Peter Stewart
2020-08-13 22:13:22 UTC
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Post by joseph cook
Post by Denis Beauregard
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:15:42 +1000, Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
however, this indicates 26 February, not 25, since she died in a leap
year (1212 new style).
"new style" began about 1580 ! Must be old style...
What is meant when someone says "February 1212 New Style" is that they are talking about the February that precedes April 1212.
That is all,
Quite - thank you, Joe.

Denis posted a small brain-fade, which most of us do occasionally and is
not as unusual here as it might be if contributors were not on the
look-out for corrections that might be helpful.

The silly and distasteful blather-posts today from Will Johnson are the
other side of the SGM coin - conceited, arrogant and plain stupid.
Obviously his twisted gratification is the use he found for his
otherwise futile posting of a link to rubbish in Medieval Lands. He
still habitually goes there, and somehow supposes it is worth his while
to let the rest of us know how sloppy and selfish his research is.

Peter Stewart
Denis Beauregard
2020-08-16 23:49:28 UTC
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On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:54:15 -0700 (PDT), joseph cook
Post by joseph cook
Post by Denis Beauregard
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:15:42 +1000, Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
however, this indicates 26 February, not 25, since she died in a leap
year (1212 new style).
"new style" began about 1580 ! Must be old style...
What is meant when someone says "February 1212 New Style" is that they are talking about the February that precedes April 1212.
I though the convention was February 1211/2 or 1211/1212 as I saw that
in many publications.


Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Peter Stewart
2020-08-17 02:44:33 UTC
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Post by Denis Beauregard
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:54:15 -0700 (PDT), joseph cook
Post by joseph cook
Post by Denis Beauregard
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:15:42 +1000, Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
however, this indicates 26 February, not 25, since she died in a leap
year (1212 new style).
"new style" began about 1580 ! Must be old style...
What is meant when someone says "February 1212 New Style" is that they are talking about the February that precedes April 1212.
I though the convention was February 1211/2 or 1211/1212 as I saw that
in many publications.
You are right Denis, though I would call this an alternative rather than
a convention - certainly it is not a rule, and I prefer to avoid it anyway.

First, it is only useful to write "1211/12" if the "/12" part is
understood to mean 1212 new style, and since we are not running short of
ink on SGM I can see no good reason to use a form identifying a leap
year by a compound number when the greater part of this is not evenly
divisible by 4.

Secondly, the form "1211/12" tends to carry an implication that the most
common usage in north-western Europe in the late-middle ages is somehow
a standard that can be universally applied to other times and places.
There are so many variables in medieval calendar years (Christmas,
Easter, Annunciation, Pisan styles for example) that assuming every year
started either on 25 March or 1 January can lead to confusion.

In this case the original record placed Adelisa's death in 1211, and for
the sake of simplicity I recast this into new style - as with any year
that I give without specifying a different style - and said so.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2020-08-17 03:11:52 UTC
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Post by Denis Beauregard
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:54:15 -0700 (PDT), joseph cook
Post by joseph cook
Post by Denis Beauregard
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:15:42 +1000, Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
however, this indicates 26 February, not 25, since she died in a leap
year (1212 new style).
"new style" began about 1580 ! Must be old style...
What is meant when someone says "February 1212 New Style" is that they are talking about the February that precedes April 1212.
I though the convention was February 1211/2 or 1211/1212 as I saw that
in many publications.
By the way, this has nothing to do with the Gregorian calendar revision
in 1582 - "new style" refers to applying 1 January as the first day of a
new year, not to the change of actual dates within the year from the
Julian calendar. Anniversaries of deaths, like saints days and other
aspects of the liturgical calendar, were not retrospectively adjusted to
Gregorian dates so that "new style" in the context of Adelisa's
necrology records only means 1 January-31 December 1212 rather than 25
March 1211-24 March 1212.

Peter Stewart
wjhonson
2020-08-13 17:11:57 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Post by wjhonson
https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FLEMISH%20NOBILITY.htm#MathildeDendermondeMGuillaumeIIIBethune
I don't have a clue what use you think this could be in response to
Antoine's query, but (as almost invariably with Medieval Lands) it is
wrong anyway.
Peter Stewart
By now I hope everyone is aware that I *do not* post in order to be useful.
Sometimes I post to destroy the hopes of the OP.
Sometimes I post simply to place a query in it's context (usually OP's don't bother to offer context at all)
Sometimes I post only to add dates or years to a posting.

I rarely post to help people.
wjhonson
2020-08-13 17:13:56 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by wjhonson
https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FLEMISH%20NOBILITY.htm#MathildeDendermondeMGuillaumeIIIBethune
I don't have a clue what use you think this could be in response to
Antoine's query, but (as almost invariably with Medieval Lands) it is
wrong anyway.
Peter Stewart
By now I hope everyone is aware that I *do not* post in order to be useful.
Sometimes I post to destroy the hopes of the OP.
Sometimes I post simply to place a query in it's context (usually OP's don't bother to offer context at all)
Sometimes I post only to add dates or years to a posting.
I rarely post to help people.
I should have said I rarely post to help the original poster.

My most frequent postings are to destroy OP's fantasy lines.

This helps *other* people, but generally not the OP.
Peter Stewart
2020-08-13 01:03:32 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Dear all,
My children have among their ancestors the couple Wouter 2 van DENDERMONDE, lord of Dendermonde, and Adelisa/Adela van BUYSSCHEURE. This Adelisa would have had as a second husband Gerard 3 van GRIMBERGEN.
Although she married two powerful lords, her own identity is unclear, Warlop doesn't give her parents while many people pretend she was daughter of Renaud de ROZOY/ROSOY and Julienne de RUMIGNY without giving any reference.
This alleged parentage comes from Christophre Butkens in *Trophées tant
sacrés que prophanes de la duché de Brabant* (1637), based on his
arbitrary identification of Adelisa's documented brother Roger of Marck
as Roger of Rosoy. André Du Chesne in *Histoire généalogique de la
maison de Béthune* (1639) called her Adelise de Locres, asserting
without proof that she was heiress of this family.

Warlop qualified Roger as Adelisa's "brother (in-law)", but this
alternative too is unproven. He witnessed several of her charters as her
brother ("frater meus") and the same relationship was stated plainly in
a charter of Philippe I of Namur dated 12 March 1209 (in the extant
original, miscopied as 1204 in the cartulary of Revensberghe abbey:
"nobilis mulier Aelidis de Tenremunde pro remedio anime sue et
predecessorum suorum annuente filio eius Willelmo ... dedit per manum
meam totam decimam quam habebat in parochia de Albeke que fuit domini
Rogeri de March. fratris sui et tenebat in feodo de comite Flandrie in
perpetuum elemosinam ecclesie Sancte Marie de Outhoua", see folio 3r-v
here: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10038474j/f5.image).

This suggests that Roger was a Flemish knight rather than a French
seigneur - in any case, there is not enough evidence to pin down his
identity or Adelisa's family.

Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
2020-08-15 19:59:02 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Dear all,
My children have among their ancestors the couple Wouter 2 van DENDERMONDE, lord of Dendermonde, and Adelisa/Adela van BUYSSCHEURE. This Adelisa would have had as a second husband Gerard 3 van GRIMBERGEN.
Although she married two powerful lords, her own identity is unclear, Warlop doesn't give her parents while many people pretend she was daughter of Renaud de ROZOY/ROSOY and Julienne de RUMIGNY without giving any reference. I found this piece of information only in "Histoire généalogique et héraldique des pairs de France.."Jean B. Courcelles
https://books.google.fr/books?id=ZUsWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5&dq=tenremonde%2Brosoy&hl=en&ei=2RCWTea-AdKz8QP09pQX&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=tenremonde&f=false
I would welcome any information on this misterious Adelisa..
thank you
antoine
Antoine,

I'm not at home therefore I'm not able to answer your question satisfactorily, but I do have some research info on some dates with regard to Adelize van Buischere with me.

She married 1. 1165/1170 Wouter II of Dendermonde, + after 6 april 1176.
She married 2. ca. 1177 Gerard III, lord of Grimbergen, + 1200.
Children:
1. Mathilda of Dendermonde († verm.1224),
x ca. 1185 Willem II van Béthune, † 1214, lord of Dendermonde 1185,
7 children; 5 are mentioned in 1194: Daniel, Robert, Boudewijn, Aleijda and Mathilda.
2. Margareta of Dendermonde (mentioned 1214-1238).
3. [Gerard of Grimbergen, died young, before 1194].
4. Wouter gend. Berthout of Grimbergen, later known (1206 ->) as Gerard IV of Grimbergen, born ca.1180, mentioned firstly <1194.
5. Willem of Grimbergen, lord of Asse.

Hans Vogels
Hans Vogels
2020-08-15 20:05:53 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Post by ***@gmail.com
Dear all,
My children have among their ancestors the couple Wouter 2 van DENDERMONDE, lord of Dendermonde, and Adelisa/Adela van BUYSSCHEURE. This Adelisa would have had as a second husband Gerard 3 van GRIMBERGEN.
Although she married two powerful lords, her own identity is unclear, Warlop doesn't give her parents while many people pretend she was daughter of Renaud de ROZOY/ROSOY and Julienne de RUMIGNY without giving any reference. I found this piece of information only in "Histoire généalogique et héraldique des pairs de France.."Jean B. Courcelles
https://books.google.fr/books?id=ZUsWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5&dq=tenremonde%2Brosoy&hl=en&ei=2RCWTea-AdKz8QP09pQX&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=tenremonde&f=false
I would welcome any information on this misterious Adelisa..
thank you
antoine
Antoine,
I'm not at home therefore I'm not able to answer your question satisfactorily, but I do have some research info on some dates with regard to Adelize van Buischere with me.
She married 1. 1165/1170 Wouter II of Dendermonde, + after 6 april 1176.
She married 2. ca. 1177 Gerard III, lord of Grimbergen, + 1200.
1. Mathilda of Dendermonde († verm.1224),
x ca. 1185 Willem II van Béthune, † 1214, lord of Dendermonde 1185,
7 children; 5 are mentioned in 1194: Daniel, Robert, Boudewijn, Aleijda and Mathilda.
2. Margareta of Dendermonde (mentioned 1214-1238).
3. [Gerard of Grimbergen, died young, before 1194].
4. Wouter gend. Berthout of Grimbergen, later known (1206 ->) as Gerard IV of Grimbergen, born ca.1180, mentioned firstly <1194.
5. Willem of Grimbergen, lord of Asse.
Hans Vogels
Antoine,

I suspect that Adelize is of the family of the lords of Zotteghem.

Hans Vogels
Peter Stewart
2020-08-16 00:18:50 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Post by Hans Vogels
Post by ***@gmail.com
Dear all,
My children have among their ancestors the couple Wouter 2 van DENDERMONDE, lord of Dendermonde, and Adelisa/Adela van BUYSSCHEURE. This Adelisa would have had as a second husband Gerard 3 van GRIMBERGEN.
Although she married two powerful lords, her own identity is unclear, Warlop doesn't give her parents while many people pretend she was daughter of Renaud de ROZOY/ROSOY and Julienne de RUMIGNY without giving any reference. I found this piece of information only in "Histoire généalogique et héraldique des pairs de France.."Jean B. Courcelles
https://books.google.fr/books?id=ZUsWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5&dq=tenremonde%2Brosoy&hl=en&ei=2RCWTea-AdKz8QP09pQX&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=tenremonde&f=false
I would welcome any information on this misterious Adelisa..
thank you
antoine
Antoine,
I'm not at home therefore I'm not able to answer your question satisfactorily, but I do have some research info on some dates with regard to Adelize van Buischere with me.
She married 1. 1165/1170 Wouter II of Dendermonde, + after 6 april 1176.
She married 2. ca. 1177 Gerard III, lord of Grimbergen, + 1200.
1. Mathilda of Dendermonde († verm.1224),
x ca. 1185 Willem II van Béthune, † 1214, lord of Dendermonde 1185,
7 children; 5 are mentioned in 1194: Daniel, Robert, Boudewijn, Aleijda and Mathilda.
2. Margareta of Dendermonde (mentioned 1214-1238).
3. [Gerard of Grimbergen, died young, before 1194].
4. Wouter gend. Berthout of Grimbergen, later known (1206 ->) as Gerard IV of Grimbergen, born ca.1180, mentioned firstly <1194.
5. Willem of Grimbergen, lord of Asse.
Hans Vogels
Antoine,
I suspect that Adelize is of the family of the lords of Zotteghem.
When you reconnect with your notes, I hope you will share your rationale
for this.

In a charter dated July 1210 Adelisa called herself "domina" of
Buysscheure, and this lordship was inherited by her younger son William
who called himself "Willelmus de Grimberg miles dominus de Boiscure" in
charter no. 17 of the Ravensberghe cartulary (linked upthread, folio 3v).

Assuming that Adelisa brought Buysscheure into the Grimbergen family,
perhaps along with the name William, an obvious rough guess would attach
her to the castellans of Saint-Omer - the nearest important noble family
to Buysscheure - possibly as a daughter of William III (died 1170).

Buysscheure is approximately 15 kms north-east of Saint-Omer but much
further to the west from Zottegem (around 130 kms), and ditto from
Dendermonde (ca 150 kms) or Grimbergen (ca 170 kms). It would be
interesting to learn why you think any of these families possessed
Buysscheure if Adelisa's birth family did not.

Peter Stewart
Antoine Barbry
2020-08-16 20:26:26 UTC
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Dear Peter and Hans,

Thank you for your very valuable contributions. I am upset at myself that I didn't look in Butkens and Du Chesne in the first place...
Hans, I haven't found indication that could point to Zotteghem but I would be also interested if you find any reference or indication.
As for the Saint Omer, I haven't read so far any connection with the lords of Buysscheure, but it is however an interesting hypothesis, first because the cadet lines of the Saint Omer are not always well documented (see the difficulties to reconstruct the lines of the lords of Morbecque, or the lords of Peene/Piennes) and also because one wonders why Wouter 2 van Dendermonde, an important lord in Flanders (remember that his great granddaughter, Mathilde de Bethune, married the count of Flanders himself, Guy de Dampierre) would have married a lady from such an insignificant family as Buysscheure...
I'll let you know if I find additional information..
Regards

Antoine Barbry
Peter Stewart
2020-08-16 22:41:46 UTC
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Post by Antoine Barbry
Dear Peter and Hans,
Thank you for your very valuable contributions. I am upset at myself that I didn't look in Butkens and Du Chesne in the first place...
Hans, I haven't found indication that could point to Zotteghem but I would be also interested if you find any reference or indication.
As for the Saint Omer, I haven't read so far any connection with the lords of Buysscheure, but it is however an interesting hypothesis, first because the cadet lines of the Saint Omer are not always well documented (see the difficulties to reconstruct the lines of the lords of Morbecque, or the lords of Peene/Piennes) and also because one wonders why Wouter 2 van Dendermonde, an important lord in Flanders (remember that his great granddaughter, Mathilde de Bethune, married the count of Flanders himself, Guy de Dampierre) would have married a lady from such an insignificant family as Buysscheure...
I'll let you know if I find additional information..
The possessions of Adelisa's brother Roger at Aalbeke and Marke (both
near Kortrijk), documented upthread in her charter for Ravensberghe, add
to the puzzle as these locations are approximately 80 kms east of
Buysscheure.

I can't see what is behind the suggestion by Warlop that Roger may have
been Adelisa's brother-in-law, but if he was her brother as stated this
may be the best lead to find her birth family. The name Roger was not
very frequent in 12th-century Flanders, and as far as I can tell was not
documented at all in the families of Saint-Omer or Zottegem.

Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
2020-09-08 12:26:53 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Post by Hans Vogels
Post by ***@gmail.com
Dear all,
My children have among their ancestors the couple Wouter 2 van DENDERMONDE, lord of Dendermonde, and Adelisa/Adela van BUYSSCHEURE. This Adelisa would have had as a second husband Gerard 3 van GRIMBERGEN.
Although she married two powerful lords, her own identity is unclear, Warlop doesn't give her parents while many people pretend she was daughter of Renaud de ROZOY/ROSOY and Julienne de RUMIGNY without giving any reference. I found this piece of information only in "Histoire généalogique et héraldique des pairs de France.."Jean B. Courcelles
https://books.google.fr/books?id=ZUsWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5&dq=tenremonde%2Brosoy&hl=en&ei=2RCWTea-AdKz8QP09pQX&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=tenremonde&f=false
I would welcome any information on this misterious Adelisa..
thank you
antoine
Antoine,
I'm not at home therefore I'm not able to answer your question satisfactorily, but I do have some research info on some dates with regard to Adelize van Buischere with me.
She married 1. 1165/1170 Wouter II of Dendermonde, + after 6 april 1176.
She married 2. ca. 1177 Gerard III, lord of Grimbergen, + 1200.
1. Mathilda of Dendermonde († verm.1224),
x ca. 1185 Willem II van Béthune, † 1214, lord of Dendermonde 1185,
7 children; 5 are mentioned in 1194: Daniel, Robert, Boudewijn, Aleijda and Mathilda.
2. Margareta of Dendermonde (mentioned 1214-1238).
3. [Gerard of Grimbergen, died young, before 1194].
4. Wouter gend. Berthout of Grimbergen, later known (1206 ->) as Gerard IV of Grimbergen, born ca.1180, mentioned firstly <1194.
5. Willem of Grimbergen, lord of Asse.
Hans Vogels
Antoine,
I suspect that Adelize is of the family of the lords of Zotteghem.
Hans Vogels
This suggestion of mine from memory proved wrong. My notes at home said no such thing though they (Buischere/Grimbergen and Zotteghem) were on the same page so something stuck in my mind.

Hans Vogels
antoin...@gmail.com
2020-09-09 19:22:36 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Post by Hans Vogels
I suspect that Adelize is of the family of the lords of Zotteghem.
Hans Vogels
This suggestion of mine from memory proved wrong. My notes at home said no such thing though they (Buischere/Grimbergen and Zotteghem) were on the same page so something stuck in my mind.
Hans Vogels
Dear Hans,

Thank you very much for not forgetting us:-)
R. Moens persists in considering Adela as a member of the Rozoy family, it is in my plans to write to him in the coming days to know whether he has a specific source. I will keep you (and the group) updated.
regards

antoine

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