Discussion:
C.P. Addition/Correction: Maud de Clare, wife of Robert de Clifford, Knt., 1st Lord Clifford, and Robert de Welle, Knt.
(too old to reply)
Douglas Richardson
2021-03-21 23:36:48 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage 3 (1913): 290–291 (sub Clifford) includes an account of Sir Robert de Clifford, 1st Lord Clifford, who was killed at the famous Battle of Bannockburn 24 June 1314. Sir Robert was an important person in his time, he having served in many important posts, including hereditary Sheriff of Westmorland, Justice in Eyre North of Trent, 1297–1308, Governor of Carlisle and Nottingham Castles, Warden of the Marches of Scotland, 1299, 1308, Marshal of England, 1307, Justice South of Trent, 1307–8, and Guardian of Norham Castle. Nicolson & Burn, History & Antiqs. of the Counties of Westmorland & Cumberland 1 (1777): 276 says of him: “This Robert de Clifford is said to have been the greatest man of all this family, being of a most martial and heroic spirit.”

Regarding his marriage, the following information is provided:

“He married Maud, 2nd and yst da. of Thomas de Clare (2nd son of Richard, Earl of Gloucester and Hertford). by Julian, da. of Sir Maurice FitzMaurice, Lord Justice of Ireland. He died 24 June 1314, aged 39, being slain at the battle of Bannockburn, and was (probably) bur. with his mother at Shap Abbey, Westmorland. Writ for Inq. p.m. 28 July (1314) 8 Edw. II. Will pr. 18 Sept. 1314. His widow married, without license, before 16 December 1315, Robert de Welle [Lord Welle], who died s.p., August 1320; she was found to be in 1320-21, 14 Edw. II, heir to her nephew, Thomas, only son and heir of Richard de Clare [Lord Clare]. She died between 4 March 1326/7 and 24 May 1327, when the writ for her Inq. p m. is dated.” END OF QUOTE.

As can be seen above, no date is provided by Complete Peerage for the marriage of Sir Robert de Clifford and his wife, Maud de Clare. Fortunately this lapse is covered by a record of their marriage found in the Annals of Worcester which reveals that this couple were married 13 November 1295:

Luard, Annales Monastici 4 (Rolls Ser. 36) (1869): 523 (Annals of Worcester sub A.D. 1295 — “Decimo tertio die Novembris [13 November] Robertus de Clifford duxit uxorem filiam Thomæ de Clare neptem comitis Geleberti”).

The above record can be found at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=zN2jX1idIBcC&pg=PA523

As indicated above, Complete Peerage 3 (1913): 290–291 (sub Clifford) indicates that Maud de Clare, widow of Sir Robert de Clifford, married (2nd) “without license, before 16 December 1315, Robert de Welle [Lord Welle], who died s.p., August 1320.” While it is entirely correct that Maud de Clare married (2nd) before 16 December 1315 Sir Robert de Welle (or Well, Welles). Complete Peerage 12(2) (1959): 440, footnote h correctly points out that Maud, widow of Robert de Clifford, married an entirely different Robert de Welles, than Robert de Welle, 2nd Lord Welles. This correction in identification is supported by Complete Peerage 14 (1998): 188 (sub Clifford) which adds Maud’s 2nd husband was living 29 August 1326. However, the same page refers to Maud de Clare’s 2nd husband as Richard de Welle. So further error is introduced into the matter. As for the identity of Maud de Clare’s husband, Sir Robert de Welle, he is alleged to probably have been a younger son of Robert de Welle, Knt. [died 1265], by Isabel, daughter and co-heiress of Adam de Purton (or Periton), Knt. This would make him an uncle of Robert de Welle, 2nd Lord Welles, who died in 1320. While this is possible (if not likely), I know of no direct evidence which proves this parentage for Maud de Clare’s 2nd husband.

Complete Peerage 3 (1913): 290–291 (sub Clifford) tells us that Maud de Clare “was found to be in 1320-21, 14 Edw. II, heir to her nephew, Thomas, only son and heir of Richard de Clare [Lord Clare]. She died between 4 March 1326/7 and 24 May 1327, when the writ for her Inq. p m. is dated.”

My research indicates that Maud de Clare was co-heiress in 1321 to her nephew, Thomas de Clare, by which she inherited Thomond, Inkisty, Knockany, etc. in Ireland, as well as a moiety share of the manor of Tarrant Rushton, Dorset and the Stewardship of Essex. In 1321–2 Robert de Welle (Maud’s 2nd husband) wrote to King Edward II requesting a licence for his wife to appoint attorneys in the business of the division of an inheritance. See National Archives, SC 1/35/35, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C12218345

About 1322 Robert de Welle and Maud his wife petitioned the king requesting that the justices be ordered to go to judgment according to the law and custom of the realm concerning their writ of dower against John de Cromwell and Idoine his wife, as it had been delayed by the forfeiture of Roger de Clifford. See National Archives, SC 8/151/7520, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9209706

Complete Peerage 14 (1998): 188 (sub Clifford) correctly states that Sir Robert de Welle (Maud de Clare’s 2nd husband) was living 29 August 1326, on which date he was empowered to name a day and place to treat for peace with the Scots. See Cal. Paten Rolls, 1324–1327 (1904): 315.

Sir Robert de Welle’s date of death appears to be unknown. He evidently died sometime before Easter term 1328, when his executor, William son of William Lengleys, was sued in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt, as indicated below:

In Easter and Trinity term 1328 John de Ellerker the elder sued William son of William Lengleys, executor of the will of Robert de Well, in the Court of Common Pleas in a Westmorland plea regarding a debt of 8 marks. {References: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/273, image 27d (available at http://‌aalt.law.uh.edu/‌AALT2/‌E3/‌CP40no273/‌bCP40no273dorses/‌IMG_0027.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/274, image 338f (available at http://‌aalt.law.uh.edu/‌AALT2/‌E3/CP40no274/‌aCP40no274fronts/‌IMG_0338.htm)}.

I’ve copied below my current file account of Sir Robert de Clifford, 1st Lord Clifford, and his wife, Maud de Clare, including all new information regarding Maud’s 2nd husband, Sir Robert de Welle.

For interest’s sake, below is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Robert de Clifford, 1st Lord Clifford, and his wife, Maud de Clare:

Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Barnes, Anne Baynton, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Edward Bromfield, Stephen Bull, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, William Crymes, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete, Elizabeth & John Harleston, George Home, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, John West, Hawte Wyatt.

Do you descend from Sir Robert de Clifford and Maud de Clare? If so, I’d very much appreciate seeing your line of descent posted here on the newsgroup.

Douglas Richardson, Historian & Genealogist

+ + + + + + + +

1. ROBERT DE CLIFFORD (or CLYFFORD), Knt., of Appleby, Brougham, and Stainmore, Westmorland, Singleborough (in Great Horwood), Buckinghamshire, Hart, Durham, Essendine, Rutland, Winderton (in Brailes), Warwickshire, Stoke Severn and Tenbury, Worcestershire, etc., hereditary Sheriff of Westmorland, Justice in Eyre North of Trent, 1297–1308, Governor of Carlisle and Nottingham Castles, Warden of the Marches of Scotland, 1299, 1308, Marshal of England, 1307, Justice South of Trent, 1307–8, Guardian of Norham Castle, son and heir, born 29 Sept. 1274 (8 years old in 1282; 18 on 29 Sept. 1292). In 1289 Edmund the king’s brother sued Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester and Hertford, in the Court of Common Pleas, that he render to him Robert de Clyfford, kinsman and heir of Roger de Clyfford the elder, whose custody belonged to him. In 1293 Sir John, son of the duke of Brittany, presented to the church of Maltby, Yorkshire, by reason of the custody of the lands of Robert de Clifford, son and heir of the late dame Isabel de Clifford. Robert had seisin of his inheritance 3 May 1295. He married 13 Nov. 1295 MAUD DE CLARE, daughter of Thomas de Clare, Knt., of Thomond in Connacht, Ireland, by Juliana, daughter of Maurice Fitz Maurice, Knt., Justiciar of Ireland [see BADLESMERE 8 for her ancestry]. They had two sons, Roger [2nd Lord Clifford] and Robert [3rd Lord Clifford], and two daughters, Idoine and Margaret. In 1296 the king gave him four live bucks and eight does to stock his park of Essendine, Rutland. He occurs on the Rutland Lay Subsidy for 1296 at Essendine, Rutland. In 1297 he was co-heir to his great-uncle, Richard Fitz John, Knt., Lord Fitz John. He served in the wars of King Edward I with Scotland. He was summoned to Parliament from 29 Dec. 1299 to 26 Nov. 1313, by writs directed Roberto de Clifford, whereby he is held to have become Lord Clifford. He was present at the Siege of Caerlaverock in 1300. He signed the Barons’ letter to Pope Boniface VIII in 1301 as Robertus de Clifford Castellanus de Appelby. In 1304 he was granted the manor of Hart and the borough of Hartrepool, co. Durham, forfeited by the rebellion of Robert de Brus. He presented to the churches of Winterslow, Wiltshire, 1304, and Maltby, Yorkshire, 1305, 1308. The same year he and John de Cromwell and Idoine his wife presented to the church of Stanford on Soar, Nottinghamshire. In 1306 he was granted the manor of Hart, the borough of Hartlepool, and other property in the bishopric of Durham forfeited by Robert de Brus for the murder of John Comyn. In 1307 the Abbot of Haughmond sued him in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a previous agreement made between Alan de Salop, late Abbot of Haughmond, and Roger de Clifford, grandfather of the said Robert, regarding a mill in Tenbury, Worcestershire. In 1308 his aunt, Idoine de Vipont (wife of John de Cromwell, Knt.) granted him her share of the honour of Appleby, Westmorland, in return for his share of the barony of Staveley, Derbyshire. In 1310 he was granted the manor of Skipton in Craven, Yorkshire by the king. The same year he was granted a weekly market and yearly fair to be held at his manor of Severn Stoke, Worcestershire. He was pardoned by the king in 1310, in consideration of his services in Scotland. He received a pardon 16 October 1313 for participation in the death of Peter de Gavaston, Knt., Earl of Cornwall. SIR ROBERT DE CLIFFORD, 1st Lord Clifford, was killed at the Battle of Bannockburn 24 June 1314, and was buried with his mother at Shap Abbey, Westmorland. He left a will proved 18 Sept. 1314. His widow, Maud, was abducted by John le Irish, Keeper of Barnard Castle, in Nov. 1315, while travelling near Bowes Castle, Durham. A force of some 40 men-at-arms headed by William de Montagu, Knt., was immediately dispatched to her rescue. She married (2nd) without license before 16 Dec. 1315 ROBERT DE WELLE (or WELL, WELLES), Knt., in right of his wife, of Tenbury, Worcestershire, Warden of the Marches of Cumberland and Westmorland, Constable of Pendragon Castle, Warden of Malrestang Forest, probable son of Robert de Welle, Knt., by Isabel, daughter and co-heiress of Adam de Purton (or Periton), Knt. [see WELLES 6 for his probable ancestry]. They had no issue. In 1316 the king entrusted Brough Castle, Westmorland to him, ordering that he maintain 15 men-at-arms fully mailed and mounted and 20 hobelars or light lancers. His wife, Maud, was co-heiress in 1321 to her nephew, Thomas de Clare, by which she inherited Thomond, Inkisty, Knockany, etc. in Ireland, as well as a moiety share of the manor of Tarrant Rushton, Dorset and the Stewardship of Essex. In 1321–2 Robert wrote to King Edward II requesting a licence for his wife to appoint attorneys in the business of the division of an inheritance. About 1322 Robert de Welle and Maud his wife petitioned the king requesting that the justices be ordered to go to judgment according to the law and custom of the realm concerning their writ of dower against John de Cromwell and Idoine his wife, as it had been delayed by the forfeiture of Roger de Clifford. In 1322 Robert was granted the houses late of Roger de Clifford, a rebel, in the parish of St. Dunstan in the West, London. The same year Robert de Welle and Maud his wife, executrix of the will of Robert de Clyfford, sued Ranulph de Dacre and Margaret his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £2000. In 1323 he and Richard de Ayremynne were appointed keepers of the bishopric of Winchester. In 1325 Robert de Welle sued John son of Laurence de Ludelowe and others regarding a trespass [vi et armis] in Tenbury, Worcestershire. The same year Robert de Well, Knt., and Stephen de Abyndon acknowledged that they owed Simon de Swanland a debt of £20; to be levied, in default of payment, of their lands and chattels in co. York. The same year Robert de Well, Knt., acknowledged that he owed Stephen de Abyngdon a debt of £20; to be levied, in default of payment, of his lands and chattels in co. Wilts. He was granted protection in August 1325, he then going beyond seas on the king’s business. On 23 June 1326 the king granted letters of credence to Robert de Welle, Robert de Thorp, and John de Denum, they being sent to Scotland to declare the king’s intention touching certain articles concerning the truce between the king and the men of Scoland. SIR ROBERT DE WELLE was living 29 August 1326, when he was empowered to name a day and place to treat for peace with the Scots. Maud, Lady Clifford, died shortly before 24 May 1327. In Easter and Trinity term 1328 John de Ellerker the elder sued William son of William Lengleys, executor of the will of Robert de Well, in the Court of Common Pleas in a Westmorland plea regarding a debt of 8 marks.

Collins, Supp. to the Four Volumes of the Peerage of England 2 (1750): 402–469 (sub Clifford, Baroness Clifford). Nicolson & Burn, Hist. & Antiqs. of the Counties of Westmorland & Cumberland 1 (1777): 265–292 (“This Robert de Clifford is said to have been the greatest man of all this family, being of a most martial and heroic spirit”). Topographer 3 (1791): 20 (Clare ped.). Whitaker, Hist. & Antiqs. of the Deanery of Craven (1812): 240–242. Clifford, Collectanea Cliffordiana 3rd Pt. (1817): 103–104. Philipps, Institutiones Clericorum in Comitatu Wiltoniae 1 (1825): 5. Nicolas, Siege of Carlaverock (1828): 185–189 (biog. of Robert de Clifford). Gray, Scalacronica (1836): 147. Hodgson, Hist. of Northumberland Part II Vol. III (1840): 26–27 (Veteriponte ped.), 28 (Clifford ped.). Banks, Baronies in Fee 1 (1844): 155. Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 2 (1847): 123–126. Fordyce, Hist. & Antiqs. of the County Palatine of Durham 2 (1857): 238–239. Burke, Gen. Hist. of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited & Extinct Peerages (1866): 120–123 (sub Clare). Hutchins, Hist. & Antiqs. of Dorset 3 (1868): 462–463. Luard, Annales Monastici 4 (Rolls Ser. 36) (1869): 523 (Annals of Worcester sub A.D. 1295 — “Decimo tertio die Novembris [13 November] Robertus de Clifford duxit uxorem filiam Thomæ de Clare neptem comitis Geleberti”). Aveling, Hist. of Roche Abbey (1870): xxi–xxii. White, Hist. of the Battle of Bannockburn (1871): 145–147, 176–178 (biog. of Robert de Clifford). Stubbs, Annales Londonienses (Chrons. of the Reigns of Edward I and Edward II 1) (Rolls Ser. 76) (1882): 231 (“Nomina interfectorum militum ad bellum de Strivelyn de Anglis [Names of the English knights slain at Bannockburn]: Robertus de Clifford baro”). D.N.B. 11 (1887): 70–72 (biog. of Robert de Clifford). Cockburn-Hood, House of Cockburn of that Ilk (1888): 361 (Ewyas-Clifford ped.). Genealogist n.s. 13 (1896): 36–37. Regs. of John de Sandale & Rigaud de Asserio, Bishops of Winchester (Hampshire Rec. Soc. 12) (1897): xxix–xxx, 376, 581, 587. Brown, Yorkshire Inqs. 2 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 23) (1898): 142–143. List of Ancient Corr. of the Chancery & Exchequer (Lists and Indexes 15) (1902): 530; see also Index to Ancient Corr. of the Chancery & Exchequer 1 (Lists and Indexes, Supp. Ser. 15) (1902): 271. C.P.R. 1321–1324 (1904): 210. C.P.R. 1324–1327 (1904): 161, 278, 315. Wrottesley, Peds. from the Plea Rolls (1905): 137–138. C.Ch.R. 3 (1908): 69. VCH Buckingham 2 (1908): 328; 3 (1925): 372–376. Index of Placita de Banco 1327–1328 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 32) (1910): 697. C.F.R. 4 (1913): 43. C.P. 3 (1913): 247, footnote c (sub Clare), 290–291 (sub Clifford); 10 (1945): 461–462; 12(2) (1959): 440, footnote h; 14 (1998): 188. St. John Hope, Heraldry for Craftsmen & Designers (1913): 171 (seal of Robert de Clifford, with arms surrounded by rings in allusion to his mother Isabel [de] Vipont). VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 168–174. VCH Worcester 4 (1924): 68–76, 193. Cal. Chancery Warrants (1927): 328–329. Reynolds, Reg. of Walter Reynolds Bishop of Worcester (Dugdale Soc. 9) (1928): 155. VCH Durham 3 (1928): 254–263. Curwen, Later Recs. Rel. to North Westmorland (1932): 102–103. Harvey et al., Vis. of the North 4 (Surtees Soc. 146) (1932): 17–24 (Lassels ped.: “Robt Lord Clifford = …. d. of Humphrey Bohum”). Gandavo, Reg. Simonis de Gandavo Diocesis Saresbiriensis 2 (Canterbury & York Soc. 41) (1934): 633. Greenfield, Reg. of William Greenfield Lord Archbishop of York 1306–1315 2 (Surtees Soc. 149) (1934): 52. VCH Northampton 4 (1937): 88–94. Thompson, Fasti Parochiales 2 (Pubs. Yorkshire Arch. Soc. 107) (1943): 6–10. Year Books of Edward II 10 (Selden Soc. 63) (1947): 196–208. VCH Warwick 5 (1949): 17–26. Price, Yorkshire Deeds 10 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser. 120) (1955): 162. Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 134: 3–4, 220: 1. Sanders, English Baronies (1960): 103–104. Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln 3(1) (1984): 156 (sub Clare). Brault, Rolls of Arms Edward I 2 (1997): 109 (arms of Robert de Clifford: Checky or and azure, a fess gules). Northern Hist. 38 (2001): 187–195. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 798d (available at http://‌aalt.law.uh.edu/‌E1/‌CP40no78/‌bCP40no78dorses/‌IMG_0798.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/138, image 25f (available at http://‌aalt.law.uh.edu/‌E1/‌CP40no138/‌aCP40no138fronts/‌IMG_0025.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/156, image 57f (available at http://‌aalt.law.uh.edu/‌E1/‌CP40no156/‌aCP40no156fronts/‌IMG_0057.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/163, image 184f (available at http://‌aalt.law.uh.edu/‌E1/‌CP40no163/‌aCP40no163fronts/‌IMG_0184.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/204, image 213f (available at http://‌aalt.law.uh.edu/‌E2/‌CP40no204/‌aCP40no204fronts/‌IMG_0213.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/243, image 64f (available at http://‌aalt.law.uh.edu/‌E2/‌CP40no243/‌aCP40no243fronts/‌IMG_0064.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/257, image 33d (available at http://‌aalt.law.uh.edu/‌E2/‌CP40no257/‌bCP40no257dorses/‌IMG_0033.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/273, image 27d (available at http://‌aalt.law.uh.edu/‌AALT2/‌E3/‌CP40no273/‌bCP40no273dorses/‌IMG_0027.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/274, image 338f (available at http://‌aalt.law.uh.edu/‌AALT2/‌E3/CP40no274/‌aCP40no274fronts/‌IMG_0338.htm). National Archives, SC 1/35/35; SC 8/151/7520 (available at http://‌discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). Rutland Lay Subsidy, Essendine, Rutland, 1296 (available at http://‌www.‌historicalresources.‌myzen.co.uk/‌RUTLS/‌essen.html). York’s Archbishops Registers Revealed (1225–1650), Register 5A f.70 (recto) entry 2; Register 5A f.76 (verso) entry 6 (available at https://‌archbishopsregisters.york.ac.uk/‌home_page/‌index).
Douglas Richardson
2021-03-22 05:26:19 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

I note that Strickland, Sizergh Castle, Westmoreland (1898): 17 states that Sir Robert de Welle and his wife, Maud de Clare, were the parents of one daughter, Cecily (wife of Thomas Stirkeland, Knt.). No reference is given for this statement.

Inasmuch as there was no inquisition following the death of Sir Robert de Welle at the time of his death c.1328, there doesn't seem to be an easy way to verify the truthfulness of this statement.

Elsewhere I see that Roskell includes a biography of Sir Walter Strickland, of Sizergh, Westmorland (died 1407/8). He states that Sir Walter was the "son and heir of Sir Thomas Strickland (c.1290-1376) of Sizergh by Cecily, da. and coh. of Robert Welles (1295-1320) of Hackthorpe, Westmorland, and Isabel (died 1315), da. of Adam Periton of Ellington, Northumberland."

The Roskell biography can be found at the following weblink:

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strickland-sir-walter-14078

Given that Sir Walter Strickland was married c.1366 and a member of Parliament in 1380, a birth of c.1340/45 would seem appropriate for him. If so, it is entirely possible that he was a grandson of Sir Robert de Welle and his wife, Maud de Clare, who were married in 1315.

Whatever the case, Sir Walter's mother, Cecily, is surely not the daughter of Robert de Welle, 2nd Lord Welles, who died childless in 1320, nor is it chronologically possible for her to be the daughter of Robert, 2nd Lord Welles' grandparents, Sir Robert de Welle (died 1265), and his wife, Isabel de Purton (or Periton), as stated by Roskell.

Since Robert de Welle, 2nd Lord Welles, can be ruled out as Cecily's father, as can his grandparents, that leaves us Sir Robert de Welle, husband of Maud de Clare, as Cecily's possible father.

I'm unable to tell if Sir Robert de Welle (husband of Maud de Clare) held the manor of Hackthorpe, Westmorland. I have found, however, that in 1320 Sir Robert acknowledged before the king at Amiens that he owed Andrew de Hartcla a debt of £100; to be levied, in default of payment, of his lands and chattels in co. Westmorland [Reference: Cal. of Close Rolls, 1318–1323 (1895): 318].

This record suggests that Sir Robert de Welle may have owned lands in Westmorland, besides his wife, Maud's dower lands from her Clifford marriage. If so, it may be that he is the Sir Robert de Welle who owned the manor of Hackthorpe, Westmorland as alleged by Roskell and that he is the father of Cecily de Welle, wife of Sir Thomas Strickland (died 1376). This matter needs further research.

Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist
Bronwen Edwards
2021-03-22 05:47:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
I note that Strickland, Sizergh Castle, Westmoreland (1898): 17 states that Sir Robert de Welle and his wife, Maud de Clare, were the parents of one daughter, Cecily (wife of Thomas Stirkeland, Knt.). No reference is given for this statement.
Inasmuch as there was no inquisition following the death of Sir Robert de Welle at the time of his death c.1328, there doesn't seem to be an easy way to verify the truthfulness of this statement.
Elsewhere I see that Roskell includes a biography of Sir Walter Strickland, of Sizergh, Westmorland (died 1407/8). He states that Sir Walter was the "son and heir of Sir Thomas Strickland (c.1290-1376) of Sizergh by Cecily, da. and coh. of Robert Welles (1295-1320) of Hackthorpe, Westmorland, and Isabel (died 1315), da. of Adam Periton of Ellington, Northumberland."
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/strickland-sir-walter-14078
Given that Sir Walter Strickland was married c.1366 and a member of Parliament in 1380, a birth of c.1340/45 would seem appropriate for him. If so, it is entirely possible that he was a grandson of Sir Robert de Welle and his wife, Maud de Clare, who were married in 1315.
Whatever the case, Sir Walter's mother, Cecily, is surely not the daughter of Robert de Welle, 2nd Lord Welles, who died childless in 1320, nor is it chronologically possible for her to be the daughter of Robert, 2nd Lord Welles' grandparents, Sir Robert de Welle (died 1265), and his wife, Isabel de Purton (or Periton), as stated by Roskell.
Since Robert de Welle, 2nd Lord Welles, can be ruled out as Cecily's father, as can his grandparents, that leaves us Sir Robert de Welle, husband of Maud de Clare, as Cecily's possible father.
I'm unable to tell if Sir Robert de Welle (husband of Maud de Clare) held the manor of Hackthorpe, Westmorland. I have found, however, that in 1320 Sir Robert acknowledged before the king at Amiens that he owed Andrew de Hartcla a debt of £100; to be levied, in default of payment, of his lands and chattels in co. Westmorland [Reference: Cal. of Close Rolls, 1318–1323 (1895): 318].
This record suggests that Sir Robert de Welle may have owned lands in Westmorland, besides his wife, Maud's dower lands from her Clifford marriage. If so, it may be that he is the Sir Robert de Welle who owned the manor of Hackthorpe, Westmorland as alleged by Roskell and that he is the father of Cecily de Welle, wife of Sir Thomas Strickland (died 1376). This matter needs further research.
Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist
Bronwen Edwards
2021-03-22 05:38:22 UTC
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On Sunday, March 21, 2021 at 4:36:49 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
This is one of the lines I find most interesting:

Sir Robert de Clifford & Maud de Clare
Robert de Clifford & Isabel de Berkeley
Sir Roger de Clifford & Maud de Beauchamp
Catherine de Clifford & Ralph Greystoke
Maud Greystoke & Eudes de Welles
Sir William de Welles & Anne Barnewall
2 sisters:
Ellen/Helen de Welles & Walter Cheevers Elizabeth de Welles & James Fleming, 7th Lord Slane
Anne Aylmer & Sir Thomas Luttrell George Fleming of Stephanstown & Margaret Butler of Paulstown
Margaret Luttrell & Sir Lucas Netterville James Fleming & Ismay Dillon
John Netterville & Eleanor Gernon Thomas Fleming, 10th Lord Slane & Katherine Preston of Gormanston
Nicholas Netterville, 1st Visc Dowth, & Eleanor Bathe Katherine Fleming & Piers FitzThomas Butler of Duisk
Margaret Netterville & Piers Butler of Barrowmount Sir Edmund Butler, 1st Visc Galmoye, & Anne Butler of Mountgarret
(Piers is the son of Edmund Butler & Anne Butler)
Major Edmund Butler of Killoshulan & Catherine Crispe
Piers Butler of Newtown & Urlingford & Domville Hartpole
Capt. Edmund Butler of Newtown & Barrismore & Anne Skellern
Bridget Butler & Theobald "Big Toby" Butler of Drom
William Butler of Drom & Caroline Massy of Duntrileague (also a line from her sister Amy/Emma)
Caroline Butler & Hugh Massey Barrett (immigrants to Canada)
Joseph Barrett & Henrietta Rudyard Clark MacInnes (immigrants to USA)
Elizabeth Barrett & Maurice Emile Newman
Clair Newman & Sidney Valdes Webb
Elizabeth Webb (my mother)
Bronwen Edwards
2021-03-22 05:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Once again, for the record, I hate this format and how it changes after it's posted. When I typed my post showing descent from Clifford & Clare, it made visual sense. Now even I can't figure out where lines end and what follows what. All I can say is that when it appears that two couples are named on one line, they are following the vertical bits they are part of. After that, I still can't find my socks.
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