Discussion:
Update on John Gifford/ Giffard of Wiveton, Norfolk: His last wife Frances was a probable daughter of Sir John Tracy of Gloucestershire and Stanhoe/ Stanhow, Norfolk
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r***@yahoo.com
2020-06-30 19:19:26 UTC
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I'll attempt a brief summary of my findings on this topic (with thanks to Nat Taylor, who ordered some helpful docs).

Some background:

My many postings on the two ironworking John Giffords, father and son, of Dean Forest, Gloucestershire, and New England, eventually petered out in an attempt to connect them both to John Gifford, gent., who built the brick house or mansion at Wiveton, Norfolk, in 1652/53 (those years, along with the initials "J G F" are carved on the facade of the house, which survives). Specifically I thought that the Norfolk house builder might be identical to "Capt." John Gifford or Giffard, the father, who might be suspected to have abandoned the Gloucestershire ironworks after his (possible) son, John of New England, assumed control of another money-making ironworking project, at Lynn, just north of Boston in New England, ca. 1651.

In addition to the abrupt shut-down of the Dean Forest iron industry (sustainability issues, too many trees were being consumed) around 1650, just prior to the appearance of one John Gifford in New England and another on the seacoast of Norfolk, there was a surviving contemporary document, dated March 1651, stating the buyer of the land at Wiveton, Norfolk, was "John Gifford the younger, of Gloucester, Gent." (see a modern account of Wiveton Hall published in _Country Life_, v. 38, 1915 [pp. 712-13]).

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=umn.31951d00217547q&view=1up&seq=729&q1=%22gifford%20the%20younger%20of%20gloucester%22

While we might expect the Gloucestershire ironmaster to continue identifying as "Capt. John Gifford," at least two brief publications by him were under another name, "John Gifford, Gentleman," which was a title he might have returned to after the temporary military upheavals of the 1640s (he was only "Capt." by virtue of having raised, in middle age, a troop of horse for Parliament).

An inspection of the 1658 (proved 1661) will of John Giffard of Wiveton somewhat dashed my hopes: no son John was mentioned. The will named his son Thomas, to whom the Norfolk properties were to pass, a daughter Frances, apparently under age, and his married daughter Margaret Allen, wife of John Allen. Frances, his widow, was also named. For one of the copies of the will, see ...

Loading Image...

While one child (Margaret) was old enough to be married in 1658 -- hence born, say, by 1635 -- the daughter Frances was under seventeen in 1658. I later discovered that the son Thomas was probably also a minor in the year 1658:

GUIFFARD, Thomas. Adm. pens. at CLARE, Apr. 22, 1672. Of Wiveton, Norfolk. Matric. 1672 (_Alumni Cantabrigienses_, Part 1, vol. 2, p. 213)

https://archive.org/details/pt1alumnicantabr02univuoft/page/212/mode/2up

Assuming age 16 at the start of his university career, Thomas "Guiffard of Wiveton" might have been born around 1655/6 (i.e., he would have been very young at his father's death).

While avoiding any mention of a son John in New England, Nick Poyntz adopted my suggestion linking Capt. John of Dean Forest to the John Gifford who built Wiveton Hall a few years later. His article, "The attack on Lord Chandos: popular politics in Cirencester in 1642," also specifically endorsed my suggestion that Capt. John came to Dean from an earlier career as a government saltpetreman at and around Cirencester, another location within Gloucestershire.

https://mercuriuspoliticus.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/the-attack-on-lord-chandos-final.pdf

Some comments by Nick Poyntz on John Gifford of Cirencester and Dean Forest (? and Wiveton) follow:

"Giffard owned property in Cirencester at this time that was near to the site of the confrontation with Chandos. In the royalist siege of Cirencester in 1643, a house known as ‘the Barton House, then called Giffard’s’ formed part of the garrison’s defensive lines. During the siege, ‘the Barton farme with very much buildings in it, and all the corne, hay, and other goods and cattle of one gentleman’s, which amounted to three thousand pounds and upwards, was burnt to the ground’. Giffard subsequently pressed for compensation of £3,000 for losses in the siege, suggesting the house was his.

...

In the same year as the abortive election [at Cirencester], Giffard leased from Colonel Edward Massey iron works in the Forest of Dean which had been confiscated from the royalist Sir John Wintour. Gifford’s operation seems to have destroyed significant amounts of timber earmarked for shipbuilding. At the end of 1649, Giffard’s former ally Isaac Bromwich reported him to the Council of State, and on 1 January 1650 the Commons ordered that the works be pulled down. Giffard petitioned the Commons for compensation, prompting a short-lived pamphlet exchange between Giffard, Bromwich, and a number of Commons-appointed preservators of the Forest. Giffard’s lobbying was to no avail, leaving his iron works suppressed and relationships with erstwhile friends in tatters.

...

It was the probably the fallout from this incident that prompted Giffard’s decision in the early 1650s to move to Norfolk, where he bought an estate at Wiveton from Edmund Britiffe. In his will, Giffard left this estate to his wife Frances. She seems to have been Frances Poyntz, daughter of Sir John Poyntz by his fourth wife Grissell Roberts, who married a Giffard in Gloucester around 1624. This ties Giffard to Gloucestershire in the 1620s, when a man of the same name was beginning to take on commissions from the Admiralty for extracting saltpetre from Gloucestershire and a number of other counties in the south-west. By 1629, for example, he was in charge of production in Gloucestershire, Somerset, Devon, Cornwall, Worcestershire, Herefordshire and Shropshire. One of the major saltpetre works for the south-west was at Thornbury, five miles north-west of the seat of Sir John Poyntz at Iron Acton. On balance, it seems plausible that the John Giffard who was present in Cirencester in 1642 and the saltpetre man of the 1620s and 1630s were one and the same.

One of the ties between the Gloucestershire man and the Norfolk man was a wife called Frances, speculated by Nick Poyntz to have been Frances Poyntz of a well-known Gloucestershire family.

I was the first one to speculate about a marriage of Capt. John Gifford to Frances Poyntz, something I now think rather unlikely (the source of the confusion lies in the fact that Sir John Poyntz, her father, had an older daughter who, after a first marriage to Peny/ Penny, remarried to a Gifford).

From subsequent research, it seems clear that the wife Frances, surviving widow of John Gifford of Wiveton, was nee Frances Tracy (of another Gloucestershire gentry family).

There is no surviving record for the marriage of John Giffard and Frances Tracy, daughter of Sir John Tracy; the way around this impasse is the second marriage record of Frances (Tracy) Giffard, which is extant. As Nick Poyntz wrote in an email to me, he had found that "[o]n 13 November 1662, a Frances Gifford marries Edmund Day in Blakeney. Blakeney is no more than a mile west of Wiveton. Day was the parish's rector." Nick thought this Frances was the daughter of the testator of 1658, but it turns out it was the mother Frances who was remarrying in 1662.

This is proved by the following lawsuit:

Reference: C 5/28/54
Subjects: Litigation
Short title: Gifford v Bishop of Norwich. Plaintiffs: Thomas Gifford and Frances Day, widow. Defendants:...

Court of Chancery: Six Clerks Office: Pleadings before 1714, Whittington. Short title: Gifford v Bishop of Norwich.

Plaintiffs: Thomas Gifford and Frances Day, widow.

Defendants: Edward [Reynolds] Bishop of Norwich, Robert Jermy, Robert Jermy, Cloudesley Jenkinson. Subject

Held by: The National Archives, Kew - Chancery, the Wardrobe, Royal Household, Exchequer and various commissions

Date: 1674

Reference: C 10/175/65

Subjects: Litigation

In early 2019, Nat Taylor kindly ordered this document from TNA. It concerns property at Wiveton, and specifically mentions Thomas Gifford, "an infant of 16 or 17 years," and his mother and guardian, Frances Day, widow. While it was a bit suprising to find Thomas as young as 16 in 1674 after having matriculated at Cambridge in 1672, it seemed clear this was the same person and family.

So .... Frances Day of 1674 was the remarried widow of John Gifford of Wiveton who had died in late 1658. She remarried in 1662 to Rev. Edmund Day, the rector of the adjoining village.

Fortunately, the second volume of _The Visitation of Norfolk Anno Domini 1664_ (Harleian Society, vol. 86) shows who Frances was before her marriage(s). It does not mention her first marriage to John Gifford, perhaps because it was taken two years after the secpmd marriage to Rev. Edmond Day.

From snippets, I can see that Sir John Tracy and his wife Elizabeth Allington had numerous daughters, including one recorded in 1664 as "Frances [Tracy] mar. .... Day." Possibly the following link will work ...

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Publications_of_the_Harleian_Society/if0KAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=butts

I checked Sir John Tracy's will at one point and found it very illegible, with no mention of his daughter Frances (but someone may wish to verify).

The real "proof" (or perhaps we should say, _almost_ proof) of the connection comes from records of other lawsuits between Frances, both as a Gifford and a Day, her son Thomas, and various children of Sir John Tracy and his wife Elizabeth Allington.

First, I should list the other Tracy daughters I'm able to see in the snippet views of the 1664 Norfolk Visitation. In addition to Frances Day, there are:

--Katherine, mar. Thomas Borrett, clerk
--Elizabeth, mar. .... Britton
--Susanna, mar. John Carnsen [sic; this is really Carnsew, see below]
--Dorothy, mar. 1 Butts Bacon; 2 Francis Rookwood

The most important lawsuit is the following (not seen yet):

Short Title: Allen v. Giffard

Reference: C 8/137/4
Description:

Short title: Allen v Giffard.

Plaintiffs: John Allen and Margaret Allen his wife.

Defendants: Frances Giffard, widow, Thomas Giffard and Frances Giffard [the daughter], Sir John Tracy kt, Dame Elizabeth Tracy his wife, Butts Bacon, Dorothy Bacon his wife, [unknown] Godfry and wife.

Subject: property in Wiveton, Norfolk.

Document type: bill and three answers

Date: 1659

Held by: The National Archives, Kew

Margaret, wife of John Allen, was the daughter mentioned almost as an afterthought at the end of the will of John Gifford of Wiveton. I presume she was only a step-daughter of the widow Frances, and believed Frances and the other Tracys had mis-handled her inheritance.

In fact, Frances Tracy was most likely too young to be the mother of John Gifford's daughter Margaret who married John Allen. Frances' mother, Elizabeth Allington (a Cecil, Neville, and Somerset descendant) had three marriage, with Sir John Tracy as her last husband. Muskett's _Evidences of the Winthrops of Groton, co. Suffolk_ sub Clopton (the family of her second husband) states she "mar. at Horsheath, 3 Oct. 15 Jas. [I], Sir John Tracy, Kt., 3d husb."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Evidences_of_the_Winthrops_of_Groton_Co/7dYKAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=elizabeth+allington+giles+clopton+tracy&pg=PA143&printsec=frontcover

See another source, which gives the Oct. 1617 date, mentioned above, as her second (Clopton) marriage, with the second husband not dying until early 1619:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Visitation_of_England_and_Wales/w-kKAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22palavicini+of+babraham%22&pg=PA17&printsec=frontcover

So the marriage of Elizabeth Allington to Sir John Tracy occurred in late 1617 (or possibly 1619 or after), and Frances Tracy was listed last of the many Tracy children in the 1664 Norfolk Visitation.

Young Thomas Gifford sued his aunt Susan (Tracy) (Eure) Carnsew in 1682 over money matters pertaining to co. Norfolk; so he was still alive at that point (I haven't located a will for Thomas).

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo1.ark:/13960/t4pk0zd98&view=1up&seq=202&q1=carnsew

The proof of identity of Susan Carnsew consists of a number of things, including her identification as "Susanna Carnsen" in the Norfolk Visitation of 1664.

Also important are:

--1. _Notes and Queries_ ser.6, v.5 (1882), p. 49, a note by Arthur Jewers, which shows that John Eure, son of Sir Sampson Eure of Gateley or Yateley Park, Herefordshire, "married, Sept. 26, 1661, Susan, daughter and co-heir of Sir John Tracy, of Stanhow, co. Norfolk ..."

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015020440866&view=1up&seq=85&q1=stanhow

--2. By Feb. 1670/71, John Eure of Gateley [Gatley] Park was dead, and his wife Susan remarried to one Carnsew, detailed below:

Marriage between Carneswe and Eure now held and consummated.

Now Consideration. Indenture of even date, by which Susan Carnsewe releases to Seyntanbin, Anthony Chinoweth and Thomas Carnsewe, lands called Trewoone and Traverna, and payment of £500 by Susan to Seyntabin, Chinoweth and Carnsewe.

Releases all claim to Manor of Leinthall Starkes, Gatley Park and other lands.

[Note most of the lands are Cornish, but "Gatley Park" is also mentioned.]

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/c51f5aea-e795-411a-9138-c82419b6cbcc

--3. Another brief article states the marriage of John Eure, son of Sampson Eure, and Susan Tracy was actually at Stanhow, Norfolk:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Yorkshire_Notes_and_Queries_with_the_Yor/DFT4Ve_050QC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22john%20tracy%22

--4. A Dec. 1670 marriage license exists for "Susan Ewer, widow" and John Carnsew of the Inner Temple, Esq., Bachelor, [aged] 37:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Allegations_for_Marriage_Licences_Issued/DyoEAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22susan+ewer%22+carnsew+1670&pg=PA116&printsec=frontcover

I think it should be clear that the Susan Carnsew sued by Thomas Gifford of Norfolk was his aunt, the sister to Frances (Tracy) (Gifford) Day.

Part of Nick Poyntz's confidence in linking John Gifford of the Gloucestershire Ironworks to the Norfolk man was the apparent marriage into a Gloucestershire family, Poyntz. Even though I no longer believe in the Poyntz marriage, the linkage to another Gloucestershire family (TRACY) could equally help support the identification. John Tracy of Stanhoe/ Stanhow was obviously connected to the Gloucestershire Tracys, and was descended from other Gloucs. families such as Throckmorton and Bruges/ Brydges/ Chandos.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Graphic_Illustrations_with_Historical_an/5P5BAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=stanhoe+%22john+tracy%22&pg=PA50&printsec=frontcover

If John Gifford of New England was a son of the Wiveton man, we need to explain why he was not mentioned in the will of 1658. Gifford of New England was born ca. 1623/4 per several sources which give his age, and so would have been about the same age (or older than) Frances Tracy (his possible step-mother). Perhaps that, and his residence in far-off New England, goes part of the way to explaining why he wasn't in the will of 1658. Perhaps, also, he wasn't a son, but some other agnate relation of the Wiveton man.
r***@yahoo.com
2020-06-30 21:26:04 UTC
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Another bungled rendition of the name of Susan Tracy's second husband is "John Charnson" (see _The Genealogist_ 7 [1891]:204) ...

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112047765638&view=1up&seq=218&q1=charnson
r***@yahoo.com
2020-06-30 21:31:01 UTC
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"Edmond Day, clerke" was holding most of the land at Wiveton, Norfolk, in 1663; no Gifford holdings are mentioned.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044081109191&view=1up&seq=127&q1=%22edmond%20day%22
r***@yahoo.com
2020-07-01 14:25:16 UTC
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I suspect the following London records might be for Margaret Gifford and her husband John Allen.

[St. Dionis Backchurch, London]

1657/8 Feb. 3 Giffard Allin, son of John Allin, Mercht [christened]

1658 June 30 Giffard Allin, son of Mr John Allin, Mercht [buried]

1659 Oct. 20 Elizabeth Allen, dau. of John Allen, Mercht [christened]

1660 Oct. 26 John Allin, son of Mr John Allin, Mercht [christened]

1660/1 Feb. 28 Elizabeth Allin, dau. of Mr John Allin, Merchant [buried]

1662 June 2 Margrett Allin, dau. of Mr John Allin, Mercht [christened]

1662 Oct. 19 Margrett Allyn, dau. of Mr John Allyn, Merchant [buried; ...the following entry is for the burial of Gurdon Saltonstall, "Linendraper in this parish"]

1664 April 11 Thomas Allin, son of Mr John Allin, Mercht [christened]

1664 Nov. 7 Mrs Margrett Allen, wife of Mr John Allen, Merchant [buried]

1666 April 26 Peter Allen, son of Mr John Allen, Mercht [christened]

The last child was apparently by a second wife.

St. Benet Paul's Wharf had a marriage record for ...

1656 Dec. 4 John Allyn and Margaret GODDEN

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000116431671&view=1up&seq=311&q1=godden

I wonder if Godden could be a misreading of Gifford?
joseph cook
2020-07-02 01:08:39 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
I suspect the following London records might be for Margaret Gifford and her husband John Allen.
[St. Dionis Backchurch, London]
1657/8 Feb. 3 Giffard Allin, son of John Allin, Mercht [christened]
1658 June 30 Giffard Allin, son of Mr John Allin, Mercht [buried]
1659 Oct. 20 Elizabeth Allen, dau. of John Allen, Mercht [christened]
1660 Oct. 26 John Allin, son of Mr John Allin, Mercht [christened]
1660/1 Feb. 28 Elizabeth Allin, dau. of Mr John Allin, Merchant [buried]
1662 June 2 Margrett Allin, dau. of Mr John Allin, Mercht [christened]
1662 Oct. 19 Margrett Allyn, dau. of Mr John Allyn, Merchant [buried; ...the following entry is for the burial of Gurdon Saltonstall, "Linendraper in this parish"]
1664 April 11 Thomas Allin, son of Mr John Allin, Mercht [christened]
1664 Nov. 7 Mrs Margrett Allen, wife of Mr John Allen, Merchant [buried]
1666 April 26 Peter Allen, son of Mr John Allen, Mercht [christened]
The last child was apparently by a second wife.
St. Benet Paul's Wharf had a marriage record for ...
1656 Dec. 4 John Allyn and Margaret GODDEN
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000116431671&view=1up&seq=311&q1=godden
I wonder if Godden could be a misreading of Gifford?
I checked a photo of what I believe is the original church book (As opposed to a bishop's transcript. From ancestry.com "London, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812" The page is written in an extremely clear mid 17th century hand: "Margarett Godden". The index you have is correct to what was originally recorded.

--Joe Cook
JBrand
2020-07-02 01:19:56 UTC
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Post by joseph cook
Post by r***@yahoo.com
I suspect the following London records might be for Margaret Gifford and her husband John Allen.
[St. Dionis Backchurch, London]
1657/8 Feb. 3 Giffard Allin, son of John Allin, Mercht [christened]
1658 June 30 Giffard Allin, son of Mr John Allin, Mercht [buried]
1659 Oct. 20 Elizabeth Allen, dau. of John Allen, Mercht [christened]
1660 Oct. 26 John Allin, son of Mr John Allin, Mercht [christened]
1660/1 Feb. 28 Elizabeth Allin, dau. of Mr John Allin, Merchant [buried]
1662 June 2 Margrett Allin, dau. of Mr John Allin, Mercht [christened]
1662 Oct. 19 Margrett Allyn, dau. of Mr John Allyn, Merchant [buried; ...the following entry is for the burial of Gurdon Saltonstall, "Linendraper in this parish"]
1664 April 11 Thomas Allin, son of Mr John Allin, Mercht [christened]
1664 Nov. 7 Mrs Margrett Allen, wife of Mr John Allen, Merchant [buried]
1666 April 26 Peter Allen, son of Mr John Allen, Mercht [christened]
The last child was apparently by a second wife.
St. Benet Paul's Wharf had a marriage record for ...
1656 Dec. 4 John Allyn and Margaret GODDEN
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000116431671&view=1up&seq=311&q1=godden
I wonder if Godden could be a misreading of Gifford?
I checked a photo of what I believe is the original church book (As opposed to a bishop's transcript. From ancestry.com "London, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812" The page is written in an extremely clear mid 17th century hand: "Margarett Godden". The index you have is correct to what was originally recorded.
--Joe Cook
Okay, thanks for checking.

I suppose he could have had a natural daughter called "Margaret Godden" -- although would you give L200 to a natural daughter? Or maybe the dau. was Margaret Giffard, but had a brief first marriage to ___ Godden? Something to look into ...
Johnny Brananas
2020-07-02 20:23:13 UTC
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Post by JBrand
Post by joseph cook
Post by r***@yahoo.com
I suspect the following London records might be for Margaret Gifford and her husband John Allen.
[St. Dionis Backchurch, London]
1657/8 Feb. 3 Giffard Allin, son of John Allin, Mercht [christened]
1658 June 30 Giffard Allin, son of Mr John Allin, Mercht [buried]
1659 Oct. 20 Elizabeth Allen, dau. of John Allen, Mercht [christened]
1660 Oct. 26 John Allin, son of Mr John Allin, Mercht [christened]
1660/1 Feb. 28 Elizabeth Allin, dau. of Mr John Allin, Merchant [buried]
1662 June 2 Margrett Allin, dau. of Mr John Allin, Mercht [christened]
1662 Oct. 19 Margrett Allyn, dau. of Mr John Allyn, Merchant [buried; ...the following entry is for the burial of Gurdon Saltonstall, "Linendraper in this parish"]
1664 April 11 Thomas Allin, son of Mr John Allin, Mercht [christened]
1664 Nov. 7 Mrs Margrett Allen, wife of Mr John Allen, Merchant [buried]
1666 April 26 Peter Allen, son of Mr John Allen, Mercht [christened]
The last child was apparently by a second wife.
St. Benet Paul's Wharf had a marriage record for ...
1656 Dec. 4 John Allyn and Margaret GODDEN
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000116431671&view=1up&seq=311&q1=godden
I wonder if Godden could be a misreading of Gifford?
I checked a photo of what I believe is the original church book (As opposed to a bishop's transcript. From ancestry.com "London, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812" The page is written in an extremely clear mid 17th century hand: "Margarett Godden". The index you have is correct to what was originally recorded.
--Joe Cook
Okay, thanks for checking.
I suppose he could have had a natural daughter called "Margaret Godden" -- although would you give L200 to a natural daughter? Or maybe the dau. was Margaret Giffard, but had a brief first marriage to ___ Godden? Something to look into ...
A little more by Nick Poyntz on John Giffard ...

https://mercuriuspoliticus.wordpress.com/2009/12/19/good-will-hunting/

I re-inspected the 1664 PCC will of Sir John Tracy, which is fairly legible.

Most (all?) of his children were listed in a horrible marginal note in Latin, including, listed last (I think) "ffrances Day vid." Possible that means she was the youngest child. The note must have been made in 1666 or later, as Nick Poyntz said the Rev. Day died 1666.
JBrand
2020-07-03 22:00:39 UTC
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Start of an anhnentafel for Frances Tracy ...

1. Frances Tracy
2. Sir John Tracy, knighted Whitehall 22 April 1618; died ca. 1664 Stanhoe, Norfolk [?]; m., as her 3rd husband, after 12 March 1618/9 [date of death of his wife's 2nd husband]
3. Elizabeth Alington or Allington, born before 12 March 1599/1600 [when mentioned in the will of her step-great-grandfather, Thomas Pledgard, gent.]; d. ca. 1665 [consultation of the Stanhoe register might show these exact death dates; there is a large flagstone in the floor of the central aisle at Stanhoe church showing the Tracy arms at the top, but devoid of any writing]
4. Sir John Tracy, knighted by James I, created "Viscount Tracy of Rathcoole" in 1643; born ca. 1571 Gloucestershire [?] [aged 72 when raised to peerage]; d. in or before 1648 (administration granted on his estates)
5. Anne Shirley, born ca. 1574
6. Sir Giles Alington or Allington, bapt. 18 Sept. 1572 Horsheath, Cambridgeshire; bur. 23 Dec. 1638 Horsheath; m.
7. Lady Dorothy Cecil, bapt. 11 Aug. 1577, St. Martin's, Stamford, Lincs.; bur. 11 Nov. 1613 Horsheath, Cambridgeshire
8. Sir John Tracy of Toddington, Gloucs., M.P., knighted at Bristol, 1574; d. 25 Sept. 1591; m.
9. Anne Throckmorton, daughter of Sir Thomas Throckmorton, of Corse and Tortworth, Gloucs., by Margaret Whittington
10. Sir Thomas Shirley of Isfield and Wiston, Sussex; b. ca. 1542; d. Oct. 1612; m.
11. Anne Kempe, b. after 1543; d. 1622/3, daughter of Sir Thomas Kempe of Olantigh, Kent, by [? Catherine] Cheyney
12. Giles Alington or Allington, of Horsheath, Cambridgeshire; d. 25 Nov. 1573 Horsheath; m.
13. Margaret Spencer, daughter of Sir John Spencer of Althorpe, Northants., by Catherine Kitson
14. Thomas Cecil, Earl of Exeter; m.
15. Lady Dorothy Nevill, daughter of John, 4th Lord Latimer, by Lucy Somerset, daughter of Earl of Worcester
JBrand
2020-07-04 02:24:56 UTC
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A matrilineal line from Eva/ Aoife of Leinster

Eva/ Aoife of Leinster
Isabel de Clare
Maud Marshal
Isabel Bigod
Maud FitzJohn
Isabel de Beauchamp
Maud de Chaworth
Eleanor of Lancaster
Lady Alice FitzAlan
Lady Eleanor de Holand
Joyce de Cherleton
Joan de Tiptoft
Isabel Ingoldesthorpe
Lady Lucy Neville
Elizabeth Browne
Lady Lucy Somerset
Lady Dorothy Nevill
Lady Dorothy Cecil
Elizabeth Alington
Frances Tracy
JBrand
2020-07-04 17:20:05 UTC
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25 September, 1661 Articles of Agreement (with counterpart) F76/II/38

(1) John Eure of Gatley Park, Aymestrey, co., Herefs., son and heir of Sampson Eure, dec.

(2) Sir John Tracy of Stanhowe co., Norfolk, Kn., and Susan Tracy, one of his daughters.

1. Marriage to take place between John Eure and Susan Tracy.

2. £1000 marriage portion to be paid by Tracy to Eure.

3. Eure to make settlement of landsin Aymestrey Leinthall Starkes, Wiggmore, Burington, Elton and Aston co., Herefs., and in Holton, co., Salop.

4. Eure also to purchase lands to value of £500 and to settle same on Susan to augment her jointure.

http://www.traceyclann.com/files/Irish%20Tracey%20Arms.htm
JBrand
2020-07-06 03:11:34 UTC
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Post by JBrand
25 September, 1661 Articles of Agreement (with counterpart) F76/II/38
(1) John Eure of Gatley Park, Aymestrey, co., Herefs., son and heir of Sampson Eure, dec.
(2) Sir John Tracy of Stanhowe co., Norfolk, Kn., and Susan Tracy, one of his daughters.
1. Marriage to take place between John Eure and Susan Tracy.
2. £1000 marriage portion to be paid by Tracy to Eure.
3. Eure to make settlement of landsin Aymestrey Leinthall Starkes, Wiggmore, Burington, Elton and Aston co., Herefs., and in Holton, co., Salop.
4. Eure also to purchase lands to value of £500 and to settle same on Susan to augment her jointure.
http://www.traceyclann.com/files/Irish%20Tracey%20Arms.htm
An earlier article about the Chandos confrontation at Cirencester:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_the_British_Archaeological_As/K0RSAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=cisseter+%22john+giffard%22&pg=PA151&printsec=frontcover
Johnny Brananas
2020-07-06 13:29:40 UTC
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The marriage of Elizabeth Alington and Sir John Tracy must have been after August or Sept. 1619, as she gave birth, probably in late August, to her second husband's posthumous son, William Clopton, who was baptized at Melford, Suffolk, 1 Sept. 1619:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b3898238&view=1up&seq=49&q1=tracy
Johnny Brananas
2020-07-06 19:27:37 UTC
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Presumably, John Allen of London was married to Margaret (? Gifford) by 1654, which would seemingly eliminate the John Allen/Margaret Godden marriage record from relevance:

Reference: MC 632/19/1-7, 797 x 5
Title: Thomas Cowdesley and Clowdiola Jenkinson to John Allen 1654; John Allen to John Gifford declaration of trust 1654 and assignment of mortgage to William Athill 1680; and a declaration of trust William Athill to Anthony Athill. Labelled 'B Manor of Wiveton Co.'.
Date: 1654-1694
Held by: Norfolk Record Office, not available at The National Archives
Language: English
Physical description: 1 bundle of 8 parchments

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/752f9e22-8ddd-4737-bf2a-a9408a9e6ca5

See also:

Reference: MC 632/10/1-5, 797 x 4
Title: Deeds
Description:

Henry Jenkinson to Thomas Clowdisley in trust for Clowdisley Jenkinson, lands in Glandford and Wiveton, 1632; Clowdisley and Grace Jenkinson to Robert Jermy the younger, land in Glandford, Wiveton, Bayfield and Cley-next-the-Sea, 1657; 2 final concords, Robert Jermy the younger plaintiff, and Clowdisley and Grace Jenkinson deforciants, land in Glandford, Wiveton and Bayfield, 1657; and Clowdisley and Grace Jenkinson to Robert Jermy the younger, release to 1657 deed, 1661. With label marked 'A. Jenkinson's'.
Date: 1632-1657
Held by: Norfolk Record Office, not available at The National Archives
Language: English
Physical description: 1 bundle of 5 parchments

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/c5ff1624-9787-410a-9b89-b5e2156a6d13

Some of these names will be familiar from the Frances Day & Thomas Gifford lawsuit of 1674 versus Bishop of Norwich et al, notably Cloudesley Jenkinson (rendered Cloudiola in one place above).
Johnny Brananas
2020-07-07 14:31:19 UTC
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One of the Bodleian manuscripts, in a "[c]ollection of letters and papers relating to the diocese of Norwich," is an undated "[p]etition of Frances Tracy, widow, to the dean and chapter, for lease of a house within the cathedral precincts."

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015079922319&view=1up&seq=278&q1=%22Frances%20Tracy%22

Items on either side are dated 1662, with others close by various dates in the 1660s and 1670s.

Perhaps this is Frances (Tracy) (Gifford) Day, widow, reverting to her higher-status birth name?
Johnny Brananas
2020-07-08 14:45:22 UTC
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I rechecked the copy of the Thomas Gifford-Frances Day suit versus Bishop of Norwich, and noticed that I hadn't quite remembered the statement of age concerning Thomas. What it really says is "an infant under the age of twenty-one years, but of the age of sixteen or seventeen years." I think this is saying, "under twenty-one but over 16/17." Or does anything think is it stating he is actually 16/17 on the dot?

It might be possible he was 16 or 17 at Cambridge matriculation (he did not graduate) in 1672, then between 16-21 (actually 18 or 19) at the time of the suit of 1674.

The following record should perhaps be investigated:

[1675] Sept. 29 Francis Morris, of St Andrew's, Holborn, Lond., Turner, Bachr, abt 24, & Frances Gifford, of the same, Sp[inste]r, abt 21; alleged by Thomas Gifford, of St Andrew's, Holborn, afsd, Pawn-Broker; at St Dunstan's in the East, Lond.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Allegations_for_Marriage_Licences_Issued/w2xKAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=thomas+gifford+broker&pg=PA150&printsec=frontcover

This Thomas, broker, of St. Andrew's Holborn left a will of 1688:

Will of Thomas Gifford, Broker of St. Andrew Holborn, Middlesex

Reference: PROB 11/391/310
Description: Will of Thomas Gifford, Broker of Saint Andrew Holborn, Middlesex
Date: 07 June 1688
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description

As one of my "free downloads" courtesy of TNA, I checked this. He had a wife Elizabeth, son Thomas, and daughters Mary and Esther, to whom he left a few hundred pounds all told. He mentions his cousin William Gifford, but no other relations.

Interestingly, the will was witnessed by "H. Hargrave."

There are a number of records showing John Gifford of New England was a cousin or kinsman of Capt. William Hargrave (i.e., a mariner or ship's captain) of Horsly Down and Bermondsey, Surrey.

See (top of page):

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_New_England_Historical_and_Genealogi/zsYMAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22capt+william+hargrave%22&pg=PA505&printsec=frontcover

It's a bit of a stretch for Thomas Gifford of Wiveton to be a broker in London by late 1675 (as he might be only 19 [? 20] at that time). But, at least, we know that Thomas "Guiffard of Wiveton" did not graduate Cambridge (no such statement in _Alumni Cantabrigienses_).

And I suspect that Thomas Gifford of those 1680s suits in _Bridges Division_ was all the same Norfolk person (the Susan Carnsew suit is a strong indication). One of the suits was against the Grocers of London, showing that he might have been in London area by then.
Johnny Brananas
2020-07-08 17:29:52 UTC
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Baker Library at Harvard has put scans of the Lynn Ironworks papers online.

See
https://colonialnorthamerica.library.harvard.edu/spotlight/cna/catalog?q=exhibit_cna_collection_id_tesim%3A990006028120203941&sort=title_sort+asc
Johnny Brananas
2020-07-16 13:01:36 UTC
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Post by Johnny Brananas
Baker Library at Harvard has put scans of the Lynn Ironworks papers online.
See
https://colonialnorthamerica.library.harvard.edu/spotlight/cna/catalog?q=exhibit_cna_collection_id_tesim%3A990006028120203941&sort=title_sort+asc
Looking through the Lynn Ironworks papers, I see nothing that is a smoking gun as far as the genealogy of the Giffords, etc. There are some interesting documents, however.

A certain Cornelius Vermuyden testified about William Aubrey's strange, missing L600 (Aubrey was Jno. Gifford's counterpart at Boston; he abruptly returned to England and his accounts were thought to be in disarray).

I'm not sure if it's this Cornelius Vermuiden below, who should technically be called "Sir Cornelius," or perhaps a son or other relation:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Agricultural_Biography_etc/a6xfAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vermuiden+cornelius&pg=PA21&printsec=frontcover

There is a paper mentioning Sir Richard Coombs of Hemel Hempstead, an investor in the late Gifford/Fogg concern at a separate location in North Lynn. He is this Sir Richard found in Le Neve's Knights who "dyed very poore":

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Le_Neve_s_Pedigrees_of_the_Knights_Made/uSlqLwSFonoC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22le+neve%22+hemel+dyed&pg=PA127&printsec=frontcover

Robert Wakefield, F.A.S.G., placed John Coombs of Plymouth colony as an uncle of Sir Richard Coombs(see TAG, ca. 2000).

Interestingly, there is a reference to "Capt. Robert Braine" -- almost certainly a slip for "Capt. Robert Bridges." However, a Capt. John Braine was one of the known ironworking cohort with Capt. John Gifford in the Forest of Dean (some of the others were Tho. Pury, Rob. Kyrle, and Griffantius Phillips).

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Royal_Forest/Myt8AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=braine%20gifford
Johnny Brananas
2020-07-17 13:41:13 UTC
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Post by Johnny Brananas
Post by Johnny Brananas
Baker Library at Harvard has put scans of the Lynn Ironworks papers online.
See
https://colonialnorthamerica.library.harvard.edu/spotlight/cna/catalog?q=exhibit_cna_collection_id_tesim%3A990006028120203941&sort=title_sort+asc
Looking through the Lynn Ironworks papers, I see nothing that is a smoking gun as far as the genealogy of the Giffords, etc. There are some interesting documents, however.
A certain Cornelius Vermuyden testified about William Aubrey's strange, missing L600 (Aubrey was Jno. Gifford's counterpart at Boston; he abruptly returned to England and his accounts were thought to be in disarray).
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Agricultural_Biography_etc/a6xfAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vermuiden+cornelius&pg=PA21&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Le_Neve_s_Pedigrees_of_the_Knights_Made/uSlqLwSFonoC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22le+neve%22+hemel+dyed&pg=PA127&printsec=frontcover
Robert Wakefield, F.A.S.G., placed John Coombs of Plymouth colony as an uncle of Sir Richard Coombs(see TAG, ca. 2000).
Interestingly, there is a reference to "Capt. Robert Braine" -- almost certainly a slip for "Capt. Robert Bridges." However, a Capt. John Braine was one of the known ironworking cohort with Capt. John Gifford in the Forest of Dean (some of the others were Tho. Pury, Rob. Kyrle, and Griffantius Phillips).
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Royal_Forest/Myt8AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=braine%20gifford
Robert S. Wakefield's Coombs article is:

"The Probable English Origin of Mr. John1 Coombs of Plymouth Colony," _The American Genealogist_, 71 (1996): 247-50.
Johnny Brananas
2020-07-17 13:54:59 UTC
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Post by Johnny Brananas
Post by Johnny Brananas
Post by Johnny Brananas
Baker Library at Harvard has put scans of the Lynn Ironworks papers online.
See
https://colonialnorthamerica.library.harvard.edu/spotlight/cna/catalog?q=exhibit_cna_collection_id_tesim%3A990006028120203941&sort=title_sort+asc
Looking through the Lynn Ironworks papers, I see nothing that is a smoking gun as far as the genealogy of the Giffords, etc. There are some interesting documents, however.
A certain Cornelius Vermuyden testified about William Aubrey's strange, missing L600 (Aubrey was Jno. Gifford's counterpart at Boston; he abruptly returned to England and his accounts were thought to be in disarray).
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Agricultural_Biography_etc/a6xfAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vermuiden+cornelius&pg=PA21&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Le_Neve_s_Pedigrees_of_the_Knights_Made/uSlqLwSFonoC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22le+neve%22+hemel+dyed&pg=PA127&printsec=frontcover
Robert Wakefield, F.A.S.G., placed John Coombs of Plymouth colony as an uncle of Sir Richard Coombs(see TAG, ca. 2000).
Interestingly, there is a reference to "Capt. Robert Braine" -- almost certainly a slip for "Capt. Robert Bridges." However, a Capt. John Braine was one of the known ironworking cohort with Capt. John Gifford in the Forest of Dean (some of the others were Tho. Pury, Rob. Kyrle, and Griffantius Phillips).
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Royal_Forest/Myt8AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=braine%20gifford
"The Probable English Origin of Mr. John1 Coombs of Plymouth Colony," _The American Genealogist_, 71 (1996): 247-50.
Assuming that John1 Coombs descended from John Pope of Wroxton's middle wife, Elizabeth Brocket/ Brockett, and not Miss Staveley or Miss Wyndham, the other known spouses, this webpage could be helpful on the probable ancestry:

http://brockett.info/britain/england/hertfordshire/hertspre16thc/sirjohni/
wjhonson
2020-07-05 02:27:21 UTC
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Post by JBrand
Start of an anhnentafel for Frances Tracy ...
1. Frances Tracy
2. Sir John Tracy, knighted Whitehall 22 April 1618; died ca. 1664 Stanhoe, Norfolk [?]; m., as her 3rd husband, after 12 March 1618/9 [date of death of his wife's 2nd husband]
3. Elizabeth Alington or Allington, born before 12 March 1599/1600 [when mentioned in the will of her step-great-grandfather, Thomas Pledgard, gent.]; d. ca. 1665 [consultation of the Stanhoe register might show these exact death dates; there is a large flagstone in the floor of the central aisle at Stanhoe church showing the Tracy arms at the top, but devoid of any writing]
4. Sir John Tracy, knighted by James I, created "Viscount Tracy of Rathcoole" in 1643; born ca. 1571 Gloucestershire [?] [aged 72 when raised to peerage]; d. in or before 1648 (administration granted on his estates)
5. Anne Shirley, born ca. 1574
6. Sir Giles Alington or Allington, bapt. 18 Sept. 1572 Horsheath, Cambridgeshire; bur. 23 Dec. 1638 Horsheath; m.
7. Lady Dorothy Cecil, bapt. 11 Aug. 1577, St. Martin's, Stamford, Lincs.; bur. 11 Nov. 1613 Horsheath, Cambridgeshire
8. Sir John Tracy of Toddington, Gloucs., M.P., knighted at Bristol, 1574; d. 25 Sept. 1591; m.
9. Anne Throckmorton, daughter of Sir Thomas Throckmorton, of Corse and Tortworth, Gloucs., by Margaret Whittington
10. Sir Thomas Shirley of Isfield and Wiston, Sussex; b. ca. 1542; d. Oct. 1612; m.
11. Anne Kempe, b. after 1543; d. 1622/3, daughter of Sir Thomas Kempe of Olantigh, Kent, by [? Catherine] Cheyney
12. Giles Alington or Allington, of Horsheath, Cambridgeshire; d. 25 Nov. 1573 Horsheath; m.
13. Margaret Spencer, daughter of Sir John Spencer of Althorpe, Northants., by Catherine Kitson
14. Thomas Cecil, Earl of Exeter; m.
15. Lady Dorothy Nevill, daughter of John, 4th Lord Latimer, by Lucy Somerset, daughter of Earl of Worcester
Elizabeth Alington was born on 25 Apr 1598
Anne Shirley was born on 23 Dec 1573

What is your source for the age of John Tracy when he was raised to the peerage?

Margaret Spencer was buried at Horseheath 4 Apr 1626

Thomas Cecil was born 5 May 1542 St Mary the Great Camb and died 8 Feb 1623 London, he was buried at Westminster Abbey by the side of his first wife

Dorothy Neville was "aet 15" in Jan 1561/2
John Higgins
2020-07-05 05:30:01 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
Post by JBrand
Start of an anhnentafel for Frances Tracy ...
1. Frances Tracy
2. Sir John Tracy, knighted Whitehall 22 April 1618; died ca. 1664 Stanhoe, Norfolk [?]; m., as her 3rd husband, after 12 March 1618/9 [date of death of his wife's 2nd husband]
3. Elizabeth Alington or Allington, born before 12 March 1599/1600 [when mentioned in the will of her step-great-grandfather, Thomas Pledgard, gent.]; d. ca. 1665 [consultation of the Stanhoe register might show these exact death dates; there is a large flagstone in the floor of the central aisle at Stanhoe church showing the Tracy arms at the top, but devoid of any writing]
4. Sir John Tracy, knighted by James I, created "Viscount Tracy of Rathcoole" in 1643; born ca. 1571 Gloucestershire [?] [aged 72 when raised to peerage]; d. in or before 1648 (administration granted on his estates)
5. Anne Shirley, born ca. 1574
6. Sir Giles Alington or Allington, bapt. 18 Sept. 1572 Horsheath, Cambridgeshire; bur. 23 Dec. 1638 Horsheath; m.
7. Lady Dorothy Cecil, bapt. 11 Aug. 1577, St. Martin's, Stamford, Lincs.; bur. 11 Nov. 1613 Horsheath, Cambridgeshire
8. Sir John Tracy of Toddington, Gloucs., M.P., knighted at Bristol, 1574; d. 25 Sept. 1591; m.
9. Anne Throckmorton, daughter of Sir Thomas Throckmorton, of Corse and Tortworth, Gloucs., by Margaret Whittington
10. Sir Thomas Shirley of Isfield and Wiston, Sussex; b. ca. 1542; d. Oct. 1612; m.
11. Anne Kempe, b. after 1543; d. 1622/3, daughter of Sir Thomas Kempe of Olantigh, Kent, by [? Catherine] Cheyney
12. Giles Alington or Allington, of Horsheath, Cambridgeshire; d. 25 Nov. 1573 Horsheath; m.
13. Margaret Spencer, daughter of Sir John Spencer of Althorpe, Northants., by Catherine Kitson
14. Thomas Cecil, Earl of Exeter; m.
15. Lady Dorothy Nevill, daughter of John, 4th Lord Latimer, by Lucy Somerset, daughter of Earl of Worcester
Elizabeth Alington was born on 25 Apr 1598
Anne Shirley was born on 23 Dec 1573
What is your source for the age of John Tracy when he was raised to the peerage?
CP vol. 12 pt. 2 p. 2 says "at the age of about 72". Close enough...
John Higgins
2020-07-05 05:31:39 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
Post by JBrand
Start of an anhnentafel for Frances Tracy ...
1. Frances Tracy
2. Sir John Tracy, knighted Whitehall 22 April 1618; died ca. 1664 Stanhoe, Norfolk [?]; m., as her 3rd husband, after 12 March 1618/9 [date of death of his wife's 2nd husband]
3. Elizabeth Alington or Allington, born before 12 March 1599/1600 [when mentioned in the will of her step-great-grandfather, Thomas Pledgard, gent.]; d. ca. 1665 [consultation of the Stanhoe register might show these exact death dates; there is a large flagstone in the floor of the central aisle at Stanhoe church showing the Tracy arms at the top, but devoid of any writing]
4. Sir John Tracy, knighted by James I, created "Viscount Tracy of Rathcoole" in 1643; born ca. 1571 Gloucestershire [?] [aged 72 when raised to peerage]; d. in or before 1648 (administration granted on his estates)
5. Anne Shirley, born ca. 1574
6. Sir Giles Alington or Allington, bapt. 18 Sept. 1572 Horsheath, Cambridgeshire; bur. 23 Dec. 1638 Horsheath; m.
7. Lady Dorothy Cecil, bapt. 11 Aug. 1577, St. Martin's, Stamford, Lincs.; bur. 11 Nov. 1613 Horsheath, Cambridgeshire
8. Sir John Tracy of Toddington, Gloucs., M.P., knighted at Bristol, 1574; d. 25 Sept. 1591; m.
9. Anne Throckmorton, daughter of Sir Thomas Throckmorton, of Corse and Tortworth, Gloucs., by Margaret Whittington
10. Sir Thomas Shirley of Isfield and Wiston, Sussex; b. ca. 1542; d. Oct. 1612; m.
11. Anne Kempe, b. after 1543; d. 1622/3, daughter of Sir Thomas Kempe of Olantigh, Kent, by [? Catherine] Cheyney
12. Giles Alington or Allington, of Horsheath, Cambridgeshire; d. 25 Nov. 1573 Horsheath; m.
13. Margaret Spencer, daughter of Sir John Spencer of Althorpe, Northants., by Catherine Kitson
14. Thomas Cecil, Earl of Exeter; m.
15. Lady Dorothy Nevill, daughter of John, 4th Lord Latimer, by Lucy Somerset, daughter of Earl of Worcester
Elizabeth Alington was born on 25 Apr 1598
Anne Shirley was born on 23 Dec 1573
What is your source for the age of John Tracy when he was raised to the peerage?
Margaret Spencer was buried at Horseheath 4 Apr 1626
Thomas Cecil was born 5 May 1542 St Mary the Great Camb and died 8 Feb 1623 London, he was buried at Westminster Abbey by the side of his first wife
Dorothy Neville was "aet 15" in Jan 1561/2
Setting aside John Tracy, what are your sources for the other dates you propose?
JBrand
2020-07-05 15:11:59 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
Post by JBrand
Start of an anhnentafel for Frances Tracy ...
1. Frances Tracy
2. Sir John Tracy, knighted Whitehall 22 April 1618; died ca. 1664 Stanhoe, Norfolk [?]; m., as her 3rd husband, after 12 March 1618/9 [date of death of his wife's 2nd husband]
3. Elizabeth Alington or Allington, born before 12 March 1599/1600 [when mentioned in the will of her step-great-grandfather, Thomas Pledgard, gent.]; d. ca. 1665 [consultation of the Stanhoe register might show these exact death dates; there is a large flagstone in the floor of the central aisle at Stanhoe church showing the Tracy arms at the top, but devoid of any writing]
4. Sir John Tracy, knighted by James I, created "Viscount Tracy of Rathcoole" in 1643; born ca. 1571 Gloucestershire [?] [aged 72 when raised to peerage]; d. in or before 1648 (administration granted on his estates)
5. Anne Shirley, born ca. 1574
6. Sir Giles Alington or Allington, bapt. 18 Sept. 1572 Horsheath, Cambridgeshire; bur. 23 Dec. 1638 Horsheath; m.
7. Lady Dorothy Cecil, bapt. 11 Aug. 1577, St. Martin's, Stamford, Lincs.; bur. 11 Nov. 1613 Horsheath, Cambridgeshire
8. Sir John Tracy of Toddington, Gloucs., M.P., knighted at Bristol, 1574; d. 25 Sept. 1591; m.
9. Anne Throckmorton, daughter of Sir Thomas Throckmorton, of Corse and Tortworth, Gloucs., by Margaret Whittington
10. Sir Thomas Shirley of Isfield and Wiston, Sussex; b. ca. 1542; d. Oct. 1612; m.
11. Anne Kempe, b. after 1543; d. 1622/3, daughter of Sir Thomas Kempe of Olantigh, Kent, by [? Catherine] Cheyney
12. Giles Alington or Allington, of Horsheath, Cambridgeshire; d. 25 Nov. 1573 Horsheath; m.
13. Margaret Spencer, daughter of Sir John Spencer of Althorpe, Northants., by Catherine Kitson
14. Thomas Cecil, Earl of Exeter; m.
15. Lady Dorothy Nevill, daughter of John, 4th Lord Latimer, by Lucy Somerset, daughter of Earl of Worcester
Elizabeth Alington was born on 25 Apr 1598
Anne Shirley was born on 23 Dec 1573
What is your source for the age of John Tracy when he was raised to the peerage?
Margaret Spencer was buried at Horseheath 4 Apr 1626
Thomas Cecil was born 5 May 1542 St Mary the Great Camb and died 8 Feb 1623 London, he was buried at Westminster Abbey by the side of his first wife
Dorothy Neville was "aet 15" in Jan 1561/2
I got that age from the great source ... Wikipedia, but it was taken from the potted bios. done of Gloucestershire Members of Parliament:

https://archive.org/stream/cu31924030494953#page/n59/mode/2up

This matches with what John Higgins said, but I see the HOP sketch of him says ten years earlier, "b. ca. 1561."

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/tracy-sir-john-ii-1561-1648

Will, are you still tracking Cecil descendants?
JBrand
2020-07-05 17:35:55 UTC
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Post by JBrand
Post by wjhonson
Post by JBrand
Start of an anhnentafel for Frances Tracy ...
1. Frances Tracy
2. Sir John Tracy, knighted Whitehall 22 April 1618; died ca. 1664 Stanhoe, Norfolk [?]; m., as her 3rd husband, after 12 March 1618/9 [date of death of his wife's 2nd husband]
3. Elizabeth Alington or Allington, born before 12 March 1599/1600 [when mentioned in the will of her step-great-grandfather, Thomas Pledgard, gent.]; d. ca. 1665 [consultation of the Stanhoe register might show these exact death dates; there is a large flagstone in the floor of the central aisle at Stanhoe church showing the Tracy arms at the top, but devoid of any writing]
4. Sir John Tracy, knighted by James I, created "Viscount Tracy of Rathcoole" in 1643; born ca. 1571 Gloucestershire [?] [aged 72 when raised to peerage]; d. in or before 1648 (administration granted on his estates)
5. Anne Shirley, born ca. 1574
6. Sir Giles Alington or Allington, bapt. 18 Sept. 1572 Horsheath, Cambridgeshire; bur. 23 Dec. 1638 Horsheath; m.
7. Lady Dorothy Cecil, bapt. 11 Aug. 1577, St. Martin's, Stamford, Lincs.; bur. 11 Nov. 1613 Horsheath, Cambridgeshire
8. Sir John Tracy of Toddington, Gloucs., M.P., knighted at Bristol, 1574; d. 25 Sept. 1591; m.
9. Anne Throckmorton, daughter of Sir Thomas Throckmorton, of Corse and Tortworth, Gloucs., by Margaret Whittington
10. Sir Thomas Shirley of Isfield and Wiston, Sussex; b. ca. 1542; d. Oct. 1612; m.
11. Anne Kempe, b. after 1543; d. 1622/3, daughter of Sir Thomas Kempe of Olantigh, Kent, by [? Catherine] Cheyney
12. Giles Alington or Allington, of Horsheath, Cambridgeshire; d. 25 Nov. 1573 Horsheath; m.
13. Margaret Spencer, daughter of Sir John Spencer of Althorpe, Northants., by Catherine Kitson
14. Thomas Cecil, Earl of Exeter; m.
15. Lady Dorothy Nevill, daughter of John, 4th Lord Latimer, by Lucy Somerset, daughter of Earl of Worcester
Elizabeth Alington was born on 25 Apr 1598
Anne Shirley was born on 23 Dec 1573
What is your source for the age of John Tracy when he was raised to the peerage?
Margaret Spencer was buried at Horseheath 4 Apr 1626
Thomas Cecil was born 5 May 1542 St Mary the Great Camb and died 8 Feb 1623 London, he was buried at Westminster Abbey by the side of his first wife
Dorothy Neville was "aet 15" in Jan 1561/2
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924030494953#page/n59/mode/2up
This matches with what John Higgins said, but I see the HOP sketch of him says ten years earlier, "b. ca. 1561."
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/tracy-sir-john-ii-1561-1648
Will, are you still tracking Cecil descendants?
The potted bio. of Viscount Tracy of Rathcoole states he was admitted to the Inner Temple in Nov. 1580, so I would think he was certainly born before 1571 (assuming the admission rec. is really for him).
r***@yahoo.com
2020-07-01 18:33:54 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
So the marriage of Elizabeth Allington to Sir John Tracy occurred in late 1617 (or possibly 1619 or after), and Frances Tracy was listed last of the many Tracy children in the 1664 Norfolk Visitation.
Back when I could manipulate snippets more easily, I saw at least three other children of John Tracy and Elizabeth Allington in addition to the five daughters found at the top of the page: another daughter (at least) married to Richard Godfrey [who might be the last party named in the suit of Allen v. Giffard] and (I think) two Tracy sons.
r***@yahoo.com
2020-07-01 18:37:01 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
Back when I could manipulate snippets more easily, I saw at least three other children of John Tracy and Elizabeth Allington in addition to the five daughters found at the top of the page: another daughter (at least) married to Richard Godfrey [who might be the last party named in the suit of Allen v. Giffard] and (I think) two Tracy sons.
This source states the eldest daughter of Sir John Tracy was one Anne, wife of Richard Godfrey the younger of Hindringham.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_of_Norfolk/ftoGAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22richard+godfrey%22+tracy+norfolk&pg=PA140&printsec=frontcover

Sir John Tracy "of Stiffkey" is the same person as of Stanhoe.
r***@yahoo.com
2020-07-01 18:49:19 UTC
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Finally got the snippets to align:

The other three children of Sir John Tracy per 1664 Vis. were:

--Robert Tracy of Stanhow, Ar. 1664
--Anne mar. Rich. Godfrey of Hindringham co. Norf. Ar.
--Alice mar. Edmund Patrick of Snettisham

(cross your fingers ...)
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Publications_of_the_Harleian_Society/if0KAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=godfrey%20hindringham
r***@yahoo.com
2020-07-01 20:49:51 UTC
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There was no Frances yet born to Sir John Tracy as of the time of the 1623 _Gloucestershire Visitation_ (but note that he and Dame Elizabeth are assigned several sons in error--they were really his brothers):

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Publications_of_the_Harleian_Society/hudMAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=sir+jno+tracye&pg=PA167&printsec=frontcover
r***@yahoo.com
2020-07-01 21:24:41 UTC
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Carnsew v. Godfrey would also be "of interest" ...

Reference: C 10/197/25
Description:

Short title: Carnsew v Godfrey.

Plaintiffs: Susannah Carnsew, widow and Elizabeth Britton, widow.

Defendants: Richard Godfrey, Anne Godfrey his wife, Thomas Borrett, Katherine Borrett his wife, Frances Day, widow, Edmund Pattricke and Thomas Pattricke.

Subject: property in Stanhoe, Barwick, North Creake, Docking etc, Norfolk.

Document type: two bills and two answers.

JFP
Date: 1678
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5636014
r***@yahoo.com
2020-07-01 21:30:08 UTC
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As would Godfrey v. Paston, 1674.

Reference: C 10/174/46
Description:

Short title: Godfrey v Paston.

Plaintiffs: Richard Godfrey, Anne Godfrey his wife, Elizabeth Britten, widow, Francis Rookwood, Dorothy Rookwood his wife, Frances Day, widow.

Defendants: Frances Paston, widow and Thomas Cornwallis.

Subject: property in Marches manor, Stanhoe, Barwick etc, Norfolk.

Document type: bill and answer
Date: 1674
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5994286
wjhonson
2020-07-06 00:22:09 UTC
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I think there is an error in claiming that he graduated school or attended school in a particular year.

However here is the citation for him being granted special livery in 1592

https://books.google.com/books?id=UPsUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA185

I think this is more probative of him being born *in* 1571, and that the 1561 is an error.
wjhonson
2020-07-17 14:59:38 UTC
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https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_life_of_Sir_Thomas_Pope/ous5X2HSgusC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA431

This author states that by the third wife there was no issue, and by the first wife there was only one daughter Elizabeth who m Edward Blount
Johnny Brananas
2020-07-17 15:31:32 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_life_of_Sir_Thomas_Pope/ous5X2HSgusC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA431
This author states that by the third wife there was no issue, and by the first wife there was only one daughter Elizabeth who m Edward Blount
Right, ancestors of Blount Pope (? Pope Blount), some knight.

That author provides pretty defined periods for the three marriages of John Pope.
wjhonson
2020-07-17 18:40:53 UTC
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It seems like we have to *correct* the name of the son-in-law Robert Reynesford of Staverton in order to line up with this HOP bio

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1660-1690/member/rainsford-%28raynsford%29-richard-i-1605-80
Johnny Brananas
2020-07-17 19:08:36 UTC
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Right, the first wife of immigrant Edward1 Raynesford's father was another daughter of Jno. Pope & Eliz. Brockett.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_New_England_Historical_and_Genealogi/3Xx3AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=georgina
Johnny Brananas
2020-07-17 19:18:00 UTC
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Post by Johnny Brananas
Right, the first wife of immigrant Edward1 Raynesford's father was another daughter of Jno. Pope & Eliz. Brockett.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_New_England_Historical_and_Genealogi/3Xx3AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=georgina
Here rendered in the "country-bumpkin" version of GEORGIA ...

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Visitations_of_the_County_of_Oxford/f6wKAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=georgia+wroxton+pope&pg=PA152&printsec=frontcover

I defy anyone to prove any Georgias were born in 16th-century England.
wjhonson
2020-07-17 19:01:21 UTC
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Some issue betweeen William Pope and his brother-in-law Danvers

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5730355
wjhonson
2020-07-17 19:26:54 UTC
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The Rainsford family occurs in this cluster more than once

Not only was "Georgia" Pope married to a
Robert /Rainsford/ of Staverton, Northants; esq
bap 7 Feb 1566 Epping, co Essex (Batch C04199-1 wj)
d 1629

but her sister Susannah m 12 Nov 1583 Wroxton, co Oxon bur 1628 Horley Manor (where?)
m to Daniel /Danvers/ of Culworth, co Northant Second son of his father bur 1623/4 Horley Manor

HIS mother was Dorothy /Rainsford/ youngest daughter of William /Rainsford/ of Great Tew by his wife Jane /Osbaldeston/
wjhonson
2020-07-17 19:36:18 UTC
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This might be known, but not to me until now.
I have identified the husband of Georgia Pope as the great-grandson of that Alice Danvers who m John /Raynsford/ of Micheltine (Tewe Magna); Knt

Alice is a Cecil5 and a royal descent, so this gives some valuable new information for my Cecil database
wjhonson
2020-07-17 22:17:58 UTC
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On another of these sons-in-law we actually have a HOP bio

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/spurling-john-1603

There they know that he married "Anne" but do not know who she is

But don't we now know that she was Anne Pope, eldest daughter of John Pope and Elizabeth Brockett?
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