Discussion:
Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.
(too old to reply)
Adrian Channing
2021-06-17 16:51:08 UTC
Permalink
In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297

In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place sometime before June 1302

The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had subsequent marriages.

If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke

(01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
(02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
(03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
(04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
(05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
(06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
(07) Isabel Bigod
(08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
(09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
(10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
(11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er Warwick
(12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
(13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
(14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
(15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke


(01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
(02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(03) Alice d’Angouleme
(04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
(06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
(07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
(08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
(11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
(12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
(13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
(14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
(15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)

Adrian
Peter Stewart
2021-06-18 01:06:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian Channing
In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297
In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place sometime before June 1302
The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had subsequent marriages.
If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
(02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
(03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
(04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
(05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
(06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
(07) Isabel Bigod
(08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
(09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
(10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
(11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er Warwick
(12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
(13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
(14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
(15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
(02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(03) Alice d’Angouleme
(04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
(06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
(07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
(08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
(11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
(12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
(13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
(14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
(15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)
The marriage had taken place before 30 May 1302 according to the first
mention of it in the register linked above, pp 8-9.

CP vol 12 ii p 371 says "He m., Istly, before 11 May 1297, Isabel ..."
and note (i) cites for this *Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
Relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters* vol 1 p 570 where
against this date it says "Dispensation ... to remain in the marriage
they have contracted, they being related in the fourth degree of
kindred; declaring their future offspring legitimate".

However, the entry in the register of Boniface VIII (#1872 dated 11 May
1297) does not say that they are already irrevocably married but only
that they have been betrothed by a contract "per verba de futuro",
although related in the fourth degree, with the consent of prelates and
magnates of England subject to receiving papal license. The status of
future offspring is not mentioned, but implicitly any children of the
couple would be legitimate under the terms of the fourth-degree
dispensation issued on 11 May 1297.

There is no entry in the published registers of Boniface VIII
corresponding to the appointment of the bishop of Winchester to decide
Guy's appeal against the archbishop of Canterbury and Isabella said to
be dated at the Lateran on 7 May 1302, though Boniface was there on that
date issuing other documents so this one may have escaped the medieval
compiler. There is also no evidence in the registers of the outcome of
Guy's appeal, but since he went on to marry Alice de Tosny in
January/February 1310 the decision clearly went against him.

The relationship you have tabulated above through common descent from
William Marshal accounts for consanguinity in the fourth degree, as
dispensed on 11 May 1297, not for the third degree alleged later.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2021-06-18 02:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Adrian Channing
In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de
Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and
Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in
the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297
In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place
sometime before June 1302
The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of
consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had
subsequent marriages.
If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
(02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
(03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
(04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
(05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
(06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
(07) Isabel Bigod
(08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
(09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
(10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
(11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er Warwick
(12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
(13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
(14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
(15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
(02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(03) Alice d’Angouleme
(04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
(06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
(07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
(08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
(11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
(12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
(13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
(14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
(15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)
The marriage had taken place before 30 May 1302 according to the first
mention of it in the register linked above, pp 8-9.
CP vol 12 ii p 371 says "He m., Istly, before 11 May 1297, Isabel ..."
and note (i) cites for this *Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
Relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters* vol 1 p 570 where
against this date it says "Dispensation ... to remain in the marriage
they have contracted, they being related in the fourth degree of
kindred; declaring their future offspring legitimate".
However, the entry in the register of Boniface VIII (#1872 dated 11 May
1297) does not say that they are already irrevocably married but only
that they have been betrothed by a contract "per verba de futuro",
although related in the fourth degree, with the consent of prelates and
magnates of England subject to receiving papal license. The status of
future offspring is not mentioned, but implicitly any children of the
couple would be legitimate under the terms of the fourth-degree
dispensation issued on 11 May 1297.
There is no entry in the published registers of Boniface VIII
corresponding to the appointment of the bishop of Winchester to decide
Guy's appeal against the archbishop of Canterbury and Isabella said to
be dated at the Lateran on 7 May 1302, though Boniface was there on that
date issuing other documents so this one may have escaped the medieval
compiler. There is also no evidence in the registers of the outcome of
Guy's appeal, but since he went on to marry Alice de Tosny in
January/February 1310 the decision clearly went against him.
There is also no corresponding entry in the registers of John of
Pontoise, the bishop of Winchester at the time - no record of the matter
at all.

Peter Stewart
Adrian Channing
2021-06-18 23:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Adrian Channing
In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de
Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and
Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in
the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297
In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place
sometime before June 1302
The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of
consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had
subsequent marriages.
If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William
Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
(02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
(03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
(04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
(05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
(06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
(07) Isabel Bigod
(08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
(09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
(10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
(11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er Warwick
(12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
(13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
(14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
(15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
(02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(03) Alice d’Angouleme
(04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
(06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
(07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
(08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
(11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
(12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
(13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
(14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
(15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)
The marriage had taken place before 30 May 1302 according to the first
mention of it in the register linked above, pp 8-9.
CP vol 12 ii p 371 says "He m., Istly, before 11 May 1297, Isabel ..."
and note (i) cites for this *Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
Relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters* vol 1 p 570 where
against this date it says "Dispensation ... to remain in the marriage
they have contracted, they being related in the fourth degree of
kindred; declaring their future offspring legitimate".
However, the entry in the register of Boniface VIII (#1872 dated 11 May
1297) does not say that they are already irrevocably married but only
that they have been betrothed by a contract "per verba de futuro",
although related in the fourth degree, with the consent of prelates and
magnates of England subject to receiving papal license. The status of
future offspring is not mentioned, but implicitly any children of the
couple would be legitimate under the terms of the fourth-degree
dispensation issued on 11 May 1297.
There is no entry in the published registers of Boniface VIII
corresponding to the appointment of the bishop of Winchester to decide
Guy's appeal against the archbishop of Canterbury and Isabella said to
be dated at the Lateran on 7 May 1302, though Boniface was there on that
date issuing other documents so this one may have escaped the medieval
compiler. There is also no evidence in the registers of the outcome of
Guy's appeal, but since he went on to marry Alice de Tosny in
January/February 1310 the decision clearly went against him.
There is also no corresponding entry in the registers of John of
Pontoise, the bishop of Winchester at the time - no record of the matter
at all.
Peter Stewart
Thanks Peter, for your interesting input. It looks as though what exactly happened was unrecorded or no longer extant.

Adrian
Peter Stewart
2021-06-19 01:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian Channing
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Adrian Channing
In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de
Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and
Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in
the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297
In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place
sometime before June 1302
The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of
consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had
subsequent marriages.
If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William
Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
(02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
(03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
(04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
(05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
(06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
(07) Isabel Bigod
(08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
(09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
(10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
(11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er Warwick
(12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
(13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
(14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
(15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
(02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(03) Alice d’Angouleme
(04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
(06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
(07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
(08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
(11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
(12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
(13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
(14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
(15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)
The marriage had taken place before 30 May 1302 according to the first
mention of it in the register linked above, pp 8-9.
CP vol 12 ii p 371 says "He m., Istly, before 11 May 1297, Isabel ..."
and note (i) cites for this *Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
Relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters* vol 1 p 570 where
against this date it says "Dispensation ... to remain in the marriage
they have contracted, they being related in the fourth degree of
kindred; declaring their future offspring legitimate".
However, the entry in the register of Boniface VIII (#1872 dated 11 May
1297) does not say that they are already irrevocably married but only
that they have been betrothed by a contract "per verba de futuro",
although related in the fourth degree, with the consent of prelates and
magnates of England subject to receiving papal license. The status of
future offspring is not mentioned, but implicitly any children of the
couple would be legitimate under the terms of the fourth-degree
dispensation issued on 11 May 1297.
There is no entry in the published registers of Boniface VIII
corresponding to the appointment of the bishop of Winchester to decide
Guy's appeal against the archbishop of Canterbury and Isabella said to
be dated at the Lateran on 7 May 1302, though Boniface was there on that
date issuing other documents so this one may have escaped the medieval
compiler. There is also no evidence in the registers of the outcome of
Guy's appeal, but since he went on to marry Alice de Tosny in
January/February 1310 the decision clearly went against him.
There is also no corresponding entry in the registers of John of
Pontoise, the bishop of Winchester at the time - no record of the matter
at all.
Peter Stewart
Thanks Peter, for your interesting input. It looks as though what exactly happened was unrecorded or no longer extant.
Thanks to your ancestor table, it looks to me as if Isabella and her
family may have regretted the contract for her to marry Guy and in order
to get out of it and perhaps bamboozled the bishop of Winchester with a
welter of Clare ancestry.

At any rate they had already been permitted to marry with fourth degree
consanguinity, and it appears that the alleged third degree was
fictitious. There doesn't seem to be evidence that Rome was further
involved, apart from the May 1302 intervention by the archbishop of
Canterbury and the papal appointment of the bishop to decide on Guy's
appeal that was not included in Boniface VIII's register. This leaves an
impression that the fix was in, and maybe John of Pontoise was willingly
deceived but not keen to record this in his own register.

Peter Stewart

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