The Williams Family
2004-01-30 19:16:00 UTC
Hello,
I have some concerns with part of this line, see below. It may help to read this post backwards (from Queen Elizabeth
to Li Hu) as that is the order in which I wrote my comments.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
daughter of a certain Abu Hamza or Gregory Artsrouni, son of a certain Vasak Artsrouni who he supposes to be a brother of
Abu Beldj Artsrouni (d. ca. 850) (Toumanoff, pp. 90-91). He provides very little information on any of these people and
it is conceivable that he may have made a mistake but it would require a further examination of the primary evidence to
confirm or deny this.
I would consider the genealogy above Abu Hamza to unproven until further evidence comes to light.
- 943/44). He was born in 879 and d. 943/44. His wife was Mlke, see commentary above (Toumanoff, p. 91).
The _Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium_ (III: 2154) transliterates his name as Xac'ic and says that he was crowned king of
Vaspurakan by the Muslims in opposition to the Bagratid king Smbat I.
Toumanoff gives only a dotted line from him back to Derenik which usually means he is guessing or going on very vague
evidence. Since Khatchik is known to be an Artsrouni I imagine he grafted him on to the place that fit best in the main
Artsrouni family tree.
Hasan.
gives the same filiation (Toumanoff, _Manuel de Genealogie_, pp. 92-93).
From Oshin I, Lord of Lampron, to Elizabeth II of Great Britain is rather well-trodden ground so I have not bothered to
give any specific details on the people in this chart other than in places where there are errors. For the generations
before Oshin I have included more details as the line seems more uncertain.
The generations from Alix of Lampron back to Oshin (or Auschin as in this chart) I, Lord of Lampron, are sound
(Rudt-Collenberg, _R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]).
last issue ended on 1591). They did not marry in 1279 but instead on 18 Jun 1318 (see Rudt-Collenberg, _The Rupenides,
Hethumides & Lusignans_, Chart XI [I]).
Balzo, Duca di Andria, & Sueva Orsini (Thompson & Hansen, "A Medieval Heritage", Nos. 392, 393, 786 & 787).
The incorrect connection between Pierre I and Marguerite is due to a confusion of Pierre I with his grandson & namesake
Pierre II (c.1439-1482) who DID marry Marguerite di Savoia (1439-1483), daughter of Ludovico and Anne above. Note that
this daughter is not given in my old series edition of ES Band II although a daughter Maria who married Pierre II's father
Louis as his second wife is given. Some explanation and confirmation from primary sources would be nice to unravel this
tangle.
See: ES (old series) II: 112; Sturdza, _Dictionnaire_, pp. 616-617; "A Medieval Heritage", Nos. 196-197.
Ancestry of Charles II, King of England" and present no problems.
I have some concerns with part of this line, see below. It may help to read this post backwards (from Queen Elizabeth
to Li Hu) as that is the order in which I wrote my comments.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
----- Original Message -----
From: Leo van de Pas
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
Li Hu
Li Bing, m. Lady Tuku
Emperor T'ang Kao Tsu 618-626 (Li Yuan), m. Tu
Emperor T'ang T'ai Tsung 626-649 (Li Shih-min), m. Wen-te
Emperor T'ang Kao Tsung 649-683, m. Empress Wu 690-705, dt. Wu Shihou by
Lady Yang
Emperor T'ang Jui Tsung 684-690, 710-712, m. 2ndary Consort Tu
Emperor T'ang Hsuan Tsung 712-756, m. Yang Guifei
Emperor Su Tsung (T'ang) 756-762
Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan) 755-772
Sharwin I 772-797
Karim <-- (omitted in some sources) -->
Shahriyar I 797-825
Qarin I 837-867
Abul Melik
Surkhab
Abul-Hamza
At this point Toumanoff diverges from the descent given in this chart. He states that Mlke, wife of Gagik II, was theFrom: Leo van de Pas
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
Li Hu
Li Bing, m. Lady Tuku
Emperor T'ang Kao Tsu 618-626 (Li Yuan), m. Tu
Emperor T'ang T'ai Tsung 626-649 (Li Shih-min), m. Wen-te
Emperor T'ang Kao Tsung 649-683, m. Empress Wu 690-705, dt. Wu Shihou by
Lady Yang
Emperor T'ang Jui Tsung 684-690, 710-712, m. 2ndary Consort Tu
Emperor T'ang Hsuan Tsung 712-756, m. Yang Guifei
Emperor Su Tsung (T'ang) 756-762
Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan) 755-772
Sharwin I 772-797
Karim <-- (omitted in some sources) -->
Shahriyar I 797-825
Qarin I 837-867
Abul Melik
Surkhab
Abul-Hamza
daughter of a certain Abu Hamza or Gregory Artsrouni, son of a certain Vasak Artsrouni who he supposes to be a brother of
Abu Beldj Artsrouni (d. ca. 850) (Toumanoff, pp. 90-91). He provides very little information on any of these people and
it is conceivable that he may have made a mistake but it would require a further examination of the primary evidence to
confirm or deny this.
I would consider the genealogy above Abu Hamza to unproven until further evidence comes to light.
Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin) 908-943/4
Khatchik (note that this is the same name as his probable descendant below) or Gagik II Artsrouni, King of Vaspurakan (908- 943/44). He was born in 879 and d. 943/44. His wife was Mlke, see commentary above (Toumanoff, p. 91).
The _Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium_ (III: 2154) transliterates his name as Xac'ic and says that he was crowned king of
Vaspurakan by the Muslims in opposition to the Bagratid king Smbat I.
Abu as-Sahl Hamazasp III 958-972
Abu Sahl or Hamazasp III, Prince Artsrouni (958/59 - 969). He married Gaday, of uncertain parentage (Toumanoff, p. 91).Derenik
Nothing is known of this Derenik but Toumanoff considers him to definitely be a son of Hamazasp (Toumanoff, p. 91).Katchik I, Pr. T'ornavan 1042
Khatchik I "le Sourd", Prince of Tornavan from an unknown date until his death in battle, 1042 (Toumanoff, p. 92).Toumanoff gives only a dotted line from him back to Derenik which usually means he is guessing or going on very vague
evidence. Since Khatchik is known to be an Artsrouni I imagine he grafted him on to the place that fit best in the main
Artsrouni family tree.
Hasan
Abul Gharib, Gov. Tarsus
Byzantine Governor of Tarsus, ca. 1075 to aft. 1080. (Toumanoff, p. 92). There seems to be no evidence for the forenameAbul Gharib, Gov. Tarsus
Hasan.
daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron), ob. ca. 1110
Given as "N. Ardzouni, d. of Abul'gharib, Governor of Tarsus" by Rudt-Collenberg (_R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]). Toumanoffgives the same filiation (Toumanoff, _Manuel de Genealogie_, pp. 92-93).
From Oshin I, Lord of Lampron, to Elizabeth II of Great Britain is rather well-trodden ground so I have not bothered to
give any specific details on the people in this chart other than in places where there are errors. For the generations
before Oshin I have included more details as the line seems more uncertain.
Hetum II, ob. ca. 1143
Auschin II, 1125-70
Hetum III, 1151-1218
Constantine I, 1220-49
Hetum IV, ob. 1250
Alix m. Balian d'Ibelin
The 1279 marriage date given below actually applies to this marriage (Rudt-Collenberg, _R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]).Auschin II, 1125-70
Hetum III, 1151-1218
Constantine I, 1220-49
Hetum IV, ob. 1250
Alix m. Balian d'Ibelin
The generations from Alix of Lampron back to Oshin (or Auschin as in this chart) I, Lord of Lampron, are sound
(Rudt-Collenberg, _R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]).
Guy d'Ibelin
Alix d'Ibelin m. (1279) Hugh de Lusignan
Hugh & Alix are nos. 1592-1593 of "A Medieval Heritage" and ought to be listed in the next issue of _The Genealogist_ (theAlix d'Ibelin m. (1279) Hugh de Lusignan
last issue ended on 1591). They did not marry in 1279 but instead on 18 Jun 1318 (see Rudt-Collenberg, _The Rupenides,
Hethumides & Lusignans_, Chart XI [I]).
Jacques I m. Helvis of Brunswick
James I de Lusignan m. Charlotte Bourbon
His name was Janus, not James, see Sturdza, _Dictionnaire_, pp. 616-617 & "A Medieval Heritage", No. 398.James I de Lusignan m. Charlotte Bourbon
Anne de Lusignan m. Louis (Savoy)
Pierre I de Luxembourg, Comte de St. Pol (1390-1433) married Margherita del Balzo (1394-1469), daughter of Francesco delBalzo, Duca di Andria, & Sueva Orsini (Thompson & Hansen, "A Medieval Heritage", Nos. 392, 393, 786 & 787).
The incorrect connection between Pierre I and Marguerite is due to a confusion of Pierre I with his grandson & namesake
Pierre II (c.1439-1482) who DID marry Marguerite di Savoia (1439-1483), daughter of Ludovico and Anne above. Note that
this daughter is not given in my old series edition of ES Band II although a daughter Maria who married Pierre II's father
Louis as his second wife is given. Some explanation and confirmation from primary sources would be nice to unravel this
tangle.
See: ES (old series) II: 112; Sturdza, _Dictionnaire_, pp. 616-617; "A Medieval Heritage", Nos. 196-197.
Margaret m. Peter (Luxemburg) 1390-1433
Louis
These two generations should be eliminated. See above.Louis
Peter
Marie m. Francis Bourbon
Antoinette m. Claude, Duke of Guise
Mary m. James V of Scotland
James VI
The generations from Comte Pierre II to James VI & I can be traced in Thompson & Hansen's "A Medieval Heritage: TheMarie m. Francis Bourbon
Antoinette m. Claude, Duke of Guise
Mary m. James V of Scotland
James VI
Ancestry of Charles II, King of England" and present no problems.
Elizabeth m. Frederick V of Bavaria
Sophia m. Ernst Augustus, Elector of Hanover
George I
George II
Frederick
George III
Edward
Victoria
Edward VII
George V
George VI
Elizabeth II
The generations from James VI & I to Queen Elizabeth are obviously correct.Sophia m. Ernst Augustus, Elector of Hanover
George I
George II
Frederick
George III
Edward
Victoria
Edward VII
George V
George VI
Elizabeth II
there might be other lines as well
_
There might be, certainly there are other descents from the Artsrouni and the Lords of Lampron._