Discussion:
Evidences for a possible Plantagenet Descent for Sarah Barfoot, wife of Thomas Wiggin of Dover, NH
(too old to reply)
a***@gmail.com
2019-11-16 02:58:55 UTC
Permalink
So here’s a fun supposition that perhaps someone can help to prove or disprove- What follows is a draft hypothesis, and should not be taken for a confirmed lineage. The incentive for pursuing this came from the Visitation of Suffolk of 1561 (pg. 8) in the preamble to the Blodwell of Thurlow pedigree(a link follows). When a purported pedigree includes both a Bardolph and a Drury, any decent Plantagenet researcher tends to get interested?! Particularly true if that researcher descends from the potentially Royal immigrant who appears to be associated.
As a disclaimer, I’ve already discovered several provable lines of descent for my mother from Percival Lowell (x2), Rose Stoughton, Elizabeth Taylor (md. Robert Tufton Mason), and Elizabeth (Marshall) Lewis- so I really don’t have much to lose by failure here. Even though I grew up as a 3rd generation Ulster-Scot American, I long ago had to accept that Edward “Longshanks” is my ancestor. I’m over it…! My apologies in advance for any errors or bad links-

Proposed lineage:
1) Edward I of England & Eleanor of Castille
2) Joan Plantagenet of Acre & Sir Gilbert de Clare, 7th Earl Gloucester & 6th Earl Hereford
3) Elizabeth de Clare, 11th Lady Clare & Sir Roger Damory, Lord Damory
4) Elizabeth d’Amory & Sir John Bardolf, 3rd Baron of Wormegay, Hertfordshire
5) Sir Edmund Bardolf of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Katherine Pelitot (dau. Sir Philip Pelitot- her 1st husband being Sir Ralph Boteler of Pulreback sharing a son Philip Boteler)
6) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Joan
7) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. & Miss Wentworth (his sister Maud md. Sir George Josselyn)
8) Mary Bardolf & Henry Blodwell (her sister Maud may have married Thomas Hoo)
9) John Blodwell, Gent. & Anne Drurye (dau. Sir Wm. Drury of Besthorpe)
10) Frances Blodwell & Thomas Hildersham, Esq.
11) Winifred Hildersham (m1) Edward Barefoot, Gent. of Lambourne, Essex; (m2) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell
12) Thomas Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Sarah Culverwell (1/2 or perhaps step siblings it seems)
13) John Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Joane
14) Sarah Barfoot & Thomas Wiggin (son of Capt. Thos. Wiggin who settled Dover, NH & Catherine Whiting)
15) Catherine Wiggin & Robert Tufton Mason… and on … and on down to me.

The first 4 generations are firmly established down to Elizabeth d’Amory who wed John Bardolph the 3rd Baron Wormegay, and then the hunt begins…

5) Sir Edmund Bardolf & Katherine Pelitot (Memorial Brasses at Watton Church, Hertfordshire)

https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1121.htm#i33662

I’m not sure what source Brent Reusch used here to determine that the 3rd Lord Wormegay had a son Edmund, but they certainly had a place and time in common…

https://archive.org/details/memorialbrassesi00andr/page/48

Indeed Sir John Bardolph, 3rd Baron Wormegay did hold Watton in his lifetime, and it continued on through a few generations of his heirs until 1508, so it is perhaps not too unreasonable that the Edmund Bardolph who married Katherine Pelitot and is buried at Watton Church is in fact the 3rd Baron Wormegay’s son, or at least a close relation.

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/herts/vol3/pp158-165

From the brasses of Watton church link preceding, we also find on the floor of the south aisle that we have

6) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Joan
Presuming that the 2nd Edmund Bardolph’s missing brass effigy at Watton Church that is mentioned, is a son of, rather than a father of this couple, we may have a link to

7) Edmond Bardolfe, Esq. of Hertfordshire (Visitation of Suffolk 1561 for Blodwell of Thurlow) & Miss Wentworth?

https://books.google.com/books?id=EycAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=Thomas+Hildersham+Frances+Blodwell&source=bl&ots=AVvrtxgOKn&sig=ACfU3U0dTnF2kTzQ2Qhss5dH3AMdOHUPww&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjoku3X-

OzlAhUHvlkKHQmzDOQQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Thomas%20Hildersham%20Frances%20Blodwell&f=false

8) Mary Bardolf & Henry Blodwell (did her sister Maud married Thomas Hoo, thereby revealing perhaps the surname of her mother as Wentworth?)

https://archive.org/details/visitationsofher222732cook/page/n19

https://books.google.com/books?id=NcFCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=Maud+Bardolph+Thomas+Hoo&source=bl&ots=BEjTt4RTVo&sig=ACfU3U3LD3JEmAP2bHNlrzgO6jGoWpyujw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrnPKGzu3lAhUlhOAKHZ3XDns4ChDoATAGegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=Maud%20Bardolph%20Thomas%20Hoo&f=false

9) John Blodwell, Gent. & Anne Drurye

10) Frances Blodwell & Thomas Hildersham, Esq.

https://books.google.com/books?id=NFkMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA294&lpg=PA294&dq=Winifred+Hildersham+Ezekiel+Culverwell&source=bl&ots=x4KtRKY3dv&sig=ACfU3U2IwmfBKYgtKcJCf8eDk7pkY_KCCg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjL2YSo-

OzlAhXGo1kKHQ9mAPUQ6AEwBXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Winifred%20Hildersham%20Ezekiel%20Culverwell&f=false

11) Winifred Hildersham (m1) Edward Barefoot, Gent. of Lambourne, Essex (md. 3 Jan 1581/2 London)

https://archive.org/details/londonmarriageli00fost/page/n67

(m2) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell (md. 20 Oct 1598 London)

https://archive.org/details/allegationsform01londgoog/page/n283

12) Thomas Barfoote, Gent. of Lambourne (bp. 24 Jun 1586 Lambourne, Essex) & Sarah Culverwell (Primary Beneficiary & executrix of her father’s will)

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA2

Wikitree source citation- Will of Ezekiel Culverwell of London. 1631. London Metropolitan Archives and Guildhall Library Manuscripts Section, Clerkenwell, London, England; Reference Number: Ms 9172/40; Will Number: 73.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Culverwell-4#_note-5

13) John Barfoot, Gent. (bp. 17 Apr 1616 Lambourne, Essex, d. 1671 Lambourne, Essex) & Joane

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015008291869&view=1up&seq=344

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA8

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA47

14) Sarah Barfoot (sister of Dep. Gov. /Gov. NH Walter Barfoot)& Thomas Wiggin Jr.

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=4knyCwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PT93.w.3.0.0.0.1

Unviewed possible source: P. Morant’s, The history and antiquities of the county of Essex, Vol 1, pg.172 for Barfoot Pedigree (Anyone have access to it?)

Though I realize that these are not all primary sources and visitations are occasionally exaggerated, I felt as though this potential linage might be worthy of further scrutiny, and thought I’d share the fun.

Any collaborative assistance that anyone may offer to help fill in blanks would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
Richard D. Acheson, Jr.
***@roadrunner.com
Maine, USA
P J Evans
2019-11-16 03:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
So here’s a fun supposition that perhaps someone can help to prove or disprove- What follows is a draft hypothesis, and should not be taken for a confirmed lineage. The incentive for pursuing this came from the Visitation of Suffolk of 1561 (pg. 8) in the preamble to the Blodwell of Thurlow pedigree(a link follows). When a purported pedigree includes both a Bardolph and a Drury, any decent Plantagenet researcher tends to get interested?! Particularly true if that researcher descends from the potentially Royal immigrant who appears to be associated.
As a disclaimer, I’ve already discovered several provable lines of descent for my mother from Percival Lowell (x2), Rose Stoughton, Elizabeth Taylor (md. Robert Tufton Mason), and Elizabeth (Marshall) Lewis- so I really don’t have much to lose by failure here. Even though I grew up as a 3rd generation Ulster-Scot American, I long ago had to accept that Edward “Longshanks” is my ancestor. I’m over it…! My apologies in advance for any errors or bad links-
1) Edward I of England & Eleanor of Castille
2) Joan Plantagenet of Acre & Sir Gilbert de Clare, 7th Earl Gloucester & 6th Earl Hereford
3) Elizabeth de Clare, 11th Lady Clare & Sir Roger Damory, Lord Damory
4) Elizabeth d’Amory & Sir John Bardolf, 3rd Baron of Wormegay, Hertfordshire
5) Sir Edmund Bardolf of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Katherine Pelitot (dau. Sir Philip Pelitot- her 1st husband being Sir Ralph Boteler of Pulreback sharing a son Philip Boteler)
6) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Joan
7) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. & Miss Wentworth (his sister Maud md. Sir George Josselyn)
8) Mary Bardolf & Henry Blodwell (her sister Maud may have married Thomas Hoo)
9) John Blodwell, Gent. & Anne Drurye (dau. Sir Wm. Drury of Besthorpe)
10) Frances Blodwell & Thomas Hildersham, Esq.
11) Winifred Hildersham (m1) Edward Barefoot, Gent. of Lambourne, Essex; (m2) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell
12) Thomas Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Sarah Culverwell (1/2 or perhaps step siblings it seems)
13) John Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Joane
14) Sarah Barfoot & Thomas Wiggin (son of Capt. Thos. Wiggin who settled Dover, NH & Catherine Whiting)
15) Catherine Wiggin & Robert Tufton Mason… and on … and on down to me.
The first 4 generations are firmly established down to Elizabeth d’Amory who wed John Bardolph the 3rd Baron Wormegay, and then the hunt begins…
5) Sir Edmund Bardolf & Katherine Pelitot (Memorial Brasses at Watton Church, Hertfordshire)
https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1121.htm#i33662
I’m not sure what source Brent Reusch used here to determine that the 3rd Lord Wormegay had a son Edmund, but they certainly had a place and time in common…
https://archive.org/details/memorialbrassesi00andr/page/48
Indeed Sir John Bardolph, 3rd Baron Wormegay did hold Watton in his lifetime, and it continued on through a few generations of his heirs until 1508, so it is perhaps not too unreasonable that the Edmund Bardolph who married Katherine Pelitot and is buried at Watton Church is in fact the 3rd Baron Wormegay’s son, or at least a close relation.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/herts/vol3/pp158-165
From the brasses of Watton church link preceding, we also find on the floor of the south aisle that we have
6) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Joan
Presuming that the 2nd Edmund Bardolph’s missing brass effigy at Watton Church that is mentioned, is a son of, rather than a father of this couple, we may have a link to
7) Edmond Bardolfe, Esq. of Hertfordshire (Visitation of Suffolk 1561 for Blodwell of Thurlow) & Miss Wentworth?
https://books.google.com/books?id=EycAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=Thomas+Hildersham+Frances+Blodwell&source=bl&ots=AVvrtxgOKn&sig=ACfU3U0dTnF2kTzQ2Qhss5dH3AMdOHUPww&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjoku3X-
OzlAhUHvlkKHQmzDOQQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Thomas%20Hildersham%20Frances%20Blodwell&f=false
8) Mary Bardolf & Henry Blodwell (did her sister Maud married Thomas Hoo, thereby revealing perhaps the surname of her mother as Wentworth?)
https://archive.org/details/visitationsofher222732cook/page/n19
https://books.google.com/books?id=NcFCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=Maud+Bardolph+Thomas+Hoo&source=bl&ots=BEjTt4RTVo&sig=ACfU3U3LD3JEmAP2bHNlrzgO6jGoWpyujw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrnPKGzu3lAhUlhOAKHZ3XDns4ChDoATAGegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=Maud%20Bardolph%20Thomas%20Hoo&f=false
9) John Blodwell, Gent. & Anne Drurye
10) Frances Blodwell & Thomas Hildersham, Esq.
https://books.google.com/books?id=NFkMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA294&lpg=PA294&dq=Winifred+Hildersham+Ezekiel+Culverwell&source=bl&ots=x4KtRKY3dv&sig=ACfU3U2IwmfBKYgtKcJCf8eDk7pkY_KCCg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjL2YSo-
OzlAhXGo1kKHQ9mAPUQ6AEwBXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Winifred%20Hildersham%20Ezekiel%20Culverwell&f=false
11) Winifred Hildersham (m1) Edward Barefoot, Gent. of Lambourne, Essex (md. 3 Jan 1581/2 London)
https://archive.org/details/londonmarriageli00fost/page/n67
(m2) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell (md. 20 Oct 1598 London)
https://archive.org/details/allegationsform01londgoog/page/n283
12) Thomas Barfoote, Gent. of Lambourne (bp. 24 Jun 1586 Lambourne, Essex) & Sarah Culverwell (Primary Beneficiary & executrix of her father’s will)
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA2
Wikitree source citation- Will of Ezekiel Culverwell of London. 1631. London Metropolitan Archives and Guildhall Library Manuscripts Section, Clerkenwell, London, England; Reference Number: Ms 9172/40; Will Number: 73.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Culverwell-4#_note-5
13) John Barfoot, Gent. (bp. 17 Apr 1616 Lambourne, Essex, d. 1671 Lambourne, Essex) & Joane
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015008291869&view=1up&seq=344
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA8
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA47
14) Sarah Barfoot (sister of Dep. Gov. /Gov. NH Walter Barfoot)& Thomas Wiggin Jr.
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=4knyCwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PT93.w.3.0.0.0.1
Unviewed possible source: P. Morant’s, The history and antiquities of the county of Essex, Vol 1, pg.172 for Barfoot Pedigree (Anyone have access to it?)
Though I realize that these are not all primary sources and visitations are occasionally exaggerated, I felt as though this potential linage might be worthy of further scrutiny, and thought I’d share the fun.
Any collaborative assistance that anyone may offer to help fill in blanks would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Richard D. Acheson, Jr.
Maine, USA
See also:
https://soc.genealogy.medieval.narkive.com/yqjSFhUO/winifred-hildersham-barefoot-culverwell
a***@gmail.com
2019-11-16 05:13:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
So here’s a fun supposition that perhaps someone can help to prove or disprove- What follows is a draft hypothesis, and should not be taken for a confirmed lineage. The incentive for pursuing this came from the Visitation of Suffolk of 1561 (pg. 8) in the preamble to the Blodwell of Thurlow pedigree(a link follows). When a purported pedigree includes both a Bardolph and a Drury, any decent Plantagenet researcher tends to get interested?! Particularly true if that researcher descends from the potentially Royal immigrant who appears to be associated.
As a disclaimer, I’ve already discovered several provable lines of descent for my mother from Percival Lowell (x2), Rose Stoughton, Elizabeth Taylor (md. Robert Tufton Mason), and Elizabeth (Marshall) Lewis- so I really don’t have much to lose by failure here. Even though I grew up as a 3rd generation Ulster-Scot American, I long ago had to accept that Edward “Longshanks” is my ancestor. I’m over it…! My apologies in advance for any errors or bad links-
1) Edward I of England & Eleanor of Castille
2) Joan Plantagenet of Acre & Sir Gilbert de Clare, 7th Earl Gloucester & 6th Earl Hereford
3) Elizabeth de Clare, 11th Lady Clare & Sir Roger Damory, Lord Damory
4) Elizabeth d’Amory & Sir John Bardolf, 3rd Baron of Wormegay, Hertfordshire
5) Sir Edmund Bardolf of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Katherine Pelitot (dau. Sir Philip Pelitot- her 1st husband being Sir Ralph Boteler of Pulreback sharing a son Philip Boteler)
6) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Joan
7) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. & Miss Wentworth (his sister Maud md. Sir George Josselyn)
8) Mary Bardolf & Henry Blodwell (her sister Maud may have married Thomas Hoo)
9) John Blodwell, Gent. & Anne Drurye (dau. Sir Wm. Drury of Besthorpe)
10) Frances Blodwell & Thomas Hildersham, Esq.
11) Winifred Hildersham (m1) Edward Barefoot, Gent. of Lambourne, Essex; (m2) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell
12) Thomas Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Sarah Culverwell (1/2 or perhaps step siblings it seems)
13) John Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Joane
14) Sarah Barfoot & Thomas Wiggin (son of Capt. Thos. Wiggin who settled Dover, NH & Catherine Whiting)
15) Catherine Wiggin & Robert Tufton Mason… and on … and on down to me.
The first 4 generations are firmly established down to Elizabeth d’Amory who wed John Bardolph the 3rd Baron Wormegay, and then the hunt begins…
5) Sir Edmund Bardolf & Katherine Pelitot (Memorial Brasses at Watton Church, Hertfordshire)
https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1121.htm#i33662
I’m not sure what source Brent Reusch used here to determine that the 3rd Lord Wormegay had a son Edmund, but they certainly had a place and time in common…
https://archive.org/details/memorialbrassesi00andr/page/48
Indeed Sir John Bardolph, 3rd Baron Wormegay did hold Watton in his lifetime, and it continued on through a few generations of his heirs until 1508, so it is perhaps not too unreasonable that the Edmund Bardolph who married Katherine Pelitot and is buried at Watton Church is in fact the 3rd Baron Wormegay’s son, or at least a close relation.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/herts/vol3/pp158-165
From the brasses of Watton church link preceding, we also find on the floor of the south aisle that we have
6) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Joan
Presuming that the 2nd Edmund Bardolph’s missing brass effigy at Watton Church that is mentioned, is a son of, rather than a father of this couple, we may have a link to
7) Edmond Bardolfe, Esq. of Hertfordshire (Visitation of Suffolk 1561 for Blodwell of Thurlow) & Miss Wentworth?
https://books.google.com/books?id=EycAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=Thomas+Hildersham+Frances+Blodwell&source=bl&ots=AVvrtxgOKn&sig=ACfU3U0dTnF2kTzQ2Qhss5dH3AMdOHUPww&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjoku3X-
OzlAhUHvlkKHQmzDOQQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Thomas%20Hildersham%20Frances%20Blodwell&f=false
8) Mary Bardolf & Henry Blodwell (did her sister Maud married Thomas Hoo, thereby revealing perhaps the surname of her mother as Wentworth?)
https://archive.org/details/visitationsofher222732cook/page/n19
https://books.google.com/books?id=NcFCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=Maud+Bardolph+Thomas+Hoo&source=bl&ots=BEjTt4RTVo&sig=ACfU3U3LD3JEmAP2bHNlrzgO6jGoWpyujw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrnPKGzu3lAhUlhOAKHZ3XDns4ChDoATAGegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=Maud%20Bardolph%20Thomas%20Hoo&f=false
9) John Blodwell, Gent. & Anne Drurye
10) Frances Blodwell & Thomas Hildersham, Esq.
https://books.google.com/books?id=NFkMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA294&lpg=PA294&dq=Winifred+Hildersham+Ezekiel+Culverwell&source=bl&ots=x4KtRKY3dv&sig=ACfU3U2IwmfBKYgtKcJCf8eDk7pkY_KCCg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjL2YSo-
OzlAhXGo1kKHQ9mAPUQ6AEwBXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Winifred%20Hildersham%20Ezekiel%20Culverwell&f=false
11) Winifred Hildersham (m1) Edward Barefoot, Gent. of Lambourne, Essex (md. 3 Jan 1581/2 London)
https://archive.org/details/londonmarriageli00fost/page/n67
(m2) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell (md. 20 Oct 1598 London)
https://archive.org/details/allegationsform01londgoog/page/n283
12) Thomas Barfoote, Gent. of Lambourne (bp. 24 Jun 1586 Lambourne, Essex) & Sarah Culverwell (Primary Beneficiary & executrix of her father’s will)
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA2
Wikitree source citation- Will of Ezekiel Culverwell of London. 1631. London Metropolitan Archives and Guildhall Library Manuscripts Section, Clerkenwell, London, England; Reference Number: Ms 9172/40; Will Number: 73.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Culverwell-4#_note-5
13) John Barfoot, Gent. (bp. 17 Apr 1616 Lambourne, Essex, d. 1671 Lambourne, Essex) & Joane
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015008291869&view=1up&seq=344
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA8
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA47
14) Sarah Barfoot (sister of Dep. Gov. /Gov. NH Walter Barfoot)& Thomas Wiggin Jr.
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=4knyCwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PT93.w.3.0.0.0.1
Unviewed possible source: P. Morant’s, The history and antiquities of the county of Essex, Vol 1, pg.172 for Barfoot Pedigree (Anyone have access to it?)
Though I realize that these are not all primary sources and visitations are occasionally exaggerated, I felt as though this potential linage might be worthy of further scrutiny, and thought I’d share the fun.
Any collaborative assistance that anyone may offer to help fill in blanks would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Richard D. Acheson, Jr.
Maine, USA
A few more nuggets

Thomas Hildersham of Stetchworth (his pedigree in Harl. MSS., 1534, folio 122, also 1449, folio 27, b)

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/cambs/vol6/pp170-176

Research Thesis paper on Hildersham Barfoot Families

http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/2794/1/WRAP_THESIS_Rowe_2009.pdf
John Higgins
2019-11-17 00:46:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
So here’s a fun supposition that perhaps someone can help to prove or disprove- What follows is a draft hypothesis, and should not be taken for a confirmed lineage. The incentive for pursuing this came from the Visitation of Suffolk of 1561 (pg. 8) in the preamble to the Blodwell of Thurlow pedigree(a link follows). When a purported pedigree includes both a Bardolph and a Drury, any decent Plantagenet researcher tends to get interested?! Particularly true if that researcher descends from the potentially Royal immigrant who appears to be associated.
As a disclaimer, I’ve already discovered several provable lines of descent for my mother from Percival Lowell (x2), Rose Stoughton, Elizabeth Taylor (md. Robert Tufton Mason), and Elizabeth (Marshall) Lewis- so I really don’t have much to lose by failure here. Even though I grew up as a 3rd generation Ulster-Scot American, I long ago had to accept that Edward “Longshanks” is my ancestor. I’m over it…! My apologies in advance for any errors or bad links-
1) Edward I of England & Eleanor of Castille
2) Joan Plantagenet of Acre & Sir Gilbert de Clare, 7th Earl Gloucester & 6th Earl Hereford
3) Elizabeth de Clare, 11th Lady Clare & Sir Roger Damory, Lord Damory
4) Elizabeth d’Amory & Sir John Bardolf, 3rd Baron of Wormegay, Hertfordshire
5) Sir Edmund Bardolf of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Katherine Pelitot (dau. Sir Philip Pelitot- her 1st husband being Sir Ralph Boteler of Pulreback sharing a son Philip Boteler)
6) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Joan
7) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. & Miss Wentworth (his sister Maud md. Sir George Josselyn)
8) Mary Bardolf & Henry Blodwell (her sister Maud may have married Thomas Hoo)
9) John Blodwell, Gent. & Anne Drurye (dau. Sir Wm. Drury of Besthorpe)
10) Frances Blodwell & Thomas Hildersham, Esq.
11) Winifred Hildersham (m1) Edward Barefoot, Gent. of Lambourne, Essex; (m2) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell
12) Thomas Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Sarah Culverwell (1/2 or perhaps step siblings it seems)
13) John Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Joane
14) Sarah Barfoot & Thomas Wiggin (son of Capt. Thos. Wiggin who settled Dover, NH & Catherine Whiting)
15) Catherine Wiggin & Robert Tufton Mason… and on … and on down to me.
The first 4 generations are firmly established down to Elizabeth d’Amory who wed John Bardolph the 3rd Baron Wormegay, and then the hunt begins…
5) Sir Edmund Bardolf & Katherine Pelitot (Memorial Brasses at Watton Church, Hertfordshire)
https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1121.htm#i33662
I’m not sure what source Brent Reusch used here to determine that the 3rd Lord Wormegay had a son Edmund, but they certainly had a place and time in common…
https://archive.org/details/memorialbrassesi00andr/page/48
Indeed Sir John Bardolph, 3rd Baron Wormegay did hold Watton in his lifetime, and it continued on through a few generations of his heirs until 1508, so it is perhaps not too unreasonable that the Edmund Bardolph who married Katherine Pelitot and is buried at Watton Church is in fact the 3rd Baron Wormegay’s son, or at least a close relation.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/herts/vol3/pp158-165
From the brasses of Watton church link preceding, we also find on the floor of the south aisle that we have
6) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Joan
Presuming that the 2nd Edmund Bardolph’s missing brass effigy at Watton Church that is mentioned, is a son of, rather than a father of this couple, we may have a link to
7) Edmond Bardolfe, Esq. of Hertfordshire (Visitation of Suffolk 1561 for Blodwell of Thurlow) & Miss Wentworth?
https://books.google.com/books?id=EycAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=Thomas+Hildersham+Frances+Blodwell&source=bl&ots=AVvrtxgOKn&sig=ACfU3U0dTnF2kTzQ2Qhss5dH3AMdOHUPww&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjoku3X-
OzlAhUHvlkKHQmzDOQQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Thomas%20Hildersham%20Frances%20Blodwell&f=false
8) Mary Bardolf & Henry Blodwell (did her sister Maud married Thomas Hoo, thereby revealing perhaps the surname of her mother as Wentworth?)
https://archive.org/details/visitationsofher222732cook/page/n19
https://books.google.com/books?id=NcFCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=Maud+Bardolph+Thomas+Hoo&source=bl&ots=BEjTt4RTVo&sig=ACfU3U3LD3JEmAP2bHNlrzgO6jGoWpyujw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrnPKGzu3lAhUlhOAKHZ3XDns4ChDoATAGegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=Maud%20Bardolph%20Thomas%20Hoo&f=false
9) John Blodwell, Gent. & Anne Drurye
10) Frances Blodwell & Thomas Hildersham, Esq.
https://books.google.com/books?id=NFkMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA294&lpg=PA294&dq=Winifred+Hildersham+Ezekiel+Culverwell&source=bl&ots=x4KtRKY3dv&sig=ACfU3U2IwmfBKYgtKcJCf8eDk7pkY_KCCg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjL2YSo-
OzlAhXGo1kKHQ9mAPUQ6AEwBXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Winifred%20Hildersham%20Ezekiel%20Culverwell&f=false
11) Winifred Hildersham (m1) Edward Barefoot, Gent. of Lambourne, Essex (md. 3 Jan 1581/2 London)
https://archive.org/details/londonmarriageli00fost/page/n67
(m2) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell (md. 20 Oct 1598 London)
https://archive.org/details/allegationsform01londgoog/page/n283
12) Thomas Barfoote, Gent. of Lambourne (bp. 24 Jun 1586 Lambourne, Essex) & Sarah Culverwell (Primary Beneficiary & executrix of her father’s will)
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA2
Wikitree source citation- Will of Ezekiel Culverwell of London. 1631. London Metropolitan Archives and Guildhall Library Manuscripts Section, Clerkenwell, London, England; Reference Number: Ms 9172/40; Will Number: 73.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Culverwell-4#_note-5
13) John Barfoot, Gent. (bp. 17 Apr 1616 Lambourne, Essex, d. 1671 Lambourne, Essex) & Joane
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015008291869&view=1up&seq=344
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA8
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA47
14) Sarah Barfoot (sister of Dep. Gov. /Gov. NH Walter Barfoot)& Thomas Wiggin Jr.
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=4knyCwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PT93.w.3.0.0.0.1
Unviewed possible source: P. Morant’s, The history and antiquities of the county of Essex, Vol 1, pg.172 for Barfoot Pedigree (Anyone have access to it?)
Though I realize that these are not all primary sources and visitations are occasionally exaggerated, I felt as though this potential linage might be worthy of further scrutiny, and thought I’d share the fun.
Any collaborative assistance that anyone may offer to help fill in blanks would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Richard D. Acheson, Jr.
Maine, USA
A few more nuggets
Thomas Hildersham of Stetchworth (his pedigree in Harl. MSS., 1534, folio 122, also 1449, folio 27, b)
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/cambs/vol6/pp170-176
Research Thesis paper on Hildersham Barfoot Families
http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/2794/1/WRAP_THESIS_Rowe_2009.pdf
So...Frances Blodwell was the 1st wife of Thomas Hildersham, by whom she had Winifred who married (1) Edward Barfoot. (Is Winifred's 2nd husband known?) And Thomas's 2nd wife was Anne Pole, and their son was the controversial clergyman Rev. Arthur Hildersham (bio in ODNB). Correct? According to the thesis cited above, Rev. Arthur married Ann Barfoot, sister of Edward, husband of Sir Arthur's half-sister Winifred. Complicated....

Ruvigny's Clarence volume, table LXVI shows Ann Pole as marrying NN Hildersham of "Tetsworth", Cambridgeshire, with only a question mark as to descendants.
Andrew Lancaster
2019-11-16 09:55:50 UTC
Permalink
Concerning the Barfoot pedigree in Morant, the page you give is for Lamborn-Hall, in Lamborn. It says that in 145 John Curson died (22 August) holding this estate of Jasper the Duke of Bedford, in right of Anne his Duchess. John Curson's heir was his daughter Anne, who was one and half years old. Then he writes (using asterisks to show italics and a triple dash to show his long dashes):

"*Robert Barfoot*, citizen and mercer of London held the maner of Lamborne with appertenances, as of the Hundred of Ongar, by suit at that Hundred, and the service of the Wardstaff, viz. to carry a load of straw with a cart and 6 horses, and 2 men in rapiers to watch the said Wardstaff when it is brought to the town of Abridge, and also to make a certain quantity of the Park pale at Havering when need shall be, according to the old custom, in lieu of all services. He held also a messuage, and 100 acres in High-Ongar, and the maner of Stanfrod-hall, and 80 acres called Perrills in Stanford-Rivers and Bobbingworth (o). He dyed 22 August 1546, and is buried in this Church, as likewise Catharine his wife, with an epitaph At his feet are the effigies of 4 sons and 1 daughter; and at her feet the effigies of 4 sons and 10 daughters. ---*Thomas*, his eldest son and heir, succeeded him. What further account we have of this familie, is, that ---*John Barfoot* Esq; by Mary his wife, daughter and coheir of Thomas Goodman of Leatherhead in Surrey, had Anne; and several sons, the youngest of whom ---*John*, a woolen-draper in London, married Mary, daughter of John Eldred of Little Birch Esq; and had by her ---*John*, his only son, of Lincoln's-inn, who by Mary his wife, daughter of John Eldred of Stanway Esq; had John; Mary, and Anne, wife of the Rev Thomas Bernard, Vicar of Earl's-Colne &c. He dyed 26 January 1724-5."

(o) Inquis, 1 Edw. VI. Apr [illegible in my copy]

The text continues with an account of John Forescue Aland Esq, Baron of the Exchequer etc, created Baron Fortescue, who apparently held Lamborn Hall after the above family.
Richard Smith
2019-11-16 13:09:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
11) Winifred Hildersham (m1) Edward Barefoot, Gent. of Lambourne, Essex; (m2) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell
12) Thomas Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Sarah Culverwell (1/2 or perhaps step siblings it seems)
13) John Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Joane
14) Sarah Barfoot & Thomas Wiggin (son of Capt. Thos. Wiggin who settled Dover, NH & Catherine Whiting)
I'm interested to know more about this Barfoot family. In the 19th
century, the Barfoot family was very heavily concentrated in Hampshire,
particularly in the area around the town of Bishop's Waltham, and the
Hampshire family can be traced back to the early 16th century in
Curdridge, a hamlet in Bishop's Waltham parish. The relative rareness
of the surname together with its strong regional presence suggests it
may well have arisen just once. So I'm interested to hear about a
Barfoot family in the mid 16th century in Essex. Are you aware of any
other research into the early history of this Barfoot family in Essex?

Richard
JBrand
2019-11-16 16:13:53 UTC
Permalink
The Blodwell pedigree in the first posting seems to indicate the Blodwells had the Hinckley-Caldebeck-Notebeam-Pecche ancestry which is also behind the Lawrence family of New England. Another line of royal descent ...
c***@gmail.com
2019-11-16 17:00:51 UTC
Permalink
Dear Richard ~

As a Bardolf descendant, I have particular interest in your reconstructed pedigree of the Blodwell and Bardolf families, which two families you have proposed as being in the ancestry Sarah (Barfoot) Wiggin.

First things first. You're correct that the ancestral line you have proposed is sound down to Generation 4, which is headed by Sir John Bardolf, 3rd Lord Bardolf (1314-1363), and his wife, Elizabeth Damory.

The line breaks at that point, however. There is no evidence whatsoever that this couple had a son, Sir Edmund Bardolf, who married Katherine le Peletot, who you have placed as your Generation 5.

Sir Edmund Bardolf and his wife, Katherine, definitely existed. I've copied below what information I've collected regarding them.

As to Sir Edmund Barfolf's place in the Bardolf family tree, recently I came across a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1330 which identifies Edmund Bardolf as the son of Thomas Bardolf. The plaintiff in this lawsuit was Agnes, widow of Thomas Bardolf, 2nd Lord Bardolf (died 1328), who was suing for her dower rights. The three defendants in this lawsuit are Thomas, John, and Edmund Bardolf, all of whom are specifically styled sons of Thomas Bardolf. John Bardolf named in the lawsuit was certainly Agnes' own son and heir born in 1314. I assume Thomas and Edmund were his brothers.

Here is a brief abstract of the 1330 Common Pleas lawsuit:

In 1330 Agnes, widow of Thomas Bardolf, sued Thomas son of Thomas Bardolf in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the third part of the manors of Greatham, Hampshire and Fillingham, Lincolnshire; she likewise sued John son of Thomas Bardolf and Elizabeth his wife regarding the third part of the manors of Plumpton, Sussex, and Strumpshaw and Scratby (in Ormesby St. Margaret), Norfolk, and Edmund son of Thomas Bardolf regarding the third part of the manor of Harthill, Yorkshire, all of which properties she claimed as dower.

Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/283, image 4f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E3/CP40no283/cCP40no283fronts/IMG_0004.htm).

Given the above record, I would place Sir Edmund Bardolf as a newly identified brother (not son) of Sir John Bardolf, 3rd Lord Bardolf, who married Elizabeth Damory. This change in Sir Edmund's parentage obviously changes your proposed pedigree, but Sir Edmund still retains royal ancestry through his father, Sir Thomas Bardolf, 2nd Lord Bardolf.

For further particulars of the Bardolf family and their royal links, please see my book, Royal Ancestry (5 volume set) published in 2013.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + +

10. RALPH LE BOTELER (or BOTILLER), Knt., of Bromham and Stagsden, Bedfordshire, and, in right of his wife, of Watton Woodhall (in Watton-at-Stone), Hertfordshire. He married before 9 Feb. 1347 (date of fine) KATHERINE LE PELETOT (or PELITOT, PELLITOTT, PELETOYT), daughter and heiress of Philip le Peletot, Knt., of Watton Woodhall (in Watton-at-Stone), Hertfordshire, Knight of the Shire for Hertfordshire. They had one son, Philip, Knt. In 1347 Richard de Ruthyn, Citizen of London, conveyed to Ralph, son of Ralph le Botiller, of Norbury, Knt., ten messuages, lands, and 100s. rent in Stagsden and Bromham, Bedfordshire. The same year Philip Pelitot conveyed to Ralph and Katherine his wife and their heirs the manor of Sele (in St. Andrew Hertford), Herefordshire. In 1349 Walter de Mauny, Knt., sued Ralph le Botiller and Adam atte Halle in the Court of Common Pleas in a Hertfordshire plea regarding a trespass [vi et armis]. His widow, Katherine, married (2nd) before 1376 (date of lawsuit) EDMUND BARDOLF, Knt., in right of his wife, of Watton Woodhall (in Watton-at-Stone), Hertfordshire, younger son of Thomas Bardolf, Knt., 2nd Lord Bardolf, of Wormegay, Cantley, Caistor, Fincham, North Runcton, Stow Bardolf, and Well, Norfolk, Colwick, Gedling, Shelford, and Stoke Bardolph, Nottinghamshire, Ruskington and Westborough, Lincolnshire, Barlings, Sussex, etc., by Agnes, said to be daughter of William de Grandison (or Graunson), Knt., 1st Lord Grandison [see BARDOLF 12 for his ancestry]. In 1376 Philip Botiller, of Bromham, Bedfordshire, sued Edmund and Katherine his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding waste in three houses, woods, gardens, etc. in Bromham, Bedfordshire. In 1377 Edmund Bardolf, Knt. sued Philip Boteler in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £20. The same year Philip Botiller, sued Edmund and Katherine his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding waste in Essex. Edmund presented to the church of Watton-at-Stone, Hertfordshire in 1366, 1375, 1377, 1384, and 1385.

References:

Clutterbuck, Hist. & Antiqs. of Hertford 2 (1821): 472–476 (Boteler ped.), 485. Chauncy, Hist. Antiqs. of Hertfordshire 2 (1826): 47–51. Waters, Chester of Chicheley 1 (1878): 138–139 (Boteler ped.), 155–158. Ormerod, Hist. of Chester 2 (1882): 728–729 (Boteler ped.). Andrews, Memorial Brasses in Hertfordshire Churches (1903): 147–149. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/359, image 9051d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E3/CP40no359/bCP40no359mm1dtoEnd/IMG_9051.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/463, image 50f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no463/aCP40no463fronts/IMG_0050.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/466, image 121 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no466/466_0121.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/466, image 144 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no466/466_0144.htm). National Archives, SC 8/156/7772 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). National Archives, CP 25/1/5/59, #7; CP 25/1/89/82, #331 [see abstract of fines at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html].
Post by a***@gmail.com
So here’s a fun supposition that perhaps someone can help to prove or disprove- What follows is a draft hypothesis, and should not be taken for a confirmed lineage. The incentive for pursuing this came from the Visitation of Suffolk of 1561 (pg. 8) in the preamble to the Blodwell of Thurlow pedigree(a link follows). When a purported pedigree includes both a Bardolph and a Drury, any decent Plantagenet researcher tends to get interested?! Particularly true if that researcher descends from the potentially Royal immigrant who appears to be associated.
As a disclaimer, I’ve already discovered several provable lines of descent for my mother from Percival Lowell (x2), Rose Stoughton, Elizabeth Taylor (md. Robert Tufton Mason), and Elizabeth (Marshall) Lewis- so I really don’t have much to lose by failure here. Even though I grew up as a 3rd generation Ulster-Scot American, I long ago had to accept that Edward “Longshanks” is my ancestor. I’m over it…! My apologies in advance for any errors or bad links-
1) Edward I of England & Eleanor of Castille
2) Joan Plantagenet of Acre & Sir Gilbert de Clare, 7th Earl Gloucester & 6th Earl Hereford
3) Elizabeth de Clare, 11th Lady Clare & Sir Roger Damory, Lord Damory
4) Elizabeth d’Amory & Sir John Bardolf, 3rd Baron of Wormegay, Hertfordshire
5) Sir Edmund Bardolf of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Katherine Pelitot (dau. Sir Philip Pelitot- her 1st husband being Sir Ralph Boteler of Pulreback sharing a son Philip Boteler)
6) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Joan
7) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. & Miss Wentworth (his sister Maud md. Sir George Josselyn)
8) Mary Bardolf & Henry Blodwell (her sister Maud may have married Thomas Hoo)
9) John Blodwell, Gent. & Anne Drurye (dau. Sir Wm. Drury of Besthorpe)
10) Frances Blodwell & Thomas Hildersham, Esq.
11) Winifred Hildersham (m1) Edward Barefoot, Gent. of Lambourne, Essex; (m2) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell
12) Thomas Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Sarah Culverwell (1/2 or perhaps step siblings it seems)
13) John Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Joane
14) Sarah Barfoot & Thomas Wiggin (son of Capt. Thos. Wiggin who settled Dover, NH & Catherine Whiting)
15) Catherine Wiggin & Robert Tufton Mason… and on … and on down to me.
The first 4 generations are firmly established down to Elizabeth d’Amory who wed John Bardolph the 3rd Baron Wormegay, and then the hunt begins…
5) Sir Edmund Bardolf & Katherine Pelitot (Memorial Brasses at Watton Church, Hertfordshire)
https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1121.htm#i33662
I’m not sure what source Brent Reusch used here to determine that the 3rd Lord Wormegay had a son Edmund, but they certainly had a place and time in common…
https://archive.org/details/memorialbrassesi00andr/page/48
Indeed Sir John Bardolph, 3rd Baron Wormegay did hold Watton in his lifetime, and it continued on through a few generations of his heirs until 1508, so it is perhaps not too unreasonable that the Edmund Bardolph who married Katherine Pelitot and is buried at Watton Church is in fact the 3rd Baron Wormegay’s son, or at least a close relation.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/herts/vol3/pp158-165
From the brasses of Watton church link preceding, we also find on the floor of the south aisle that we have
6) Edmund Bardolf, Esq. of Watton, Woodhall, Hertfordshire & Joan
Presuming that the 2nd Edmund Bardolph’s missing brass effigy at Watton Church that is mentioned, is a son of, rather than a father of this couple, we may have a link to
7) Edmond Bardolfe, Esq. of Hertfordshire (Visitation of Suffolk 1561 for Blodwell of Thurlow) & Miss Wentworth?
https://books.google.com/books?id=EycAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=Thomas+Hildersham+Frances+Blodwell&source=bl&ots=AVvrtxgOKn&sig=ACfU3U0dTnF2kTzQ2Qhss5dH3AMdOHUPww&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjoku3X-
OzlAhUHvlkKHQmzDOQQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Thomas%20Hildersham%20Frances%20Blodwell&f=false
8) Mary Bardolf & Henry Blodwell (did her sister Maud married Thomas Hoo, thereby revealing perhaps the surname of her mother as Wentworth?)
https://archive.org/details/visitationsofher222732cook/page/n19
https://books.google.com/books?id=NcFCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=Maud+Bardolph+Thomas+Hoo&source=bl&ots=BEjTt4RTVo&sig=ACfU3U3LD3JEmAP2bHNlrzgO6jGoWpyujw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrnPKGzu3lAhUlhOAKHZ3XDns4ChDoATAGegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=Maud%20Bardolph%20Thomas%20Hoo&f=false
9) John Blodwell, Gent. & Anne Drurye
10) Frances Blodwell & Thomas Hildersham, Esq.
https://books.google.com/books?id=NFkMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA294&lpg=PA294&dq=Winifred+Hildersham+Ezekiel+Culverwell&source=bl&ots=x4KtRKY3dv&sig=ACfU3U2IwmfBKYgtKcJCf8eDk7pkY_KCCg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjL2YSo-
OzlAhXGo1kKHQ9mAPUQ6AEwBXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Winifred%20Hildersham%20Ezekiel%20Culverwell&f=false
11) Winifred Hildersham (m1) Edward Barefoot, Gent. of Lambourne, Essex (md. 3 Jan 1581/2 London)
https://archive.org/details/londonmarriageli00fost/page/n67
(m2) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell (md. 20 Oct 1598 London)
https://archive.org/details/allegationsform01londgoog/page/n283
12) Thomas Barfoote, Gent. of Lambourne (bp. 24 Jun 1586 Lambourne, Essex) & Sarah Culverwell (Primary Beneficiary & executrix of her father’s will)
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA2
Wikitree source citation- Will of Ezekiel Culverwell of London. 1631. London Metropolitan Archives and Guildhall Library Manuscripts Section, Clerkenwell, London, England; Reference Number: Ms 9172/40; Will Number: 73.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Culverwell-4#_note-5
13) John Barfoot, Gent. (bp. 17 Apr 1616 Lambourne, Essex, d. 1671 Lambourne, Essex) & Joane
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015008291869&view=1up&seq=344
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA8
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=eQQVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA47
14) Sarah Barfoot (sister of Dep. Gov. /Gov. NH Walter Barfoot)& Thomas Wiggin Jr.
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=4knyCwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PT93.w.3.0.0.0.1
Unviewed possible source: P. Morant’s, The history and antiquities of the county of Essex, Vol 1, pg.172 for Barfoot Pedigree (Anyone have access to it?)
Though I realize that these are not all primary sources and visitations are occasionally exaggerated, I felt as though this potential linage might be worthy of further scrutiny, and thought I’d share the fun.
Any collaborative assistance that anyone may offer to help fill in blanks would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Richard D. Acheson, Jr.
Maine, USA
Richard ACHESON
2019-11-16 21:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Thanks to everyone for your assistance and also your collective interest. Doug, I too am probably already a Bardolf-Drury descendant, so it's an area I'm curious to explore further. I believe I already descend from Katherine Pelitot via her 1st husband Ralph Boteler of Pulreback. I believe the line goes

Katherine Pelitot (m1) Ralph Boteler (m2) Edmund Bardolph
Sir Philip Boteler of Watton, Woodhall & Isabel
Sir Philip Boteler of Watton, Woodhall & Elizabeth Cockayne
Philip Boteler, Esq- Sheriff of Hertf. & Essex & Isabel Willoughby
John Boteler, Esq- Sheriff of Hertf. & Essex & Elizabeth Downhall
John Boteler, Esq. & Dorothy Tyrell
Sir Philip Boteler, MP (Knight of the Body of Henry VIII) & Elizabeth Drury (dau. of Sir Robt. Drury, Spkr house of Commons)
Sir John Boteler, MP & Grizelde Roche
Mary Boteler & Thomas Shotbolt, Esq.
and so on down to Elizabeth Taylor of Bradley, Hampshire who married Robert Tufton Mason
They being my purported immigrant ancestors along that line, arriving c. 1680

Elizabeth Drury preceding of course has a Royal descent from Joan of Acre and Sir Gilbert de Clare, through Calthorpe, Stapylton, Bardolf and D'Amory. Hence my Bardolf-Drury interest and my knowledge of the existence of Katherine Pelitot.

The potential Sarah Barfoot Royal ancestry link, such as it may be through a likely brother rather than son of John 3rd Baron Wormegay (birth & death dates rather undetermined for Edmund), still would seem to hinge upon the last Edmund Bardolph #7 of the Watton brasses, being the same as the Edmund in the Blodwell Visitation pedigree (all other visitation, etc. facts being presently accepted as true). Two men of about the right age and of the same county is tantalizing, but not yet a good proof in my opinion. Even still, the pedigree from Sarah Barfoot back to her Edmund Bardolph could yield some fascinating collateral lines as yet undiscovered- royal or otherwise. There's more to be learned here I'm sure. The Barfoot family seems to pop out of relative obscurity with the aforementioned Robert of Lambourne, and suddenly marries into the already gentrified Hildersham, Blodwell, & Culverwell families. There may be more to that story than meets the eye. Ezekiel Culverwell seems to have a Berney-Southwell set of g-grandparents that may be interesting as well. Anyone else here also descend from Sarah Barfoot or her brother Walter?
Richard ACHESON
2019-11-17 01:34:49 UTC
Permalink
Winifred's 2nd husband is Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell, so it's very confusing!

(m1 in 1582)Edward Barfoot, Gent. = Winifred Hildersham = (m2 in 1598) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell
| (by m1) | (by m2)
Thomas Barfoot, Gent. (b. 1586) = Sarah Culverwell (b. 1600)
|
John Barfoot, Gent. (b.1616)

If Sarah C. was truly born in 1600, then son John is the son of incestuous half sibling parents. So yes it's a convoluted family tree for sure from appearances.
Richard ACHESON
2019-11-17 02:02:10 UTC
Permalink
Ezekiel was evidently a widower with children, so it seems probable that Sarah was one of those children by the earlier wife.

https://books.google.com/books?id=NFkMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA294&lpg=PA294&dq=Ezekiel+Culverwell+Winifred+Hildersham+Sarah+Culverwell&source=bl&ots=x4KtSLZYby&sig=ACfU3U0tcamP5Gqeg6EoHNlLelnCvvDD6Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihruCSk_DlAhWS1FkKHS9oBzoQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Ezekiel%20Culverwell%20Winifred%20Hildersham%20Sarah%20Culverwell&f=false
Richard ACHESON
2019-11-17 02:14:37 UTC
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I found somewhere that Ezekiel Culverwell had a daughter Margaret by his first wife. She must be the Margaret Chevers of his will, and her son Ezekiell must therefore be Rev. Ezekiel's grandson.

https://books.google.com/books?id=CaNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=Thomas+Barfoot+Sarah+Culverwell+london+marriages&source=bl&ots=y-677bBJqr&sig=ACfU3U1UHGHDzN5V94RFJzfD8peKNQeR3w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjmyJvUlPDlAhUOmuAKHcFfAQAQ6AEwAnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Thomas%20Barfoot%20Sarah%20Culverwell%20london%20marriages&f=false
Richard ACHESON
2019-12-12 03:20:10 UTC
Permalink
I still haven't given up on her...

1) Henry II Plantagenet & Ida Toeni

2) William Longspee, 1st Earl of Salisbury & Ela Salisbury

3) Ida Longspee and Sir Walter fitz Robert, Lord of Little Dunmow

4) Sir Robert fitz Walter of Little Dunmow and Woodham & Devorguille de Burgh

5) Christian fitz Walter & Sir William Marshall, 1st Lord Marshall (d. Bannockburn- desc. (x2) Henry I)

6) Ellen Marshal and Robert Mautby of Flegg

See Maultby of Norfolk, pg. 92 https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=qd41AAAAMAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA91.w.1.2.0

7) Sir John Mautby of Flegg & Isabel de Clavering

8) Alianore Mautby & William Calthorpe of Burnham Thorpe

9) William Denston of Besthorpe & Anne Calthorpe

10) Felice Denston & Sir Roger Drury of Hawstead

11) Sir Wm. Drury of Besthorpe & Margaret Briggs (dau. of Wm. Bridges, Esq. - Mayor of Thetford)

12) Anne Drurye & John Blodwell, Gent.

13) Frances Blodwell & Thomas Hildersham, Esq.

14) Winifred Hildersham (m1) Edward Barefoot, Gent. of Lambourne, Essex; (m2) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell

15) Thomas Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Sarah Culverwell (1/2 or perhaps step siblings)

16) John Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Joane

17) Sarah Barfoot & Thomas Wiggin (son of Capt. Thos. Wiggin of Dover, NH & Catherine Whiting)

Sarah Barfoot is a Plantagenet in there somewhere I suspect.
Your critical eyes are appreciated as always.
c***@gmail.com
2019-12-12 07:34:20 UTC
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Dear Richard ~

Your proposed line of descent is good down to Generation 5. It fails at that point.

William le Marshal, Knt., Lord Marshal (died 1314) and his wife, Christian de Burgh (your Generation 5), had one son, John, and two daughters, Denise (died unmarried) and Hawise (wife of Robert de Morley, Knt., 2nd Lord Morley). There was no daughter named Ellen.

For further particulars, I recommend you consult my book, Royal Ancestry (5 volume set), published in 2013. I also suggest you consult Complete Peerage 8 (1932): 528–529 (sub Marshal).

Sincerely, Douglas Richardson, Author
Post by Richard ACHESON
I still haven't given up on her...
1) Henry II Plantagenet & Ida Toeni
2) William Longspee, 1st Earl of Salisbury & Ela Salisbury
3) Ida Longspee and Sir Walter fitz Robert, Lord of Little Dunmow
4) Sir Robert fitz Walter of Little Dunmow and Woodham & Devorguille de Burgh
5) Christian fitz Walter & Sir William Marshall, 1st Lord Marshall (d. Bannockburn- desc. (x2) Henry I)
6) Ellen Marshal and Robert Mautby of Flegg
See Maultby of Norfolk, pg. 92 https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=qd41AAAAMAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA91.w.1.2.0
7) Sir John Mautby of Flegg & Isabel de Clavering
8) Alianore Mautby & William Calthorpe of Burnham Thorpe
9) William Denston of Besthorpe & Anne Calthorpe
10) Felice Denston & Sir Roger Drury of Hawstead
11) Sir Wm. Drury of Besthorpe & Margaret Briggs (dau. of Wm. Bridges, Esq. - Mayor of Thetford)
12) Anne Drurye & John Blodwell, Gent.
13) Frances Blodwell & Thomas Hildersham, Esq.
14) Winifred Hildersham (m1) Edward Barefoot, Gent. of Lambourne, Essex; (m2) Rev. Ezekiel Culverwell
15) Thomas Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Sarah Culverwell (1/2 or perhaps step siblings)
16) John Barfoot, Gent. of Lambourne & Joane
17) Sarah Barfoot & Thomas Wiggin (son of Capt. Thos. Wiggin of Dover, NH & Catherine Whiting)
Sarah Barfoot is a Plantagenet in there somewhere I suspect.
Your critical eyes are appreciated as always.
Richard ACHESON
2019-12-12 03:28:03 UTC
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Sorry for the slip, generation 9 has the names reversed. Anne Calthorpe has the royal lineage proposed, not her husband William Denston.
Richard ACHESON
2019-12-13 03:40:48 UTC
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So the Visitation of Norfolk for Paston pg. 215 is in error?

https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/214

In truth, it doesn't seems a pedigree worthy of much exaggeration. The Norfolk Archaeology: on Miscellaneous Tracts Relating to the Antiquities of the County of Norfolk publication reiterates the union in Vol. III, pg. 159

https://books.google.com/books?id=GwAVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=ellen+marshall+robert+mautby&source=bl&ots=iI-Y-u_Ru4&sig=ACfU3U0fRf_NUDpbHqDUpNPzs-HwoF5qQw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjavKP517HmAhXOpFkKHXjRDDc4ChDoATAHegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=ellen%20marshall%20robert%20mautby&f=false
Richard ACHESON
2019-12-13 04:25:52 UTC
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Hawise Marshall & Robert Moreley, 2nd Lord Morley are already familiar to me

A partial of my own descent seems to run:
1) Hawise Marshall & Robert Morley, 2nd Lord Morley
2) William Morley, 3rd Lord Morley & Cecily Bardolf
3) Sir John Morley & Matilda Barry
4) Maud Morley & Thomas ap Guillem
5) Sir William ap Thomas Herbert & Gladys Gam
6) William Herbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke, KG & Frond verch Hoesgyn
7) Anne Herbert & Richard Greville of Lemington/Lamington
8) Eleanor Greville & Richard Taylor of Nympsfield
9) John Taylor, Esq. of Haseldon Grange & Margaret Ramsey (btw- I would love to know her parents)
10) Thomas Taylor, Esq. of Battersey & Cecily Walker
11) Thomas Taylor, Esq. of Middlesex (quite the rebel he was) & Mary Shotbolt
12) William Taylor, Esq. of Bradley & Barbara Hanbury
13) Elizabeth Taylor & Robert Tufton "Mason", Esq.
John Higgins
2019-12-13 07:14:55 UTC
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Post by Richard ACHESON
Hawise Marshall & Robert Moreley, 2nd Lord Morley are already familiar to me
1) Hawise Marshall & Robert Morley, 2nd Lord Morley
2) William Morley, 3rd Lord Morley & Cecily Bardolf
3) Sir John Morley & Matilda Barry
4) Maud Morley & Thomas ap Guillem
5) Sir William ap Thomas Herbert & Gladys Gam
6) William Herbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke, KG & Frond verch Hoesgyn
7) Anne Herbert & Richard Greville of Lemington/Lamington
8) Eleanor Greville & Richard Taylor of Nympsfield
9) John Taylor, Esq. of Haseldon Grange & Margaret Ramsey (btw- I would love to know her parents)
10) Thomas Taylor, Esq. of Battersey & Cecily Walker
11) Thomas Taylor, Esq. of Middlesex (quite the rebel he was) & Mary Shotbolt
12) William Taylor, Esq. of Bradley & Barbara Hanbury
13) Elizabeth Taylor & Robert Tufton "Mason", Esq.
I can see at least two probable errors in this descent.

Gen. 3: According to CP 9:215, William Morley, 3rd Lord Morley and Cecily Bardolf did have a son John but he "apparently d. sp and vp." Since the next younger son William succeeded to the peerage, this is certainly correct.

Maud Morley's father Sir John Morley is referred to in various Welsh sources as of Llansanffraid in Monmouthshire - no indication of any connection to the family of the Lords Morley. This looks like a grafting of two different families together. What is your source for this?

Gen. 7: The pedigree of the Herbert family in Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, table Godwin 8(A1) gives the 1st Earl of Pembroke no daughter Anne mar. Richard Greville - either by the indicated mistress or by any of his other partners. Again, what is your source for this?
Richard ACHESON
2019-12-14 01:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Is this a forum for dialogue? I merely posited that I was familiar with this couple from my own investigations. Please remember that terse statements over the internet can be misinterpreted as open hostility, which I don't believe is warranted in this case.

As a note- "seems to run"- does not mean I have absolutely validated the hypothesized lineage at each and every link. It means I suppose it runs thus. An obscure lineage of that sort is difficult to prove and probably not worth the time, money, and effort to derive, unless one is into selling books. Hence why I post it, so that others may lend critical analysis. It was not, and is not, intended as a statement of proven fact.

as for Gen (3)
I was unaware that John is believed to have died without heirs. It was therefore an erroneous supposition.

as for Gen (7)
Tudorplace is relatively reliable like Stirnet, although without a primary source it obviously can't be relied upon to "prove" a descent.

http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/HERBERT1.htm

So evidently someone believes that relationship occurred- if you have evidence to the contrary, please bring it to their attention to bring an end to the spread of erroneous information.

None of this brings us back to the original question of:

Is the Paston pedigree delineated in the Visitation of Norfolk know to be in error?

Just because only 2 daughters are noted as heirs as a result of one author's investigations- the first dying without offspring, the second therefore inheriting; that does not necessarily mean that a further 1, 2, 10, 15 daughters did not exist. Known, unknown, or otherwise. Paper recording had limitations. Birth control didn't exist in a reliable form, and most offspring may not have even been considered worthy of mention for inheritance or pedigree purposes.

I appreciate the professionalism of everyone's responses as though I am NOT a certified genealogist, and have not masqueraded as one, I have been performing genealogical investigations for 37 years now. I've picked up a few things. I am however in possession of a degree in Physics, so I can assure you that I am not completely devoid of intellect, and as such understand the difference between hypothesis, theory, and proof.

I similarly understand that as fascinating as this form of research may be, it all goes straight into the garbage can when someone is cuckolded along the way (around 2% per generation I believe?), which btw we will never even know- so pedigrees will always remain conjecture on some level. This is not exactly rocket science, where things explode if the calculation is even slightly wrong. I leave that to my brother, the astrophysicist. If my input is not of interest to anyone here, please simply advise me so.
John Higgins
2019-12-14 06:30:25 UTC
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Post by Richard ACHESON
Is this a forum for dialogue? I merely posited that I was familiar with this couple from my own investigations. Please remember that terse statements over the internet can be misinterpreted as open hostility, which I don't believe is warranted in this case.
As a note- "seems to run"- does not mean I have absolutely validated the hypothesized lineage at each and every link. It means I suppose it runs thus. An obscure lineage of that sort is difficult to prove and probably not worth the time, money, and effort to derive, unless one is into selling books. Hence why I post it, so that others may lend critical analysis. It was not, and is not, intended as a statement of proven fact.
as for Gen (3)
I was unaware that John is believed to have died without heirs. It was therefore an erroneous supposition.
as for Gen (7)
Tudorplace is relatively reliable like Stirnet, although without a primary source it obviously can't be relied upon to "prove" a descent.
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/HERBERT1.htm
So evidently someone believes that relationship occurred- if you have evidence to the contrary, please bring it to their attention to bring an end to the spread of erroneous information.
Is the Paston pedigree delineated in the Visitation of Norfolk know to be in error?
Just because only 2 daughters are noted as heirs as a result of one author's investigations- the first dying without offspring, the second therefore inheriting; that does not necessarily mean that a further 1, 2, 10, 15 daughters did not exist. Known, unknown, or otherwise. Paper recording had limitations. Birth control didn't exist in a reliable form, and most offspring may not have even been considered worthy of mention for inheritance or pedigree purposes.
I appreciate the professionalism of everyone's responses as though I am NOT a certified genealogist, and have not masqueraded as one, I have been performing genealogical investigations for 37 years now. I've picked up a few things. I am however in possession of a degree in Physics, so I can assure you that I am not completely devoid of intellect, and as such understand the difference between hypothesis, theory, and proof.
I similarly understand that as fascinating as this form of research may be, it all goes straight into the garbage can when someone is cuckolded along the way (around 2% per generation I believe?), which btw we will never even know- so pedigrees will always remain conjecture on some level. This is not exactly rocket science, where things explode if the calculation is even slightly wrong. I leave that to my brother, the astrophysicist. If my input is not of interest to anyone here, please simply advise me so.
I regret that you appear to have received my comments as reflecting "open hostility", as that was certainly not the intent. I simply presented, in what I though was a brief and dispassionate manner, some facts which added to the descent you had presented. I do see that I apparently didn't realize that the descent you presented was simply a hypothesized lineage and not necessarily fully supported at each link. Most lines presented in this group generally do have some degree of support for them - which is why I asked (politely, I thought) for what your sources might be.

I do think it's inaccurate to say that "Tudorplace is relatively reliable like Stirnet". In my experience, Tudorplace almost never has sources - primary or otherwise. Stirnet does almost always provide sources - generally secondary admittedly, but least they're generally known and recognized sources. But each of us can reach our own judgments about the reliability and usefulness of each source.

With respect to generation 7 (Anne Herbert & Richard Greville of Lemington), here's an additional piece of information. The 1569 visitation of Worcestershire (Harleian Society, Visitation series, vol. 21), in a pedigree of the Vampage family on page 69, has a reference to "Richard Greville of Lemington = ...da[ughter]. of ....Herbert". See here (near the bottom of the page):
https://books.google.com/books?id=ECoEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA69#v=onepage&q&f=false

But it's quite a leap to go from a unnamed Herbert daughter to Anne, daughter of William Herbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke, as is shown in Tudorplace. (And, to be clear, I'm not saying that this was the source for the statement in Tudorplace.) But I wouldn't be surprised if some eager and incautious genealogist might have jumped to such a conclusion in the past (not you, of course!).

I think the same situation holds for the Norfolk visitation you've mentioned. The pedigree there simply states that "Robert Mawtby" married "Ellen da[ughter] of William Marshall". But there's no reason to conclude that this William Marshall is the well-documented Sir William Marshall, Lord Marshall. In fact, the argument could be made that that, if he WERE indeed the more famous Sir William Marshall, he would have been more fully described as such in the visitation pedigree.

I too am not a "certified" genealogist or any other such highfalutin title. I've been working in genealogy about as long as you have, solely as a hobby and for my own personal enjoyment. I've learned a lot over the years, and I try to share what I may have learned when it might be helpful. I've enjoyed reading your posts in this thread, and I hope you'll take my comments in the spirit in which they were intended. I hope this clears the air a bit...
Richard ACHESON
2019-12-14 15:56:26 UTC
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Thank you for the clarification of your intentions, and I do appreciate your comments and thoughtful interactions. No harm done, it's just that the internet has the potential to be such a source for good, and yet somehow it is often twisted toward the opposite end. I think I've grown to almost expect it, perhaps a little too much so. Like yourself I was doing research the old fashioned way, long before such a powerful tool came along. It's truly a gift to genealogy in particular, albeit at times a double edged one. A source for spreading both truth and also myth. Genealogy is the search for truth. None of us has any say in who our ancestors were, but it certainly can provide an interesting tour through history. That's what I enjoy most, is that it reminds us we're all part of that collective of human history, and that one way another we're all brothers and sisters.

Thanks again for your input. Many minds working together can accomplish a great deal more than any one alone.
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