Discussion:
de Weyland, an Irish Connection (?) : Chipping Sodbury, co. Glocs.
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Nancy
2021-06-26 11:59:50 UTC
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Wednesday, 5 June, 2002
Hello All,
On the question of Richard de Weyland, son of Thomas, additional
evidence has been found that clearly shows (together with that
previously posted and referred to below) Richard died without direct
heirs, and that the succeeding holder of his lands was either his
brother John or nephew Richard.
The following are (A) two writs from the reign of Edward I, and
(B) information extracted from the IPM of Mabel Tregoz, nee FitzWarin,
wife successively of William de Creverquer of Folkestone, Kent and
John de Tregoz, Lord Tregoz (d. 1300).
A. '18 Edw I - Richard Weyland, son of Sir Thomas Weyland and
Margery, as mentioned below.
Thomas de Weyland qui pro felonia regum abjuravit. Breve
de manerio de Anhus [On hus] liberando Margeriae uxori
praedictae Thomae et Ricardo filio eorundem asserentibus
se, una cum praedicto Thoma, de manerio conjunctim fuisse
feoffatos' [Calendarium Genealogicum v. 2 p. 753]
This is a writ of 1290 authorising the release of Anhus
manor to Margery and Richard, as he and Sir Thomas were
jointly enfeoffed.'
'30 Edw I
Ricardus de Weylond et Juliana uxor ejus. De non respondendo
coram custode Quinque Portuum super debitis contractibus aut
transgressionibus infra Baroniam de Folkestan de qua ipsi
Ricardus et Juliana tenent tertiam partem de Rege in capite'
B. 'Sir Richard Weyland was mentioned as Lord of Folkeston in
31 Edward I in the IPM of Nicholas Criol. Juliana his wife
was the daughter of John de Sandwich as outlined by the
following. Folkeston descended via Hamo de Crevequer.
'The IPM of Mabel Tregoz, 25 Edw I, widow of William de
Crevequer and John Tregoz (CIPM, v. 3 no. 412) regarding
the manor of Weston, Beds.
'The genealogy laid out goes thus
William d'Avranches
I
Maud d'Avranche = Hamo de Crevequer
I
1. William = Mabel = (2) John Tregoz
2. Agnes
3. John
4. Juliana aged 23 plus in 25 Edw I = Richard Weyland
2. Iseult
3. John de Lenham 30 years plus
3. Eleanor aged 60 years plus '
Following on the above, I have found statements (unfortunately
from unsourced websites) stating that this Richard de Weyland died in
1306, or before 1311. At that date or soon thereafter, it is
documented that Juliana his widow married John de Segrave, younger son
of Sir John de Segrave, 2nd Lord Segrave (d.ca. 1325). The heir to
Juliana's share of a third of Folkestone was their son John de
Segrave, of Folkestone, who d. in July 1349. This John's heir was his
cousin John, Lord Segrave [CP Vol. XI, p. 609 and note n on the same
page, citing CIPM vol. ix, no. 598].
Given the evidence cited by Copinger concerning Richard de Weyland
of Blaxhall, Suffolk & c., and his wife Joan, including a fine of 1313
levied as to the manors of Blaxhall, Middleton, Wantisden and
Cockfield, Suffolk [Vol. II, p. 124 citing 'Feet of Fines, 6 Edw. II.
33'] it is clear that there were two distinct individuals named
Richard: one the brother of John de Weyland (d. 1312], and the other
the son and heir of John de Weyland, and father of the heiress Cecily
de Weyland (subsequently Lady Burghersh).
Many thanks to Rosie Bevan for locating and reviewing the new
evidence cited.
Tuesday, 28 May, 2002
Dear Rosie, Douglas, et al.,
Two sources of information have raised issues as to both the ancestry of
the issue of Sir Thomas de Weyland, one-time Lord Chief Justice of the King's
Bench (d. in exile, 1291 or later), and the exact line of descent from Sir
Thomas to Cecily de Weyland, heiress of her father (Sir Richard) and wife of
Bartholomew de Burghersh, Lord Burghersh (d. 1369).
The first source, alleging that the Weyland or Welond family 'had been
the original Anglo-Norman grantees' of Tulachrothan and other lands in
' 1283 (Quinzaine of St. Martin). Final concord
made in the King's court at Westminster, in the
quinzaine of St. Martin, a. r. 12, before John
de Lobetot, Roger of Leicester, and William de
Burnton, justices between Thomas Welond, Margery
his wife, Richard their son, complainants, and
William le Gras, deforciant, whereby a plea of
agreement was made between them, to wit, that
the said William acknowledged the manor of
Sobbit (i.e. Sodbbury) to be the right of the
said Richard to hold to the said Thomas,
Margery, and Richard, and the heirs body of
Richard, of the lords of the fee for ever;
with reversion in fee to John, son of Thomas
Welond, after Thomas's and Margery's death, if
Richard should have no heirs of his body.
Warranty by William; and for this acknowledge-
ment, warranty, fine and concord, the said
Thomas granted in exchange to the said William
all the lands, & c., which William previously
had of the gift of William Welond, Thomas's
brother, in Tulachrothan, Rathbolgan,
Gurtuelem and Balydine, Ireland, to hold to
the said William le Gras in fee; paying 1d.
at Easter, and rendering for Thomas to the
chief lords of the fee all other services
belonging to the said tenements in Ireland.
Warranty of the tenements in Ireland by
Thomas and his heirs to the said William le
Gras.' [1]
Evidently the Weyland family in fact had established rights in Ireland,
to which Sir Thomas was heir, but over which there was some dispute. Sir
Thomas had (according to Copinger) inherited the Suffolk manors of the family
at Brandeston, Westerfield & c. from his elder brother William, who d. in
1274 (shortly after their father, Sir John). This is the first indication I
have seen of such a connection between the Weyland family and tenancies in
Ireland.
<<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>
There were 2 Richard Weylands.
Thomas Weyland m. 1st Anne Colvill & their son John d. 1312 m. Mary Braose & had a son Richard b 1290. Richard was 22 yrs. old at his dad John's inquisition. This Richard WASN'T the father of Cecily.
Thomas Weyland m. 2nd Margery Moese. Their son was Richard d. 1319 m. to Joan Ufford & had a daughter Cecily. At Richard's inquisition he held only the Manor of Onehouse & it mentions his wife Joan & daughter Cecily.
https://archive.org/details/cu31924099427845/page/n173/mode/2up
The Manor of Onhus/Onehouse was given to Margery Moese & her son Richard in 1291.
https://books.google.com/books?id=GwtKAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=margery+de+moese&source=bl&ots=jKl5kOpq5F&sig=ACfU3U0rL4uBMSjY909L1-5wBcs5D6NTEA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwia772u8rTsAhX5lXIEHRpfD5E4FBDoATAJegQIAhAC#v=onepage&q=margery%20de%20moese&f=false
Clearly there were two different Richards. One the half-brother of John & the dad to Cecily Burghersh & the other one John's son.
Will Johnson
2021-06-29 21:11:37 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Nancy
Wednesday, 5 June, 2002
Hello All,
On the question of Richard de Weyland, son of Thomas, additional
evidence has been found that clearly shows (together with that
previously posted and referred to below) Richard died without direct
heirs, and that the succeeding holder of his lands was either his
brother John or nephew Richard.
The following are (A) two writs from the reign of Edward I, and
(B) information extracted from the IPM of Mabel Tregoz, nee FitzWarin,
wife successively of William de Creverquer of Folkestone, Kent and
John de Tregoz, Lord Tregoz (d. 1300).
A. '18 Edw I - Richard Weyland, son of Sir Thomas Weyland and
Margery, as mentioned below.
Thomas de Weyland qui pro felonia regum abjuravit. Breve
de manerio de Anhus [On hus] liberando Margeriae uxori
praedictae Thomae et Ricardo filio eorundem asserentibus
se, una cum praedicto Thoma, de manerio conjunctim fuisse
feoffatos' [Calendarium Genealogicum v. 2 p. 753]
This is a writ of 1290 authorising the release of Anhus
manor to Margery and Richard, as he and Sir Thomas were
jointly enfeoffed.'
'30 Edw I
Ricardus de Weylond et Juliana uxor ejus. De non respondendo
coram custode Quinque Portuum super debitis contractibus aut
transgressionibus infra Baroniam de Folkestan de qua ipsi
Ricardus et Juliana tenent tertiam partem de Rege in capite'
B. 'Sir Richard Weyland was mentioned as Lord of Folkeston in
31 Edward I in the IPM of Nicholas Criol. Juliana his wife
was the daughter of John de Sandwich as outlined by the
following. Folkeston descended via Hamo de Crevequer.
'The IPM of Mabel Tregoz, 25 Edw I, widow of William de
Crevequer and John Tregoz (CIPM, v. 3 no. 412) regarding
the manor of Weston, Beds.
'The genealogy laid out goes thus
William d'Avranches
I
Maud d'Avranche = Hamo de Crevequer
I
1. William = Mabel = (2) John Tregoz
2. Agnes
3. John
4. Juliana aged 23 plus in 25 Edw I = Richard Weyland
2. Iseult
3. John de Lenham 30 years plus
3. Eleanor aged 60 years plus '
Following on the above, I have found statements (unfortunately
from unsourced websites) stating that this Richard de Weyland died in
1306, or before 1311. At that date or soon thereafter, it is
documented that Juliana his widow married John de Segrave, younger son
of Sir John de Segrave, 2nd Lord Segrave (d.ca. 1325). The heir to
Juliana's share of a third of Folkestone was their son John de
Segrave, of Folkestone, who d. in July 1349. This John's heir was his
cousin John, Lord Segrave [CP Vol. XI, p. 609 and note n on the same
page, citing CIPM vol. ix, no. 598].
Given the evidence cited by Copinger concerning Richard de Weyland
of Blaxhall, Suffolk & c., and his wife Joan, including a fine of 1313
levied as to the manors of Blaxhall, Middleton, Wantisden and
Cockfield, Suffolk [Vol. II, p. 124 citing 'Feet of Fines, 6 Edw. II.
33'] it is clear that there were two distinct individuals named
Richard: one the brother of John de Weyland (d. 1312], and the other
the son and heir of John de Weyland, and father of the heiress Cecily
de Weyland (subsequently Lady Burghersh).
Many thanks to Rosie Bevan for locating and reviewing the new
evidence cited.
Tuesday, 28 May, 2002
Dear Rosie, Douglas, et al.,
Two sources of information have raised issues as to both the ancestry of
the issue of Sir Thomas de Weyland, one-time Lord Chief Justice of the King's
Bench (d. in exile, 1291 or later), and the exact line of descent from Sir
Thomas to Cecily de Weyland, heiress of her father (Sir Richard) and wife of
Bartholomew de Burghersh, Lord Burghersh (d. 1369).
The first source, alleging that the Weyland or Welond family 'had been
the original Anglo-Norman grantees' of Tulachrothan and other lands in
' 1283 (Quinzaine of St. Martin). Final concord
made in the King's court at Westminster, in the
quinzaine of St. Martin, a. r. 12, before John
de Lobetot, Roger of Leicester, and William de
Burnton, justices between Thomas Welond, Margery
his wife, Richard their son, complainants, and
William le Gras, deforciant, whereby a plea of
agreement was made between them, to wit, that
the said William acknowledged the manor of
Sobbit (i.e. Sodbbury) to be the right of the
said Richard to hold to the said Thomas,
Margery, and Richard, and the heirs body of
Richard, of the lords of the fee for ever;
with reversion in fee to John, son of Thomas
Welond, after Thomas's and Margery's death, if
Richard should have no heirs of his body.
Warranty by William; and for this acknowledge-
ment, warranty, fine and concord, the said
Thomas granted in exchange to the said William
all the lands, & c., which William previously
had of the gift of William Welond, Thomas's
brother, in Tulachrothan, Rathbolgan,
Gurtuelem and Balydine, Ireland, to hold to
the said William le Gras in fee; paying 1d.
at Easter, and rendering for Thomas to the
chief lords of the fee all other services
belonging to the said tenements in Ireland.
Warranty of the tenements in Ireland by
Thomas and his heirs to the said William le
Gras.' [1]
Evidently the Weyland family in fact had established rights in Ireland,
to which Sir Thomas was heir, but over which there was some dispute. Sir
Thomas had (according to Copinger) inherited the Suffolk manors of the family
at Brandeston, Westerfield & c. from his elder brother William, who d. in
1274 (shortly after their father, Sir John). This is the first indication I
have seen of such a connection between the Weyland family and tenancies in
Ireland.
<<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>
There were 2 Richard Weylands.
Thomas Weyland m. 1st Anne Colvill & their son John d. 1312 m. Mary Braose & had a son Richard b 1290. Richard was 22 yrs. old at his dad John's inquisition. This Richard WASN'T the father of Cecily.
Thomas Weyland m. 2nd Margery Moese. Their son was Richard d. 1319 m. to Joan Ufford & had a daughter Cecily. At Richard's inquisition he held only the Manor of Onehouse & it mentions his wife Joan & daughter Cecily.
https://archive.org/details/cu31924099427845/page/n173/mode/2up
The Manor of Onhus/Onehouse was given to Margery Moese & her son Richard in 1291.
https://books.google.com/books?id=GwtKAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=margery+de+moese&source=bl&ots=jKl5kOpq5F&sig=ACfU3U0rL4uBMSjY909L1-5wBcs5D6NTEA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwia772u8rTsAhX5lXIEHRpfD5E4FBDoATAJegQIAhAC#v=onepage&q=margery%20de%20moese&f=false
Clearly there were two different Richards. One the half-brother of John & the dad to Cecily Burghersh & the other one John's son.
I don't think there is a specific source declaring that Thomas had two wives.
In fact, there is apparently a source declaring that Mary outlived him (and thus he had no second wife).
This was discussed here in October 2005, I will have to find that thread.....
Will Johnson
2021-06-29 21:14:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nancy
Wednesday, 5 June, 2002
Hello All,
On the question of Richard de Weyland, son of Thomas, additional
evidence has been found that clearly shows (together with that
previously posted and referred to below) Richard died without direct
heirs, and that the succeeding holder of his lands was either his
brother John or nephew Richard.
The following are (A) two writs from the reign of Edward I, and
(B) information extracted from the IPM of Mabel Tregoz, nee FitzWarin,
wife successively of William de Creverquer of Folkestone, Kent and
John de Tregoz, Lord Tregoz (d. 1300).
A. '18 Edw I - Richard Weyland, son of Sir Thomas Weyland and
Margery, as mentioned below.
Thomas de Weyland qui pro felonia regum abjuravit. Breve
de manerio de Anhus [On hus] liberando Margeriae uxori
praedictae Thomae et Ricardo filio eorundem asserentibus
se, una cum praedicto Thoma, de manerio conjunctim fuisse
feoffatos' [Calendarium Genealogicum v. 2 p. 753]
This is a writ of 1290 authorising the release of Anhus
manor to Margery and Richard, as he and Sir Thomas were
jointly enfeoffed.'
'30 Edw I
Ricardus de Weylond et Juliana uxor ejus. De non respondendo
coram custode Quinque Portuum super debitis contractibus aut
transgressionibus infra Baroniam de Folkestan de qua ipsi
Ricardus et Juliana tenent tertiam partem de Rege in capite'
B. 'Sir Richard Weyland was mentioned as Lord of Folkeston in
31 Edward I in the IPM of Nicholas Criol. Juliana his wife
was the daughter of John de Sandwich as outlined by the
following. Folkeston descended via Hamo de Crevequer.
'The IPM of Mabel Tregoz, 25 Edw I, widow of William de
Crevequer and John Tregoz (CIPM, v. 3 no. 412) regarding
the manor of Weston, Beds.
'The genealogy laid out goes thus
William d'Avranches
I
Maud d'Avranche = Hamo de Crevequer
I
1. William = Mabel = (2) John Tregoz
2. Agnes
3. John
4. Juliana aged 23 plus in 25 Edw I = Richard Weyland
2. Iseult
3. John de Lenham 30 years plus
3. Eleanor aged 60 years plus '
Following on the above, I have found statements (unfortunately
from unsourced websites) stating that this Richard de Weyland died in
1306, or before 1311. At that date or soon thereafter, it is
documented that Juliana his widow married John de Segrave, younger son
of Sir John de Segrave, 2nd Lord Segrave (d.ca. 1325). The heir to
Juliana's share of a third of Folkestone was their son John de
Segrave, of Folkestone, who d. in July 1349. This John's heir was his
cousin John, Lord Segrave [CP Vol. XI, p. 609 and note n on the same
page, citing CIPM vol. ix, no. 598].
Given the evidence cited by Copinger concerning Richard de Weyland
of Blaxhall, Suffolk & c., and his wife Joan, including a fine of 1313
levied as to the manors of Blaxhall, Middleton, Wantisden and
Cockfield, Suffolk [Vol. II, p. 124 citing 'Feet of Fines, 6 Edw. II.
33'] it is clear that there were two distinct individuals named
Richard: one the brother of John de Weyland (d. 1312], and the other
the son and heir of John de Weyland, and father of the heiress Cecily
de Weyland (subsequently Lady Burghersh).
Many thanks to Rosie Bevan for locating and reviewing the new
evidence cited.
Tuesday, 28 May, 2002
Dear Rosie, Douglas, et al.,
Two sources of information have raised issues as to both the ancestry of
the issue of Sir Thomas de Weyland, one-time Lord Chief Justice of the King's
Bench (d. in exile, 1291 or later), and the exact line of descent from Sir
Thomas to Cecily de Weyland, heiress of her father (Sir Richard) and wife of
Bartholomew de Burghersh, Lord Burghersh (d. 1369).
The first source, alleging that the Weyland or Welond family 'had been
the original Anglo-Norman grantees' of Tulachrothan and other lands in
' 1283 (Quinzaine of St. Martin). Final concord
made in the King's court at Westminster, in the
quinzaine of St. Martin, a. r. 12, before John
de Lobetot, Roger of Leicester, and William de
Burnton, justices between Thomas Welond, Margery
his wife, Richard their son, complainants, and
William le Gras, deforciant, whereby a plea of
agreement was made between them, to wit, that
the said William acknowledged the manor of
Sobbit (i.e. Sodbbury) to be the right of the
said Richard to hold to the said Thomas,
Margery, and Richard, and the heirs body of
Richard, of the lords of the fee for ever;
with reversion in fee to John, son of Thomas
Welond, after Thomas's and Margery's death, if
Richard should have no heirs of his body.
Warranty by William; and for this acknowledge-
ment, warranty, fine and concord, the said
Thomas granted in exchange to the said William
all the lands, & c., which William previously
had of the gift of William Welond, Thomas's
brother, in Tulachrothan, Rathbolgan,
Gurtuelem and Balydine, Ireland, to hold to
the said William le Gras in fee; paying 1d.
at Easter, and rendering for Thomas to the
chief lords of the fee all other services
belonging to the said tenements in Ireland.
Warranty of the tenements in Ireland by
Thomas and his heirs to the said William le
Gras.' [1]
Evidently the Weyland family in fact had established rights in Ireland,
to which Sir Thomas was heir, but over which there was some dispute. Sir
Thomas had (according to Copinger) inherited the Suffolk manors of the family
at Brandeston, Westerfield & c. from his elder brother William, who d. in
1274 (shortly after their father, Sir John). This is the first indication I
have seen of such a connection between the Weyland family and tenancies in
Ireland.
<<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>
There were 2 Richard Weylands.
Thomas Weyland m. 1st Anne Colvill & their son John d. 1312 m. Mary Braose & had a son Richard b 1290. Richard was 22 yrs. old at his dad John's inquisition. This Richard WASN'T the father of Cecily.
Thomas Weyland m. 2nd Margery Moese. Their son was Richard d. 1319 m. to Joan Ufford & had a daughter Cecily. At Richard's inquisition he held only the Manor of Onehouse & it mentions his wife Joan & daughter Cecily.
https://archive.org/details/cu31924099427845/page/n173/mode/2up
The Manor of Onhus/Onehouse was given to Margery Moese & her son Richard in 1291.
https://books.google.com/books?id=GwtKAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=margery+de+moese&source=bl&ots=jKl5kOpq5F&sig=ACfU3U0rL4uBMSjY909L1-5wBcs5D6NTEA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwia772u8rTsAhX5lXIEHRpfD5E4FBDoATAJegQIAhAC#v=onepage&q=margery%20de%20moese&f=false
Clearly there were two different Richards. One the half-brother of John & the dad to Cecily Burghersh & the other one John's son.
Will you post the citation to John Weyland's d1312 IPM ?
taf
2021-06-29 23:34:45 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
Will you post the citation to John Weyland's d1312 IPM ?
Cal IPM vol V (Edward II 1307-1316)

#390 (p. 214) John de Weilaunde alias de Weylaund
#424 (p. 242) John Weylond alias de Weylond alias Weilande

taf
Will Johnson
2021-06-30 02:56:12 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by Will Johnson
Will you post the citation to John Weyland's d1312 IPM ?
Cal IPM vol V (Edward II 1307-1316)
#390 (p. 214) John de Weilaunde alias de Weylaund
#424 (p. 242) John Weylond alias de Weylond alias Weilande
taf
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Calendar_of_Inquisitions_Post_Mortem_and/z0oRAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA214&printsec=frontcover
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