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A correction for the Henry II Project
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Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-05-26 12:54:28 UTC
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The Henry II Project has been inactive for years but, for whenever Stewart Baldwin decides to work on it again, I have a correction for the following page:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/louis000.htm. It says that Pepin I of Aquitaine chronologically couldn't be father-in-law of Rather of Limoges and Gerard of Auvergne. However, that's not really true. There would have been a huge age gap between them and their wifes but that was common at the time. It's merely true that he chronologically couldn't be grandfather of Ramnulf I of Aquitaine, who must have been son of a previous wife of Gerard. In https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/KlfyvwDwXUk/G25Uzc57eLQJ, Peter Stewart has a good account of this.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-06-16 08:09:39 UTC
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BTW, does anyone have any thoughts on this? Dear Peter, have any of your opinions on this changed since?
Peter Stewart
2020-06-16 08:40:21 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
BTW, does anyone have any thoughts on this? Dear Peter, have any of your opinions on this changed since?
If I am the Peter you are asking, I don't know what you are referring to
- can you specify the Henry Project page where you found something on
which I had given an opinion?

Peter Stewart
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-06-16 09:17:02 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
BTW, does anyone have any thoughts on this? Dear Peter, have any of your opinions on this changed since?
If I am the Peter you are asking, I don't know what you are referring to
- can you specify the Henry Project page where you found something on
which I had given an opinion?
Peter Stewart
In my first post, I already linked to both the Henry II Project and your old post. Also, to clarify, you weren't commenting on the Henry II Project Page, you wrote on the same subject years before that page was created.
Peter Stewart
2020-06-16 10:29:18 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
BTW, does anyone have any thoughts on this? Dear Peter, have any of your opinions on this changed since?
If I am the Peter you are asking, I don't know what you are referring to
- can you specify the Henry Project page where you found something on
which I had given an opinion?
Peter Stewart
In my first post, I already linked to both the Henry II Project and your old post. Also, to clarify, you weren't commenting on the Henry II Project Page, you wrote on the same subject years before that page was created.
Your first post doesn't show up in my email unless you copy it into your
second - now that I have gone to Google Groups I can see what you meant,
but otherwise I would still be in the dark.

For the benefit of any reader who has not double-checked, the first post
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
The Henry II Project has been inactive for years but, for whenever
Stewart Baldwin decides to work on it again, I have a correction
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/louis000.htm. It
says that Pepin I of Aquitaine chronologically couldn't be father-in-
law of Rather of Limoges and Gerard of Auvergne. However, that's not
really true. There would have been a huge age gap between them and
their wifes but that was common at the time. It's merely true that
he chronologically couldn't be grandfather of Ramnulf I of
Aquitaine, who must have been son of a previous wife of Gerard. In
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/KlfyvwDwXUk
/G25Uzc57eLQJ, Peter Stewart has a good account of this.
I haven't changed my thoughts on this - whether or not Gerard of
Auvergne ever married a daughter of Pepin I of Aquitaine, his son
Ramnulf must have been by a prior wife.

According to Ademar of Chabannes, Ramnulf was related to Raino, count of
Herbauge, and if correct this was probably through Ramnulf's unknown
mother. Pepin's wife Ringart was daughter of Theodebert of Madrie, and a
connection to Raino cannot be established through her - although this in
itself is not compelling against Ramnulf's having been Pepin's grandson.
The chronology, however, does preclude it.

Léonce Auzias in 1934 considered whether "gener quondam Pippini" and
"Pippini gener" in the Astronomer's life of Louis the Pious might have
referred to Charlemagne's son, the king of Italy, rather than to Louis
I's son, the king of Aquitaine; but clearly from the context only the
latter can be admitted, unless we are to suppose that the Astronomer was
so confused or absent-minded as to render his information unreliable in
the first place.

Friedrich Schmidt in 1900 suggested that "gener" meant brother-in-law
rather than son-in-law of Pepin, while wrongly supposing that Rathier of
Limoges was the same person as Ruachar, count in the Linzgau, whom he
thought to be the eldest brother of empress Judith - but in that case
the man would have been brother-in-law to the living Louis the Pious as
well as to the emperor's deceased son Pepin at the time Astronomer was
recounting.

Auzias (1934) followed by Karl Ferdinand Werner (1967) also interpreted
"gener" as brother-in-law, the latter proposing that Louis I's daughters
Rotrude and Hildegarde were perhaps the wives of Gerard and Rathier in
question. Nonetheless, as argued by Christian Settipani (1993), it would
make little sense for the Astronomer to mention the relationship of
Gerard and Rathier as brothers-in-law to the late king rather than their
concomitant relationship as sons-in-law to the emperor himself, who is
central in the passage.

Pepin I had two daughters by his wife according to the mid-11th century
Miracles of St Genulf. I don't see a problem with this or with their
alleged marriages to Gerard and Rathier. Jean Mabillon noted that some
had thought the grandmother of St Geraud of Aurillac was a daughter of
Pepin named Mathilde, which would complicate the question, but there is
no medieval source for this ancestry which appears to have been invented
by the Carmelite priest Géraud Vigier (Dominique de Jésus) in 1635.

There is no compelling reason to regard Ramnulf as a Carolingian
descendant in order to account for the alleged imperial ancestry of Hugo
Capet's wife Adelais, who may have been his great-great-granddaughter -
if she belonged to this lineage in the first place (which I doubt), the
Carolingian connection must have come through at least one female link
and could just as well have traced through two or more.

Peter Stewart

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