Discussion:
looking for Avenell/Hewes (Huyshe or Huyshe)
(too old to reply)
t***@gmail.com
2018-06-22 00:06:26 UTC
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Looking for information regarding Johanna Avenell 1425-1490, daughter of John 1384-1460. Johanna married Oliver Huyshe son of John of Doniford. I can find nothing past her fathers name. any help with ancestry out there?
Vance Mead
2018-06-22 06:09:24 UTC
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Where did they live?

There were several John Avenells in the records of Common pleas. For example:

1420 / d 1966
Devon. John Avenell, of Blakepole, versus Thomas Bykele, of Beauford (Beaford), gent, kinsman of Thomas Clayssh. Debt.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H5/CP40no636/bCP40no636dorses/IMG_1966.htm

1448 / d 1525
Devon. Robert Sedburgh versus John Avenell, of Lackebeare (Loxbeare), gentleman; and Alexander Veysy, of Dupealler, husbandman. Trespass breach of close at Forde, Tyverton.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no748/bCP40no748dorses/IMG_1525.htm

1455 / d 1165
Devon. John Hacche versus John Avenell, of West Exe, gentleman. Trespass breach of close at West Ex.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no776/bCP40no776dorses/IMG_1165.htm
t***@gmail.com
2018-06-22 13:53:14 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
Where did they live?
1420 / d 1966
Devon. John Avenell, of Blakepole, versus Thomas Bykele, of Beauford (Beaford), gent, kinsman of Thomas Clayssh. Debt.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H5/CP40no636/bCP40no636dorses/IMG_1966.htm
1448 / d 1525
Devon. Robert Sedburgh versus John Avenell, of Lackebeare (Loxbeare), gentleman; and Alexander Veysy, of Dupealler, husbandman. Trespass breach of close at Forde, Tyverton.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no748/bCP40no748dorses/IMG_1525.htm
1455 / d 1165
Devon. John Hacche versus John Avenell, of West Exe, gentleman. Trespass breach of close at West Ex.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no776/bCP40no776dorses/IMG_1165.htm
My John Avenell was from Blackpool, the only information that I have is from the following link
https://books.google.com/books?id=oapCAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA32&dq=Huysh,+Somerset&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi28cSC25rbAhXyqlkKHbQPBfYQ6AEIKzAA#v=onepage&q=avenell&f=false

it mentions 3 daughters shared his estate at his death but nothing to help with finding out more about his family. I tried following up on the other daughters but . . . . .
Vance Mead
2018-06-22 15:01:29 UTC
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As far as I can figure out, Blackpool is not the one in Lancashire but in Devon. There were a few Blackpools in Devon, but the most likely in this case is a hamlet in South Molton.

Beaford in that case would not be in Somerset but in Devon, about 20 miles from South Molton. The parish of Huish is not far from Beaford. That could be the origin of the surname of Oliver Huyshe.

Further back, the Avenell family seem to have been established at Loxbeare, Devon, since the 13th century. But one step at a time.


https://books.google.fi/books?id=YMmX7QdO-OkC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=blackpool+devon+south+molton+avenell&source=bl&ots=z5uI3UbKca&sig=-OnpGyC0jGaIZtqmtXR-FqHP2_g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjStKGzwufbAhWjd5oKHfXtD7AQ6AEIRTAE#v=onepage&q=blackpool%20devon%20south%20molton%20avenell&f=false
Vance Mead
2018-06-23 07:38:57 UTC
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John Avenell of Blackpool, South Molton, was apparently a younger son of Robert Avenell, (though I don't know what evidence this based on). Links below.

They had been living in South Molton and in Loxbear, about 15 miles away, since the 13th century.

The manor of Meshaw in South Molton belonged to the Avenells during the thirteenth and part of the fourteenth century.

The manor of Loxbear belonged to the family of Avenell during the reign of Henry II and until the 1420s.

Next week I'll check if they're in the Poll Tax returns of 1377-81.

http://www.wykes.org/nthwyke.html

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/magna-britannia/vol6/pp326-360#h3-0022

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/magna-britannia/vol6/pp306-326#p85
t***@gmail.com
2018-06-24 15:39:13 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
John Avenell of Blackpool, South Molton, was apparently a younger son of Robert Avenell, (though I don't know what evidence this based on). Links below.
They had been living in South Molton and in Loxbear, about 15 miles away, since the 13th century.
The manor of Meshaw in South Molton belonged to the Avenells during the thirteenth and part of the fourteenth century.
The manor of Loxbear belonged to the family of Avenell during the reign of Henry II and until the 1420s.
Next week I'll check if they're in the Poll Tax returns of 1377-81.
http://www.wykes.org/nthwyke.html
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/magna-britannia/vol6/pp326-360#h3-0022
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/magna-britannia/vol6/pp306-326#p85
Thank you, I had tentatively placed Robert as his father but I couldn't find anything to support it. I really appreciate your help!
t***@gmail.com
2018-06-24 15:54:03 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Vance Mead
John Avenell of Blackpool, South Molton, was apparently a younger son of Robert Avenell, (though I don't know what evidence this based on). Links below.
They had been living in South Molton and in Loxbear, about 15 miles away, since the 13th century.
The manor of Meshaw in South Molton belonged to the Avenells during the thirteenth and part of the fourteenth century.
The manor of Loxbear belonged to the family of Avenell during the reign of Henry II and until the 1420s.
Next week I'll check if they're in the Poll Tax returns of 1377-81.
http://www.wykes.org/nthwyke.html
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/magna-britannia/vol6/pp326-360#h3-0022
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/magna-britannia/vol6/pp306-326#p85
Thank you, I had tentatively placed Robert as his father but I couldn't find anything to support it. I really appreciate your help!
from your links, it confirms my daughter "Johanna" got ripped off by her sisters, or through her fathers will, in regards to property, maybe she was the youngest who knows now right.
Vance Mead
2018-06-25 04:57:24 UTC
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Since they were landowners, it should be possible to trace them farther back, though the information might not be available online.

They had land around South Molton and in Loxbeare near Tiverton, about 15 miles away. They appear to have had the manor of Loxbeare since 1219, and still had it in 1420. I don't know how the two families or branches might be related. They had been there for 200 years, so the two families might be distant cousins.

There was a Robert son of William Avenel claiming land in Wykelegh (probably Withleigh) near Tiverton and Loxbeare in 1349. This wouldn't be the same Robert as mentioned before, since this one would have been born in or before 1328.

From Inquisitions Post Mortem (link below)
Warkleigh is a few miles from South Molton:
1420
1/2 fee (in Warkleigh) which John Avenell holds, annual value 50s.;

1420
John Avenell held to himself and his heirs the manor of Loxbeare of him by knight service, annual value nil except when the tenant dies.

From Common Pleas
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no656/bCP40no656dorses/IMG_1684.htm
Hilary (January) term 1425
Devon. John Avenell junior versus Alexander Loddenen or Loddeven, and others, for trespass: assault at Lokkesbeare.

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E3/CP40no359/aCP40no359mm1toEnd/IMG_8788.htm
Michaelmas term 1349
Devon. John de Puntyngdon versus Robert the son of William Avenel, for four messuages, 6 furlongs land in Wykelegh (probably Withleigh) near Tiverton, which Robert claims.

Inquisitions post mortem:
http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk

Common Pleas:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40_Indices.html

Feet of Fines
https://archive.org/stream/publications61devo#page/n137/mode/2up/search/avenell
Vance Mead
2018-06-25 06:41:06 UTC
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Below is a more complete version of something I posted before. Here it says that:

"Richard married Elizabeth, daughter and co-heir of John Avenell, of Blackpool, in South Molton, by Joan, his wife, daughter and heir of Walter Gambon, of Blackpool and Moreston. The said John was a younger son of Robert Avenell, of Loxbeare."

So it appears John came originally from Loxbeare. There must be one generation between Robert his father and Robert the son of William Avenel.

http://www.wykes.org/wykefami.html
Vance Mead
2018-06-25 14:53:47 UTC
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This is a history of the feudal landholding of the manor of Loxbeare, Devon. There must be one more Robert between Robert in 1346 and John in 1428.

From:
Inquisitions and Assessments relating to Feudal Aids

https://archive.org/stream/inquisitionsasse01grea#page/n7/mode/2up

Loxbeare
p. 319, 1284-1286
William Avenel holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockisbear of (feudal chain up to the king).

p. 370, 1303
Robert Avenel holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockesbere.

p. 433, 1346
Robert Avenel holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockysbeare, of the honor of Barstaple, which Robert Avenel once held.

p. 490, 1428
John Avenyll holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockesbear, which Robert Avenyll once held.
t***@gmail.com
2018-06-25 19:28:37 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
This is a history of the feudal landholding of the manor of Loxbeare, Devon. There must be one more Robert between Robert in 1346 and John in 1428.
Inquisitions and Assessments relating to Feudal Aids
https://archive.org/stream/inquisitionsasse01grea#page/n7/mode/2up
Loxbeare
p. 319, 1284-1286
William Avenel holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockisbear of (feudal chain up to the king).
p. 370, 1303
Robert Avenel holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockesbere.
p. 433, 1346
Robert Avenel holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockysbeare, of the honor of Barstaple, which Robert Avenel once held.
p. 490, 1428
John Avenyll holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockesbear, which Robert Avenyll once held.
Hi Vance, thank you. I've been trying to work my way down too from William Avenel died 1128 married to Emma fitz Baldwin daughter of Baldwin de Brionne whose father was Richard de Brionne son of gilbert Crispin son of Godfrey Count of Ewe to Richard Normandy.

William had one son Randolph/Ralph Avenel born before 1129 who married Matilda de Redvers who I think was the daughter of Baldwin de Reviers, earl of devon by Lucy de Clare his 2nd wife, whose parents are Agnes of Chester and Richard de Clare.

now I just need to connect his son whomever he is to the william Avenel of Locksbere you found! Terri
taf
2018-06-25 20:49:38 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
Hi Vance, thank you. I've been trying to work my way down
too from William Avenel died 1128 married to Emma fitz
Baldwin daughter of Baldwin de Brionne whose father was
Richard de Brionne son of gilbert Crispin son of Godfrey
Count of Ewe to Richard Normandy.
William had one son Randolph/Ralph Avenel born before 1129
who married Matilda de Redvers who I think was the daughter
of Baldwin de Reviers, earl of devon by Lucy de Clare his
2nd wife, whose parents are Agnes of Chester and Richard de
Clare.
I don't have my Avenel notes handy, but you need to be a little bit careful here. For some reason, some of the old antiquarians erroneously combined these two Baldwins into one chimeric individual, alternatively given either the Brionne or Redvers parentage. It looks to me like you have two alternative versions of the same relationship, particularly given that were the relationships as you show them, in the younger generation the spouses would both be great-grandchildren of Gilbert of Brionne, and hence related within a prohibited degree.

taf
t***@gmail.com
2018-06-25 22:07:32 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by t***@gmail.com
Hi Vance, thank you. I've been trying to work my way down
too from William Avenel died 1128 married to Emma fitz
Baldwin daughter of Baldwin de Brionne whose father was
Richard de Brionne son of gilbert Crispin son of Godfrey
Count of Ewe to Richard Normandy.
William had one son Randolph/Ralph Avenel born before 1129
who married Matilda de Redvers who I think was the daughter
of Baldwin de Reviers, earl of devon by Lucy de Clare his
2nd wife, whose parents are Agnes of Chester and Richard de
Clare.
I don't have my Avenel notes handy, but you need to be a little bit careful here. For some reason, some of the old antiquarians erroneously combined these two Baldwins into one chimeric individual, alternatively given either the Brionne or Redvers parentage. It looks to me like you have two alternative versions of the same relationship, particularly given that were the relationships as you show them, in the younger generation the spouses would both be great-grandchildren of Gilbert of Brionne, and hence related within a prohibited degree.
taf
thanks, what you say makes perfect sense. I haven't done any really deep dives on this info yet as I'm working on someone else now along with John Avenel whom we have been corresponding about. I only connect people to my tree with proven links. I don't want to put people there when there is no proof it is correct or made up or just wrong as I often find as I'm sure you do as well. Terri
Peter Stewart
2018-06-25 22:40:21 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Vance Mead
This is a history of the feudal landholding of the manor of Loxbeare, Devon. There must be one more Robert between Robert in 1346 and John in 1428.
Inquisitions and Assessments relating to Feudal Aids
https://archive.org/stream/inquisitionsasse01grea#page/n7/mode/2up
Loxbeare
p. 319, 1284-1286
William Avenel holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockisbear of (feudal chain up to the king).
p. 370, 1303
Robert Avenel holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockesbere.
p. 433, 1346
Robert Avenel holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockysbeare, of the honor of Barstaple, which Robert Avenel once held.
p. 490, 1428
John Avenyll holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockesbear, which Robert Avenyll once held.
Hi Vance, thank you. I've been trying to work my way down too from William Avenel died 1128 married to Emma fitz Baldwin daughter of Baldwin de Brionne whose father was Richard de Brionne son of gilbert Crispin son of Godfrey Count of Ewe to Richard Normandy.
William had one son Randolph/Ralph Avenel born before 1129 who married Matilda de Redvers who I think was the daughter of Baldwin de Reviers, earl of devon by Lucy de Clare his 2nd wife, whose parents are Agnes of Chester and Richard de Clare.
I don't know where this information comes from but it seems very confused:

The man called Baldwin de Brionne (more usually known as Baldwin de Meulles) was the second son of Gilbert, count of Eu - the spelling "Ewe" suggests you may be relying on a 19th-century antiquarian, that is not a safe basis for this (if for any) family. Baldwin was a younger brother, not son, of the Clare ancestor Richard fitz Gilbert.

He may have been married twice, but in any event he had a wife named Emma - they had at least two daughters, neither of whom is known to have been named after her mother. One of these married Ranulf Avenel, not William, as her second husband.

Lucy the second wife of Baldwin de Redvers, earl of Devon, was not born a Clare - she was most probably the widow of Richard fitz Gilbert's childless great-grandson Gilbert, 1st earl of Hertford (aka earl of Clare).

Peter Stewart
t***@gmail.com
2018-06-26 00:14:45 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Vance Mead
This is a history of the feudal landholding of the manor of Loxbeare, Devon. There must be one more Robert between Robert in 1346 and John in 1428.
Inquisitions and Assessments relating to Feudal Aids
https://archive.org/stream/inquisitionsasse01grea#page/n7/mode/2up
Loxbeare
p. 319, 1284-1286
William Avenel holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockisbear of (feudal chain up to the king).
p. 370, 1303
Robert Avenel holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockesbere.
p. 433, 1346
Robert Avenel holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockysbeare, of the honor of Barstaple, which Robert Avenel once held.
p. 490, 1428
John Avenyll holds a quarter part of a fee in Lockesbear, which Robert Avenyll once held.
Hi Vance, thank you. I've been trying to work my way down too from William Avenel died 1128 married to Emma fitz Baldwin daughter of Baldwin de Brionne whose father was Richard de Brionne son of gilbert Crispin son of Godfrey Count of Ewe to Richard Normandy.
William had one son Randolph/Ralph Avenel born before 1129 who married Matilda de Redvers who I think was the daughter of Baldwin de Reviers, earl of devon by Lucy de Clare his 2nd wife, whose parents are Agnes of Chester and Richard de Clare.
The man called Baldwin de Brionne (more usually known as Baldwin de Meulles) was the second son of Gilbert, count of Eu - the spelling "Ewe" suggests you may be relying on a 19th-century antiquarian, that is not a safe basis for this (if for any) family. Baldwin was a younger brother, not son, of the Clare ancestor Richard fitz Gilbert.
He may have been married twice, but in any event he had a wife named Emma - they had at least two daughters, neither of whom is known to have been named after her mother. One of these married Ranulf Avenel, not William, as her second husband.
Lucy the second wife of Baldwin de Redvers, earl of Devon, was not born a Clare - she was most probably the widow of Richard fitz Gilbert's childless great-grandson Gilbert, 1st earl of Hertford (aka earl of Clare).
Peter Stewart
Hi Mr. Stewart, one of the links on a previous post from vance sent me in a direction that I had never looked at, how my possible ancestor, Ralph or maybe Randolph Avenel should have been the feudal baron of Okehampton but he lost out to a cousin. I had not looked that far ahead and thought that maybe I could work my way down. Yes the statement I made earlier didn't make sense, it was what I gleaned from a late in time source I found on a quick check on the net like you thought. I would love to look into this with primary sources and plan to do so later when I get a little more time. thank you so much for your post! Terri
Vance Mead
2018-06-26 04:50:42 UTC
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Going back to the feet of fines I mentioned earlier:

p.49
https://archive.org/stream/publications61devo#page/n137/mode/2up

In 1219. Between Hamelin son of Richard de Wanford and Avelina widow of Robert Avenel. Hamelin claimed the manor of Loxbeare by right of inheritance from his ancestor (mort d'ancestor). She acknowledged his right and paid him two marks. He granted it to her and her heirs for service of a quarter part of a knight’s fee.

In the Book of Fees in 1242-43:
http://www.melocki.org.uk/liber/PartII_1242.html

Robert Avenel holds one fee in Lockesbere.

So this would be the descent from Robert and Avelina in 1219 to John in 1428: Robert, Robert, William, Robert, Robert, Robert, John.
t***@gmail.com
2018-06-26 14:48:02 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
p.49
https://archive.org/stream/publications61devo#page/n137/mode/2up
In 1219. Between Hamelin son of Richard de Wanford and Avelina widow of Robert Avenel. Hamelin claimed the manor of Loxbeare by right of inheritance from his ancestor (mort d'ancestor). She acknowledged his right and paid him two marks. He granted it to her and her heirs for service of a quarter part of a knight’s fee.
http://www.melocki.org.uk/liber/PartII_1242.html
Robert Avenel holds one fee in Lockesbere.
So this would be the descent from Robert and Avelina in 1219 to John in 1428: Robert, Robert, William, Robert, Robert, Robert, John.
Mr Mead, I can not thank you enough for you interest in my post. Your replies are going to help me find better supporting facts on some of my other searches as I have bookmarked them for easy reference and have already used the Inquisitions and assessment link for the Wogan's of wales that I am working on now as well. as I am NOT a professional in this field which is probably blatantly obvious but a type A person that only wants the truth on my tree. Terri
Vance Mead
2018-06-26 15:26:00 UTC
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If you haven't visited this site already, I recommend it. He has a massive amount of links to information online, plus his own work on feet of fines.


http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sources/olmed.shtml
t***@gmail.com
2018-06-26 16:00:28 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
If you haven't visited this site already, I recommend it. He has a massive amount of links to information online, plus his own work on feet of fines.
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sources/olmed.shtml
thank you, this looks like it's going to be a wonderful site!
Vance Mead
2018-06-30 04:35:28 UTC
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I checked in the Poll Tax Returns of 1377-81 (the published work by Carolyn Fenwick). There's very little for Devon and nothing for Loxbeare.
t***@gmail.com
2018-07-01 02:55:04 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
I checked in the Poll Tax Returns of 1377-81 (the published work by Carolyn Fenwick). There's very little for Devon and nothing for Loxbeare.
Hi Vance, are you familiar with the book The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundel by John Pym Yeatman, 1882. p. 196 has an interesting theory that the Avenels and the Say family are probably the same. Out of the realm of my knowledge but an interesting theory. Terri
Vance Mead
2018-07-01 05:58:45 UTC
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Hi Terri. I'm not familiar with that. I glanced at it, but don't really know what to make it. It's outside of my limited range of knowledge. Vance
Post by t***@gmail.com
Hi Vance, are you familiar with the book The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundel by John Pym Yeatman, 1882. p. 196 has an interesting theory that the Avenels and the Say family are probably the same. Out of the realm of my knowledge but an interesting theory. Terri
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