Discussion:
Confirm Anne Couvent as Gateway Ancestor to Henry III?
(too old to reply)
Girl57
2020-10-08 16:47:44 UTC
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Hi, everyone. Haven't been around for a while but glad to be back.

In working on French Canadian genealogy, found my 10th great-grandmother, Anne Couvent, b. abt 1604 at Brecy, St-Michel, Aisne, Picardie, France, who is listed in several spots as a gateway ancestor to French nobility and King Henry III. Anne m. Philippe Amiot/Amyot abt 1626 and went to New France abt 1635 or a bit before. She died 25 Dec 1675 in Quebec. Her parents were Guillaume Couvent and Antoinette de Longueval.

I am a complete novice at this and wonder about reputable people or sites to consult to confirm this. How are the below?

https://www.magnacharta.com/gateway-ancestors/

http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/qrd30.htm

Would appreciate any insight or suggestions. Thanks a lot. Jinny
P J Evans
2020-10-08 16:57:28 UTC
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Post by Girl57
Hi, everyone. Haven't been around for a while but glad to be back.
In working on French Canadian genealogy, found my 10th great-grandmother, Anne Couvent, b. abt 1604 at Brecy, St-Michel, Aisne, Picardie, France, who is listed in several spots as a gateway ancestor to French nobility and King Henry III. Anne m. Philippe Amiot/Amyot abt 1626 and went to New France abt 1635 or a bit before. She died 25 Dec 1675 in Quebec. Her parents were Guillaume Couvent and Antoinette de Longueval.
I am a complete novice at this and wonder about reputable people or sites to consult to confirm this. How are the below?
https://www.magnacharta.com/gateway-ancestors/
http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/qrd30.htm
Would appreciate any insight or suggestions. Thanks a lot. Jinny
Francogene, I think, is fairly reliable. (My sis-in-law's stepfather has one of the Couvent sisters on his tree.)
Denis Beauregard
2020-10-08 16:58:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Girl57
Hi, everyone. Haven't been around for a while but glad to be back.
In working on French Canadian genealogy, found my 10th great-grandmother, Anne Couvent, b. abt 1604 at Brecy, St-Michel, Aisne, Picardie, France, who is listed in several spots as a gateway ancestor to French nobility and King Henry III. Anne m. Philippe Amiot/Amyot abt 1626 and went to New France abt 1635 or a bit before. She
died 25 Dec 1675 in Quebec. Her parents were Guillaume Couvent and Antoinette de Longueval.
Post by Girl57
I am a complete novice at this and wonder about reputable people or sites to consult to confirm this. How are the below?
https://www.magnacharta.com/gateway-ancestors/
No source and no lineage.
Post by Girl57
http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/qrd30.htm
Source given and if you click on the name, you can follow the links
to ancestors. But I don't see Henri III.

Well, it is my site too :-)
Post by Girl57
Would appreciate any insight or suggestions. Thanks a lot. Jinny
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Girl57
2020-10-08 23:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Girl57
Post by Girl57
Hi, everyone. Haven't been around for a while but glad to be back.
In working on French Canadian genealogy, found my 10th great-grandmother, Anne Couvent, b. abt 1604 at Brecy, St-Michel, Aisne, Picardie, France, who is listed in several spots as a gateway ancestor to French nobility and King Henry III. Anne m. Philippe Amiot/Amyot abt 1626 and went to New France abt 1635 or a bit before. She
died 25 Dec 1675 in Quebec. Her parents were Guillaume Couvent and Antoinette de Longueval.
Post by Girl57
I am a complete novice at this and wonder about reputable people or sites to consult to confirm this. How are the below?
https://www.magnacharta.com/gateway-ancestors/
No source and no lineage.
Post by Girl57
http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/qrd30.htm
Source given and if you click on the name, you can follow the links
to ancestors. But I don't see Henri III.
Well, it is my site too :-)
Post by Girl57
Would appreciate any insight or suggestions. Thanks a lot. Jinny
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Thank you, PJ and Denis (Denis, nice to "see" you again).

Found one other site that gives the whole lineage (and others):

http://www.habitant.org/couvent/index.htm

This site refers, in relation to Anne Couvent, to an article with this citation:

Gagné, Roland-Yves, and Laurent Kokanosky, "Les origins de Philippe Amiot (Hameau), de son épouse Anne Couvent et de leur neveu Toussaint Ledran," Mémoires de la Société généalogique canadienne-française 58, no. 1, issue 251 (Spring 2007): 17-58.

Are you familiar with the publication named here? I will look for it and hope it points to some primary sources. Thanks again for responding, and continue to welcome any input. Jinny
Girl57
2020-10-08 23:43:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Girl57
Post by Girl57
Post by Girl57
Hi, everyone. Haven't been around for a while but glad to be back.
In working on French Canadian genealogy, found my 10th great-grandmother, Anne Couvent, b. abt 1604 at Brecy, St-Michel, Aisne, Picardie, France, who is listed in several spots as a gateway ancestor to French nobility and King Henry III. Anne m. Philippe Amiot/Amyot abt 1626 and went to New France abt 1635 or a bit before. She
died 25 Dec 1675 in Quebec. Her parents were Guillaume Couvent and Antoinette de Longueval.
Post by Girl57
I am a complete novice at this and wonder about reputable people or sites to consult to confirm this. How are the below?
https://www.magnacharta.com/gateway-ancestors/
No source and no lineage.
Post by Girl57
http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/qrd30.htm
Source given and if you click on the name, you can follow the links
to ancestors. But I don't see Henri III.
Well, it is my site too :-)
Post by Girl57
Would appreciate any insight or suggestions. Thanks a lot. Jinny
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Thank you, PJ and Denis (Denis, nice to "see" you again).
http://www.habitant.org/couvent/index.htm
Gagné, Roland-Yves, and Laurent Kokanosky, "Les origins de Philippe Amiot (Hameau), de son épouse Anne Couvent et de leur neveu Toussaint Ledran," Mémoires de la Société généalogique canadienne-française 58, no. 1, issue 251 (Spring 2007): 17-58.
Are you familiar with the publication named here? I will look for it and hope it points to some primary sources. Thanks again for responding, and continue to welcome any input. Jinny
Update: Just noticed link on the site to the cited journal...I would love to purchase a copy of the relevant issue, but it was published quite a while ago. Will contact organization and see what I can do.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-10-09 18:09:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Girl57
Post by Girl57
Post by Girl57
Post by Girl57
Hi, everyone. Haven't been around for a while but glad to be back.
In working on French Canadian genealogy, found my 10th great-grandmother, Anne Couvent, b. abt 1604 at Brecy, St-Michel, Aisne, Picardie, France, who is listed in several spots as a gateway ancestor to French nobility and King Henry III. Anne m. Philippe Amiot/Amyot abt 1626 and went to New France abt 1635 or a bit before. She
died 25 Dec 1675 in Quebec. Her parents were Guillaume Couvent and Antoinette de Longueval.
Post by Girl57
I am a complete novice at this and wonder about reputable people or sites to consult to confirm this. How are the below?
https://www.magnacharta.com/gateway-ancestors/
No source and no lineage.
Post by Girl57
http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/qrd30.htm
Source given and if you click on the name, you can follow the links
to ancestors. But I don't see Henri III.
Well, it is my site too :-)
Post by Girl57
Would appreciate any insight or suggestions. Thanks a lot. Jinny
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Thank you, PJ and Denis (Denis, nice to "see" you again).
http://www.habitant.org/couvent/index.htm
Gagné, Roland-Yves, and Laurent Kokanosky, "Les origins de Philippe Amiot (Hameau), de son épouse Anne Couvent et de leur neveu Toussaint Ledran," Mémoires de la Société généalogique canadienne-française 58, no. 1, issue 251 (Spring 2007): 17-58.
Are you familiar with the publication named here? I will look for it and hope it points to some primary sources. Thanks again for responding, and continue to welcome any input. Jinny
Update: Just noticed link on the site to the cited journal...I would love to purchase a copy of the relevant issue, but it was published quite a while ago. Will contact organization and see what I can do.
That article is available at https://scribd.com/document/351950010/Les-origines-de-Philippe-Amiot-Hameau-de-son-epouse-Anne-Couvent-et-de-leur-neveu-Toussaint-Ledran.
Regardless, there's, indeed, a Henry III descent. It's:
Henry III
Beatrice de Dreux
Blanche d'Artois
Marie d'Artois
Marie de Dampierre
Yolande de Bar
Jeanne de Grancey
Marie de Chateauvillain
Robert de Sarrebruche
François de Barbançon
Marguerite de Barbançon
François de Joyeuse
Jean de Joyeuse
Louise de Joyeuse
Antoinette de Longueval
Anne Couvent
Denis Beauregard
2020-10-09 19:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Le Fri, 9 Oct 2020 11:09:07 -0700 (PDT), Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Girl57
http://www.habitant.org/couvent/index.htm
Gagné, Roland-Yves, and Laurent Kokanosky, "Les origins de Philippe Amiot (Hameau), de son épouse Anne Couvent et de leur neveu Toussaint Ledran," Mémoires de la Société généalogique canadienne-française 58, no. 1, issue 251 (Spring 2007): 17-58.
That article is available at https://***/document/351950010/Les-origines-de-Philippe-Amiot-Hameau-de-son-epouse-Anne-Couvent-et-de-leur-neveu-Toussaint-Ledran.
Copyright infrigement. Before paying to this site, I would suggest
buying a copy directly from info @ SGCF.COM


Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-10-09 23:10:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denis Beauregard
Le Fri, 9 Oct 2020 11:09:07 -0700 (PDT), Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Girl57
http://www.habitant.org/couvent/index.htm
Gagné, Roland-Yves, and Laurent Kokanosky, "Les origins de Philippe Amiot (Hameau), de son épouse Anne Couvent et de leur neveu Toussaint Ledran," Mémoires de la Société généalogique canadienne-française 58, no. 1, issue 251 (Spring 2007): 17-58.
That article is available at https://***/document/351950010/Les-origines-de-Philippe-Amiot-Hameau-de-son-epouse-Anne-Couvent-et-de-leur-neveu-Toussaint-Ledran.
Copyright infrigement. Before paying to this site, I would suggest
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Apologies for posting the link, then.
d***@aol.com
2020-10-09 23:27:36 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Apologies for posting the link, then.
The Blanche who died in 1327 is more commonly known as Blanche of Brittany (or Blanche de Dreux), not Blanche d'Artois. Sorry for posting the Blanche who died in 1302 instead of 1327. Regardless, Anne Couvent's descent from Henry III doesn't seem to be completely proven, just as Mary Gye's descent from Henry III.
d***@aol.com
2020-10-09 20:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
That article is available at https://scribd.com/document/351950010/Les-origines-de-Philippe-Amiot-Hameau-de-son-epouse-Anne-Couvent-et-de-leur-neveu-Toussaint-Ledran.
Henry III
Beatrice de Dreux
Blanche d'Artois
Marie d'Artois
Marie de Dampierre
Yolande de Bar
Jeanne de Grancey
Marie de Chateauvillain
Robert de Sarrebruche
François de Barbançon
Marguerite de Barbançon
François de Joyeuse
Jean de Joyeuse
Louise de Joyeuse
Antoinette de Longueval
Anne Couvent
On the contrary, this is not a valid descent from Henry III, king of England. For one, Blanche d'Artois (d. 1302) was a descendant of Henry II, king of England, not Henry III, king of England (see Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry (2011) Vol. I, pp.102-104 [ARTOIS 5]). Secondly, the descent from Henry III, king of England to Anne Couvent as found in Gary Boyd Roberts' RD900 (2018) is based on at least one alleged connection, similar to the descent for Mary (Gye) Maverick from Henry III.
Peter Stewart
2020-10-09 21:19:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
That article is available at https://scribd.com/document/351950010/Les-origines-de-Philippe-Amiot-Hameau-de-son-epouse-Anne-Couvent-et-de-leur-neveu-Toussaint-Ledran.
Henry III
Beatrice de Dreux
Blanche d'Artois
Marie d'Artois
Marie de Dampierre
Yolande de Bar
Jeanne de Grancey
Marie de Chateauvillain
Robert de Sarrebruche
François de Barbançon
Marguerite de Barbançon
François de Joyeuse
Jean de Joyeuse
Louise de Joyeuse
Antoinette de Longueval
Anne Couvent
On the contrary, this is not a valid descent from Henry III, king of England. For one, Blanche d'Artois (d. 1302) was a descendant of Henry II, king of England, not Henry III, king of England (see Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry (2011) Vol. I, pp.102-104 [ARTOIS 5]).
You have the wrong woman - the Blanche of Artois who died in 1302 was an
aunt-by-marriage of the Blanche who was a granddaughter of Henry III as
Paulo posted - she was the wife of Philippe of Artois, seigneur of
Conches and died in 1327.

Peter Stewart
wjhonson
2020-10-09 23:39:32 UTC
Permalink
When Mathieu Amiot (dit or sieur de) Villeneuve died and was buried 19 Dec 1688 in Quebec, he was at that time called "aged 70".

*IF* Anne Couvent was his mother, and not a second wife to his father Phillippe that would place a rather tight five year constraint on three generations of women backward from him.

So I think there *is* a place for doubt in this line.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-10-10 00:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by wjhonson
When Mathieu Amiot (dit or sieur de) Villeneuve died and was buried 19 Dec 1688 in Quebec, he was at that time called "aged 70".
*IF* Anne Couvent was his mother, and not a second wife to his father Phillippe that would place a rather tight five year constraint on three generations of women backward from him.
So I think there *is* a place for doubt in this line.
FWIW, his Wikitree profile, https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Amiot-2, has him being a decade younger than that.
Regardless, I've never seen anyone expressing any doubt on him being Anne Couvent's son.
Denis Beauregard
2020-10-10 04:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by wjhonson
When Mathieu Amiot (dit or sieur de) Villeneuve died and was buried 19 Dec 1688 in Quebec, he was at that time called "aged 70".
*IF* Anne Couvent was his mother, and not a second wife to his father Phillippe that would place a rather tight five year constraint on three generations of women backward from him.
So I think there *is* a place for doubt in this line.
No. Mathieu is found in many census and other records:

born about 1629 (confirmation 1659) (census 1666)
1627 (census 1667)
1628 (census 1681)


So born about 1628, not 1618.

Moreover, his parents are named on his marriage record and his
marriage contract.


Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Girl57
2020-10-10 14:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denis Beauregard
Post by wjhonson
When Mathieu Amiot (dit or sieur de) Villeneuve died and was buried 19 Dec 1688 in Quebec, he was at that time called "aged 70".
*IF* Anne Couvent was his mother, and not a second wife to his father Phillippe that would place a rather tight five year constraint on three generations of women backward from him.
So I think there *is* a place for doubt in this line.
born about 1629 (confirmation 1659) (census 1666)
1627 (census 1667)
1628 (census 1681)
So born about 1628, not 1618.
Moreover, his parents are named on his marriage record and his
marriage contract.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
All: Thank you to you who are knowledgeable about this line and many others connected. Read through all comments and, am I correct that this line is basically sound?
Sorry...had bad day yesterday...Accidentally deleted part of a line from my tree (worked on it for months) and messed things up "royally," so didn't have a chance to get back here. If you could confirm my conclusion from your comments, that would be great. And thanks for easier suggestion for obtaining article that wouldn't infringe copyright. I appreciate all. Back soon.
wjhonson
2020-10-10 19:53:14 UTC
Permalink
I reviewed the entry in the Drouin Collection and realize when I blow it up very large that it says he was buried "soisante et dix ans"

You are free to review it yourself on Ancestry where they have the actual photo image.

I do not see any marriage record nor contract.
Who was the notary?
P J Evans
2020-10-10 20:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Guillaume Audouart, of Quebec, in Nov 1650., per Francogene.
Girl57
2020-10-10 20:25:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by wjhonson
I reviewed the entry in the Drouin Collection and realize when I blow it up very large that it says he was buried "soisante et dix ans"
You are free to review it yourself on Ancestry where they have the actual photo image.
I do not see any marriage record nor contract.
Who was the notary?
All, Look forward to hearing from Denis about Mathieu marriage contract naming his parents.

Re: other possible glitch, would like to hear more about "alleged"/in doubt connection in the line. Is it the uncertainty that Francois de Joyeuse was the son of Robert de Joyeuse and Marguerite de Barbancon? Paulorica mentioned that there's enough evidence, even though Francois doesn't appear in his parents' will/wills...because he was disinherited after marrying a woman of lower social status (was this Nicole de Beauvais)? Paulorica, would like to know where these details can be found.

Wouldn't authors Gagne and Kokanosky [in article linked to below] probably have considered this known issue, cited it, and supported existing evidence, or offer new? I don't read nearly enough French to glean relevant details from article (if someone here does...LOL). Also interesting to note that authors have said (can't remember where I read it) that findings of noble connections of Anne Couvent were incidental to their project...The intent was primarily to illuminate French roots of our French Canadian ancestors (i.e., they weren't reaching to try to prove a royal connection).

Thank you again for taking the time -- really appreciate. This would be, if it's sound, a great line to have...I'll take it! And if it isn't, still a very interesting read. Jinny
Girl57
2020-10-10 20:26:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Girl57
Post by wjhonson
I reviewed the entry in the Drouin Collection and realize when I blow it up very large that it says he was buried "soisante et dix ans"
You are free to review it yourself on Ancestry where they have the actual photo image.
I do not see any marriage record nor contract.
Who was the notary?
All, Look forward to hearing from Denis about Mathieu marriage contract naming his parents.
Re: other possible glitch, would like to hear more about "alleged"/in doubt connection in the line. Is it the uncertainty that Francois de Joyeuse was the son of Robert de Joyeuse and Marguerite de Barbancon? Paulorica mentioned that there's enough evidence, even though Francois doesn't appear in his parents' will/wills...because he was disinherited after marrying a woman of lower social status (was this Nicole de Beauvais)? Paulorica, would like to know where these details can be found.
Wouldn't authors Gagne and Kokanosky [in article linked to below] probably have considered this known issue, cited it, and supported existing evidence, or offer new? I don't read nearly enough French to glean relevant details from article (if someone here does...LOL). Also interesting to note that authors have said (can't remember where I read it) that findings of noble connections of Anne Couvent were incidental to their project...The intent was primarily to illuminate French roots of our French Canadian ancestors (i.e., they weren't reaching to try to prove a royal connection).
Thank you again for taking the time -- really appreciate. This would be, if it's sound, a great line to have...I'll take it! And if it isn't, still a very interesting read. Jinny
Forgot article link:

https://www.scribd.com/document/351950010/Les-origines-de-Philippe-Amiot-Hameau-de-son-epouse-Anne-Couvent-et-de-leur-neveu-Toussaint-Ledran
Denis Beauregard
2020-10-10 20:38:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Girl57
Post by wjhonson
I reviewed the entry in the Drouin Collection and realize when I blow it up very large that it says he was buried "soisante et dix ans"
You are free to review it yourself on Ancestry where they have the actual photo image.
I do not see any marriage record nor contract.
Who was the notary?
All, Look forward to hearing from Denis about Mathieu marriage contract naming his parents.
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec-genealogy/000/000126.php

[126] AMIOT de et dit VILLENEUVE, Mathieu (Philippe AMIOT ou HAMEAU &
Anne COUVENT [1]), captain of militia (capitaine de milice), born
about 1629 (conf. 1659) (census 1666), 1627 (census 1667) or 1628
(census 1681) Soissons (diocèse) (Aisne : 02722), buried 1688-12-19
Québec

* married 1650-11-22 Québec, marriage contract 1650-11-19 (depositary
Guillaume Audouart)

MIVILLE, Marie (Pierre MIVILLE dit LE SUISSE & Charlotte MAUGIS [96]),
baptized 1632-12-13 Brouage com Hiers-Brouage (Notre-Dame)
(Charente-Maritime : 17189), dead 1702-09-05, buried Québec
(Hôtel-Dieu)
Post by Girl57
Re: other possible glitch, would like to hear more about "alleged"/in doubt connection in the line. Is it the uncertainty that Francois de Joyeuse was the son of Robert de Joyeuse and Marguerite de Barbancon? Paulorica mentioned that there's enough evidence, even though Francois doesn't appear in his parents' will/wills...because
he was disinherited after marrying a woman of lower social status (was this Nicole de Beauvais)? Paulorica, would like to know where these details can be found.

One suggested that one son could be from another wife even if no other
wife is named or even suggested by records. Perhaps the same case. In
my own opinion, we have to go with known records. If there is no
glitch (like a chronological impossibility), then there is no reason
to reject something.
Post by Girl57
Wouldn't authors Gagne and Kokanosky [in article linked to below] probably have considered this known issue, cited it, and supported existing evidence, or offer new? I don't read nearly enough French to glean relevant details from article (if someone here does...LOL). Also interesting to note that authors have said (can't remember
where I read it) that findings of noble connections of Anne Couvent were incidental to their project...The intent was primarily to illuminate French roots of our French Canadian ancestors (i.e., they weren't reaching to try to prove a royal connection).

Yves told me, years ago, that he was searching all his own
ancestors in Europe. So, he tries to develop as far as he can
all the data he found in French archives, and is happy when he
finds more unexpected results. On my side, I am more generalist
so I may check all families but at this time, I focus on DNA and
not on finding more European data. That said, I found more about
my own Anthiaume in Paris but am not a good enough paleographer
to read all these records. I think it may be possible to find one
more generation and identify the grand-parents of Marguerite
Anthiaume, the wife of André Jarret de Beauregard and I already
have new uncles/aunts.


Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Girl57
2020-10-10 21:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denis Beauregard
Post by Girl57
Post by wjhonson
I reviewed the entry in the Drouin Collection and realize when I blow it up very large that it says he was buried "soisante et dix ans"
You are free to review it yourself on Ancestry where they have the actual photo image.
I do not see any marriage record nor contract.
Who was the notary?
All, Look forward to hearing from Denis about Mathieu marriage contract naming his parents.
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec-genealogy/000/000126.php
[126] AMIOT de et dit VILLENEUVE, Mathieu (Philippe AMIOT ou HAMEAU &
Anne COUVENT [1]), captain of militia (capitaine de milice), born
about 1629 (conf. 1659) (census 1666), 1627 (census 1667) or 1628
(census 1681) Soissons (diocèse) (Aisne : 02722), buried 1688-12-19
Québec
* married 1650-11-22 Québec, marriage contract 1650-11-19 (depositary
Guillaume Audouart)
MIVILLE, Marie (Pierre MIVILLE dit LE SUISSE & Charlotte MAUGIS [96]),
baptized 1632-12-13 Brouage com Hiers-Brouage (Notre-Dame)
(Charente-Maritime : 17189), dead 1702-09-05, buried Québec
(Hôtel-Dieu)
Post by Girl57
Re: other possible glitch, would like to hear more about "alleged"/in doubt connection in the line. Is it the uncertainty that Francois de Joyeuse was the son of Robert de Joyeuse and Marguerite de Barbancon? Paulorica mentioned that there's enough evidence, even though Francois doesn't appear in his parents' will/wills...because
he was disinherited after marrying a woman of lower social status (was this Nicole de Beauvais)? Paulorica, would like to know where these details can be found.
One suggested that one son could be from another wife even if no other
wife is named or even suggested by records. Perhaps the same case. In
my own opinion, we have to go with known records. If there is no
glitch (like a chronological impossibility), then there is no reason
to reject something.
Post by Girl57
Wouldn't authors Gagne and Kokanosky [in article linked to below] probably have considered this known issue, cited it, and supported existing evidence, or offer new? I don't read nearly enough French to glean relevant details from article (if someone here does...LOL). Also interesting to note that authors have said (can't remember
where I read it) that findings of noble connections of Anne Couvent were incidental to their project...The intent was primarily to illuminate French roots of our French Canadian ancestors (i.e., they weren't reaching to try to prove a royal connection).
Yves told me, years ago, that he was searching all his own
ancestors in Europe. So, he tries to develop as far as he can
all the data he found in French archives, and is happy when he
finds more unexpected results. On my side, I am more generalist
so I may check all families but at this time, I focus on DNA and
not on finding more European data. That said, I found more about
my own Anthiaume in Paris but am not a good enough paleographer
to read all these records. I think it may be possible to find one
more generation and identify the grand-parents of Marguerite
Anthiaume, the wife of André Jarret de Beauregard and I already
have new uncles/aunts.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Denis, Thanks for the good information and insight. Re: "One suggested that one son could be from another wife even if no other
wife is named or even suggested by records...," am wondering whether Anne Couvent was just a very young mother...If she was born abt 1604, as records indicate, and Mathieu b. 1618 (in glitch scenario)...she would have been about 14 years old at his birth? This is not impossible, correct? I have found among my other French Canadian ancestors (not sure about more remote French ancestors) that girls were sometimes married even younger than that. And starting so young can sometimes account for the large number of children born before the mother's menopause)?

I also love finding unexpected results and am happy to keep digging through records...am specialist type...it's a joy. Isn't is great finding new cousins, aunts, and uncles? But also just learning about DNA and head is spinning...Wow. Impressed with your work on that. Thanks again for all insight, and hope to "hang on" to this line...One can't sneeze at Eleanor of Aquitaine...Jinny
Denis Beauregard
2020-10-10 21:34:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Girl57
Denis, Thanks for the good information and insight. Re: "One suggested that one son could be from another wife even if no other
wife is named or even suggested by records...," am wondering whether Anne Couvent was just a very young mother...If she was born abt 1604, as records indicate, and Mathieu b. 1618 (in glitch scenario)...she would have been about 14 years old at his birth? This is not impossible, correct? I have found among my other French Canadian
ancestors (not sure about more remote French ancestors) that girls were sometimes married even younger than that. And starting so young can sometimes account for the large number of children born before the mother's menopause)?

But this is not the issue. I think there was a debate about
that long ago. It was in France for I think a wife of Joyeuse.

I didn't accept that issue and kept as is what was found.

At least one of my ancestor was married when 11, so in the
colonial times, and not limited to New France, girls were
married very young while usually not pregnant before 16. No
idea however if this topic was ever verified.
Post by Girl57
I also love finding unexpected results and am happy to keep digging through records...am specialist type...it's a joy. Isn't is great finding new cousins, aunts, and uncles? But also just learning about DNA and head is spinning...Wow. Impressed with your work on that. Thanks again for all insight, and hope to "hang on" to this
line...One can't sneeze at Eleanor of Aquitaine...Jinny

Sometimes, in DNA, we find who was in the bed 300 years ago...


Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-10-19 01:41:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Girl57
Post by wjhonson
I reviewed the entry in the Drouin Collection and realize when I blow it up very large that it says he was buried "soisante et dix ans"
You are free to review it yourself on Ancestry where they have the actual photo image.
I do not see any marriage record nor contract.
Who was the notary?
All, Look forward to hearing from Denis about Mathieu marriage contract naming his parents.
Re: other possible glitch, would like to hear more about "alleged"/in doubt connection in the line. Is it the uncertainty that Francois de Joyeuse was the son of Robert de Joyeuse and Marguerite de Barbancon? Paulorica mentioned that there's enough evidence, even though Francois doesn't appear in his parents' will/wills...because he was disinherited after marrying a woman of lower social status (was this Nicole de Beauvais)? Paulorica, would like to know where these details can be found.
Wouldn't authors Gagne and Kokanosky [in article linked to below] probably have considered this known issue, cited it, and supported existing evidence, or offer new? I don't read nearly enough French to glean relevant details from article (if someone here does...LOL). Also interesting to note that authors have said (can't remember where I read it) that findings of noble connections of Anne Couvent were incidental to their project...The intent was primarily to illuminate French roots of our French Canadian ancestors (i.e., they weren't reaching to try to prove a royal connection).
Thank you again for taking the time -- really appreciate. This would be, if it's sound, a great line to have...I'll take it! And if it isn't, still a very interesting read. Jinny
According to the Geni summary, François's wife of much lower social status was not Nicole de Beauvais, it was an unknown first wife.
Denis Beauregard
2020-10-19 05:26:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 18:41:38 -0700 (PDT), Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Girl57
Post by wjhonson
I reviewed the entry in the Drouin Collection and realize when I blow it up very large that it says he was buried "soisante et dix ans"
You are free to review it yourself on Ancestry where they have the actual photo image.
I do not see any marriage record nor contract.
Who was the notary?
All, Look forward to hearing from Denis about Mathieu marriage contract naming his parents.
Re: other possible glitch, would like to hear more about "alleged"/in doubt connection in the line. Is it the uncertainty that Francois de Joyeuse was the son of Robert de Joyeuse and Marguerite de Barbancon? Paulorica mentioned that there's enough evidence, even though Francois doesn't appear in his parents'
will/wills...because he was disinherited after marrying a woman of lower social status (was this Nicole de Beauvais)? Paulorica, would like to know where these details can be found.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Girl57
Wouldn't authors Gagne and Kokanosky [in article linked to below] probably have considered this known issue, cited it, and supported existing evidence, or offer new? I don't read nearly enough French to glean relevant details from article (if someone here does...LOL). Also interesting to note that authors have said (can't
remember where I read it) that findings of noble connections of Anne Couvent were incidental to their project...The intent was primarily to illuminate French roots of our French Canadian ancestors (i.e., they weren't reaching to try to prove a royal connection).
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Girl57
Thank you again for taking the time -- really appreciate. This would be, if it's sound, a great line to have...I'll take it! And if it isn't, still a very interesting read. Jinny
According to the Geni summary, François's wife of much lower social status was not Nicole de Beauvais, it was an unknown first wife.
The royal lineage is by François and not his wife, so this is not
very relevant with that purpose.

As for the 1st and 2nd wives, this is discussed in the article, using
a notary record made in 1733 by a descendant of that lineage and based
in records available at that time. Some were destroyed during WW 1.


Denis

P.S. I wouldn't rely on Geni for any thing unusual...
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Girl57
2020-10-19 12:30:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denis Beauregard
On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 18:41:38 -0700 (PDT), Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Girl57
Post by wjhonson
I reviewed the entry in the Drouin Collection and realize when I blow it up very large that it says he was buried "soisante et dix ans"
You are free to review it yourself on Ancestry where they have the actual photo image.
I do not see any marriage record nor contract.
Who was the notary?
All, Look forward to hearing from Denis about Mathieu marriage contract naming his parents.
Re: other possible glitch, would like to hear more about "alleged"/in doubt connection in the line. Is it the uncertainty that Francois de Joyeuse was the son of Robert de Joyeuse and Marguerite de Barbancon? Paulorica mentioned that there's enough evidence, even though Francois doesn't appear in his parents'
will/wills...because he was disinherited after marrying a woman of lower social status (was this Nicole de Beauvais)? Paulorica, would like to know where these details can be found.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Girl57
Wouldn't authors Gagne and Kokanosky [in article linked to below] probably have considered this known issue, cited it, and supported existing evidence, or offer new? I don't read nearly enough French to glean relevant details from article (if someone here does...LOL). Also interesting to note that authors have said (can't
remember where I read it) that findings of noble connections of Anne Couvent were incidental to their project...The intent was primarily to illuminate French roots of our French Canadian ancestors (i.e., they weren't reaching to try to prove a royal connection).
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Girl57
Thank you again for taking the time -- really appreciate. This would be, if it's sound, a great line to have...I'll take it! And if it isn't, still a very interesting read. Jinny
According to the Geni summary, François's wife of much lower social status was not Nicole de Beauvais, it was an unknown first wife.
The royal lineage is by François and not his wife, so this is not
very relevant with that purpose.
As for the 1st and 2nd wives, this is discussed in the article, using
a notary record made in 1733 by a descendant of that lineage and based
in records available at that time. Some were destroyed during WW 1.
Denis
P.S. I wouldn't rely on Geni for any thing unusual...
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Denis, Once again, thank you for the helpful info. Since hard for me to read Gagne/K article, great that you can point out important bits that I missed or haven't reached yet, including 1733 notary record. Also helpful to know relative reliability of sites. Paulo, thanks for note about wives...I do want to make sure my data are correct. Pardon the genealogical pun, but getting it right is never a "straight line," is it? Will be back with more questions, I'm sure. 
Del Rock
2021-08-27 00:29:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Girl57
Post by Denis Beauregard
On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 18:41:38 -0700 (PDT), Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Girl57
Post by wjhonson
I reviewed the entry in the Drouin Collection and realize when I blow it up very large that it says he was buried "soisante et dix ans"
You are free to review it yourself on Ancestry where they have the actual photo image.
I do not see any marriage record nor contract.
Who was the notary?
All, Look forward to hearing from Denis about Mathieu marriage contract naming his parents.
Re: other possible glitch, would like to hear more about "alleged"/in doubt connection in the line. Is it the uncertainty that Francois de Joyeuse was the son of Robert de Joyeuse and Marguerite de Barbancon? Paulorica mentioned that there's enough evidence, even though Francois doesn't appear in his parents'
will/wills...because he was disinherited after marrying a woman of lower social status (was this Nicole de Beauvais)? Paulorica, would like to know where these details can be found.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Girl57
Wouldn't authors Gagne and Kokanosky [in article linked to below] probably have considered this known issue, cited it, and supported existing evidence, or offer new? I don't read nearly enough French to glean relevant details from article (if someone here does...LOL). Also interesting to note that authors have said (can't
remember where I read it) that findings of noble connections of Anne Couvent were incidental to their project...The intent was primarily to illuminate French roots of our French Canadian ancestors (i.e., they weren't reaching to try to prove a royal connection).
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Girl57
Thank you again for taking the time -- really appreciate. This would be, if it's sound, a great line to have...I'll take it! And if it isn't, still a very interesting read. Jinny
According to the Geni summary, François's wife of much lower social status was not Nicole de Beauvais, it was an unknown first wife.
The royal lineage is by François and not his wife, so this is not
very relevant with that purpose.
As for the 1st and 2nd wives, this is discussed in the article, using
a notary record made in 1733 by a descendant of that lineage and based
in records available at that time. Some were destroyed during WW 1.
Denis
P.S. I wouldn't rely on Geni for any thing unusual...
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Denis, Once again, thank you for the helpful info. Since hard for me to read Gagne/K article, great that you can point out important bits that I missed or haven't reached yet, including 1733 notary record. Also helpful to know relative reliability of sites. Paulo, thanks for note about wives...I do want to make sure my data are correct. Pardon the genealogical pun, but getting it right is never a "straight line," is it? Will be back with more questions, I'm sure.
I am asking the EXACT same question that you did... how are we to believe the 1733 notarial record is true if it is just the words of one person about their own connection? I just would like to know if that's all there is because to me it isn't completely solid.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-10-09 23:30:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
That article is available at https://scribd.com/document/351950010/Les-origines-de-Philippe-Amiot-Hameau-de-son-epouse-Anne-Couvent-et-de-leur-neveu-Toussaint-Ledran.
Henry III
Beatrice de Dreux
Blanche d'Artois
Marie d'Artois
Marie de Dampierre
Yolande de Bar
Jeanne de Grancey
Marie de Chateauvillain
Robert de Sarrebruche
François de Barbançon
Marguerite de Barbançon
François de Joyeuse
Jean de Joyeuse
Louise de Joyeuse
Antoinette de Longueval
Anne Couvent
On the contrary, this is not a valid descent from Henry III, king of England. For one, Blanche d'Artois (d. 1302) was a descendant of Henry II, king of England, not Henry III, king of England (see Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry (2011) Vol. I, pp.102-104 [ARTOIS 5]). Secondly, the descent from Henry III, king of England to Anne Couvent as found in Gary Boyd Roberts' RD900 (2018) is based on at least one alleged connection, similar to the descent for Mary (Gye) Maverick from Henry III.
First, as Peter already showed, you confused two different Blanches.
Regardless, do you know, exactly, what the alleged connection is? If it's François de Joyeuse being Marguerite de Barbançon's son, the evidence appears to be enough. On 20 March 1733, Jean-Baptiste ds Joyeuse reported to the notary Pierre Hanonet of Verdun how François was the black sheep of family. His first wife was of a much lower social status and he was disinherited. That explains why he isn't mentioned in his parents' will.
John Higgins
2020-10-10 22:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
That article is available at https://scribd.com/document/351950010/Les-origines-de-Philippe-Amiot-Hameau-de-son-epouse-Anne-Couvent-et-de-leur-neveu-Toussaint-Ledran.
Henry III
Beatrice de Dreux
Blanche d'Artois
Marie d'Artois
Marie de Dampierre
Yolande de Bar
Jeanne de Grancey
Marie de Chateauvillain
Robert de Sarrebruche
François de Barbançon
Marguerite de Barbançon
François de Joyeuse
Jean de Joyeuse
Louise de Joyeuse
Antoinette de Longueval
Anne Couvent
On the contrary, this is not a valid descent from Henry III, king of England. For one, Blanche d'Artois (d. 1302) was a descendant of Henry II, king of England, not Henry III, king of England (see Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry (2011) Vol. I, pp.102-104 [ARTOIS 5]). Secondly, the descent from Henry III, king of England to Anne Couvent as found in Gary Boyd Roberts' RD900 (2018) is based on at least one alleged connection, similar to the descent for Mary (Gye) Maverick from Henry III.
First, as Peter already showed, you confused two different Blanches.
Regardless, do you know, exactly, what the alleged connection is? If it's François de Joyeuse being Marguerite de Barbançon's son, the evidence appears to be enough. On 20 March 1733, Jean-Baptiste ds Joyeuse reported to the notary Pierre Hanonet of Verdun how François was the black sheep of family. His first wife was of a much lower social status and he was disinherited. That explains why he isn't mentioned in his parents' will.
What is your source for this information regarding Francois de Joyeuse? Is it the Gagné/Kokanosky article cited elsewhere in this thread? (I assume you read it through scribd.com?)
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-10-11 00:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
That article is available at https://scribd.com/document/351950010/Les-origines-de-Philippe-Amiot-Hameau-de-son-epouse-Anne-Couvent-et-de-leur-neveu-Toussaint-Ledran.
Henry III
Beatrice de Dreux
Blanche d'Artois
Marie d'Artois
Marie de Dampierre
Yolande de Bar
Jeanne de Grancey
Marie de Chateauvillain
Robert de Sarrebruche
François de Barbançon
Marguerite de Barbançon
François de Joyeuse
Jean de Joyeuse
Louise de Joyeuse
Antoinette de Longueval
Anne Couvent
On the contrary, this is not a valid descent from Henry III, king of England. For one, Blanche d'Artois (d. 1302) was a descendant of Henry II, king of England, not Henry III, king of England (see Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry (2011) Vol. I, pp.102-104 [ARTOIS 5]). Secondly, the descent from Henry III, king of England to Anne Couvent as found in Gary Boyd Roberts' RD900 (2018) is based on at least one alleged connection, similar to the descent for Mary (Gye) Maverick from Henry III.
First, as Peter already showed, you confused two different Blanches.
Regardless, do you know, exactly, what the alleged connection is? If it's François de Joyeuse being Marguerite de Barbançon's son, the evidence appears to be enough. On 20 March 1733, Jean-Baptiste ds Joyeuse reported to the notary Pierre Hanonet of Verdun how François was the black sheep of family. His first wife was of a much lower social status and he was disinherited. That explains why he isn't mentioned in his parents' will.
What is your source for this information regarding Francois de Joyeuse? Is it the Gagné/Kokanosky article cited elsewhere in this thread? (I assume you read it through scribd.com?)
I don't have an account there and haven't read the article. I took this information from https://www.geni.com/people/François-de-Joyeuse/6000000006909087261, that cites the article. I'm sure Denis Beauregard can confirm the article does say that.
Girl57
2020-10-11 01:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
That article is available at https://scribd.com/document/351950010/Les-origines-de-Philippe-Amiot-Hameau-de-son-epouse-Anne-Couvent-et-de-leur-neveu-Toussaint-Ledran.
Henry III
Beatrice de Dreux
Blanche d'Artois
Marie d'Artois
Marie de Dampierre
Yolande de Bar
Jeanne de Grancey
Marie de Chateauvillain
Robert de Sarrebruche
François de Barbançon
Marguerite de Barbançon
François de Joyeuse
Jean de Joyeuse
Louise de Joyeuse
Antoinette de Longueval
Anne Couvent
On the contrary, this is not a valid descent from Henry III, king of England. For one, Blanche d'Artois (d. 1302) was a descendant of Henry II, king of England, not Henry III, king of England (see Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry (2011) Vol. I, pp.102-104 [ARTOIS 5]). Secondly, the descent from Henry III, king of England to Anne Couvent as found in Gary Boyd Roberts' RD900 (2018) is based on at least one alleged connection, similar to the descent for Mary (Gye) Maverick from Henry III.
First, as Peter already showed, you confused two different Blanches.
Regardless, do you know, exactly, what the alleged connection is? If it's François de Joyeuse being Marguerite de Barbançon's son, the evidence appears to be enough. On 20 March 1733, Jean-Baptiste ds Joyeuse reported to the notary Pierre Hanonet of Verdun how François was the black sheep of family. His first wife was of a much lower social status and he was disinherited. That explains why he isn't mentioned in his parents' will.
What is your source for this information regarding Francois de Joyeuse? Is it the Gagné/Kokanosky article cited elsewhere in this thread? (I assume you read it through scribd.com?)
I don't have an account there and haven't read the article. I took this information from https://www.geni.com/people/François-de-Joyeuse/6000000006909087261, that cites the article. I'm sure Denis Beauregard can confirm the article does say that.
Denis can confirm that's what the article says...I would love that as I don't read French well enough. I'm in a free one-month trial to scrbd.com and viewed it, and could make out just enough so I think that's what it says but not sure. In process of trying to order a hard copy of the piece as originally published by Societe Genealogique Canadienne-Francaise (SGCF), but ordering link on their site wasn't working as of yesterday.

Denis, yes, we don't know who was "in the bed" 300 years ago! Relatedly, this week I discovered that in 1679, one of my French Canadian 10th great-grandfathers was almost hung for molesting his eldest daughter and going after two more...His punishment was reduced, all his possessions confiscated, and he lived for years basically alone and died penniless. Can you imagine him knowing that his descendants would learn of this 341 years later (just through traditional records)?
John Higgins
2020-10-11 18:29:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
That article is available at https://scribd.com/document/351950010/Les-origines-de-Philippe-Amiot-Hameau-de-son-epouse-Anne-Couvent-et-de-leur-neveu-Toussaint-Ledran.
Henry III
Beatrice de Dreux
Blanche d'Artois
Marie d'Artois
Marie de Dampierre
Yolande de Bar
Jeanne de Grancey
Marie de Chateauvillain
Robert de Sarrebruche
François de Barbançon
Marguerite de Barbançon
François de Joyeuse
Jean de Joyeuse
Louise de Joyeuse
Antoinette de Longueval
Anne Couvent
On the contrary, this is not a valid descent from Henry III, king of England. For one, Blanche d'Artois (d. 1302) was a descendant of Henry II, king of England, not Henry III, king of England (see Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry (2011) Vol. I, pp.102-104 [ARTOIS 5]). Secondly, the descent from Henry III, king of England to Anne Couvent as found in Gary Boyd Roberts' RD900 (2018) is based on at least one alleged connection, similar to the descent for Mary (Gye) Maverick from Henry III.
First, as Peter already showed, you confused two different Blanches.
Regardless, do you know, exactly, what the alleged connection is? If it's François de Joyeuse being Marguerite de Barbançon's son, the evidence appears to be enough. On 20 March 1733, Jean-Baptiste ds Joyeuse reported to the notary Pierre Hanonet of Verdun how François was the black sheep of family. His first wife was of a much lower social status and he was disinherited. That explains why he isn't mentioned in his parents' will.
What is your source for this information regarding Francois de Joyeuse? Is it the Gagné/Kokanosky article cited elsewhere in this thread? (I assume you read it through scribd.com?)
I don't have an account there and haven't read the article. I took this information from https://www.geni.com/people/François-de-Joyeuse/6000000006909087261, that cites the article. I'm sure Denis Beauregard can confirm the article does say that.
Thanks for this clarification. I agree with you that the information likely comes from the Gagné/Kokanosky article. FWIW that article is cited in the Genealogics database for François de Joyeuse and his connections.

Oddly I can find no information whatsoever on the four-volume genealogy & family history, "Their Roots Run Far and Deep" by Paul Alan Fine which is mentioned in the Geni entry for François de Joyeuse.
Girl57
2020-10-11 20:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
That article is available at https://scribd.com/document/351950010/Les-origines-de-Philippe-Amiot-Hameau-de-son-epouse-Anne-Couvent-et-de-leur-neveu-Toussaint-Ledran.
Henry III
Beatrice de Dreux
Blanche d'Artois
Marie d'Artois
Marie de Dampierre
Yolande de Bar
Jeanne de Grancey
Marie de Chateauvillain
Robert de Sarrebruche
François de Barbançon
Marguerite de Barbançon
François de Joyeuse
Jean de Joyeuse
Louise de Joyeuse
Antoinette de Longueval
Anne Couvent
On the contrary, this is not a valid descent from Henry III, king of England. For one, Blanche d'Artois (d. 1302) was a descendant of Henry II, king of England, not Henry III, king of England (see Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry (2011) Vol. I, pp.102-104 [ARTOIS 5]). Secondly, the descent from Henry III, king of England to Anne Couvent as found in Gary Boyd Roberts' RD900 (2018) is based on at least one alleged connection, similar to the descent for Mary (Gye) Maverick from Henry III.
First, as Peter already showed, you confused two different Blanches.
Regardless, do you know, exactly, what the alleged connection is? If it's François de Joyeuse being Marguerite de Barbançon's son, the evidence appears to be enough. On 20 March 1733, Jean-Baptiste ds Joyeuse reported to the notary Pierre Hanonet of Verdun how François was the black sheep of family. His first wife was of a much lower social status and he was disinherited. That explains why he isn't mentioned in his parents' will.
What is your source for this information regarding Francois de Joyeuse? Is it the Gagné/Kokanosky article cited elsewhere in this thread? (I assume you read it through scribd.com?)
I don't have an account there and haven't read the article. I took this information from https://www.geni.com/people/François-de-Joyeuse/6000000006909087261, that cites the article. I'm sure Denis Beauregard can confirm the article does say that.
Thanks for this clarification. I agree with you that the information likely comes from the Gagné/Kokanosky article. FWIW that article is cited in the Genealogics database for François de Joyeuse and his connections.
Oddly I can find no information whatsoever on the four-volume genealogy & family history, "Their Roots Run Far and Deep" by Paul Alan Fine which is mentioned in the Geni entry for François de Joyeuse.
Not able to track that work down? I'm not sure I've checked Geni yet for this line.

I spent part of this a.m. trying to read a specific section of the Gagne/Kokanosky article, and there's a section that talks of a Francois marriage disapproved of by his parents, and more, maybe even including support that Francois Joyeuse is son of Robert. I may have to go through the whole section, phrase by phrase, translating on Google.

Have also visited the site linked to below, and seen some of the sources cited on pages of individuals in the Anne Couvent line...Some of them sound like a "Burke's Peerage" sort of work, for France (is there such a thing?) But I am not knowledgeable about France, or relevant era in France, and don't know what the standard source materials are. Are you familiar with the site?

https://mount-royal.ca/heritage/getperson.php?personID=I185&tree=godbout

Also wondering about Baronial Order of Magna Charta...If they list Anne Couvent as a gateway ancestor, someone must have submitted a line for her that was checked carefully by genealogists, correct? If so, where would this info be stored or published so others can refer to it? Or is it considered proprietary for some reason?

One more question: Of what social standing do we think Philippe Amiot and Anne Couvent were when they decided to go to Canada? (I am proud of my ancestors for their courage no matter what their standing was)...Just wondering why they would have left France if they were doing well, unless someone offered Philippe a good position in the colony. Also don't have any idea how many generations it might take -- between a king of England or a king of France -- and a descendant that wasn't in the nobility? Maybe this varied widely according family circumstances, each generation place in their family's birth order, etc. My history weak here!
Denis Beauregard
2020-10-12 04:49:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Girl57
Have also visited the site linked to below, and seen some of the sources cited on pages of individuals in the Anne Couvent line...Some of them sound like a "Burke's Peerage" sort of work, for France (is there such a thing?) But I am not knowledgeable about France, or relevant era in France, and don't know what the standard source
materials are. Are you familiar with the site?
Post by Girl57
https://mount-royal.ca/heritage/getperson.php?personID=I185&tree=godbout
I think you should consider this as a personal site.

The usual large databases for medieval genealogy include
www.genealogics.org which is quoted quite often here, and Roglo
http://roglo.eu/roglo

As for Quebec data, I maintain my own database so I see no reason
for me to explore the many personal web sites for data before 1850.


Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Girl57
2020-10-12 12:28:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Girl57
Post by Girl57
Have also visited the site linked to below, and seen some of the sources cited on pages of individuals in the Anne Couvent line...Some of them sound like a "Burke's Peerage" sort of work, for France (is there such a thing?) But I am not knowledgeable about France, or relevant era in France, and don't know what the standard source
materials are. Are you familiar with the site?
Post by Girl57
https://mount-royal.ca/heritage/getperson.php?personID=I185&tree=godbout
I think you should consider this as a personal site.
The usual large databases for medieval genealogy include
www.genealogics.org which is quoted quite often here, and Roglo
http://roglo.eu/roglo
As for Quebec data, I maintain my own database so I see no reason
for me to explore the many personal web sites for data before 1850.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Thank you, Denis. Am so new to this I don't yet know what's what. I have of course seen your site and appreciate it. For now, will do as you suggest and go with the evidence and trust what's at hand unless something else emerges. The Gagne article is written by an obviously experienced and very knowledgeable genealogist. Will also find a way to translate the French so I understand better. Appreciate everyone's input.
wjhonson
2020-10-12 21:51:55 UTC
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As to Paul Alan Fine I think you will find that this citation is some kind of personal work, not published, just copied and sent to various people. Paul has several like this, at least three. If he is alive he lives in Minnetoka, per a quick Goog
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