Discussion:
Who are the parents of Sophia?
(too old to reply)
Edo Janssen
2021-03-20 11:08:56 UTC
Permalink
There is a painting from Adriaen Pietersz. van de Venne (abt 1626) of Boudewijn of Heusden and his Wife Sophia Receive Honors from the Envoy of King Edmund.

The story of Boudewijn of Heusden is that he fought in the army of the English King and there he met his future wife. He eloped with her and together they went to Brabant in the Netherlands. Boudewijn (Baldwin or Baudouin) lived from 817 till 870.

Sophia's parents would be king Edmund or Elderick and his wife, but that's not for sure. In my research some names came by: Edmund the Martyr, Aethelwulf of Wessex and even Aelthelred I of England.

Does anyone know an English king with a daughter named Sophia? Where could I find some more information?
Carl-Henry Geschwind
2021-03-20 12:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edo Janssen
There is a painting from Adriaen Pietersz. van de Venne (abt 1626) of Boudewijn of Heusden and his Wife Sophia Receive Honors from the Envoy of King Edmund.
The story of Boudewijn of Heusden is that he fought in the army of the English King and there he met his future wife. He eloped with her and together they went to Brabant in the Netherlands. Boudewijn (Baldwin or Baudouin) lived from 817 till 870.
Sophia's parents would be king Edmund or Elderick and his wife, but that's not for sure. In my research some names came by: Edmund the Martyr, Aethelwulf of Wessex and even Aelthelred I of England.
Does anyone know an English king with a daughter named Sophia? Where could I find some more information?
For the picture see https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/collectie/SK-A-959

I do see the story of a Boudewijn de Heusden abducting Sophia, daughter of king Ardumandus of England, on p. 983 of Simon van Leeuwen's Batavia Illustrata, vol. 2, published in 1685 (https://books.google.com/books?id=sZSuCY06ZpUC), with a reference to the history of Heuterus (Pontus de Huyter, 1535-1602). The story in Simon van Leeuwen's work has an Aarnout van Anjou accompanying Boudewijn to England - so there seems to be quite some anachronism going on here.

I wonder whether this is a garbled version of the story of count Boudewijn (Baudouin/Baldwin), who in 861 eloped with Judith, the widow (not daughter) of Anglo-Saxon kings Aethelwulf and Aethelbald, and then became the first margrave of Flanders (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_I,_Margrave_of_Flanders).
taf
2021-03-20 14:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
Post by Edo Janssen
There is a painting from Adriaen Pietersz. van de Venne (abt 1626) of Boudewijn of Heusden and his Wife Sophia Receive Honors from the Envoy of King Edmund.
The story of Boudewijn of Heusden is that he fought in the army of the English King and there he met his future wife. He eloped with her and together they went to Brabant in the Netherlands. Boudewijn (Baldwin or Baudouin) lived from 817 till 870.
Sophia's parents would be king Edmund or Elderick and his wife, but that's not for sure. In my research some names came by: Edmund the Martyr, Aethelwulf of Wessex and even Aelthelred I of England.
Does anyone know an English king with a daughter named Sophia? Where could I find some more information?
For the picture see https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/collectie/SK-A-959
I do see the story of a Boudewijn de Heusden abducting Sophia, daughter of king Ardumandus of England, on p. 983 of Simon van Leeuwen's Batavia Illustrata, vol. 2, published in 1685 (https://books.google.com/books?id=sZSuCY06ZpUC), with a reference to the history of Heuterus (Pontus de Huyter, 1535-1602). The story in Simon van Leeuwen's work has an Aarnout van Anjou accompanying Boudewijn to England - so there seems to be quite some anachronism going on here.
I wonder whether this is a garbled version of the story of count Boudewijn (Baudouin/Baldwin), who in 861 eloped with Judith, the widow (not daughter) of Anglo-Saxon kings Aethelwulf and Aethelbald, and then became the first margrave of Flanders (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_I,_Margrave_of_Flanders).
I was thinking along the same lines as Carl-Henry on this, that this was an anachronistic legend that may have incorporated aspects of historical events in a garbled manner but is not very reflective of the actual history. The marriage that immediately came to my mind was in the next generation when a daughter of Alfred the Great married the next Baldwin, but Carl-Henry is probably closer to the mark in suggesting the elopement of Alfred's step-mother and sister-in-law Judith.

Just to address the original question, the earliest English king to have a daughter named Sophia was George I (d. 1727). All known daughters of Anglo-Saxon kings bore names derived via cultural naming practice, consisting of two elements, the first being AEthel-, Ead-, AElf- , God-, Waer-, Ean-, Saex-, Os-, Cwen-, plus a semi-legendary instance of Mild- (and certainly others I missed) and ending with -gifu, -thryth, -flaed, -gyth, -swith, -burh, or -hild, a pattern with which 'Sophia' does not fit.

taf
Peter Stewart
2021-03-20 23:10:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edo Janssen
There is a painting from Adriaen Pietersz. van de Venne (abt 1626) of Boudewijn of Heusden and his Wife Sophia Receive Honors from the Envoy of King Edmund.
The story of Boudewijn of Heusden is that he fought in the army of the English King and there he met his future wife. He eloped with her and together they went to Brabant in the Netherlands. Boudewijn (Baldwin or Baudouin) lived from 817 till 870.
Sophia's parents would be king Edmund or Elderick and his wife, but that's not for sure. In my research some names came by: Edmund the Martyr, Aethelwulf of Wessex and even Aelthelred I of England.
Does anyone know an English king with a daughter named Sophia? Where could I find some more information?
This is a legend that first occurs (perhaps by the author's invention)
in the late-15th century "Chronicon Hollandiae comitum et episcoporum
Ultraiectensium" by the Carmelite Johannes a Leydis (aka Jan
Gerbrandszoon, Jan van Leyden and many other variants), on pp. 90-92 in
the edition by Frans Sweerts (Frankfurt, 1620).

According to this, Balduin was the second lord of Heusden, expelled from
Flanders by the Danes. He took service under King Elderic and his queen
in England, falling in love with their daughter Sophia. The couple fled
to his relative in Brabant, where she gave birth to sons named Eathmund
and Robert.

It is 100% proof nonsense.

Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
2021-03-21 17:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edo Janssen
There is a painting from Adriaen Pietersz. van de Venne (abt 1626) of Boudewijn of Heusden and his Wife Sophia Receive Honors from the Envoy of King Edmund.
The story of Boudewijn of Heusden is that he fought in the army of the English King and there he met his future wife. He eloped with her and together they went to Brabant in the Netherlands. Boudewijn (Baldwin or Baudouin) lived from 817 till 870.
Sophia's parents would be king Edmund or Elderick and his wife, but that's not for sure. In my research some names came by: Edmund the Martyr, Aethelwulf of Wessex and even Aelthelred I of England.
Does anyone know an English king with a daughter named Sophia? Where could I find some more information?
Ik wil niet vervelend klinken maar heb je in je onderzoek al eens ooit een Oorkondeboek opengeslagen?
Vele (Nederlandse) zijn al digitaal raadpleegbaar zodat je niet specifiek naar een goed uitgeruste bibliotheek of Archief hoeft.
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/osu/#page=0&accessor=toc&source=1&view=imagePane
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/osu/#page=0&accessor=toc&source=1&view=imagePane
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/obnb/#page=0&accessor=toc&view=homePane
om maar een paar te noemen: Holland en Zeeland, Sticht Utrecht en Noord Brabant.
Meer digitaals kun je aantreffen bij: http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retro

Als wat je zoek niet terug te vinden is dan kun je er van uitgaan dat het gefantaseerd is, sprookjes uit voorbije eeuwen. Niet meer en niet minder.

Heb je een serieuze vraag over een persoon of een middeleeuws adellijk of gegoed geslacht in zeg Nederland, dan kun je ook terecht op de Nederlandse nieuwsgroep Middeleeuwse Genealogie waar ik regelmatig actief ben.
https://groups.io/g/MiddeleeuwseGenealogie/topics

I don't want to sound nasty but have you ever opened a Charter-publication?
Many (Dutch) are already digital available so you that don't need to visit a nicely stocked library or Archive.
3 examples to name a few: Holland en Zeeland, Sticht Utrecht en Noord Brabant.
More digital ones (and other) available you can find at: http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retro

If you can not find what you search you can be sure that it is a fantasy, a fairytale from distant ages. Nothing more and nothing less.
There is always the Dutch Newsgroup Medieval Genealogy if you have a serious question about a person or a medieval nobel or landed family in lets say The Netherlands. You can find me there regularly.
https://groups.io/g/MiddeleeuwseGenealogie/topics

Met vriendelijke groet,
Hans Vogels
Edo Janssen
2021-03-21 18:37:35 UTC
Permalink
You are right. It must be a legend. Thanks for your answers.
Peter Stewart
2021-03-21 23:23:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Vogels
Post by Edo Janssen
There is a painting from Adriaen Pietersz. van de Venne (abt 1626) of Boudewijn of Heusden and his Wife Sophia Receive Honors from the Envoy of King Edmund.
The story of Boudewijn of Heusden is that he fought in the army of the English King and there he met his future wife. He eloped with her and together they went to Brabant in the Netherlands. Boudewijn (Baldwin or Baudouin) lived from 817 till 870.
Sophia's parents would be king Edmund or Elderick and his wife, but that's not for sure. In my research some names came by: Edmund the Martyr, Aethelwulf of Wessex and even Aelthelred I of England.
Does anyone know an English king with a daughter named Sophia? Where could I find some more information?
Ik wil niet vervelend klinken maar heb je in je onderzoek al eens ooit een Oorkondeboek opengeslagen?
Vele (Nederlandse) zijn al digitaal raadpleegbaar zodat je niet specifiek naar een goed uitgeruste bibliotheek of Archief hoeft.
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/osu/#page=0&accessor=toc&source=1&view=imagePane
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/osu/#page=0&accessor=toc&source=1&view=imagePane
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/obnb/#page=0&accessor=toc&view=homePane
om maar een paar te noemen: Holland en Zeeland, Sticht Utrecht en Noord Brabant.
Meer digitaals kun je aantreffen bij: http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retro
Als wat je zoek niet terug te vinden is dan kun je er van uitgaan dat het gefantaseerd is, sprookjes uit voorbije eeuwen. Niet meer en niet minder.
Heb je een serieuze vraag over een persoon of een middeleeuws adellijk of gegoed geslacht in zeg Nederland, dan kun je ook terecht op de Nederlandse nieuwsgroep Middeleeuwse Genealogie waar ik regelmatig actief ben.
https://groups.io/g/MiddeleeuwseGenealogie/topics
I don't want to sound nasty but have you ever opened a Charter-publication?
Many (Dutch) are already digital available so you that don't need to visit a nicely stocked library or Archive.
3 examples to name a few: Holland en Zeeland, Sticht Utrecht en Noord Brabant.
More digital ones (and other) available you can find at: http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retro
If you can not find what you search you can be sure that it is a fantasy, a fairytale from distant ages. Nothing more and nothing less.
There is always the Dutch Newsgroup Medieval Genealogy if you have a serious question about a person or a medieval nobel or landed family in lets say The Netherlands. You can find me there regularly.
https://groups.io/g/MiddeleeuwseGenealogie/topics
In this case one could look into charters until turning blue in the face
without finding what Edo had asked about, Hans. The source of a painting
from 1626 is indeed a fantasy, first published in 1620, but not to be
found in a charter.

Johannes a Leydis presented a genealogy of his fictitious Baldwin,
making him son of Robert who died in 857 as an aged refugee from Danes,
the first lord of Heusden (second son of Robert, count of Teisterbant,
and Kunegonda of Hoy), by Ida, daughter of the count of Cuyk.

These people do not occur in 9th-century reality, of course.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2021-03-22 00:05:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Hans Vogels
Post by Edo Janssen
There is a painting from Adriaen Pietersz. van de Venne (abt 1626) of
Boudewijn of Heusden and his Wife Sophia Receive Honors from the
Envoy of King Edmund.
The story of Boudewijn of Heusden is that he fought in the army of
the English King and there he met his future wife. He eloped with her
and together they went to Brabant in the Netherlands. Boudewijn
(Baldwin or Baudouin) lived from 817 till 870.
Sophia's parents would be king Edmund or Elderick and his wife, but
that's not for sure. In my research some names came by: Edmund the
Martyr, Aethelwulf of Wessex and even Aelthelred I of England.
Does anyone know an English king with a daughter named Sophia? Where
could I find some more information?
Ik wil niet vervelend klinken maar heb je in je onderzoek al eens ooit
een Oorkondeboek opengeslagen?
Vele (Nederlandse) zijn al digitaal raadpleegbaar zodat je niet
specifiek naar een goed uitgeruste bibliotheek of Archief hoeft.
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/osu/#page=0&accessor=toc&source=1&view=imagePane
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/osu/#page=0&accessor=toc&source=1&view=imagePane
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/obnb/#page=0&accessor=toc&view=homePane
om maar een paar te noemen: Holland en Zeeland, Sticht Utrecht en Noord Brabant.
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retro
Als wat je zoek niet terug te vinden is dan kun je er van uitgaan dat
het gefantaseerd is, sprookjes uit voorbije eeuwen. Niet meer en niet
minder.
Heb je een serieuze vraag over een persoon of een middeleeuws adellijk
of gegoed geslacht in zeg Nederland, dan kun je ook terecht op de
Nederlandse nieuwsgroep Middeleeuwse Genealogie waar ik regelmatig
actief ben.
https://groups.io/g/MiddeleeuwseGenealogie/topics
I don't want to sound nasty but have you ever opened a
Charter-publication?
Many (Dutch) are already digital available so you that don't need to
visit a nicely stocked library or Archive.
3 examples to name a few: Holland en Zeeland, Sticht Utrecht en Noord Brabant.
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retro
If you can not find what you search you can be sure that it is a
fantasy, a fairytale from distant ages. Nothing more and nothing less.
There is always the Dutch Newsgroup Medieval Genealogy if you have a
serious question about a person or a medieval nobel or landed family
in lets say The Netherlands. You can find me there regularly.
https://groups.io/g/MiddeleeuwseGenealogie/topics
In this case one could look into charters until turning blue in the face
without finding what Edo had asked about, Hans. The source of a painting
from 1626 is indeed a fantasy, first published in 1620, but not to be
found in a charter.
Johannes a Leydis presented a genealogy of his fictitious Baldwin,
making him son of Robert who died  in 857 as an aged refugee from Danes,
the first lord of Heusden (second son of Robert, count of Teisterbant,
and Kunegonda of Hoy), by Ida, daughter of the count of Cuyk.
These people do not occur in 9th-century reality, of course.
I had not recalled just how deep the imposture of Johannes a Leydis went
on this subject - according to him, the father of Robert of Teisterbant
who married Kunegonda of Huy was Baldwin, 6th count of Cleves (son of
Rost, son of John, son of Lue, son of Reynold, son of Theodoric the 1st
count), who lived in the time of Charlemagne and married Iolenta,
daughter of Louis duke of Provence.

The motivation for such preposterous falsehoods was probably the same in
the late-15th century as on the internet now, wishing to pose as expert
in stuff that most readers don't know about and can't verify.

Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
2021-03-22 06:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Hans Vogels
Post by Edo Janssen
There is a painting from Adriaen Pietersz. van de Venne (abt 1626) of Boudewijn of Heusden and his Wife Sophia Receive Honors from the Envoy of King Edmund.
The story of Boudewijn of Heusden is that he fought in the army of the English King and there he met his future wife. He eloped with her and together they went to Brabant in the Netherlands. Boudewijn (Baldwin or Baudouin) lived from 817 till 870.
Sophia's parents would be king Edmund or Elderick and his wife, but that's not for sure. In my research some names came by: Edmund the Martyr, Aethelwulf of Wessex and even Aelthelred I of England.
Does anyone know an English king with a daughter named Sophia? Where could I find some more information?
Ik wil niet vervelend klinken maar heb je in je onderzoek al eens ooit een Oorkondeboek opengeslagen?
Vele (Nederlandse) zijn al digitaal raadpleegbaar zodat je niet specifiek naar een goed uitgeruste bibliotheek of Archief hoeft.
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/osu/#page=0&accessor=toc&source=1&view=imagePane
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/osu/#page=0&accessor=toc&source=1&view=imagePane
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/obnb/#page=0&accessor=toc&view=homePane
om maar een paar te noemen: Holland en Zeeland, Sticht Utrecht en Noord Brabant.
Meer digitaals kun je aantreffen bij: http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retro
Als wat je zoek niet terug te vinden is dan kun je er van uitgaan dat het gefantaseerd is, sprookjes uit voorbije eeuwen. Niet meer en niet minder.
Heb je een serieuze vraag over een persoon of een middeleeuws adellijk of gegoed geslacht in zeg Nederland, dan kun je ook terecht op de Nederlandse nieuwsgroep Middeleeuwse Genealogie waar ik regelmatig actief ben.
https://groups.io/g/MiddeleeuwseGenealogie/topics
I don't want to sound nasty but have you ever opened a Charter-publication?
Many (Dutch) are already digital available so you that don't need to visit a nicely stocked library or Archive.
3 examples to name a few: Holland en Zeeland, Sticht Utrecht en Noord Brabant.
More digital ones (and other) available you can find at: http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retro
If you can not find what you search you can be sure that it is a fantasy, a fairytale from distant ages. Nothing more and nothing less.
There is always the Dutch Newsgroup Medieval Genealogy if you have a serious question about a person or a medieval nobel or landed family in lets say The Netherlands. You can find me there regularly.
https://groups.io/g/MiddeleeuwseGenealogie/topics
In this case one could look into charters until turning blue in the face
without finding what Edo had asked about, Hans. The source of a painting
from 1626 is indeed a fantasy, first published in 1620, but not to be
found in a charter.
Johannes a Leydis presented a genealogy of his fictitious Baldwin,
making him son of Robert who died in 857 as an aged refugee from Danes,
the first lord of Heusden (second son of Robert, count of Teisterbant,
and Kunegonda of Hoy), by Ida, daughter of the count of Cuyk.
These people do not occur in 9th-century reality, of course.
Peter Stewart
My point was that research is a different thing than googling the internet. It is astonishing that nowadays one continuously comes up faster with crap and is even serious about it. If I discard the option of the Charter-books than there is lots of information available in the genealogical literature on the subject of the Lords of Heusden. They firstly appear in the second half of the 12th century. That's something that easily can be checked.

Collecting information is different from doing research. The internet and the genealogical sites are so poluted with fairytale persons that I occasionly I get pissed off.

With regards,
Hans Vogels

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