Discussion:
Samford/Sanford Family
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Steve Klomps
2021-06-03 19:29:53 UTC
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I am new to this site, and relatively new to medieval genealogy. I am working on my wife's family, which descends through the Gov. Thomas Dudley line.

I have read the Samford/Sanford related conversations from 2020 and more specifically back in 2005. These conversations touched primarily upon the family of John de Samford (d.c.1231) who married Alice Basset, the grandparents of Alice (dau. of Gilbert de Samford) the wife of Robert de Vere, 5th Earl of Oxford; and Ada (dau. of Laurence de Samford, heir of her bro. Thomas) the wife of Walter Foliot. Both of these are in the Dudley line.

I have come across two additional Samford/Sanford families in the Dudley line. One is Christiana (dau. of Hugh de Sanford, d.c.1233) the first wife of John du Plessis (d.1263) sometime Earl of Warwick. The other is the line of Adam de Purton/Periton, who was the nephew and heir of Thomas de Sanford. This Thomas (d.bef.1242) descends from the Sanford line that held Chelworth, co. Wilts., and as such were wardens of Braydon Forest.

I have located charters relating to the Sanford families' patronage of the Priory of St. Nicholas, co. Oxon (Calendar of Charters and Rolls preserved in the Bodleian Library, Wm H Turner, ed., Oxford, 1878). These charters provide some clues to family relationships, but no complete picture. There is also the Sanford family patronage of the Priory of St. Laurence, Blackmore, co. Essex.

Does anyone know if these three Samford/Sanford families are related? Is there an existing pedigree somewhere (that I have not yet found) that pulls them together, or has anyone researched these lines to see if they spring from a common source? I do not want to reinvent the wheel if this work has already been done. If not, I will continue to work on these lines to see what I can discover. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Steve
joseph cook
2021-06-04 01:33:27 UTC
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I have come across two additional Samford/Sanford families in the Dudley line. One is Christiana (dau. of Hugh de Sanford, d.c.1233) the first wife of John du Plessis (d.1263) sometime Earl of Warwick. The other is the line of Adam de Purton/Periton, who was the nephew and heir of Thomas de Sanford. This Thomas (d.bef.1242) descends from the Sanford line that held Chelworth, co. Wilts., and as such were wardens of Braydon Forest.
Is this Adam de Periton is the one d. 1265/6 ? I have him as an ancestor of Joseph Bolles, Thomas Bradbury, but not Thomas Dudley? What is his link to Thomas Dudley? Also, what information have you found on the ancestors of Adam de Periton?
Steve Klomps
2021-06-04 18:57:56 UTC
Permalink
I have come across two additional Samford/Sanford families in the Dudley line. One is Christiana (dau. of Hugh de Sanford, d.c.1233) the first wife of John du Plessis (d.1263) sometime Earl of Warwick. The other is the line of Adam de Purton/Periton, who was the nephew and heir of Thomas de Sanford. This Thomas (d.bef.1242) descends from the Sanford line that held Chelworth, co. Wilts., and as such were wardens of Braydon Forest.
Is this Adam de Periton is the one d. 1265/6 ? I have him as an ancestor of Joseph Bolles, Thomas Bradbury, but not Thomas Dudley? What is his link to Thomas Dudley? Also, what information have you found on the ancestors of Adam de Periton?
Hi Joe, yes this is the Adam de Periton who d. 1265/6. Adam was succeeded by his grandson Robert de Keynes about 1266 (Robert was the son of William de Keynes , d. 1265, and Margaret de Periton). The line then descends from Keynes to Ayot to Purefoy to Thorne to Dudley. F.N Craig traced this line in his article: Maternal Ancestry of Governor Thomas Dudley: Purefoy, Ayot and Denton (NEHGR, Vol. 142, July 1988, pp.227-244). This is also discussed in a Conversation in 2018 by Douglas Richardson et.al. (C.P. Correction: Mother of Isabel de Periton ...).

I have only recently started looking at this line. British History Online, Parishes: Oxhill (from A History of the County of Warwick, Vol. 5, London, 1949) provides some information as follows: "In 1185 Engelram de Dumart was dead and the sheriff accounted for 2s. 11d. from his land in Oxhill, it was probably in connection with this estate that Engelram had paid 20 marks not to be impleaded in 1174. He also held land here from the Earl of Stafford in 1183. In 1186 Henry II returned Oxhill to Engelram's sisters Emma and Alice, and after the death of Emma in 1211 it was held by her son Egelin de Dumart. It was seized into the hands of King John, who in 1216 ordered the sheriff to deliver possession to Terry, or Theodoric, de Whicheford. However it was subsequently restored to Egelin and he held it at his death, after which it passed in 1219 to Thomas de Periton as nephew and heir of Egelin de Dumart. his Thomas died in 1227 leaving his son Adam as his heir, who in 1247 held one knight's fee of the king in chief. Adam was succeeded in 1266 by his grandson Robert de Keynes, son of his daughter Margaret, the wife of Sir William de Keynes of Dodford (Northants) and Coombe Keynes (Dorset), and coheir with Isabel de Welles and Katherine Paynel, Adam's other daughters, between whom the property was divided."

As mentioned in my original post, Adam de Periton succeeded Thomas de Sanford as his nephew and heir. British History Online, Royal forests: Appendices (from A History of the County of Wiltshire, Vol. 4, London, 1959) provides some interesting information under Appendix B: Wardens of the forests, (i) BRAYDON. A chart presents the names of the wardens, the date of their appointment, and the source(s) cited. The list of names and date of appointment includes:

Thomas de Sandford; appointed Temp. John

Richard de Sandford (s. and h. of above); appointed 1217

Warner de Sandford (br. and h. of above); appointed 12 Apr. 1221

Hugh de Sandford (br. and h. of above); appointed by 27 Dec. 1222

Thomas de Sandford (br. and h. of above); appointed 1231

Adam de Purton (neph. and elder coh. of above); appointed 24 Oct. 1241

Robert de Keynes (g.s. and coh. of above); appointed c. 1266

The last part above agrees with the information from Oxhill manor. I have not yet determined how Adam is the nephew and coheir of Thomas de Sandford (the other co-heir was Hugh Peverell, d. bef. 1296). Unless someone has already figured this out, more research is needed.

Regards,
Steve
joseph cook
2021-06-05 20:12:38 UTC
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Hi Joe, yes this is the Adam de Periton who d. 1265/6. Adam was succeeded by his grandson Robert de Keynes about 1266 (Robert was the son of William de Keynes , d. 1265, and Margaret de Periton). The line then descends from Keynes to Ayot to Purefoy to Thorne to Dudley. F.N Craig traced this line in his article: Maternal Ancestry of Governor Thomas Dudley: Purefoy, Ayot and Denton (NEHGR, Vol. 142, July 1988, pp.227-244). This is also discussed in a Conversation in 2018 by Douglas Richardson et.al. (C.P. Correction: Mother of Isabel de Periton ...).
Oh yes, this is coming back to me. Am I remembering wrong that F.N.Craig you are citing above for this link specifically dismissed this line from Ayot as chronologically impossible?

--Joe Cook
Steve Klomps
2021-06-05 20:29:06 UTC
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Hi Joe, yes this is the Adam de Periton who d. 1265/6. Adam was succeeded by his grandson Robert de Keynes about 1266 (Robert was the son of William de Keynes , d. 1265, and Margaret de Periton). The line then descends from Keynes to Ayot to Purefoy to Thorne to Dudley. F.N Craig traced this line in his article: Maternal Ancestry of Governor Thomas Dudley: Purefoy, Ayot and Denton (NEHGR, Vol. 142, July 1988, pp.227-244). This is also discussed in a Conversation in 2018 by Douglas Richardson et.al. (C.P. Correction: Mother of Isabel de Periton ...).
Oh yes, this is coming back to me. Am I remembering wrong that F.N.Craig you are citing above for this link specifically dismissed this line from Ayot as chronologically impossible?
--Joe Cook
The F.N. Craig question was addressed in the 2018 Conversation I referred to. The conclusion seemed to be that the Ayot connection is correct. Take a look and let me know what you think.

Steve
J. Sardina
2021-06-05 22:39:53 UTC
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Hi Joe, yes this is the Adam de Periton who d. 1265/6. Adam was succeeded by his grandson Robert de Keynes about 1266 (Robert was the son of William de Keynes , d. 1265, and Margaret de Periton). The line then descends from Keynes to Ayot to Purefoy to Thorne to Dudley. F.N Craig traced this line in his article: Maternal Ancestry of Governor Thomas Dudley: Purefoy, Ayot and Denton (NEHGR, Vol. 142, July 1988, pp.227-244). This is also discussed in a Conversation in 2018 by Douglas Richardson et.al. (C.P. Correction: Mother of Isabel de Periton ...).
Oh yes, this is coming back to me. Am I remembering wrong that F.N.Craig you are citing above for this link specifically dismissed this line from Ayot as chronologically impossible?
--Joe Cook
The F.N. Craig question was addressed in the 2018 Conversation I referred to. The conclusion seemed to be that the Ayot connection is correct. Take a look and let me know what you think.
Steve
Hello,

I was reviewing a chart prepared by John Cuerton, residing in Bilbao en 1559, and it happens to show one line going back to William Sanford, armiger, married to Alicia, daughter of a knight (milites). I can't make out the names, but the coat of arms are shown. They may correspond to a couple living in the 15th century, or earlier, related to the Quertons from Lancashire, apparently by marriage. The arms seem to be two boar heads, either gray or black, at the top, with a field of ermine at the bottom. The wife seems to have a coat of arms consisting of three horizontal bands, possibly white, or gray, separated by two dark bands. They are shown with a daughter who married another armiger, whose name I can't read, but whose arms are shown.

J. Sardina
joseph cook
2021-06-06 00:07:28 UTC
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The F.N. Craig question was addressed in the 2018 Conversation I referred to. The conclusion seemed to be that the Ayot connection is correct. Take a look and let me know what you think.
Yes, I was one of the main posters in that conversation I believe back in 2018. I disagreed with D.R> that the chronological problem could be so easily dismissed with the evidence available.

--Joe C
Steve Klomps
2021-06-07 00:44:06 UTC
Permalink
The F.N. Craig question was addressed in the 2018 Conversation I referred to. The conclusion seemed to be that the Ayot connection is correct. Take a look and let me know what you think.
Yes, I was one of the main posters in that conversation I believe back in 2018. I disagreed with D.R> that the chronological problem could be so easily dismissed with the evidence available.
--Joe C
Hi Joe, I had not realized you were a major player in that Conversation. My apologies. I will revisit that Conversation in light of your chronological problem and see where that takes me.

My interest in this line, however, is less about the decent of Gov. Thomas Dudley, and more about the relationship of Adam de Periton as nephew and heir of Thomas de Sanford. I am looking to see if there is any documented relationship between this line and Hugh de Sanford (in the du Plessis line), and John de Sanford/Samford (in the de Vere line). I keep finding members of various Sanford/Samford families in 12th and 13th century charters, with similar names, and wondered if/how they may be related.

Regards,
Steve
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
2021-06-06 13:52:59 UTC
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Post by Steve Klomps
I have only recently started looking at this line. British History Online,
Parishes: Oxhill (from A History of the County of Warwick, Vol. 5, London,
1949) provides some information as follows: "In 1185 Engelram de Dumart was
dead and the sheriff accounted for 2s. 11d. from his land in Oxhill, it was
probably in connection with this estate that Engelram had paid 20 marks not
to be impleaded in 1174. He also held land here from the Earl of Stafford in
1183. In 1186 Henry II returned Oxhill to Engelram's sisters Emma and Alice,
and after the death of Emma in 1211 it was held by her son Egelin de Dumart.
It was seized into the hands of King John, who in 1216 ordered the sheriff to
deliver possession to Terry, or Theodoric, de Whicheford. However it was
subsequently restored to Egelin and he held it at his death, after which it
passed in 1219 to Thomas de Periton as nephew and heir of Egelin de Dumart.
his Thomas died in 1227 leaving his son Adam as his heir, who in 1247 held
one knight's fee of the king in chief. Adam was succeeded in 1266 by his
grandson Robert de Keynes, son of his daughter Margaret, the wife of Sir
William de Keynes of Dodford (Northants) and Coombe Keynes (Dorset), and
coheir with Isabel de Welles and Katherine Paynel, Adam's other daughters,
between whom the property was divided."
Adam de Periton and his father Thomas are also mentioned in VCH
Northamptonshire, volume 4, "Parishes: Faxton", pp. 167-72:

"Ingelram de Dumart about 1170 granted to Robert Duredent his nephew the
messuage in Faxton which had belonged to Walter de Balliol his uncle, and a
fourth part of Faxton with a quarterium in Mawsley, Walgrave, and Moulton, for
the service of one knight, (fn. 8) Ingelram died in 1185 and Egelin de Dumart,
son of his sister Emma, in 1201–2 conveyed to Thomas de Periton a knight's fee
in Faxton and land in Northumberland and Warwickshire. (fn. 9) This Thomas was
Egelin's nephew and succeeded him in 1219, himself dying in 1227, leaving a
son Adam. (fn. 10)

"Adam de Periton, who appears to have been holding under John de Balliol
practically the whole of Faxton, was apparently identical with the Adam de
Faxton who in 1229 was in conflict with the Prior of St. Frideswide about
customs and services in Moulton. (fn. 11) In 1266 Adam de Periton died seised
of the manor of Faxton (with rents of the free tenants of Moulton and
Walgrave), which he was holding of Sir John de Balliol for 4 knights' fees and
4 marks rent. His heirs were Robert, son of Sir William de Kaynes and of
Adam's eldest daughter; Isabel, late the wife of Sir Robert de Welles, another
daughter; and Katharine, wife of John Paynel, a third daughter."

Adam de Periton's 1229 "conflict with the Prior of St. Frideswide about
customs and services in Moulton" is also mentioned in passing, in the same
volume, in "Parishes: Moulton", pp. 88-94.

"Annals of Purton" in Wiltshire Notes and Queries 1:339, December 1894,
mentions another, earlier Adam de Periton, presumably Thomas's father: "There
are only four generations of the Wiltshire Peritons known to history,
beginning with Adam de Periton, who died before 1219, and ending with his
three great granddaughters, co-heiresses, who conveyed the estates by
marriage, into the families of Vesci, Keynes and Paynel. Adam de Periton, the
last male heir and the wealthiest member of the family, in addition to his
property in land held also the bailiwick of Braden Forest, as co-heir of Sir
Thomas de Sampford, his uncle, and the Lordship of the Hundred of Staple
(which includes Purton), as joint heir with Hugh Peverell of Odred, the King's
Falconer." This is viewable at
[https://archive.org/details/wiltshirenotesqu01deviuoft/page/338/mode/2up].
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
pnh at panix dot com
nielsenhayden.com
nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng
Steve Klomps
2021-06-07 01:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Nielsen Hayden
I have only recently started looking at this line. British History Online,
Parishes: Oxhill (from A History of the County of Warwick, Vol. 5, London,
1949) provides some information as follows: "In 1185 Engelram de Dumart was
dead and the sheriff accounted for 2s. 11d. from his land in Oxhill, it was
probably in connection with this estate that Engelram had paid 20 marks not
to be impleaded in 1174. He also held land here from the Earl of Stafford in
1183. In 1186 Henry II returned Oxhill to Engelram's sisters Emma and Alice,
and after the death of Emma in 1211 it was held by her son Egelin de Dumart.
It was seized into the hands of King John, who in 1216 ordered the sheriff to
deliver possession to Terry, or Theodoric, de Whicheford. However it was
subsequently restored to Egelin and he held it at his death, after which it
passed in 1219 to Thomas de Periton as nephew and heir of Egelin de Dumart.
his Thomas died in 1227 leaving his son Adam as his heir, who in 1247 held
one knight's fee of the king in chief. Adam was succeeded in 1266 by his
grandson Robert de Keynes, son of his daughter Margaret, the wife of Sir
William de Keynes of Dodford (Northants) and Coombe Keynes (Dorset), and
coheir with Isabel de Welles and Katherine Paynel, Adam's other daughters,
between whom the property was divided."
Adam de Periton and his father Thomas are also mentioned in VCH
"Ingelram de Dumart about 1170 granted to Robert Duredent his nephew the
messuage in Faxton which had belonged to Walter de Balliol his uncle, and a
fourth part of Faxton with a quarterium in Mawsley, Walgrave, and Moulton, for
the service of one knight, (fn. 8) Ingelram died in 1185 and Egelin de Dumart,
son of his sister Emma, in 1201–2 conveyed to Thomas de Periton a knight's fee
in Faxton and land in Northumberland and Warwickshire. (fn. 9) This Thomas was
Egelin's nephew and succeeded him in 1219, himself dying in 1227, leaving a
son Adam. (fn. 10)
"Adam de Periton, who appears to have been holding under John de Balliol
practically the whole of Faxton, was apparently identical with the Adam de
Faxton who in 1229 was in conflict with the Prior of St. Frideswide about
customs and services in Moulton. (fn. 11) In 1266 Adam de Periton died seised
of the manor of Faxton (with rents of the free tenants of Moulton and
Walgrave), which he was holding of Sir John de Balliol for 4 knights' fees and
4 marks rent. His heirs were Robert, son of Sir William de Kaynes and of
Adam's eldest daughter; Isabel, late the wife of Sir Robert de Welles, another
daughter; and Katharine, wife of John Paynel, a third daughter."
Adam de Periton's 1229 "conflict with the Prior of St. Frideswide about
customs and services in Moulton" is also mentioned in passing, in the same
volume, in "Parishes: Moulton", pp. 88-94.
"Annals of Purton" in Wiltshire Notes and Queries 1:339, December 1894,
mentions another, earlier Adam de Periton, presumably Thomas's father: "There
are only four generations of the Wiltshire Peritons known to history,
beginning with Adam de Periton, who died before 1219, and ending with his
three great granddaughters, co-heiresses, who conveyed the estates by
marriage, into the families of Vesci, Keynes and Paynel. Adam de Periton, the
last male heir and the wealthiest member of the family, in addition to his
property in land held also the bailiwick of Braden Forest, as co-heir of Sir
Thomas de Sampford, his uncle, and the Lordship of the Hundred of Staple
(which includes Purton), as joint heir with Hugh Peverell of Odred, the King's
Falconer." This is viewable at
[https://archive.org/details/wiltshirenotesqu01deviuoft/page/338/mode/2up].
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
pnh at panix dot com
nielsenhayden.com
nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng
Patrick, thank you for your post. I found the "Parishes: Faxton" and the "Parishes: Moulton" sources last evening. I had not yet come across the "Annals of Purton" item. Thanks for sharing that. As a relative newcomer to this field I am continually surprised by the amount of material that is available - but there is never enough. The "art" is in the interpretation.

Steve

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