Discussion:
Chamoa Mendez wife of Gomes Mendez Guedano
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l***@gmail.com
2020-08-07 14:13:14 UTC
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Dear Group! In looking at the ancestry of Sancha de Ayala there is a Chamoa Mendez daughter of Viegas de Souza and Elvira Fernandez married to Gomes Mendez Guedano.

My first question concerns the mother of Chamoa. What is known of this Elvira Fernandez i.e of Toledo or de Marnel?

If of Toledo the father of Elvira may have been a Moor?

Second question concerns the ancestry of Gomes Mendez Guedano. He goes back to a Gueda the Old Guedeao. Is the latter the son of a mozarabe named Gomez Mendez.I have seen it stated he also had Visigothic descent?

Would love to clear this up!

Thanks for any information!

Regards:
Loren
taf
2020-08-07 16:29:03 UTC
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Post by l***@gmail.com
Dear Group! In looking at the ancestry of Sancha de Ayala there is a
Chamoa Mendez daughter of Viegas de Souza and Elvira Fernandez married
to Gomes Mendez Guedano.
My first question concerns the mother of Chamoa. What is known of this
Elvira Fernandez i.e of Toledo or de Marnel?
If of Toledo the father of Elvira may have been a Moor?
Second question concerns the ancestry of Gomes Mendez Guedano. He goes
back to a Gueda the Old Guedeao. Is the latter the son of a mozarabe
named Gomez Mendez.I have seen it stated he also had Visigothic descent?
Unfortunately, you are delving into a period in which the majority of the sources are simply traditional pedigrees or modern scholarly reconstructions (read guesswork), not fully documented with contemporary evidence. Even the link of Sancha de Ayala's documented Toledo Barroso family to the Basto-Guedoes has recently been questioned (at least in the specific details of the connection). This lack of information is further exacerbated by the internet echo chamber, where speculation, misunderstanding, error, etc. all get magnified and combined. What this means is that we are really going into the weeds with this, and it all should be taken with an ocean of salt.

Addressing your second question first, i don't have the appropriate notebook handy, but I am pretty sure the traditional pedigree of the family begins with Gueda Guedeão. That this man was son of a mozarab named Mendo Gomes with links to Toledo seems to be a more recent addition to the story, and seems highly unlikely to me. Among other things, the Mozarabs of Toledo used an entirely different pool of names, and neither Mendo nor Gomes appear in the early Toledo Mozarab records. There is always the possibility that a Mozarab who fled then-still-Muslim Toledo adopted a 'Portuguese alias' but it is more likely someone just made this up to cover over the lack of information on Gueda Guedeão. That being said, I would have to try to trace the citation tree back to see where the claim originally comes from, and I don't currently have access to the necessary sources.

As to Elvira Fernandes, the Livro de Linhagens says that she was daughter of Fernando Affonso, who was of Toledo, and his wife Orraca Goncalves, daughter of Goncalvo Vieges de Marnel. This could have provided the starting point for the claimed Marnel parentage, or it could be an attempt to render conflicting parentage by making a chimera of two versions. As to the Toledo connection, the Toledo Mozarabs did not use such names until about a century later. Fernando might have been a Castilian who took part in Toledo's capture, but it is unlikely he was a Mozarab, and even less likely he was a Moor (at least not based simply on him being supposedly from Toledo). Again, ocean of salt - this whole body of early Portuguese genealogy is sketchy, at best, but we lack any real sources on which to even evaluate it.

taf
Loren Varga
2020-08-07 17:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@gmail.com
Dear Group! In looking at the ancestry of Sancha de Ayala there is a
Chamoa Mendez daughter of Viegas de Souza and Elvira Fernandez married
to Gomes Mendez Guedano.
My first question concerns the mother of Chamoa. What is known of this
Elvira Fernandez i.e of Toledo or de Marnel?
If of Toledo the father of Elvira may have been a Moor?
Second question concerns the ancestry of Gomes Mendez Guedano. He goes
back to a Gueda the Old Guedeao. Is the latter the son of a mozarabe
named Gomez Mendez.I have seen it stated he also had Visigothic descent?
Unfortunately, you are delving into a period in which the majority of the sources are simply traditional pedigrees or modern scholarly reconstructions (read guesswork), not fully documented with contemporary evidence. Even the link of Sancha de Ayala's documented Toledo Barroso family to the Basto-Guedoes has recently been questioned (at least in the specific details of the connection). This lack of information is further exacerbated by the internet echo chamber, where speculation, misunderstanding, error, etc. all get magnified and combined. What this means is that we are really going into the weeds with this, and it all should be taken with an ocean of salt.
Addressing your second question first, i don't have the appropriate notebook handy, but I am pretty sure the traditional pedigree of the family begins with Gueda Guedeão. That this man was son of a mozarab named Mendo Gomes with links to Toledo seems to be a more recent addition to the story, and seems highly unlikely to me. Among other things, the Mozarabs of Toledo used an entirely different pool of names, and neither Mendo nor Gomes appear in the early Toledo Mozarab records. There is always the possibility that a Mozarab who fled then-still-Muslim Toledo adopted a 'Portuguese alias' but it is more likely someone just made this up to cover over the lack of information on Gueda Guedeão. That being said, I would have to try to trace the citation tree back to see where the claim originally comes from, and I don't currently have access to the necessary sources.
As to Elvira Fernandes, the Livro de Linhagens says that she was daughter of Fernando Affonso, who was of Toledo, and his wife Orraca Goncalves, daughter of Goncalvo Vieges de Marnel. This could have provided the starting point for the claimed Marnel parentage, or it could be an attempt to render conflicting parentage by making a chimera of two versions. As to the Toledo connection, the Toledo Mozarabs did not use such names until about a century later. Fernando might have been a Castilian who took part in Toledo's capture, but it is unlikely he was a Mozarab, and even less likely he was a Moor (at least not based simply on him being supposedly from Toledo). Again, ocean of salt - this whole body of early Portuguese genealogy is sketchy, at best, but we lack any real sources on which to even evaluate it.
taf
Thanks Todd for your response!

I have the following from a post by Nat Taylor in 2014. I will quote:
Elvira Fernandez is a daughter of a Fernando Alfonso de Toledo who was a moor and the king Dom Alfonso made him Christian because he was an honored man and of great company and was his godfather and married him to Urraca Gonzalez dau of Gonzalo Viegas de Marnel. (LL 22 D.8,43.B.3)

An Elvira Fernandez or a Teresa Fernandez de Marnal daughter of a Fernando Marnal is listed in Portugese Genealogies as being married to Viegas de Sousa with the latter as being the mother of Chamoa.

May I humbly ask for your opinion on this?

Regards:
Loren
taf
2020-08-07 17:51:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Loren Varga
Elvira Fernandez is a daughter of a Fernando Alfonso de Toledo who was a
moor and the king Dom Alfonso made him Christian because he was an honored
man and of great company and was his godfather and married him to Urraca
Gonzalez dau of Gonzalo Viegas de Marnel. (LL 22 D.8,43.B.3)
This is citing the same source I cited, the Livro de Linhagens (LL) but the version I was looking at did not have the Moor claim, so there are obviously different versions around. Is the Moor part a later interpolation, or was it removed from my version (through error or intent). I am unaware of any other source for this supposed scenario, and as I said, one has to be very careful. It could be that it reflects authentic history, that a Muslim converted and took the name of Fernando Alfonso, or alternatively it could be that this was the earliest someone could trace the family, to an otherwise unknown Fernando Alfonso, and so they concocted a secret exotic origin because the fact that their ancestry could be unknown and obscure is just too unsatisfying.
Post by Loren Varga
An Elvira Fernandez or a Teresa Fernandez de Marnal daughter of a Fernando
Marnal is listed in Portugese Genealogies as being married to Viegas de
Sousa with the latter as being the mother of Chamoa.
This is what I was vaguely referring to in the previous response. These pedigrees have gotten all blurred and botched in transmission. It could be that this is just a highly distorted representation of the same relationship, perhaps purging the claimed Moorish connection to make the Sousa wife a Marnel rather than daughter of a Marnel, perhaps just confusion, or alternatively, there could be two conflicting versions, in one where she was a Fernandes de Toledo and in the other a Marnel, and the version in the Livro de Linhagens represents an attempt to take the two conflicting variants and make a combined version of the two.

Certainly the version you relate is problematic - Viegas is not a full name, it is a patronymic, meaning son of Egas (alt Vega), so Viegas de Sousa is not a full name. This suggests that it is a confused derivation of what it is relating, and this makes one wonder if the other details in this account might likewise be corrupted, but one can only speculate unless some intermediate can be identified that would give a better idea what happened.

taf
Peter Stewart
2020-08-07 23:35:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Loren Varga
Post by l***@gmail.com
Dear Group! In looking at the ancestry of Sancha de Ayala there is a
Chamoa Mendez daughter of Viegas de Souza and Elvira Fernandez married
to Gomes Mendez Guedano.
My first question concerns the mother of Chamoa. What is known of this
Elvira Fernandez i.e of Toledo or de Marnel?
If of Toledo the father of Elvira may have been a Moor?
Second question concerns the ancestry of Gomes Mendez Guedano. He goes
back to a Gueda the Old Guedeao. Is the latter the son of a mozarabe
named Gomez Mendez.I have seen it stated he also had Visigothic descent?
Unfortunately, you are delving into a period in which the majority of the sources are simply traditional pedigrees or modern scholarly reconstructions (read guesswork), not fully documented with contemporary evidence. Even the link of Sancha de Ayala's documented Toledo Barroso family to the Basto-Guedoes has recently been questioned (at least in the specific details of the connection). This lack of information is further exacerbated by the internet echo chamber, where speculation, misunderstanding, error, etc. all get magnified and combined. What this means is that we are really going into the weeds with this, and it all should be taken with an ocean of salt.
Addressing your second question first, i don't have the appropriate notebook handy, but I am pretty sure the traditional pedigree of the family begins with Gueda Guedeão. That this man was son of a mozarab named Mendo Gomes with links to Toledo seems to be a more recent addition to the story, and seems highly unlikely to me. Among other things, the Mozarabs of Toledo used an entirely different pool of names, and neither Mendo nor Gomes appear in the early Toledo Mozarab records. There is always the possibility that a Mozarab who fled then-still-Muslim Toledo adopted a 'Portuguese alias' but it is more likely someone just made this up to cover over the lack of information on Gueda Guedeão. That being said, I would have to try to trace the citation tree back to see where the claim originally comes from, and I don't currently have access to the necessary sources.
As to Elvira Fernandes, the Livro de Linhagens says that she was daughter of Fernando Affonso, who was of Toledo, and his wife Orraca Goncalves, daughter of Goncalvo Vieges de Marnel. This could have provided the starting point for the claimed Marnel parentage, or it could be an attempt to render conflicting parentage by making a chimera of two versions. As to the Toledo connection, the Toledo Mozarabs did not use such names until about a century later. Fernando might have been a Castilian who took part in Toledo's capture, but it is unlikely he was a Mozarab, and even less likely he was a Moor (at least not based simply on him being supposedly from Toledo). Again, ocean of salt - this whole body of early Portuguese genealogy is sketchy, at best, but we lack any real sources on which to even evaluate it.
taf
Thanks Todd for your response!
Elvira Fernandez is a daughter of a Fernando Alfonso de Toledo who was a moor and the king Dom Alfonso made him Christian because he was an honored man and of great company and was his godfather and married him to Urraca Gonzalez dau of Gonzalo Viegas de Marnel. (LL 22 D.8,43.B.3)
It is worth taking care over punctuation in this translated passage -
the meaning is made clearer as follows:

"the king Dom Alfonso made him Christian because he was an honored man
and of great company; and [the king] was his godfather and married him
to Urraca Gonzalez"'

"Godfather" may be the literal term used in the original, but "sponsor"
is more usual in English with an adult baptism.

Peter Stewart

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