Discussion:
Stoke by Clare Cartulary - assistance please
(too old to reply)
Peter G. M. Dale
2021-04-09 06:51:43 UTC
Permalink
Greetings,

I would be grateful if someone would please provide me with a copy of charter no. 329 from the Stoke by Clare Cartulary: BL Cotton Appx. Xxi, Part 2, (1982), edited by Christopher Harper-Bill and Richard Mortimer. I cannot find a copy of that particular charter online and have no access to libraries currently given the pandemic restrictions. I understand that it references Stephen de Camoys and it is the Camoys family that is of interest to me. Many thanks in advance for any assistance.

Cheers,

Pete
pdale (at) peterdale (dot) com
Peter Stewart
2021-04-09 10:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
I would be grateful if someone would please provide me with a copy of charter no. 329 from the Stoke by Clare Cartulary: BL Cotton Appx. Xxi, Part 2, (1982), edited by Christopher Harper-Bill and Richard Mortimer. I cannot find a copy of that particular charter online and have no access to libraries currently given the pandemic restrictions. I understand that it references Stephen de Camoys and it is the Camoys family that is of interest to me. Many thanks in advance for any assistance.
This is on p 227:

"329. Grant by Stephen de Camais to the monks in free alms of
Toppesfield church, for the souls of Robert son of Humphrey his father
and others. Late twelfth century.
ccllii. Carta Stephani de Cameis de eadem.
Omnibus sancte matris ecclesie ecclesie filiis et fidelibus Stephanus de
Camais salutem. Noverit universitas vestra me dedisse et hac mea
presenti carta confirmasse Deo et Sancto Iohanni Baptiste de Stoket
monachis ibidem Deo servientibus ecclesiam de Topisfeld cum omnibus
pertinenciis et libertatibus suis, quas habet in terris et decimis et
omnibus aliis rebus et obvencionibus liberam inperpetuam et puram
elemosinam sicut aliqua elemosina liberior esse potest pro anima Roberti
filii Hunfridi patris mei et pro salute anime mee et uxoris mee, et
heredum et omnium antecessorum meorum. Huic donacionis testes sunt
Hunfridus filius Walteri et alii."

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2021-04-09 16:47:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
I would be grateful if someone would please provide me with a copy of charter no. 329 from the Stoke by Clare Cartulary: BL Cotton Appx. Xxi, Part 2, (1982), edited by Christopher Harper-Bill and Richard Mortimer. I cannot find a copy of that particular charter online and have no access to libraries currently given the pandemic restrictions. I understand that it references Stephen de Camoys and it is the Camoys family that is of interest to me. Many thanks in advance for any assistance.
"329. Grant by Stephen de Camais to the monks in free alms of
Toppesfield church, for the souls of Robert son of Humphrey his father
and others. Late twelfth century.
ccllii. Carta Stephani de Cameis de eadem.
Omnibus sancte matris ecclesie ecclesie filiis et fidelibus Stephanus de
Camais salutem. Noverit universitas vestra me dedisse et hac mea
presenti carta confirmasse Deo et Sancto Iohanni Baptiste de Stoket
monachis ibidem Deo servientibus ecclesiam de Topisfeld cum omnibus
pertinenciis et libertatibus suis, quas habet in terris et decimis et
omnibus aliis rebus et obvencionibus liberam inperpetuam et puram
elemosinam sicut aliqua elemosina liberior esse potest pro anima Roberti
filii Hunfridi patris mei et pro salute anime mee et uxoris mee, et
heredum et omnium antecessorum meorum. Huic donacionis testes sunt
Hunfridus filius Walteri et alii."
Peter Stewart
Many thanks Peter! Much appreciated. A brief follow-up if you're amenable. I'd also like to see a copy of charters nos. 326 and 330. Unfortunately I didn't know of these when I posted yesterday. In addition, I'm curious if there are any other charters referencing either Stephen de Camoys or his father Robert fitz Humphrey in the Stoke cartulary. I'm attempting to establish the ancestry of Stephen de Camoys (d c 1198), purported husband of Maud de la Leigh. Apparently he's related to Mabel de Bec somehow via his father Robert fitz Humphrey. In what manner, I have no idea currently.

If the ask above is a burdensome task based on what's available, please pass. However, if it is not too onerous, I'd be grateful, and provide you with an IOU from me if there are any resources you require in Toronto (i.e. University of Toronto's Robarts Library or Pontifical Institute of Medieval Studies) when available!

Cheers,

Pete
Peter Stewart
2021-04-09 23:23:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
I would be grateful if someone would please provide me with a copy of charter no. 329 from the Stoke by Clare Cartulary: BL Cotton Appx. Xxi, Part 2, (1982), edited by Christopher Harper-Bill and Richard Mortimer. I cannot find a copy of that particular charter online and have no access to libraries currently given the pandemic restrictions. I understand that it references Stephen de Camoys and it is the Camoys family that is of interest to me. Many thanks in advance for any assistance.
"329. Grant by Stephen de Camais to the monks in free alms of
Toppesfield church, for the souls of Robert son of Humphrey his father
and others. Late twelfth century.
ccllii. Carta Stephani de Cameis de eadem.
Omnibus sancte matris ecclesie ecclesie filiis et fidelibus Stephanus de
Camais salutem. Noverit universitas vestra me dedisse et hac mea
presenti carta confirmasse Deo et Sancto Iohanni Baptiste de Stoket
monachis ibidem Deo servientibus ecclesiam de Topisfeld cum omnibus
pertinenciis et libertatibus suis, quas habet in terris et decimis et
omnibus aliis rebus et obvencionibus liberam inperpetuam et puram
elemosinam sicut aliqua elemosina liberior esse potest pro anima Roberti
filii Hunfridi patris mei et pro salute anime mee et uxoris mee, et
heredum et omnium antecessorum meorum. Huic donacionis testes sunt
Hunfridus filius Walteri et alii."
Peter Stewart
Many thanks Peter! Much appreciated. A brief follow-up if you're amenable. I'd also like to see a copy of charters nos. 326 and 330. Unfortunately I didn't know of these when I posted yesterday. In addition, I'm curious if there are any other charters referencing either Stephen de Camoys or his father Robert fitz Humphrey in the Stoke cartulary. I'm attempting to establish the ancestry of Stephen de Camoys (d c 1198), purported husband of Maud de la Leigh. Apparently he's related to Mabel de Bec somehow via his father Robert fitz Humphrey. In what manner, I have no idea currently.
If the ask above is a burdensome task based on what's available, please pass. However, if it is not too onerous, I'd be grateful, and provide you with an IOU from me if there are any resources you require in Toronto (i.e. University of Toronto's Robarts Library or Pontifical Institute of Medieval Studies) when available!
Sorry, I don't have a copy of the book - yesterday I asked a librarian
friend to send me a scan of charter #329 but she is not on duty today.

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2021-04-10 01:35:32 UTC
Permalink
Got it! Many thanks again Peter - much appreciated.

Cheers,

Pete
lancast...@gmail.com
2021-04-11 10:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Got it! Many thanks again Peter - much appreciated.
Cheers,
Pete
Hi Peter, would you happen to be an Ancestry.com subscriber? There is a copy there. I will contact you.

Regards
Andrew
Peter G. M. Dale
2021-04-12 14:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi Andrew, many thanks! My apologies for the delay in replying. I’ve been buried reviewing the cartulary on Ancestry.ca! I’m really grateful for your head’s-up and e-mails. They have proved invaluable and are much appreciated!

Cheers,

Pete
Peter G. M. Dale
2021-04-21 04:46:31 UTC
Permalink
Greetings,

In 'Cardigan Priory in the Olden Days', (1904), by Emily M. Pritchard, Appendix, p. 163, no. DXLVIII (https://archive.org/details/cardiganprioryin00prituoft/page/162/mode/2up) it states the following at the end of the charter and I’m curious what it means:

“Et insuper dedi eis, pro anima patris mei, et super altare Sancti Paterni per cultellum Humfridi filii Goismeri misi, partem meam molendini quod ipsi fecerunt super Redian, et hospitium cum horto in Stratinouric.”

In particular, I’m interested in the part about Humfridi filii Goismeri. Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you!

Cheers,

Pete
Peter Stewart
2021-04-21 06:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
“Et insuper dedi eis, pro anima patris mei, et super altare Sancti Paterni per cultellum Humfridi filii Goismeri misi, partem meam molendini quod ipsi fecerunt super Redian, et hospitium cum horto in Stratinouric.”
In particular, I’m interested in the part about Humfridi filii Goismeri. Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you!
This means that he had placed his own donation (presumably the charter
itself, or some token of it) on the altar of St Padarn church beside the
knife of Humphrey fitz Goismer (who had witnessed a charter of Henry I
in the 1120s).

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2021-04-22 02:24:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
“Et insuper dedi eis, pro anima patris mei, et super altare Sancti Paterni per cultellum Humfridi filii Goismeri misi, partem meam molendini quod ipsi fecerunt super Redian, et hospitium cum horto in Stratinouric.”
In particular, I’m interested in the part about Humfridi filii Goismeri. Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you!
This means that he had placed his own donation (presumably the charter
itself, or some token of it) on the altar of St Padarn church beside the
knife of Humphrey fitz Goismer (who had witnessed a charter of Henry I
in the 1120s).
Peter Stewart
Many thanks Peter - much appreciated. To your knowledge, is there any significance to the use of the knife by Humphrey? Perhaps some symbolism of which I'm unaware? Cheers, Pete
Peter Stewart
2021-04-22 02:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
“Et insuper dedi eis, pro anima patris mei, et super altare Sancti Paterni per cultellum Humfridi filii Goismeri misi, partem meam molendini quod ipsi fecerunt super Redian, et hospitium cum horto in Stratinouric.”
In particular, I’m interested in the part about Humfridi filii Goismeri. Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you!
This means that he had placed his own donation (presumably the charter
itself, or some token of it) on the altar of St Padarn church beside the
knife of Humphrey fitz Goismer (who had witnessed a charter of Henry I
in the 1120s).
Peter Stewart
Many thanks Peter - much appreciated. To your knowledge, is there any significance to the use of the knife by Humphrey? Perhaps some symbolism of which I'm unaware? Cheers, Pete
I haven't any useful idea about this - presumably Humphrey fitz Goismer
had some importance at St Padarn church as a benefactor if his knife was
already on the altar there, or perhaps more likley some involvement in
the properties donated by Richard fitz Gilbert and/or another personal
connection to him if he had placed it there for the occasion in order to
solemnise his act.

More usually, when mentioned at all, charters or tokens of generosity
(just hands in some cases) were laid on altars without reference to
other objects.

Peter Stewart
lancast...@gmail.com
2021-04-23 21:04:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
“Et insuper dedi eis, pro anima patris mei, et super altare Sancti Paterni per cultellum Humfridi filii Goismeri misi, partem meam molendini quod ipsi fecerunt super Redian, et hospitium cum horto in Stratinouric.”
In particular, I’m interested in the part about Humfridi filii Goismeri. Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you!
This means that he had placed his own donation (presumably the charter
itself, or some token of it) on the altar of St Padarn church beside the
knife of Humphrey fitz Goismer (who had witnessed a charter of Henry I
in the 1120s).
Peter Stewart
Many thanks Peter - much appreciated. To your knowledge, is there any significance to the use of the knife by Humphrey? Perhaps some symbolism of which I'm unaware? Cheers, Pete
I am currently reading a book called Do ut Des by Arnoud-Jan Bijsterveld (University of Tilburg) which is about the gifting culture of the middle ages, and my impression so far is that knives and gauntlets were reasonably common as token gifts to seal something bigger.
Peter Stewart
2021-04-23 23:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
“Et insuper dedi eis, pro anima patris mei, et super altare Sancti Paterni per cultellum Humfridi filii Goismeri misi, partem meam molendini quod ipsi fecerunt super Redian, et hospitium cum horto in Stratinouric.”
In particular, I’m interested in the part about Humfridi filii Goismeri. Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you!
This means that he had placed his own donation (presumably the charter
itself, or some token of it) on the altar of St Padarn church beside the
knife of Humphrey fitz Goismer (who had witnessed a charter of Henry I
in the 1120s).
Peter Stewart
Many thanks Peter - much appreciated. To your knowledge, is there any significance to the use of the knife by Humphrey? Perhaps some symbolism of which I'm unaware? Cheers, Pete
I am currently reading a book called Do ut Des by Arnoud-Jan Bijsterveld (University of Tilburg) which is about the gifting culture of the middle ages, and my impression so far is that knives and gauntlets were reasonably common as token gifts to seal something bigger.
Reasonably common within the whole vast field of pious donation or
within the small sub-set of gifts where the donor mentioned any object/s
placed on an altar?

And then within that sub-set is it reasonably common or not to reference
someone else's possession as the solemnising token?

These questions should be answerable just by searching for the word
"altare" in a major Anglo-Norman cartulary. I think you will find that
overall the practice in Richard fitz Gilbert's charter was extremely
uncommon in his time and place.

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2021-04-24 06:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Greetings,

If someone has visibility on 'The Charters of Norwich Cathedral Priory', (1974), by Barbara Dodwell, Pipe Roll Society, Volume 84, I'd be grateful for copies of charters nos. 277, 278 and 281. In particular, I'm looking for the charters, or confirmations thereof, of Mabel de Bec. Many thanks!

Cheers,

Pete
Peter Stewart
2021-04-24 07:55:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
If someone has visibility on 'The Charters of Norwich Cathedral Priory', (1974), by Barbara Dodwell, Pipe Roll Society, Volume 84, I'd be grateful for copies of charters nos. 277, 278 and 281. In particular, I'm looking for the charters, or confirmations thereof, of Mabel de Bec. Many thanks!
I'm not sure you realise what you are asking, or that repeated look-up
requests are appropriate anyway for this newsgroup.

These documents are papal confirmations. The only mention I can spot of
a Mabel in the last two is "Herpeleyam quam dedit illustris matrona
Mabilia" in no. 281 of Alexander III, dated 17 September 1176, and the
same with minor variants in no. 278 of Adrian IV, dated 1 March 1155.

The first one is probably of more use to you, no. 277 of Eugene III
dated 28 March written 1150/53:

"Ea propter dilecti in domino filii vestris justis postulationibus
benignum inpertientes assensum donationem quam nobilis mulier Mabilia de
Becco pro redemptione peccatorum suorum ecclesie sancte Trinitatis in
qua divino mancipati estis obsequio rationabili providentia contulit et
scripti sui munimine roboravit vobis et per vos prefate ecclesie
auctoritate sedis apostolice confirmamus, et perpetuis temporibus ratam
manere censemus, terram videlicet de Harpeleya cum pertinentiis suiis,
terram quoque et hominium Johannis filii Assaci de Floketorp cum censu
et consuetudinibus atque servitiis ad eandem terram pertinentibus.
Siquis igitur huius nostre confirmationis paginam sciens contra eam
temere venire temptaverit nisi reatum suum digna satisfactione
correxerit indignationem omnipotentis Dei et beatorum Petri ac Pauli
apostolorum eius se noverit incursurum. Dat' Lat' v kalendas Aprilis."

Please don't ask for another lot, this is surely not so urgent that it
can't wait until you can visit a library in person.

Peter Stewart
lancast...@gmail.com
2021-04-24 14:04:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
“Et insuper dedi eis, pro anima patris mei, et super altare Sancti Paterni per cultellum Humfridi filii Goismeri misi, partem meam molendini quod ipsi fecerunt super Redian, et hospitium cum horto in Stratinouric.”
In particular, I’m interested in the part about Humfridi filii Goismeri. Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you!
This means that he had placed his own donation (presumably the charter
itself, or some token of it) on the altar of St Padarn church beside the
knife of Humphrey fitz Goismer (who had witnessed a charter of Henry I
in the 1120s).
Peter Stewart
Many thanks Peter - much appreciated. To your knowledge, is there any significance to the use of the knife by Humphrey? Perhaps some symbolism of which I'm unaware? Cheers, Pete
I am currently reading a book called Do ut Des by Arnoud-Jan Bijsterveld (University of Tilburg) which is about the gifting culture of the middle ages, and my impression so far is that knives and gauntlets were reasonably common as token gifts to seal something bigger.
Reasonably common within the whole vast field of pious donation or
within the small sub-set of gifts where the donor mentioned any object/s
placed on an altar?
And then within that sub-set is it reasonably common or not to reference
someone else's possession as the solemnising token?
These questions should be answerable just by searching for the word
"altare" in a major Anglo-Norman cartulary. I think you will find that
overall the practice in Richard fitz Gilbert's charter was extremely
uncommon in his time and place.
Peter Stewart
I don't think that googling altare is going to quickly get me much real knowledge of what was most common, and that's why I just offered it as an observation. Bijsterveld's book which I happen to be reading does have a continental emphasis, and especially the Southern Low Countries. One of the knife examples is from Paris though. At least this information indicates that knives are not unprecedented in that type of context, and maybe that is helpful (or maybe not).
lancast...@gmail.com
2021-04-24 15:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
“Et insuper dedi eis, pro anima patris mei, et super altare Sancti Paterni per cultellum Humfridi filii Goismeri misi, partem meam molendini quod ipsi fecerunt super Redian, et hospitium cum horto in Stratinouric.”
In particular, I’m interested in the part about Humfridi filii Goismeri. Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you!
This means that he had placed his own donation (presumably the charter
itself, or some token of it) on the altar of St Padarn church beside the
knife of Humphrey fitz Goismer (who had witnessed a charter of Henry I
in the 1120s).
Peter Stewart
Many thanks Peter - much appreciated. To your knowledge, is there any significance to the use of the knife by Humphrey? Perhaps some symbolism of which I'm unaware? Cheers, Pete
I am currently reading a book called Do ut Des by Arnoud-Jan Bijsterveld (University of Tilburg) which is about the gifting culture of the middle ages, and my impression so far is that knives and gauntlets were reasonably common as token gifts to seal something bigger.
Reasonably common within the whole vast field of pious donation or
within the small sub-set of gifts where the donor mentioned any object/s
placed on an altar?
And then within that sub-set is it reasonably common or not to reference
someone else's possession as the solemnising token?
These questions should be answerable just by searching for the word
"altare" in a major Anglo-Norman cartulary. I think you will find that
overall the practice in Richard fitz Gilbert's charter was extremely
uncommon in his time and place.
Peter Stewart
I don't think that googling altare is going to quickly get me much real knowledge of what was most common, and that's why I just offered it as an observation. Bijsterveld's book which I happen to be reading does have a continental emphasis, and especially the Southern Low Countries. One of the knife examples is from Paris though. At least this information indicates that knives are not unprecedented in that type of context, and maybe that is helpful (or maybe not).
In case helpful to Peter Dale, I just offer some quotes from Bijsterveld, Do ut Des...

p. 58: "In the Central Middle Ages, it is also evident that, in the Low Countries, the traditio ad altare was generally considered the decisive moment in the giving of a pious gift. The benefactor would renounce his or her good by depositing an object on the altar - often an object with symbolic significance, such as a staff, knife, glove, hammer, or book - or an object that made a direct reference to the real estate or its proceeds, such as a ball of soil, a sod, a stalk, a twig, some reeds, etc."

On page 72 it is explained that such symbols of renunciation came to be seen as symbols of transfer or conveyance. "At first, this would have involved a so-called festuca, a piece of wood with signs cut into it, which might be explained as the parallel carvings of a knife. Referring to this festuca, the legal transaction was also called exfestucatio, and the verb effestucare, meaning 'to renouce', is often encountered in charters. To symbolize the renunciation, the festuca was sometimes broken, and the knife sometimes bent."

pp. 72-3: "The origin of a particular object's use can sometimes be surmised: the knife, for instance, is likely to symbolize cutting the tie between the previous proprietor and the given good, and taking off a glove might also symbolize a similar parting between the possessor and his or her possession. The glove often symbolized the hand of the person handing over the gift, and, in a metaphorical sense, his or her power or lordship. In fact, objects such as knives, which were part of people's everyday outfit, and items of clothing such as gloves were so intimately connected with individuals themselves that the object in question could represent the individual him- or herself, as in marriage by proxy, which often involved a glove. [...] Sometimes objects derived from a third party, such as a relative who expressed his or her approval, the giver's lord, or a witness.

Two works cited are in German: Schwinköper wrote a work called Der Handschuh im Recht; Von Künssberg wrote one called Messerbräuche.
Peter Stewart
2021-04-24 21:57:55 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Stewart
These questions should be answerable just by searching for the word
"altare" in a major Anglo-Norman cartulary. I think you will find that
overall the practice in Richard fitz Gilbert's charter was extremely
uncommon in his time and place.
Peter Stewart
I don't think that googling altare is going to quickly get me much real knowledge of what was most common, and that's why I just offered it as an observation. Bijsterveld's book which I happen to be reading does have a continental emphasis, and especially the Southern Low Countries. One of the knife examples is from Paris though. At least this information indicates that knives are not unprecedented in that type of context, and maybe that is helpful (or maybe not).
I wasn't for a moment suggesting that knives were unprecedented, or that
anyone should engage in such a futile procedure as Googling. Instead I
meant the simple task of using a searchable scan - probably more readily
obtained from Internet Archive or Hathi trust - and finding how often
the word "altare" occurs. This will sometimes be just for the placement
of candles, but more often a ritual presentation of the gift itself (in
the form of the donor's charter and/or some object) to God and the
saint/s to whom the church was dedicated.

This will quickly tell you that the practice was not very common
overall, or at least not very commonly detailed in charters, and the
specific enactment of it in Richard fitz Gilbert's case with someone
else's knife even less so.

For instance, in the first volume of the cartulary of St Peter's abbey,
Gloucester, there are less than a dozen instances only one of which
involves a knife (undated: "super altare Sancti Petri liberam et quietam
per cultellum posuit" - the knife's owner is not specified, presumably
it belonged to the donor).

A minute's work, not resulting in what I would describe as "reasonably
common".

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2021-04-25 00:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Thank you both Andrew & Peter for your assistance - much appreciated. I'm endeavouring to determine how Humphrey fitz Goismer and his son Robert fitz Humphrey are related to the Clare and Bec families. Notwithstanding what may have been stated or suggested in various secondary source materials, I believe that one of Humphrey or his son Robert married a Clare while the other married a Bec. However, I haven't yet established who married whom or confirmed the foregoing is in fact the case. Thanks again!

Cheers,

Pete
Peter Stewart
2021-04-25 01:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Thank you both Andrew & Peter for your assistance - much appreciated. I'm endeavouring to determine how Humphrey fitz Goismer and his son Robert fitz Humphrey are related to the Clare and Bec families. Notwithstanding what may have been stated or suggested in various secondary source materials, I believe that one of Humphrey or his son Robert married a Clare while the other married a Bec. However, I haven't yet established who married whom or confirmed the foregoing is in fact the case. Thanks again!
Luck may be required, assuming there was a link by marriage in the first
place - in general I think charters provide the best evidence for
relationships, but people did not often make their connections explicit
when there was no need to do so.

In the case of Humphrey fitz Goismer it may be possible to get some kind
of triangulation from later property tenure in the Camoys family, though
he doesn't seem to occur very frequently in his own time. In *Domesday
People* Keats-Rohan noted that Goismer was a tenant of Richard de Clare,
repeated about Humphrey in *Domesday Descendants* where she cited only
the charter of Henry I witnessed by him (in Monasticon vol. IV p. 130
that was misprinted as vol. V) and the Stoke-by-Clare cartulary.

With so little to go on, and nothing more likely to turn up, it may be
impossible to get much further.

Peter Stewart
jason...@gmail.com
2021-04-25 04:34:30 UTC
Permalink
Thank you both Andrew & Peter for your assistance - much appreciated. I'm endeavouring to determine how Humphrey fitz Goismer and his son Robert fitz Humphrey are related to the Clare and Bec families. Notwithstanding what may have been stated or suggested in various secondary source materials, I believe that one of Humphrey or his son Robert married a Clare while the other married a Bec. However, I haven't yet established who married whom or confirmed the foregoing is in fact the case. Thanks again!
Cheers,
Pete
Pete,

I have these brief notes from another project I was working on if that helps. - Thanks Jason

(Same Goisemer?) Goisfrid fitz Haimonis, tenant of Richard de Clare in 1086 who had a son Baldwin. Domesday People pg. 229

(Gen1)
Goisemer had tithes in Chipley in 1141 Stoke By Clare Cart. Had sons Algar, Guncelin, Herluin, Humfrid, and Willelm. Domesday Descendants pg. 900,

(Gen 2)
Humphrey fitz Goisemer = Margaret heiress of Mabel fitz Walter de Bec
Son 1 Robert Fitz Humphrey had a son Stephen de Cameis who was liv. 1189
Son 2 Roger fitz Humphrey
Son 3 Walter fitz Humphrey liv. 1166 -1203 (Walter held 5½ fees of Roger de Clare in 1166) = Agnes daughter of William Capra. Walter had a son Humphrey and another son Walter Fitz Humphrey
Son 4 Gilbert fitz Humphrey
Domesday Descendants pgs. 915, 968
Peter G. M. Dale
2021-04-25 07:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Greetings,

I’m working my way through a plethora of material related to Goismer’s descendants. As I said, I’m trying to confirm the blood relationships, if any, among Goismer’s family and the Clare and Bec families. My initial observations are as follows (I have references for everything immediately below but have not included them currently so that it is easier to follow – I can provide on request of course):

[1] Goismer (b c 1050-1060) had at least six sons and possible a 7th:
(* = speculative)

• Humphrey
• Herluin - sons – Gilbert (predeceased his father) and Geoffrey*
• Guncelin – sons – Conan*
• Alger – sons – Richard and Geoffrey*
• Walter –
• William –
• Ralph*

The identity of the sons’ wives remains unknown.

[2] Humphrey (b c 1080-1090) had at least 4 sons and possibly as many as 9:

• Robert (constable under earls Gilbert and Roger de Clare)
• Walter – son Humphrey fitz Walter (b c 1155) and grandson Walter fitz Humphrey (b c 1180)
• Roger
• Gilbert
• William*
• Geoffrey*
• Reginald*
• Ralph* - wife is Liece and daughter Mabel married Roger Walensis
• Richard*

[3] Robert (b c 1120) is purported to have married an heir of Mabel de Bec who was, in turn, purported to be married to Stephen I de Camoys. Robert had the following sons:

• Stephen II de Camoys
• Walter de Camoys
• Humphrey fitz Robert* - wife is Petronilla
• Adam fitz Robert*

[4] Stephen II de Camoys (b c 1150) is purported to have married Maud, daughter of Gilbert de la Leigh and have had the following children:

• Margery – husband is John de Briwere – son Robert
• Ralph I (heir) – son Ralph II
• Henry
• Walter
• Amabel – husband is Miles de Somery

I found the following item in ‘Rotuli de Dominabus’, which is translated in ‘Women's Lives in Medieval Europe’, that states the following regarding Robert fitz Humphrey:

“Cecily of Bowthorpe is in the gift of the Lord King; she has had two husbands, Hugh de Scotcia and Eustace of Leyham. By Hugh she had three sons, and by Eustace two sons and two daughters. Reginald, her firstborn son and heir, is 24 years old; his father Eustace was of the family of the count of Meulan and a kinsman of Robert fitzHumphrey. The aforesaid Cecily is of the family of the Earl of Redvers, and she is 50 years old. Her land in Bowthorpe is worth £8. The aforesaid Reginald her son has a wife, the niece of the sheriff Wimer, whom, according to Wimer, he received from the King.”
('Rotuli de Dominabus et Pueris et Peullis de XII Comitatibus 1185', (1913), by John Horace Round, 'Norfolk - Taverham Hundred', p. 48 - https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/item/337371-rotuli-de-dominabus-et-pueris-et-puellis-de-xii-comitatibus-1185-printed-from-the-original-in-the-custody-of-the-right-hon-the-master-of-the-rolls-under-the-direction-of-the-council-of-the-pipe-roll-society?viewer=1&offset=0#page=94&viewer=picture&o=info&n=0&q=; 'Women's Lives in Medieval Europe', (1993), edited by Emile Amt, p. 157 - https://books.google.ca/books?id=tq90_vdI0LYC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=%22eustace+of+leyham%22&source=bl&ots=1kaoxof6om&sig=ACfU3U3janfVS5BG9qSIzlKXmoqP479KRQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiH35vQyvXvAhXEZc0KHV59BhMQ6AEwAHoECAIQAw#v=onepage&q=%22eustace%20of%20leyham%22&f=false)

I have reviewed all the charters that I have currently identified that are witnessed by Humphrey (#2 above). They include the following. I intend to tackle the charters of Humphrey’s son Robert (#3 above) next:

[A] Gilbert fitz Richard de Clare and his wife (c 1105-17) – grant to monks of Lewes 20s from toll of Tonbridge, Kent. Witnesses are: “Waltero fratre eiusdem Gilberti, et Girardo capellano, et Guncellino Gosmari filio, Humfrido fratre eius, Picoto et Willelmo fratre eius, Engelranno de Abernun, Willelmo de Watevill, aliisque quampluribus; et decetero sunt testes, Giraldus capellanus, Willelmo de Corton, Gilebertus frater eius, Eudo dapifer, Rodbertus pincerna.”
(Website – University of Toronto Libraries, DEEDS (Documents of Early England Data Set), Charter Number: 05520010 - https://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/05520010/gosm%2A)

[B] It appears that sometime after c 1110 a “Humphrey”, alongside Walter de Bec (near Llanfihangel) and Richard de la Mare, established a castle in Wales in Cletwr, Ceredigion. This castle was destroyed in c 1136 and rebuilt later in 1151 by Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd becoming known as Castell Hywel.
(‘A History of Wales’, Vol. II, (1912), by John Edward Lloyd, p. 427 and notes 86-87 - https://electricscotland.com/history/historyofwales02.pdf; Website - 'Castlefacts' - Castell Hywel, Llandysul - http://castlefacts.info/castledetails/castledetails3?uin=20139)

[C] The grant by Richard fitz Gilbert (c 1111-12) that I referenced in an earlier post regarding Humphrey’s knife. The only witness identified is Robertus capellanus.
('Cardigan Priory in the Olden Days', (1904), by Emily M. Pritchard, Appendix, p. 163, no. DXLVIII - https://archive.org/details/cardiganprioryin00prituoft/page/160/mode/2up)

[D] The foundation charter of St. Neot’s Priory (c 1113) by Rose wife of Richard fitz Gilbert with the consent of Gilbert her son and his brothers. Witnesses are: “William Giffard (Gyffart), Bp. Of Winchester; (Gilbert’s) brothers, Roger, Walter, and Robert; Eudo Dapifer and Rose his wife; Odo de Dammartin (Domino Martino); William de Watevile; Ingram de Abernon; Walter de Bec; William de Corton; Guncelin (Gonzelino) son of Goismer and Humphrey his brother; Robert Pecche; Arnold (Ernaldo) de Nazandas; Oilard de Balloil; Maurice de Cassel. Confirmed by Henry I with his own hand. Signa; The King; William his son; the Queen; Ralph Bp. of Rochester; Earl David; Manasser Count of Guines (Wisnes); Gilbert son of Richard; Walter son of Richard; Ranulf the chancellor; Robert the King’s son; William de Aubigny (Albineo), butler; Nigel de Aubigny; William de Tancarville (Tancartvilla); Hamo of Canterbury, dapifer, William Peverel of Dover; Geoffrey fitz Payn; Geoffrey Ridel; Baldwin de Bollers; Grimbald the leech (medici); Richard Earl of Chester.”
('Regesta Regum Anglo-Normannorum 1066-1154', Volume II, Regesta Henrici Primi 1100-1135, (1956), edited by Charles Johnson and H. A. Cronne, nos. 1015a, 1874 - https://ia802606.us.archive.org/9/items/regestaregumangl02grea/regestaregumangl02grea.pdf; ‘The History and Antiquities of Eynesbury and St. Noet’s, in Huntingdonshire’, Volume I, (1824), by George Cornelius Gorham, Supplemental Account, Foundation Charter of St. Noet’s Priory, pp. civ-cvi - https://books.google.ca/books?redir_esc=y&id=lRUHAAAAQAAJ&q=Filius+goismerii#v=snippet&q=Filius%20goismerii&f=false)

[E] Grant and confirmation by Robert, son of Martin, to the monks of Tiron and the monastery of St Mary at St Dogmael’s of the church of St Dogmaels (September 10, 1121). In the presence of “Bishop Bernard, William abbot of Tiron, Richard son of Gilbert, Humphrey son of Gosmer, Stephen, the kings Dapifer, Alured of Bennervill, attested the charter. Witnesses; king Henry, queen Matilda, Robert Bernard, Matilda, Richard son of Gilbert, Stephen, Alured, Humphrey.”
(Website - 'Jottings and Historical Records with Index on the History of South Pembrokeshire', Vol. 1, 1083-1389, (1993), compiled by B. H. J. Hughes, pp. 5-6 - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/0/items/JottingsAndHistoricalRecordsWithIndexOnTheHistoryOfSouth/Book-386Vol1.pdf; 'Regesta Regum Anglo-Normannorum 1066-1154', Volume II, Regesta Henrici Primi 1100-1135, (1956), edited by Charles Johnson and H. A. Cronne, nos. 1015a, 1874 - https://ia802606.us.archive.org/9/items/regestaregumangl02grea/regestaregumangl02grea.pdf)

[F] Confirmation by Richard fitz Gilbert to the monks of Stoke by Clare in free alms of various churches held of his predecessors – Crimplesham, Cavenham, Gazeley, Hundon, Clare, Great Bardfield, Ashen and Bures. At the petition of his barons, knights and free men he confirmed all tithes and alms they gave, etc. (1124-36). Witnesses are: “Adam dapifero et Hunfrido filio Goismeri et aliis.”
('Stoke by Clare Cartulary', (1982), ed. by Christopher Harper-Bill & Richard Mortimer, Vol. 1, p. 30, no. 39)

[G] Confirmation by Gilbert lord of Clare of various grants including by Goismer of 2/3 of his tithes at Chipley and many others. (c 1136-41 but possibly shortly before 1117). Witnesses are: “Humfridus fillius Goismeri, Adam Filius Warini, Albricus de Capeles et alii.”
('Stoke by Clare Cartulary', (1982), ed. by Christopher Harper-Bill & Richard Mortimer, Vol. 1, p. 16, no. 22)

[H] Confirmation charter of Theobald archbishop of Canterbury, reciting the charters of the founder and his successors and of other donors. These include: (1) No. v – Gilbert fitz Richard also gave the right to fish one day a year in his fishpond at Cavenham. (1090-1117) Witnesses are: “Hunfridus filius Goismeri, Adam filius Warini, Galfridus filius Hamonis, Radulfus de la Cressunere, Albricus de Capell’, Gilbertus filius Rainaldi”; (2) No. viii - that Solomon should hold of the monks all the land granted to him by Gilbert as freely and as honourably as he had held it of his father. (1114-36) Witnesses are: “Waltero et Roberto filiis Ricardi, Alberico de Ver, Hunfrido filio Goismeri, Alveredo de Bennewilla, Adam filius Uuarini, Alberico de Capell”; (3) No. xxi - Herluin son of Goismer gave a rent of ten shillings from Wlric Smucle at Fenstead, for the soul of his son Gilbert and with the consent of the lord Gilbert and Richard his son. Witnesses are: Ricardus filius Hermeri, Radulfus de la Cresunere, Willelmus de Watevilla, Gunzel’ filius Goismeri, Hunfridus frater eius, Radulfus filius Hurandi, Ricardus filius Algeri, Elinaudus vicecomes, Robertus de Sethune, Robertus filius Hugonis”; (4) No. xxxii - Godfrey son of Elinald, on his deathbed, gave a rent of twelve pence from a serf called Uthred at Stoke. (Early twelfth century). Witnesses are: “Hunfridus filius Goismeri, Albericus de Capell’”; and (5) No. xliii - William Pecche gave all his land in Gestingthorp. (Early twelfth century). Witnesses are: “Hunfredus filius Goismeri, Robertus de Uuanceio et alii multi.”
('Stoke by Clare Cartulary', (1982), ed. by Christopher Harper-Bill & Richard Mortimer, Vol. 1, no. 137, pp. 117-20)

[I] Confirmation by Geoffrey son of Geoffrey of the grant to the priory by his father for Adam his brother, of all their tithes in Finchingfield and the mill of Waldingfield, etc. (mid-twelfth century). Witnesses are: “Adam filius Warini, Hunfridus filius Goismeri, Hamo Pecc(atu)m et alii.”
('Stoke by Clare Cartulary', (1982), ed. by Christopher Harper-Bill & Richard Mortimer, Vol. 2, no. 637, pp. 409-10)

Cheers,

Pete
Peter Stewart
2021-04-25 21:48:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
(* = speculative)
• Humphrey
• Herluin - sons – Gilbert (predeceased his father) and Geoffrey*
• Guncelin – sons – Conan*
• Alger – sons – Richard and Geoffrey*
• Walter –
• William –
• Ralph*
The identity of the sons’ wives remains unknown.
<snip>
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
[A] Gilbert fitz Richard de Clare and his wife (c 1105-17) – grant to monks of Lewes 20s from toll of Tonbridge, Kent. Witnesses are: “Waltero fratre eiusdem Gilberti, et Girardo capellano, et Guncellino Gosmari filio, Humfrido fratre eius, Picoto et Willelmo fratre eius, Engelranno de Abernun, Willelmo de Watevill, aliisque quampluribus; et decetero sunt testes, Giraldus capellanus, Willelmo de Corton, Gilebertus frater eius, Eudo dapifer, Rodbertus pincerna.”
(Website – University of Toronto Libraries, DEEDS (Documents of Early England Data Set), Charter Number: 05520010 - https://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/05520010/gosm%2A)
[B] It appears that sometime after c 1110 a “Humphrey”, alongside Walter de Bec (near Llanfihangel) and Richard de la Mare, established a castle in Wales in Cletwr, Ceredigion. This castle was destroyed in c 1136 and rebuilt later in 1151 by Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd becoming known as Castell Hywel.
(‘A History of Wales’, Vol. II, (1912), by John Edward Lloyd, p. 427 and notes 86-87 - https://electricscotland.com/history/historyofwales02.pdf; Website - 'Castlefacts' - Castell Hywel, Llandysul - http://castlefacts.info/castledetails/castledetails3?uin=20139)
[C] The grant by Richard fitz Gilbert (c 1111-12) that I referenced in an earlier post regarding Humphrey’s knife. The only witness identified is Robertus capellanus.
('Cardigan Priory in the Olden Days', (1904), by Emily M. Pritchard, Appendix, p. 163, no. DXLVIII - https://archive.org/details/cardiganprioryin00prituoft/page/160/mode/2up)
When you already have a plethora of material, it's useful to give some
context from this when asking for assistance regarding one particular
charter - the newsgroup does not come prepared with backgrounding to any
and every subject raised here.

In view of the other evidence you have gathered, it's hard to see why
you suspect there may have been a blood relationship between the Clares
and the fitz Goismers.

The Cardigan priory charter seen in the context you have now given only
suggests that Humphrey fitz Goismer had placed his own knife on the
altar at St Padarn before Richard fitz Gilbert laid his charter beside
it, in order for Humphrey to signify his participation (as Richard's
sub-tenant) in the gift.

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2021-04-25 23:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Peter,

Thanks again, and I appreciate the advice re posting. The majority of the material I acquired on this family was obtained post my inquiry regarding the "knife" charter. My intent was to try and review the material first so that I could present it in some kind of organized fashion. My thoughts regarding a possible blood relationship largely flow from the following:

1. The onomastics of the 3rd generation of the family, i.e. Humphrey' children, v Humphrey and his siblings.
2. The usually prominent placement in the witness lists of Clare family member charters together with, and occasionally prior to, established members of the Clare family.
3. Robert fitz Humphrey being a constable of both Gilbert and Roger de Clare.
4. The acquisition of property in Wales by the family alongside the Clares.

I also wondered whether the entry in the ‘Rotuli de Dominabus’ regarding Robert fitz Humphrey may assist in identifying his, presumably, maternal background: “Cecily of Bowthorpe is in the gift of the Lord King; she has had two husbands, Hugh de Scotcia and Eustace of Leyham … Reginald, her firstborn son and heir, is 24 years old; his father Eustace was of the family of the count of Meulan and a kinsman of Robert fitzHumphrey.” Although I do not immediately see how the count of Meulan connects with, if at all, the Clare family.

Ultimately, I don't have enough experience to know if the above is significant and reflects a possible familial relationship or simply the natural result of being a significant feudal tenant of the Clare family.

Cheers,

Pete
Peter G. M. Dale
2021-04-25 23:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Hi Peter,
1. The onomastics of the 3rd generation of the family, i.e. Humphrey' children, v Humphrey and his siblings.
2. The usually prominent placement in the witness lists of Clare family member charters together with, and occasionally prior to, established members of the Clare family.
3. Robert fitz Humphrey being a constable of both Gilbert and Roger de Clare.
4. The acquisition of property in Wales by the family alongside the Clares.
I also wondered whether the entry in the ‘Rotuli de Dominabus’ regarding Robert fitz Humphrey may assist in identifying his, presumably, maternal background: “Cecily of Bowthorpe is in the gift of the Lord King; she has had two husbands, Hugh de Scotcia and Eustace of Leyham … Reginald, her firstborn son and heir, is 24 years old; his father Eustace was of the family of the count of Meulan and a kinsman of Robert fitzHumphrey.” Although I do not immediately see how the count of Meulan connects with, if at all, the Clare family.
Ultimately, I don't have enough experience to know if the above is significant and reflects a possible familial relationship or simply the natural result of being a significant feudal tenant of the Clare family.
Cheers,
Pete
Hi Jason,

A belated thank you for the information. What you provided to me is consistent with what I've reviewed thus far except that I'm uncertain whether it is Humphrey or his son Robert who married the heir of Mabel to Bec. I note that I've not discovered any reference to Humphrey's wife (i.e. Margaret in your notes). Robert had a wife named Margaret, identified as such in charters no. 328 and 330 of the Stoke by Clare cartulary. However no further identification is provided.

Chronologically, Robert would better suit being the spouse of an heir of Mabel or, alternatively, even his son Stephen. I wonder whether it is possible that Humphrey married Mabel himself and the reference to "Stephen de Camoys" as her lord in her grant to Norwich Cathedral priory (c, apparently, 1149) - Title - Grant by Mabila, with assent of her sons, to church of Holy Trinity of 20s. annual rent from Harpley -- Date(s) - nd [mid 12th cent] (Creation) -- Scope and content - This charter made with assent of her lord Stephen de Chameis. Pressmark XXXIIR - (Norfolk Record Office - Ref. code - DCN 44/50/2) is to her grandson Stephen II de Camoys, rather than his purported grandfather Stephen I who was a contemporary of Humphrey fitz Goismer? I also have trouble reconciling the reference to Mabel's sons in this charter with the reference to Robert fitz Humphrey having custody of Mabel's heir in the Red Book of the Exchequer (Part 1, pp. 401-402 - https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.35112105152195&view=1up&seq=565). Does that mean that none of Mabel's sons had surviving children in order for a female to be her heir? Alternatively, is this misinterpreted and the Red Book reference is not to a female heir at all?

Cheers,

Pete
Peter Stewart
2021-04-25 23:50:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Hi Peter,
1. The onomastics of the 3rd generation of the family, i.e. Humphrey' children, v Humphrey and his siblings.
2. The usually prominent placement in the witness lists of Clare family member charters together with, and occasionally prior to, established members of the Clare family.
3. Robert fitz Humphrey being a constable of both Gilbert and Roger de Clare.
4. The acquisition of property in Wales by the family alongside the Clares.
I also wondered whether the entry in the ‘Rotuli de Dominabus’ regarding Robert fitz Humphrey may assist in identifying his, presumably, maternal background: “Cecily of Bowthorpe is in the gift of the Lord King; she has had two husbands, Hugh de Scotcia and Eustace of Leyham … Reginald, her firstborn son and heir, is 24 years old; his father Eustace was of the family of the count of Meulan and a kinsman of Robert fitzHumphrey.” Although I do not immediately see how the count of Meulan connects with, if at all, the Clare family.
Richard fitz Gilbert's brother Gilbert, 1st earl of Pembroke, married
Isabel daughter of Robert de Beaumont, count of Meulan & earl of
Leicester by Isabelle of Vermandois. I don't know who Eustace of Leyham
was - this name does not occur in the agnatic Beaumont family as far as
I'm aware.

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2021-08-10 05:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Greetings,

I’m belatedly following-up on the correspondence in this thread. By way of a brief refresher, I’m trying to determine if there is any blood relationship between Goismer and his descendants, including his son Humphrey fitz Goismer and grandson Robert fitz Humphrey, and the Clare family. I set out earlier evidence which corroborates a relationship – but not necessarily a blood one. If there was a blood relationship, it most likely, from a chronological perspective, would have been Goismer marrying a Clare or Gifford daughter. In summary the arguments in favour of a close relationship are as follows:

[1] The onomastics of the family.

[2] The usually prominent placement in the witness lists of Clare family member charters together with established members of the Clare family including, for example, (i) the presence of brothers Guncelin and Humphrey (in that order) in a grant by Gilbert fitz Richard and his wife Rohese Gifford of 20s in Tonbridge c 1105-1117 (https://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/05520010/gosm%2A) where Guncelin and Humphrey witness 3rd and 4th after Gilbert’s brother Walter and Girardo the chaplain and the foundation charter of St. Neot’s Priory by Richard and Rohese c 1113 (https://books.google.ca/books?redir_esc=y&id=lRUHAAAAQAAJ&q=Filius+goismerii#v=snippet&q=Filius%20goismerii&f=false ) and (ii) the grant by Robert son of Martin to the monks of Tiron of the church of St. Dogmael’s in 1121 (https://ia802606.us.archive.org/9/items/regestaregumangl02grea/regestaregumangl02grea.pdf) where Humphrey witnesses 4th after Bishop Bernard, William the abbot of Tiron and Richard fitz Gilbert and immediately before Stephen the king’s dapifer.

[3] Robert fitz Humphrey being a constable of both Gilbert and Roger de Clare.

[4] The acquisition of property in Wales by the family alongside the Clares.

With regard to item #1 above, my understanding of the family names is as follows:

[A] Goismer (b c 1050-1060) had at least six sons and possible a 7th:
(* = speculative)

• Alger – sons – Richard and Geoffrey*
• Guncelin – sons – Conan*
• Herluin - sons – Gilbert (predeceased his father) and Geoffrey*
• Humphrey
• Walter
• William
• Ralph*

The existence of any daughters and the identity of the sons’ wives remains unknown.

[B] Humphrey (b c 1080-1090) had at least 4 sons and possibly as many as 9:

• Roger
• Gilbert
• Robert (constable under earls Gilbert and Roger de Clare – sons Stephen II de Camoys, Walter de Camoys, Humphrey fitz Robert* - wife is Petronilla and Adam fitz Robert*
• Walter – son Humphrey fitz Walter (b c 1170) and grandson Walter fitz Humphrey (b c 1190-1200)
• Ralph* - wife is Liece and daughter Mabel married Roger Walensis
• Richard* - son Guncelin fitz Richard*
• Geoffrey*
• Reginald*
• William*

A few queries:

[I] Do the names of Goismer’s sons – Alger, Guncelin, Herluin, Humphrey, Walter, William and Ralph – shed any light on his possible background?

[II] Do the use of the names Geoffrey x3, Richard x2, Gilbert x2, Conan, Ralph, Reginald, Robert, Roger, Walter, and William by the sons of Goismer necessarily derive from ancestors/relatives or could they have been selected in honour of their superiors including members of the Clare family?

Cheers,

Pete
Peter G. M. Dale
2021-08-10 18:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Greetings, I recognize my post from earlier today was a bit lengthy. Thus, I've set out below my principal inquiries in the event anyone has commentary to provide. Much appreciated! Cheers, Pete

[I] Do the names of Goismer’s sons – Alger, Guncelin, Herluin, Humphrey, Walter, William and Ralph – shed any light on his possible background?

[II] Does the use of the names - Geoffrey x3, Richard x2, Gilbert x2, Conan, Ralph, Reginald, Robert, Roger, Walter, and William - by the sons of Goismer necessarily derive from ancestors/relatives or could they have been selected in honour of their superiors including members of the Clare family?

Cheers,

Pete
Peter Stewart
2021-08-10 22:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings, I recognize my post from earlier today was a bit lengthy. Thus, I've set out below my principal inquiries in the event anyone has commentary to provide. Much appreciated! Cheers, Pete
[I] Do the names of Goismer’s sons – Alger, Guncelin, Herluin, Humphrey, Walter, William and Ralph – shed any light on his possible background?
[II] Does the use of the names - Geoffrey x3, Richard x2, Gilbert x2, Conan, Ralph, Reginald, Robert, Roger, Walter, and William - by the sons of Goismer necessarily derive from ancestors/relatives or could they have been selected in honour of their superiors including members of the Clare family?
I'm afraid your questions can't be meaningfully answered. You are
basically asking "Was there a general rule for naming and did this apply
in a particular instance?"

The only sensible response is to say there was observable custom, not
fixed rule, and that without much more evidence than you present we have
no way of discerning how far custom was observed in any whole generation.

If an heir had the same name as his paternal grandfather and a second
son the same name as his maternal grandfather, we can suppose that this
was from familial piety rather than coincidence. But even then we may be
deluding ourselves in a specific case.

The same limited stock of names was spread from the top to the bottom of
the social hierarchy. Serfs belonging to abbeys demonstrably used the
same names as lords who were - as laymen - not their direct superiors in
a feudal sense. Medieval people favoured names and found them auspicious
for reasons that we can only guess at. Their modern descendants still do.

Peter Stewart

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